Document X7xx0Q5beDXLaR26gk3RkLkYK

ORIGINAL IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY IN RE: PAOLI RAILROAD YARD ) PC B LITIGATION, ) ) ) ) MASTER FILE ) NO. 90-0609-C-6 DEPOSITION OF R. EMMET KELLY, M.D. DECEMBER 11, 1990 GORE REPORTING COMPANY 408 OLIVE STREET ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 241-6750 WATER PCB-00048312 1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 2 PHILADELPHIA COUNTY 3 4 5 IN RE: PAOLI RAILROAD YARD 6 PCB LITIGATION, ) 7) 8 ) MASTER FILE 9 ) NO . 10 1 1 Deposition of R. EMMET KELLY, 1 2 M.D., taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 13 theoffices of Brown, James & Rabbitt, 705 1 4 Olive Street, in the City, of St. Louis, 1 5 State of Missouri, on the 11th day of 1 6 December, 1990 before Ronald A. Gore, 1 7 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 1 8 Public. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-00048313 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 Mr. Arnold E. Cohen 5 Klehr, Harrison, Harvey, 6 Branzburg & Ellers 7 1401 Walnut Street 8 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 9 19 10 2 10 1 1 Mr. Joseph C. Kohn 1 2 Kohn, Savett, Klein & Graf 1 3 2400 One Reading Center 1 4 1101 Market Street 1 5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1 6 19 10 7 1 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO 1 8 COMPANY: 1 9 Mr. Michael H. Malin 2 0 White & Williams 2 1 One Liberty Place 2 2 Suite 1800 2 3 1650 Market Street 2 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2 5 19103-7301 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 WATER PCB-00048314 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT GENERAL ELECTRIC 2 COMPANY : 3 Mr. Robert J. Shaughnessy 4 Willi ams & Connolly 5 Hill Building 6 839 Seventeenth Street, N,W. 7 Washington, D.C. 20006 8 FOR THE DEFENDANT THE BUDD 9 COMPANY : 1 0 Mr. R. Thomas McLaughlin 1 1 Kelly, McLaughlin & Foster 1 2 1700 Atlantic Building 1 3 260 Broad Street 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1 5 19 10 2 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT AMTRAK: 1 7 Ms. Suzanne H. Gross 1 8 Margolis, Edelstein, 1 9 Scherlis, Sarowitz & Kraemer 2 0 The Curtis Center 2 1 Fourth Floor 2 2 Independence Square West 2 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2 4 19106-3304 2 5 FOR THE DEFENDANT CONSOLIDATED GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 4 WATER PCB-00048315 1 RAIL: 2 Ms. Mary C. Smith 3 Pepper, Hamilton & Scheetz 4 3000 Two Logan Square 5 18th and Arch Street 6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 7 19 10 9 8 FOR THE DEFENDANTS SOUTHEASTERN 9 PENNSYLVANIA TRANSPORTATION 1 0 AUTHORITY AND THE PENN CENTRAL 1 1 CORPORATION: 1 2 Mr. Roger F . Cox 1 3 Blank, Rome, Comisky & 1 4 McCauley 1 5 1200 Four Penn Center Plaza 1 6 Philadelph i a , Pennsylvania 1 7 19 10 3 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 WATER PCB-00048316 1 INDEX 2 3 Examination by Mr. Cohen 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Kelly Exhibit 1 9 Kelly Exhibit 2 1 0 Kelly Exhibit 3 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 4 21 22 23 24 25 PAGE 7 25 7 268 27 4 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER PCB-00048317 1 R . EMMET KELLY, M.D. 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to-wit : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, I'd like 1 1 to give you a copy of Dr. Kelly's 1 2 curriculum vitae, it may help conserve the 1 3 preliminary matters. 1 4 MR. COHEN: Let the record 1 5 reflect I've been handed a document styled 1 6 curriculum vitae for R. Emmet Kelly, M.D.. 1 7 It's 10:04, in whatever time zone we're 1 8 presently located, this is the first time 1 9 I've been given this document, perhaps if 2 0 it would have been given somewhat in 2 1 advance of the deposition, it might have 2 2 saved time. Under these circumstances, is 2 3 there any problem regarding the 2 4 availability of the witness, Mr. Malin, 2 5 during the course of the day, any time GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER PCB-00048318 1 restrictions or anything like that? 2 MR. MALIN: I'd just like to put 3 o n the record, yes, Dr. Kelly is 81 years 4 0 f age, and he has a tendency to get 5 s o mewhat tired, and that tiredness is not 6 go od for him, so we may be restricted to a 7 f i ve or six hour deposition, it's going to 8 d e pend on how Dr. Kelly feels. But we 9 d o n't want to get Dr. Kelly tired. He will 1 0 1 e t us know, we'll be able to ascertain 1 1 t h at. Is that correct. Dr. Kelly? 1 2 A. That's correct. 13 MR. COHEN: Certainly, Doctor, in 1 4 d e ference to whatever your own personal 1 5 c i rcumstances are, please indicate to Mr. 1 6 M a lin at any time you'd like to stop the 1 7 pr oceedings, whether on a temporary basis 1 8 o r suspend the proceedings for the day, 1 9 w e 'll certainly do everything we can to 2 0 h o nor your request. 2 1 A. Thank you. 2 2 Mr. Me Laughlin: Just off the 2 3 r e cord. 24 MR. COHEN: Just one second. I 25 d o ,however, understand. Doctor, that in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 WATER PCB-00048319 1 the event that we suspend these proceedings 2 pr ior to their conclusion today, that you 3 w i 11 be a v ailable to c o n t i n ue tomorr o w ? 4 A . Yes, that's c o r r e c t . 5 MR . COHEN: Tha n k you sir. 6 (Discussion off the record ) 7 MR . MALIN : S t i pu lations? 8 MR. COHEN: W h a t stipulati o n s do 9 y o u want? 1 0 MR . MALIN : I ' d 1 ike the w i t n e s s 1 1 t o sign t h e deposition. 1 2 MR. COHEN: Rea d and sign? 13 MR. M ALIN : Rea d and sign. Waive 1 4 a 1 1 object ions except a s t o the form of the 15 qu e s t i o n s , and privil e g e d This is a 1 6 d i scovery deposition. n e v e r waive 1 7 pr i v i 1 e g e . 1 8 MR. COHEN: Do y o u want to tell 1 9 m e what pr ivilege you ' r e n o t waiving , so, 2 0 i f you rai s e the -- 2 1 MR. M ALIN : N e v e r waive 22 pr i v i 1 e g e . All objec t i o n s except as to the 2 3 form of th e question w a i v e d , all pri v i 1 e g e s 2 4 will be re served. 2 5 (Discussion off the record ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 WATER PCB-00048320 1 MR. COHEN: Dr. Kelly, I have 2 this document in front of me that is styled 3 curriculum vitae. Is it fair to say that 4 the address reflected on that document. 5 which is 665 South 6 is your address? 7 A . That is c 8 Q And that' 9 A . Boulevard 1 0 Q And that 1 1 Louis? 1 2 A . That's co 1 3 Q And that 1 4 res i d e ? 1 5 A . That is c 1 6 Q I gather. 1 7 occasion to give de 1 8 A . Yes, I have. 1 9 Q. You are familiar with the 2 0 proceedings here today? 2 1 A. Yes, I am. 2 2 Q . Do you require any explanation of 2 3 the proceedings here today? 2 4 A. No, I do not. 2 5 Q. Doctor, in the course of these GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 WATER PCB-00048321 1 proceedings, I am going to assume that 2 every question you answer was a question 3 that you both heard and understood; is that 4 fair with you. agreeable to you? 5 A . That is correc t . 6 Q And in the eve nt I do ask you a 7 question and I misuse a technical term, 8 that you understand that I have misused, I 9 am a layman, of course, you will indicate 1 0 to me that you understand that I have 1 1 misused that term; will you do that? 1 2 A. Yes, I will. 1 3 Q. Your date of birth isNovember 1 4 14, 1909? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q. And you were born in the city of 1 7 St. Louis? 1 8 A. Yes, sir. 1 9 Q. And have you resided here your 2 0 entire life? 2 1 A. With the exception of three and a 2 2 half years in the service. 23 Q. And that information is also 2 4 reflected here on your curriculum vitae? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER PCB-00048322 1 Q. You are licensed as a medical 2 doctor? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q . Are you presently licensed? 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q How long have you been licens 7 A . Sine e 1932. 8 Q Has that license ever been 9 suspended or r evoked in any way? 1 0 A . No , it has not. 1 1 Q . Are you licensed in any other 1 2 jurisdict ions other than the State of 1 3 Illinois? 1 4 A. And Missouri. 1 5 Q. I'm sorry. You're right, 1 6 Missouri and Illinois? 1 7 A. Correct. 1 8 Q. Any others? 1 9 A. I have been in Arizona, but I 2 0 droppedthat. 2 1 Q. How long ago? 2 2 A. Ten years. 2 3 Q. Personal reasons for dropping it? 2 4 A. Well, it was personal because I 2 5 wanted to get a license in a sun belt GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER PCB-00048323 1 country. 2 Q State? 3 A . State. And not -- having had 4 coronary a t that time. I decided I didn 5 need one i n A r i z o n a , s o I dropped it. 6 Q . Have you ever applied for 7 reinstatement of that licensure in Arizona? 8 A . No , I have not. 9 Q . How is your health tod ay, sir; 1 0 are you feelin g well? 1 1 A . Yes. Thank you. 1 2 Q . Are you under any medi cations or 1 3 anything like that that affects your 1 4 ability to understand and respond to these 1 5 proceedings today? 1 6 A . No, sir. 1 7 Q. We had a statement earlier that 1 8 in the event that you become tired and 1 9 would like to take a break or stop for the 2 0 day, you'll indicate that information to 2 1 us? 2 2 A. Yes. Thank you. 2 3 Q. Are you presently employed? 2 4 A. I am self-employed. 2 5 Q. In what capacity, sir? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER PCB-00048324 1 A . As a physician. I am also 2 employed as a consultant to the 3 Barnes-Sutter Health Service. 4 Q. That's B-a-r-n-e-s? 5 A. That is correct. S-u-t-t-e-r . 6 Q. Health -- 7 A. Service. 8 Q. And what is the business of the 9 Barnes-Sutter Health Service? 1 0 A. It isa clinic that handles 1 1 mostly occupational and some 1 2 non-occupat i ona 1 conditions. 1 3 Q. Where is Barnes-Sutter Health 1 4 Service located? 1 5 A. 801 Locust, St. Louis, Missouri. 1 6 Q. How long have you been associated 1 7 as a consultant with Barnes-Sutter Health 1 8 Service? 1 9 A. Since 1975. 2 0 Q. Did you have any prior 2 1 relationship as a consultant, an employee 2 2 or otherwise with the Barnes-Sutter Health 2 3 Service prior to 1975? 2 4 A. 1970 what? 2 5 Q . '5. Isn't that when you said you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 WATER PCB-00048325 1 started with them? 2 A . W h e n you say prior r e 1 a t i o n s h i p , 3 I knew who t h e y we r e , they k n e w w h o I was. 4 but I did not have any f i n a n c i a 1 o r 5 professional assoc i a t i on with them 6 Q . You did not provide any 7 professional s e r v i c e s , w h e t h e r as a 8 consultant or o t h e r w i s e , for that 9 organization? 1 0 A . For that t i m e , no. sir. 1 1 Q Is there any c o n n e c t i o n , to your 1 2 knowledge, be tween the Barnes - S u 11 er Health 1 3 Service and a ny party a s s o c i a ted w it h this 1 4 litigation? 1 5 A. Conceivably, they may see an 1 6 occasional case from Monsanto as an 1 7 injury. Conceivably, I'm not sure. 1 8 Q. When you say conceivably, would 1 9 that be strictly on a fee for service 2 0 basis? 2 1 A. Yes, that is correct. 22 Q. So, there is no actual ownership 23 or equity or other relationship other than 2 4 a potential fee for service arrangement, 25 that you're aware of? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER PCB-00048326 1 A. That is correct. Barnes-Sutter 2 Health Service is completely owned by 3 Barnes Hospital, which is the teaching 4 facility at Washington University Medical 5 School in St. Louis. 6 Q Any r e 1 a t i o n s h i p between e i t h e r 7 the Barne s H o s Pi t a 1 and an y of the part i e s 8 to this 1 i t i g a t i o n , or the medical s c h o o 1 9 that you just r e f e r red to and any party t 0 1 0 this litigation, to your knowledge? 1 1 A. It may be that some Monsanto 1 2 executive may be on the board of trustees 13 of Barnes Hospital, I do not know. But 1 4 that might very well happen. I know they're 1 5 on the board of trustees of Washington 16 University. 1 7 Q Do you know w h i c 1 8 t i c u lar are on the boar 1 9 University? 2 0 A. No. I'm not completely certain 2 1 if one is, but there usually is somebody 22 from Monsanto. After all, they're both 23 relatively large institutions in St. Louis 24 Q. Now, you are also in the private 25 practice of medicine? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU IS , MISSOURI 16 WATER PCB-00048327 1 A . Not in the sense that's usually 2 referred to as a p r i vate practice. I s e e 3 an occasi o n a 1 case that may have some 4 occupatio n a 1 c o n n e c t ion, such as, doe s t h i 5 man suffe r fro m lead poisoning, does t h i s 6 man have s u f f i c i e n t heart disease tha t h e 7 cannot wo r k , i n that capacity. Not t o o 8 frequent. I a Iso do some examination s for 9 -- in leg a 1 c a s e s . 1 0 Q - So, you do some consulting i n a 1 1 forensic conte x t ? 1 2 A . That is co rrect. 1 3 Q And you a 1 so occasionally s e e a 1 4 patient o n a r eferra 1 basis? 1 5 A . That is co rrect . 1 6 Q And is t h a t referral from o t h e r 1 7 phys ician s , he a 11 h c are providers? 1 8 A . Yes, sir. 1 9 Q Any other circumstance that Y o u 2 0 would see that i n d i v idual, other than f r o m 2 1 a health care provid er or in a forens i c 2 2 setting? 2 3 A . Nell , i f Y ou consider 2 4 Barnes-Su tter , I see an occasional ca s e 2 5 from them. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 17 WATER PCB-00048328 1 Q. Do you provide any consulting 2 services in any way as a professional, as a 3 medical doctor, on behalf of any party to 4 this litigation? 5 A. Any parties to this litigation? 6 Q. Yes. In other words, does, for 7 example, Monsanto ever refer someone to you 8 for an evaluation of an occupational or 9 non-occupat i ona 1 ailment? 1 0 A. They do not refer individuals to 1 1 me. They refer cases similar to this, they 12 ask my opinion in cases like this. I've 1 3 given depositions on -- at the behest of 1 4 Monsanto in previous cases. 1 5 Q. In other words, you're saying 1 6 that you have been called upon from time to 1 7 time to provide services as a witness and 1 8 testify either on behalf of Monsanto or at 1 9 the request of Monsanto in litigation? 2 0 A. Well, certainly not on behalf. I 2 1 just testify as to the facts and my 2 2 opinion, medical opinion in the case. 23 Q. So, you have also acted as an 2 4 expert witness regarding allegations of 2 5 injury in an occupational setting in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER PCB-00048329 1 connection with employees who are making 2 claim against Monsanto, is that fair to 3 say? 4 A . Employees of whom? 5 Q . Monsanto. 6 A . No, I have not. They have not 7 M o n s anto employees. 8 Q In what context, then. would 9 Monsanto be asking you to provide 10 consulting and testimonialservices as a 1 1 witness? 1 2 A. Well, they would have to ask me 1 3 -- they would ask me what Monsanto's 1 4 experience has been in the absence of 1 5 illness in workers who are -- have worked, 1 6 manufactured or used a particular product, 1 7 in which allegations of harm were alleged, 1 8 they would ask me what my opinion was, 1 9 whether or not these allegations were, in 2 0 my opinion, medically sound. 2 1 Q. Who would ask you that, sir, 2 2 Monsanto or their representatives? 23 A. Monsanto's representatives, yes. 2 4 sir. 25 Q. So, they would ask you to do an GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 19 WATER PCB-00048330 1 evaluation as to whether any individual who 2 was making a claim against Monsanto could. 3 i n your o p i n i o n , h a ve a valid cla i m ? 4 A . T h a t is c o r r e c t . 5 Q And how d o you provide t h e s 6 s e r v i c e s ; the y s e n d you documents and 7 f o r your r e v i e w ? 8 A . Yes . 0 r I consult with one 9 their legal staff. 1 0 Q . Have theeyy asked you to provide 1 1 such serv ices in tthhis litigation, that is, 1 2 the Paoli rail yard CB litigation? 1 3 A . You mean concerning the -- they 1 4 v e not asked me t o -- they have not 1 5 own m e any m e d i c a 1 records in th i s case. 1 6 e y have not ask e d me, as far as up t o 1 7 now, for my opinion, whether there is any 1 8 validity to the plaintiff's claims. In 1 9 fact, I don't know what the plaintiff's 2 0 claims are. 2 1 Q. So, in other words, in other 2 2 contexts you are actually asked to make an 2 3 assessment of an individual's claim, in 2 4 this context you have not been so asked? 25 A . I have not been asked, no, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-00048331 1 Q. In other cases you have been 2 asked to make an evaluation of the 3 individual's claim, and then you provide 4 services as an expert witness, is that fair 5 to say? 6 A. That i. s correct. 7 Q. So, in other words, they use your 8 services similarly to your offering 9 services as a consultant in a forensic 1 0 context for others? 1 1 A. That is correct. But sometimes, 1 2 also, I have been asked just as a fact 1 3 witness to explain Monsanto's medical 1 4 program, vis-a-vis the employees who 1 5 manufacture a particular product. 1 6 Q. Now, this rendering of services 1 7 as a consultant in a forensic context, 1 8 whether for Monsanto or otherwise, did that 1 9 experience of yours pre-date your 2 0 termination of employment with Monsanto? 2 1 A . I don't think it did. I can't 2 2 -- I left Monsanto December 1, 1974, and I 2 3 cannot think of any cases, with the 2 4 exception of workmen's compensation cases 2 5 and injuries, or something of that sort. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 21 WATER PCB-00048332 1 that I have been called upon to give 2 serv ices in the forensic manner . 3 Cert a i n 1 y , I w o u1d -- as medical dir ector 4 I wo u1d have b e e n asked what should w e d o 5 with this p e r s o n. I'd s ay let's get the 6 man treated. o r we'll a c cept this as a 7 comp ensation c a s e. That has occurre d. o f 8 c ourse . 9 Q Th a t occurred during your tenur 1 0 of e mploymen t w ith Monsa nto Company? 1 1 A . Th a t is correc t . 1 2 Q . Also, if I understand your answer 1 3 correctly, you also had occasion to 1 4 evaluate cases in the worker's compensation 1 5 ext prior t 0 De cember 1, 19 7 4 ? 1 6 A . That i s c orrect. 1 7 Q And y our consulting act ivities in 1 8 the forensic context, whether for Monsanto 1 9 or otherwise, are all subsequent t o * 2 0 December 1, 1974? 2 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 2 Q Can you tell me, order of 2 3 m a g n i t u d e , how many m a tters in which 2 4 have been a consultant in a forensic 2 5 context? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER PCB-00048333 1 A . To whom? 2 Q Anybody . 3 A . Anybody? 4 Q Anyone, includi ng Monsanto. 5 A . Less than 50, I would say. 6 Q . And that's from December 1, '74 7 through until we sit here in December of 8 1990? 9 A. That is correct. 1 0 Q. 16 years? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q And of t h o s e 5 0 o r less. can you 1 3 tell m e , how m any of those matters would 1 4 you have been acting at the behest o f 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A. Probably 40. 1 7 Q In every in stance where you were 1 8 acting at the behest of Monsanto, was that 1 9 as an exp ert for the defense? 2 0 A . Sometimes i t was just as a fact 2 1 witness . 2 2 Q. All right. Would it have been as 2 3 a fact witness for the defense? 2 4 A. Well, I don't know if I 2 5 understand your terms. I believe the facts GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER PCB-00048334 1 are both for the plainti ff and the 2 defendant. I just testi fied as to the 3 facts. I didn't testify for anyone. 4 Q I understand. Were you being 5 called a s a witness by M onsanto? 6 A . That, again, I don't know, 7 S o m e t i m e s I was subpoena e d by the 8 plaintiff . 9 Q. So, in the instances where you 1 0 were subpoenaed as a witness, you received 1 1 whatever the standard subpoena fee is in 1 2 the jurisdiction that was involved? 1 3 A. That's correct. 1 4 Q. When you were called by Monsanto, 1 5 were you paid for your appearance? 1 6 A. Yes, I was. 1 7 Q. And can you tell me on what basis 1 8 you were compensated, time or -- 1 9 A. Time. 2 0 Q. On what basis would you be 2 1 compensated for your time when Monsanto 2 2 called you? 2 3 A . You mean what was the fee? 24 Q What was the fee? I imagine it's 2 5 changed from time to time. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 WATER PCB-00048335 1 A. It's changed. I would say at 2 present it's $15 0 .00 an hour. 3 Q How a b o ut in 1975, for example? 4 A . I t was probably a h undred dollars 5 an hour. 6 Q. Now, would that be the same if 7 you were acting as a fact witness or an 8 expert witness? 9 A. No. I'm acting as a fact witness 1 0 for $35.00 a day. 1 1 Q. That's when you were subpoenaed? 1 2 A. I can't say that was when I was 1 3 subpoenaed or not. I mean, I testified as 1 4 a fact witness in a Monsanto case for seven 1 5 days, and it was $35.00 a day, and I don't 16 know whether I was subpoenaed or not. I 1 7 believe I was called on the behest of 1 8 Monsanto, I'm not certain. 1 9 Q. So, Monsanto offered you as a 2 0 witness and your compensation was merely 2 1 the statutory witness fee of $35.00 per 2 2 day? 2 3 A . That is correct. 2 4 Q What are your arrangements for 25 r can you tell me? ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 WATER PCB-00048336 1 A. Frankly, I don't know. I would 2 say that it was not -- it all depends on 3 what is happening as far as this deposition 4 is concerned, what questions you're going 5 to ask me. Are you going to ask me as an 6 expert, are you going to ask me as a fact 7 witness? I just don't know. 8 Q. If I ask you some opinion 9 questions and you offer your opinion in 1 0 response to those questions, your fee could 1 1 be a hundred and fifty dollars a hour? 1 2 A . Yes , that's certainly 1 3 Q . Who contacted you abou 1 4 here today? 1 5 A . Beg your pardon? 1 6 Q. Who contacted you about appearing 1 7 here today? 1 8 A. A paralegal at Monsanto, Miss 1 9 Josephine N i b 1 o c k 2 0 Q Now, M o n s a n t o h a s had 2 1 call upon you t o t e s t i f y i n case 2 2 claims aga i n s t t h e m a r i s i ng out 23 exposure t o PC B ' s b efore, i s t h a 2 4 A . That i s c orrect 2 5 Q I t h ink Y o u t e s t i f i e d GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-00048337 1 Scott case? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. A matter pending in Beaumont, 4 Texas? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How about in the Bloomington 7 cases? 8 A. I've given a deposition i. n the 9 Bloomington cases, I have not testified. 1 0 Q. In the Scott case you actually 1 1 appeared in court? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. In every one of those instances, 1 4 sir, has your compensation been paid by 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A. I'm trying to think. I mean. 1 7 some time there were five defendant s ' 1 8 1 a w y e r s , and I got paid by the def e n d a n t s 1 9 1 a w y e r s , and I don' t k n o w where th e 2 0 d e f e n d a n t s' lawyers got their mone y, but 2 1 I ' m sure they were paid by someone 2 2 Q Did you have t o seek the 2 3 a u t h o r i t y of Monsanto to testify i n any 2 4 i n s t a n c e where you were contacted by a 2 5 defendant's lawyer, for example? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 27 WATER PCB-00048338 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 of the question. If you think you 3 understand that question -- 4 A. Yes. He's asking me did I have 5 to ask Monsanto whether I could testify or 6 not. 7 MR . COHEN : Yes , sir. 8 A. I never had to ask Monsanto at 9 all. I was a private consult ant, and 1 0 Monsanto had no relationship with me 1 1 the exception that they were a client 1 2 Q In the Scott case, did you 1 3 testify as a private consultant or were you 1 4 asked to testify by Monsanto? 1 5 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 6 of that question, too. If you think you 1 7 understand that distinction -- 18 A. No, I don't. 1 9 MR. MALIN: Okay. 2 0 MR. COHEN: For whom were you 2 1 acting as a consultant when you acted as a 2 2 consultant? 2 3 A. In the Scott case? 2 4 Q. Yes. 2 5 A. For Monsanto. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER PCB-00048339 1 Q So, Monsanto arranged for 2 appearance, an d you testified ac cord 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q . And did they pay your fees 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q . And were they the fee rang 7 we discussed e arlier, somewhere b e t w 8 hundred and a hundred and fifty an h 9 A. I think it was a hundred and 1 0 fifty dollars an hour, yes. 1 1 Q. That was for all the time that 1 2 you spent offering testimony in that 1 3 litigation? 1 4 A. Yes, sir. 1 5 Q. Did they also pay you for your 1 6 time to prepare and consult, and that sort 1 7 of thing? 1 8 A . Yes, sir. 1 9 Q. And are they doing the same 2 0 t h i ng ; a re y o u unde r t h 2 1 arr a n gem e n t i n t h i s P a o 2 2 A . Ye s , s i r . 2 3 Q S o , e v e n thou 2 4 w h o ' s g o i n g t o Pa Y you , 2 5 h a V e app a r e n tly b e e n m a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-00048340 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q - How about the Bloomington case? 3 A . What about it? 4 Q Same arrangeme nts there? 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q Same as today. same as Scott? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q . Do you have co unsel representing 9 you today ? 1 0 A . Yes, I do. 1 1 Q Who is your co u n s e 1 ? 1 2 A . The gentleman to my right. 1 3 Q That ' s Mr. Mai in? 1 4 A . Mali n, yes, si r . 1 5 Q Who secured yo ur counsel? 1 6 A . Beg pardon? 1 7 Q Who secured yo ur counsel? 1 8 A . I did. 1 9 Q When did you d o that? 2 0 A . Yesterday. 2 1 Q How was the contact made; had you 2 2 heard of Mr. M a 1 i n from reading the 2 3 newspaper or s omething? 24 A. No . I met him a year ago or so 2 5 when we discus sed this i n a very GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER PCB-00048341 1 preliminary fashion. And when I met him 2 yesterday to talk over the details of this 3 particular deposition. I said I believe I 4 need coun s e 1 . 5 Q And Mr. Mali n agreed to provide 6 you with counsel? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q And did you enter into an 9 arrangement to compensate Mr. Malin for his 1 0 time? 1 1 A. Not as yet. 1 2 Q But you e x p e c t to be compen sating 1 3 M r . Mai in? 1 4 A . I expect - 1 5 Q Do you e x p e c t t o be compens a t i n g 1 6 Mr . Mai in for his servi c e s in represe n t i n g 1 7 you a s a witness. as d i s t i n guished fr o m his 1 8 represe ntation in this matt er of Mons a n t o ? 1 9 A . He may b e rec o m p e nsed by 2 0 Mon santo . 2 1 Q Well, wh at is you r expectat ion? 2 2 A . Well, I hope he w o u1d be 2 3 r e c o m p e nsed by Mon santo 2 4 Q Is that b e c a u s e y ou would 1 ike to 2 5 see him paid or be cause you would 1 i k e to GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T . LOUIS, MI S S 0 U R I WATER PCB-00048342 1 see him paid without you having t o pay him? 2 A. No, I just whichever is the 3 correct way to do it. 4 Q. Hell, I guess I'm trying to 5 understand, did you ente r into an agreemen t 6 with Mr. Malin regarding his compensation? 7 A . No , I have not 8 Q Did you d i s c u s s the subject of 9 this compensa t i o n at all ? 1 0 A . N o , I did not. 1 1 Q . S o , other than the discussion 1 2 that you just told u s a b out, that is, you 1 3 said I think I might nee d counsel, and Mr. 1 4 Malin agreed to be your counsel, was there 1 5 any other discussion wha tsoever regarding 1 6 this engagement of Mr. M alin as your 1 7 counsel? 1 8 A. None at all. 1 9 Q. Would it be fa ir to say that I 2 0 have just essentially re stated the e n t i 2 1 agreement between yourse If and Mr. Mali 2 2 for him to represent you as counsel? 2 3 A. Why don't you restate it? 2 4 Q. Why don't you read it back. 2 5 (The requested portion of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER PCB-00048343 1 record read by the reporter). 2 A . Yes, you have. 3 Q Thank you , sir. When you first 4 with Mr. M a 1 i n approximately a year 5 ago, was he holding himself out as counsel 6 for Monsanto? 7 A . Frankly, the d e tail s of that 8 meeting are rather dim i n m y mind., It was 9 more than a year ago, I believe. I'm not 1 0 sure whether it was two years ago or not. 1 1 We met at Monsanto, so I assumed that he 1 2 was Monsanto's legal representative for 1 3 defending them in this particular suit if 1 4 it ever came to fruition. 1 5 Q Now, when you met w i t h M r . M a 1 6 m o r e r e c e n 11 y , I believe you said i t w a 1 7 yes t e r d a y , what was it about the d i s c u s 1 8 that caused you to conclude you needed 1 9 legal counsel? 2 0 MR. MALIN: Okay. Answer the 2 1 question. 2 2 A. Will you repeat the question? 23 (The requested portion of the 2 4 record read by the reporter). 2 5 A. There was no discussion. I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 WATER PCB-00048344 1 decided if I'm going to sit down in a 2 conference room with ten or eleven lawyers, 3 I'd better have my own counsel. 4 Q. Now, when you testified on behalf 5 of Monsanto in the past, have you reached a 6 similar conclusion? 7 MR. MALIN: I object to the form a o f that question, i t ' s too broad , 9 n o n-specific. If yo u think you -- 1 0 MR. COHEN: Let's talk about, 11 then, the Scott litigation and the 1 2 Bloomington litigation. In those 1 3 litigations when you testified on behalf of 1 4 Monsanto, did you conclude that you needed 1 5 legal counsel? 1 6 A. If you say testified in court, I 17 did not I do n o t know whether I had 1 8 C 0 u n s e 1 a t the t i m e of the depos it i o n or 1 9 not . I d o not k n o w 2 0 Q. You do understand, sir, that 2 1 you're testifying here today under oath? 2 2 A . Yes , I know that. 2 3 Q S 0 that the distinction that 2 4 you're making bet ween testifying in court 2 5 and testifying in deposition, in both GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER PCB-00048345 1 instances I'm referring to them as 2 testimony. 3 A. All right, fine. Sometimes 4 people do not do that. But you are 5 referring to a deposition and a court 6 appearance as the same? 7 Q. I'm referring to it all as 8 testimony . 9 A. All as testimony? 1 0 Q. Yes. 1 1 A. Yes, sir. 1 2 Q. With thatclarification, sir, in 1 3 the past, have you concluded in those 1 4 litigations I was discussing, Scott and 1 5 Bloomington, have you concluded that you 1 6 needed counsel? 1 7 A. I do not recollect whether I did 1 8 in Scott or not. I do not believe I did in 1 9 Bloomington, I'm not sure. 2 0 Q. Let me ask you this, have you 2 1 ever had the occasion in connection with a 2 2 litigation where you were testifying on 2 3 behalf of Monsanto to actually go out and 2 4 seek and employ separate private counsel to 2 5 represent you at either a deposition or a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER PCB-00048346 1 hearing? 2 A . No, I have not. 3 Q To be clear, you have not done so 4 this ti me,either? 5 A . No, I have not. 6 Q Did Mr. Malin advise you as a 7 result of being your counsel that he could 8 object to questions that were put to you 9 and ins truct you not to answer those 1 0 q u e s t i o ns? 1 1 A. You have a double question there. 1 2 MR. MALIN: You're getting into 1 3 questions of privilege, I'm going to direct 1 4 the witness not to answer. 1 5 MR. COHEN: The privilege y 0 u 're 1 6 asserting is what, a11orney/c 1 ient 1 7 privilege? You're not going to tell me? 1 8 MR. MALIN: Attorney/c 1 ient 1 9 MR. COHEN: In the past, si r , you 2 0 told me that you had acted as a consu 1 t a n t 2 1 in forensic matters in approximately 5 0 2 2 occasions during the last 16 years, 2 3 approximately 40 times on behalf of 2 4 Monsanto. How about the other ten ti m e s , 2 5 were they for outside parties, unrela ted to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER PCB-00048347 1 Monsanto? 2 A . Ye s , t h ey w e r e . 3 Q . W i t h o u t g i v i n g me t h e n a m e s o f 4 the e n t i t i e s , d o Y o u k now t h e n a m e s o f the 5 e n t i t i e s for w h o m Y o u were a c o n s u 1 t a n t ? 6 A . Oh , Y e s 7 Q Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h o s e 8 entities were claimants or defendants? 9 A. In all but one they were 1 0 defendants. 1 1 Q. And in one instance you offered 1 2 testimony as an expert, or have consulted, 1 3 rather, as an expert on behalf of the 1 4 claimant? 1 5 A. Yes, I have. 1 6 Q. When was that episode? 1 7 A. Eight to ten years ago. 1 8 Q. Did you offer testimony? 1 9 A. Yes, I did. 2 0 Q. And, again, by testimony, sir, 2 1 either by deposition or at the time of some 2 2 hearing? 23 A. Yes, s i r . 2 4 Q. Do you recall what jurisdiction 25 that matter was -- in which jurisdiction GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 WATER PCB-00048348 1 that matter was? 2 A . Illinois. I do not know the 3 county. 4 Q State court. though? 5 A . State Court. 6 Q Do you recall the nature of the 7 claim that was made? 8 A. Yes. This man was an engineer for 9 a railroad, he was exposed to diesel fumes 1 0 in the round house of a railroad. 1 1 Q. And did you conclude that this 1 2 exposure to fumes had caused h i m some harm? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q Do you recall, did I a s k you i f 1 5 you recal led the name of the 1 i t i g a n t o n 1 6 whose beh a 1 f you were acting? 1 7 A. No, I do not. 1 8 Q The other nine or so in s t a 1 9 here you have appeared as a consult 2 0 e h a 1f of defendants, were they all 2 1 nvolving testimony? 22 A. Yes, sir. Well, defendants ? 2 3 'll have to make a correction, then. 2 4 e c a u s e I have been involved in cases for 2 5 - that were sent me by a plaintiff, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER PCB-00048349 1 said I do not believe that there is any 2 v a 1 idity to this claim, if that is 3 t e s timony. There was no deposition in that 4 c a s e, I was dropped. 5 Q. What I'm referring to, sir, are 6 not instances where you were consulted but 7 did not testify, but, rather, simply 8 ins tances where you were consulted and did 9 t e s tify, whether that testimony was offered 1 0 by the vehicle of a deposition or in a 1 1 h e a ring of some sort. Do you understand? 12 A. I don't follow the question. I 1 3 ra e a n, I understand the parameters of your 1 4 q u e stion, but what is the question? 1 5 Q. I was just making the parameters 1 6 c 1 e ar for you. Going back -- once we 1 7 u n d erstand the ground rules here, going 1 8 b a c k, I'm asking you whether, in those nine 1 9 o r o instances you were called upon t o 2 0 t e s ify, and, if so, how many of t h o s e 2 1 ins a n c e s ? 2 2 A. Probably six or seven. 23 Q. Do you recall the style or the 2 4 caption of the matters in those six or 2 5 seven cases where you were called upon to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-00048350 1 testify? 2 A. I don't know what you mean by the 3 style or the matter. What -- 4 Q Well , this i s called In R e P a o 1 i 5 Yard PC B litigati o n . 6 M R . MAL IN : Who versus who? 7 M R . COHEN : See, that's why you 8 hire a good attorney, he makes things so 9 good. 1 0 A. What was the question, again? 1 1 Q. Do you remember the names of what 1 2 those cases were, who versus whom? 1 3 A. There were Kracht versus Illinois 1 4 Central, K-r-a-c-h-t. Gallatin, 1 5 G-a-l-l-a-t-i-n, versus Illinois Central. 1 6 Those are the only two names involved in 1 7 the litigation that I know of -- that I 1 8 remember . 1 9 Q. But in the matters -- and I 2 0 understand you've identified four for us. 2 1 is that right? 2 2 A . No, that's two. 23 Q Three were Kracht . I thought you 2 4 said three were Kracht. One was Kracht? 2 5 A. One was Kracht, one was Gallatin. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-00048351 1 Q In the 2 recall. the party 3 was the Illinois 4 right? 5 A . That is 6 Q Did any 7 exposure or alleged exposure to PCB's? 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 Q. And do you recall the courts in 1 0 which those matters were pending? 1 1 A. I thought it was the State Court 12 in Illinois. I only gave depositions, I 1 3 did not testify in a trial. 1 4 Q. Do you have copies of those 1 5 depositions? 1 6 A. Frankly, I don't know. 1 7 Q Let m e a s k Y o u this. d o you 1 8 main tain f i 1 e s i n t h e 5 0 or so for e n s i c 1 9 matt e r s in w h i c h Y o u ' V e - 2 0 A. I do, but not in perpetuity. I 2 1 mean, after one or two years I throw them 2 2 out. 2 3 Q Do y o u have any of the file 2 4 a i n i n g to the 5 0 or so c a s e s in w 2 5 were asked t o con suit? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-00048352 1 A. I probably have a dozen. They 2 still may be ongoing, though. 3 Q. Would those dozen files contain 4 copies of transcripts of your testimony in 5 the instances where you have testified? 6 A. They may and they may not. 7 Q. I'm going to ask you, sir, if you 8 will make a search of those files and 9 ascertain for us all matters in which you 1 0 have given a deposition and in which you 1 1 have -- I'm sorry, given testimony, 1 2 whether by deposition or a hearing, and to 1 3 identify for your counsel, Mr. Malin, those 1 4 matters in which you have located -- I'm 1 5 sorry, in those matters which you have 1 6 identified where you have testified and 1 7 those matters in which a transcript of your 1 8 testimony is available. Will you do that 1 9 for me, sir? You need not do it today. 2 0 A. Thank you. Yes, I will. I will 2 1 look and tell my counsel. 2 2 Q. Good. And, counsel, we will make 2 3 a r equest at this time for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 2 4 o f the capti o n s o f all the matter s i n w h i c h 2 5 the witness has t e s t i f i e d , and co P i e s o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-00048353 1 all available transcripts of testimony i n 2 which he has testified as a consultant. In 3 the event that they're not available, 4 nonetheless, the indication that he has 5 t e s t i f i e d , but does n o t have the testimony 6 ava i 1ab 1e . Thank y o u . Now, in cases where 7 you act as a f o r e n s i c consul tant, do you 8 make it a practice to physically examine 9 the claimant? 1 0 A . Some c a ses, yes; some c a s e s , no. 1 1 Q Tell m e how you make the decision 1 2 whether you're go ing to examine o r not? 1 3 A. If they are sent to me for 1 4 examination and they want my medical 1 5 opinion as to the state of their health, I 1 6 examine them. 1 7 Q D o you feel that the inability to 1 8 examine them prevents you from rendering an 1 9 opinion in a case where you don 't have the 2 0 opportunity to examine them? 2 1 MR. M A L I N : Objection to the form 2 2 of the question. If you think you 2 3 understand that -- 2 4 MR. COHEN: If you don't 2 5 understand. I'll restate it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 WATER PCB-00048354 1 A. Better ask me again. 2 Q. Sure. You said in some cases 3 where the person is sent to you for 4 examination you do an examination. In 5 other cases, if the person is not sent to 6 you, do you, nonetheless, render an opinion 7 when you have not had the opportunity to 8 examine him? 9 A. Opinion as to what? 1 0 Q. Any opinion whatsoever regarding 1 1 the person's claim? 12 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of the question on the ground that it's 1 4 very vague as to what you're asking for in 1 5 the question. If you think you understand 1 6 it, you can answer. 1 7 A. I understand it. Icertainly 1 8 believe it's certainly vague. I mean, I'm 1 9 not sure whether he's referring to am I 2 0 giving an opinion as to the state of that 2 1 man's health. If that is the question, 2 2 that's one thing. If it's a question of 2 3 does the type of exposure this man alleges 2 4 give him this alleged medical condition, 25 that's a different question. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-00048355 1 Q Any other issues that you can 2 think of at this time? 3 A . Not at the present. I may think 4 of anothe r one or so. 5 Q Let's talk about state 0 f 6 health . Does it affect your abil 1 t y to 7 opine reg arding theindividual's state of 8 health, p resent state of health? 9 A . Not if I have -- 1 0 MR . MAL I N : Excuse m e . I'm going 1 1 to object t o the form o f the q u e s tion. 1 2 When you say does it. i s that , a 1 so, the 1 3 failure t o take a medical examina tion? 1 4 MR. COHEN: Yes. I thi n k that 1 5 you under stood that, didn't you. Doctor? 1 6 A . Yes. The fact that I h a v e not 1 7 examined a man does not affect my ability 1 8 to make a medical judgment if I h a v e an 1 9 adequate medical examination and records 2 0 from an u nbiased observer, unbias e d 2 1 phys ician 2 2 Q And the determination o f the 2 3 adequacy of those records, is tha t a 2 4 determina tion that you make yours elf on an 2 5 ad hoc b a sis? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 45 WATER PCB-00048356 1 A . That's correct . 2 Q. So, if you review the file, then, 3 and you see that there are medical records 4 in the file and you examine those records 5 and determine that those records are 6 adequate and from what you believe to be an 7 evaluation by an unbiased physician, you a can then pass an opinion on the state of 9 that individual's health? 1 0 A. Yes. But I'll add another 11 qualification. 1 2 Q . Please. 1 3 A. An unbiased qualified physician. 1 4 Q. All right. An unbiased qualified 1 5 physician? 1 6 A. Correct. 1 7 Q . So, that would -- again, the 1 8 determination of qualification would, 1 9 again, be something you would make on an ad 2 0 hoc basis? 2 1 A . That is co rrect, 2 2 Q Bias, I ga t h e r , is something that 2 3 would be information that you would receive 2 4 or determine, also, from a file? 2 5 A. I didn't hear -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-00048357 1 Q Potential bias of the examiner on 2 whose records you're relying? 3 A. Would be what? 4 Q. Something that you would 5 determine from the file itself, or would be 6 information that was given to you? 7 MR. M A LIN j I object to the form 8 o f the question. I think what h e 1' s as king 9 you i s how would y o u determine i f the exam 1 0 was biased or not. 1 1 MR. COHEN: Let's use your 1 2 counsel's question. He's doing a fine job 1 3 today. How would you determine the bias of 1 4 the examiner? 1 5 A. Well, if I found somebody who I 1 6 had records of on previous cases, had given 1 7 opinions based on medical nonsense, I would 1 8 come up to the belief that this man is 1 9 biased. 2 0 Q. It might also affect your opinion 2 1 of that person's qualifications, wouldn't 2 2 it? 2 3 A. No. He might have very good 2 4 qualifications . 2 5 Q. So, in other words, if you have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 WATER PCB-00048358 1 adequate medical records as you determine 2 it on an ad hoc basis, your inability to 3 physically examine the person involved, 4 nonetheless, does not prevent you from 5 passing an opinion as to that individual's 6 present state of health? 7 A . That is correct. 8 Q. How about the other issue that 9 you discussed, that is, does the claimed 1 0 exposure to such and such give rise to the 1 1 possibility of the claimed harm? Do you 1 2 recall that? You raised that as a second 13 issue. Does the lack ofphysical 1 4 examination affect your ability to render 1 5 an opinion on that issue? 16 A. If I have the same situation. If 1 7 I have medical information from an 1 8 unbiased, qualified individual, I will 1 9 accept those as medical facts that I might 2 0 have determined on my own examination. 2 1 Q. Now, that will tell you about the 2 2 person's physical condition, that medical 2 3 evidence? 2 4 A. Yes. 25 Q. That's notgoing to tell you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 WATER PCB-00048359 1 anything about whether the exposure causes 2 the claimed harm? 3 A. No. That isbased on 40 years of 4 experience with a particular chemical 5 involved. 6 Q. That, however, would not be 7 sufficient to allow you to pass an opinion 8 alone, would it, just the exposure? 9 A. Well, if there is -- yes, it 1 0 would. If there is adequate exposure, 1 1 there can be no disease attributable to 1 2 this exposure which -- 1 3 Q. Let's back up. My last question 1 4 was confusing, let's back up. You base 1 5 your opinion on this causative chain of 1 6 events based upon, one, your knowledge 1 7 accumulated over 40 years of how the 1 8 substance acts? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You would alsotake into 2 1 consideration other facts, however, with 2 2 respect to the individual's claim, is that 2 3 right? 2 4 A. Yes. 25 Q. What facts would you take into GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 WATER PCB-00048360 1 consideration with respect to that 2 individual in order to enable you 3 an opinion? 4 A. There are several facts that a 5 person has to have. 6 Q. Tell me ab out them? 7 A. First of a 11, is there any 8 scientific likelihoo d that this chemical 9 can give this man th e symptoms or illnesses 10 that he is claiming, In other words, if a 1 1 person is claiming d iabetes from exposure 1 2 to a particular chem ical, and there has 1 3 been no evidence in the medical literature 1 4 that diabetes is cau sed by anybody even 1 5 remotely connected t o this chemical, that 1 6 will be a fact that would enter into my 1 7 opinion. Number two , if the type of 1 8 exposure the person alleges is not at all 1 9 relevant to the dose that individuals are 2 0 exposed to and have no such illness, that 2 1 is also -- enters i nto my opinion, 2 2 Q. Then what you've referred to as 2 3 the dose that person s are exposed to, 2 4 you're referring to your knowledge, again, 2 5 of scientific litera ture as to what's been GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 50 WATER PCB-00048361 1 reported o n dose causing harm? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Okay. Anything else? 4 A. I may think of something el s e . 5 Q. Well, what other informatio n 6 would you want to have before you wou 1 d 7 make an opinion regarding that causal 8 chain, other than scientific likeliho 0 d 9 that the chemical can give the condit ion 1 0 claimed and the type of exposure as i t 1 1 compares to what the literature shows o n 1 2 dose relationship? 1 3 A. In my experience with indiv 1 d u a 1 s 1 4 that have been exposed to the materia 1 for 1 5 extensive circumstances where they're 1 6 having a greater exposure over a long 1 7 period of time, and my examination of them 1 8 has shown no ill effects. That's pre tty 1 9 close to the second reason I gave you 2 0 Q. In other words, you're sort o f 2 1 personalizing that second dose-illnes s 2 2 relationship, that is, your personal 2 3 experience examining people who have 2 4 exposures and their lack of medical 2 5 consequences? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MIS SOUR I 51 WATER PCB-00048362 1 A . And ill effects. that' s correct. 2 Q Anything else? 3 A . I'd say the time relat i o n s h i p . 4 Q Time to what? 5 A . Well, suppose som e b o d y said I was 6 exposed in 1950 -7 Q . And got sick in 1 9 9 0 ? 8 A . And now it's 1990 , and I have 9 diabetes , this is due to w h at I was exposed 1 0 to in 1950. I would believe that is an 1 1 important aspect of my medicalopinion. 1 2 Q. The remoteness, or lack thereof, 1 3 of time of the claimed injury to the 1 4 alleged exposure? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q . Next? 1 7 A. That's all I think of at present. 1 8 Q And would i t b e f air to say. 1 9 based upon these fa c t s that we h a v e just 2 0 discussed. even in t h e a b s e nee of a 2 1 physical examinatio n you wo u 1 d fee 1 the 2 2 ability to render a n opinio n r e g a r ding a 2 3 particular person ' s c 1 a i m ? 2 4 A . Yes, sir. 2 5 Q Would it b e fair to say that i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 WATER PCB-00048363 1 the past you have rendered an opinion i n 2 the absence of a physical examination o f 3 claimants based upon the facts that yo u 4 have outl ined for us here today? 5 A . You mean a phys ical examinat ion 6 by me? 7 Q Yes, by you. 8 A . Yes. I mean, I am privy to the 9 medical examinations by others. 1 0 Q. I understand. 1 1 A. Yes, that's correct. I do not 1 2 have to examine the people, if adequate 1 3 medical information is present. 1 4 Q. And with adequate medical 1 5 information and consideration of facts that 1 6 we have just discussed, you have in the 1 7 past rendered opinions as to whether an 1 8 individual was suffering from a particular 19. harm as a result of an exposure? 2 0 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. And would that have been, that 2 2 last sequence of events and scenario that 2 3 we discussed have been in cases in which 2 4 you were testifying at the behest of 2 5 Monsanto Corporation? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER PCB-00048364 1 A. Yes, s i r . Among others 2 Q I n c 1 u d i ng the rai 1 r o a d s ? 3 A . Yes, s i r . 4 Q Now, w e had been t a 1 k i n g a b o u 5 e m p 1 o y m e n t , and you ha d told m e t h 6 re p r e s e n t ly sort of i n the pri v a t 7 practice of medicine, principally 8 evaluating people for others, other health 9 care providers, at their request, and you 1 0 were a consultant to the Barnes-Sutter 1 1 Health Service. That's doing medical . 1 2 consulting for Barnes-Sutter? 1 3 A . Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. Can you tell me about your other 1 5 employment activities other than the 1 6 forensic consulting that you have been 1 7 engaged in since you terminated your 1 8 employment with Monsanto December 1, '74? 1 9 A. Yes. I havebeen a consultant to 2 0 Consolidated Aluminum Company, which had 2 1 its headquarters in St. Louis, although it 2 2 was owned by a Swiss company. 2 3 Q. What sort of consulting? 2 4 A. Beg pardon? 2 5 Q. What sort of consultant? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER PCB-00048365 1 A . Well it was almost like a 2 medical admi n i strator. A t that particular 3 time when I c a me with them they had 17 4 plants or so r now they have t h r e e , so I am 5 no longer -- I resigned fro m t h a t as of 6 January the 1 S t of this yea r , be cause three 7 just -- the r e wasn't a n y n e e d f or me any 8 more. 9 Q Wh a t were you w o r king o n , 1 0 occupational h ealth iss u e s regar ding their 1 1 employees ? 1 2 A . Bo t h occupati o n a 1 heal th issues 1 3 and medical c o s t s of t h eir insur a n c e 1 4 program. 1 5 Q. Anything else, any oth er services 1 6 you provided for Consolidated? 1 7 A. For Consolidated? 1 8 Q . Yes, sir. 1 9 A. I arranged for industr ial hygiene 2 0 services at some of their primar y reduction 2 1 plants . 2 2 Q. Through industrial hyg i e n i s t s 2 3 that you knew or were aware of? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. What were the inclusiv e dates of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 WATER PCB-00048366 1 your consulting services with Consolidated 2 Aluminum? 3 A E i t h e r 19 7 6 o r 1977 un til 4 D e c e mber 3 1 , 1 9 8 9. 5 Q A n y other empl o y m e n t e x p e r i e n c e s 6 d u r i n g t h a t time? That' s 12/1/7 4 to d a t e . 7 A T o date? 8 Q T o date. 9 A N o , I don't t h ink so. 1 0 M R . MALIN : Y o u said 1 9 7 8 t o - 1 1 what ' s y o u r question? I ' m sorry 1 2 MR. COHEN: My question is, any 1 3 other employment experiences other than the 1 4 ones we have thus far discussed between 1 5 those inclusive dates, 12/1/74 to date? 1 6 A. You asked for -- yes. For one 1 7 year, from 12/74 to 12/75, I was on a 1 8 formal basis with Monsanto for a year. 1 9 That's the only -- 2 0 Q. That's what? 2 1 A. I guess it was Medical Director 2 2 Emeritus. I was -- 23 Q. Did the same job as when you were 2 4 medical director? 2 5 A. No, I didn't, because they had a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 WATER PCB-00048367 1 new medical director and I took whatever 2 jobs he gave me. 3 Q So, was it as an indepen 4 c o n t r a c tor, or were you still an e 5 A . No, I was not an employe 6 Q So, it was sor t of you g 7 on some fee schedule bas is or some 8 A . That's correct 9 Q. And that was for one year? 1 0 A. One year. 1 1 Q. Any other employment experiences, 1 2 then, from 12/74 to date other than we've 1 3 discussed? 1 4 A . N o , sir. 1 5 Q How would you des c r i b e y o u r 1 6 ip w ith Monsanto C h e m i cal t o 1 7 How would I descr i b e i t ? V e 1 8 friendly. 1 9 Q. Okay. Do you have any 2 0 professional relationship with them, other 2 1 than providing occasional consulting 2 2 services or acting as a consultant in 2 3 forensic matters? 2 4 A. No. Some of my own friends may 2 5 call up and say give me the name of a good GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 WATER PCB-00048368 1 eye doc tor, I ' ve got a kidney stone. g i v e 2 me the name of a urologist. 0 u t s i d e o f 3 that, I have n one. 4 Q That 's on a personal - 5 A . You said professiona 1 basis / 6 though. 7 Q Yes. 8 A . Wei], , I want to give you all the 9 details 1 0 Q S o , that's your prof e s s i o n a 1 1 1 service s as a medical doctor? 1 2 A . As a friend, really. b e c a u s e I 1 3 d i d n ' t take c a re of them. 1 4 Q Ther e is no other re 1 a t i o n s hip 1 5 you h a v e with Monsanto today? 16 A. I g e t a pension from them. I get 1 7 invited to the old folks dinne r . Out s i d e 1 8 of that -- 1 9 Q And I gather your pe n s i o n i s n o t. 2 0 in any way con ditioned upon your cont inu i n g 2 1 to prov i d e con suiting services , or an y t h i n g 2 2 like that? 2 3 A. That has never been brought it up 2 4 until you brought it up now. 2 5 Q. Your pension is through some GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER PCB-00048369 1 pension and profit sharing arrangement that 2 Monsanto has for al 1 its empl o y e e s ? 3 A . Not profi t sharing. 4 Q Pension. 5 (Discussi on off the r e c 0 r d ) . 6 MR. COHEN : The a n s w e r w a s 7 pension? We were t alking abo u t y o u r 8 present c ircums tanc e s, and y o u s a i d you 9 receive a pension? 1 0 A . It was no t profit s h a r i n g 1 1 Q But it is through a pe n s ion plan. 1 2 established pension plan? 1 3 A . That's ri g h t . 1 4 Q . Are you a sharehold e r o f 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A . Yes, I am 17 Q And can y ou tell me r d e r of 1 8 magnatude , how many shares of t h e company 1 9 you hold? 2 0 A . Probably less than a hundred 2 1 thousand dollars worth. 2 2 Q At market value? 2 3 A . That's correct. 2 4 Q Are you a sharehold e r i n any 2 5 other entity which is a party to this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 WATER PCB-00048370 1 litigation, do you know? 2 A. Who are the parties? 3 Q. All right, let's try that. Let's 4 see. General Electric company? 5 A . No . 6 Q West inghouse? 7 A . No . 8 Q The Budd Company? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q I s n ' t that privately owned? I 1 1 don't im a g i n e -- Conrail? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q . Am tr ak ? 1 4 A . No . 1 5 Q Penn Central Corporation? 16 A . No . 1 7 Q You have a Bachelor of Science 1 8 degree, i s t h a t right, sir? 1 9 A . That is correct. 2 0 Q . Can you tell me, what was your 2 1 principal area of concentration to get that 2 2 degree? 2 3 A . Well , at that particular time it 2 4 was sort of a hybrid degree, it was 2 5 Bachelor of Sc ience in Medicine. You GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER PCB-00048371 1 received it after your second year in 2 medical school. So, I wrote my thesis in 3 bacteriology. 4 Q How many years of undergraduate 5 education did you actually have? 6 A . Two. 7 Q S o , there were two years of 8 undergraduate education and then you went 9 on directly to medical s c h o o 1 ? 1 0 A . That is correc t . 1 1 Q And that was - - both of those 1 2 programs were at St. Lou is University? 1 3 A . That is correc t . 1 4 Q And you receiv ed your medical 1 5 doctorate when ? Your Do ctor of Medicine, 1 6 when did you r eceive tha t degree? 1 7 A . Did you say wh e n ? 1 8 Q Yes. When? 1 9 A . 19 3 2 2 0 Q You, then, a p p arently had a 2 1 residency at St. Louis C ity Hospital? 2 2 A . That is correc t . 2 3 Q And that was a three year 2 4 res idency ? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 61 WATER PCB-00048372 1 Q. Was it in any particular area of 2 study? 3 A. The first two years were 4 rotating, you rotated among the medical 5 specialties, and the third year was in 6 internal medicine. 7 Q. Are you board certified in any 8 particular area or specialty? 9 A. Yes. I'm board certified in 1 0 internal medicine, I've been recertified in 1 1 internal medicine. I'm board certified in 1 2 preventive medicine under the specialty of 1 3 occupational medicine. 1 4 Q. You say that you are board 1 5 certified in preventive medicine? 1 6 A. That is correct. 1 7 Q. Under the specialty of 1 8 occupational medicine? 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. In what jurisdiction are you 2 1 board certified in preventive medicine 2 2 under the specialty of occupational 2 3 medicine; what body has given you that 2 4 certification? 2 5 A. The body is the American Board of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 WATER PCB-00048373 1 Preventive Medicine, which is recognized by 2 the AMA as one of the accepted specialty 3 groups. 4 Q When di d you become boar d 5 certified in prev entive medicine, sir? 6 When did you b e c o me board certifie d in 7 preventiv e m e d i c i n e ? 8 A . I think in the '50's, wh e n the 9 board was formed. 1 0 Q . Was the re an examination 1 1 involved? 1 2 A . No . I was one of the -- I don't 1 3 think you call it founders, I wasn ' t a 1 4 founder. but I w a s the first group that was 1 5 selected without examination. 1 6 Q And w h a t was the basis o f your 1 7 selection for boa rd certification without 1 8 examinati on? 1 9 A. I guess you'd have to ask them I 2 0 was recognized as an authority in 2 1 occupational medicine. 2 2 Q. Did they approach you? 2 3 A. No. I believe -- I can't answer 2 4 that, I don't remember. I just don't 2 5 remember. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 WATER PCB-00048374 1 Q. So, you don't remember the 2 circumstances of how your name came before 3 the American Board of Preventive Medicine? 4 A. No, I don't remember that. 5 Q. What employment did you have upon 6 completion of your residency at St. Louis 7 Hospital in 1935? 8 A. I didn't hear the last part of 9 your sentence. What appointment did I have 1 0 where? .1 1 Q. Upon completion of your residency 1 2 in 1935? 1 3 A. Appointment where? 1 4 MR. MALIN: What employment? 1 5 A. Oh, employment. 1 6 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry. I'll try 1 7 to speak up. 1 8 A. Thank you. Well, I went into 1 9 private practice in July of 1935, and I 2 0 went as a part -time physician a t M o n s a n t o 2 1 in one o f t h e i r St. Louis pla n t s i n January 2 2 of 1936. 2 3 Q. Would that be the reference here 2 4 that says Monsanto Company, 1936-1942, 2 5 Queeny Plant, plant physician? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 WATER PCB-00048375 1 A That i s correct. 2 Q Where is the Queeny plant? 3 A 17 0 0 South S e cond Street, S t . 4 Louis, Missouri. 5 Q. And the Queeny plant at that time 6 in 1936 to '42, was that a manufacturing 7 operation? 8 A. Yes. They manufactured organic 9 chemicals . 1 0 Q. They manufactured what? 1 1 A. Organic chemicals. 1 2 Q. Organic? 1 3 A. Organic. 1 4 Q. o-r-g-a-n-i - c? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q I s that the division of Monsanto 1 7 that m a n u factures the PCB ' s ? 1 8 A . A t that time? 1 9 Q A t that time? 2 0 A. Well, Monsanto has gone through a 2 1 half a dozen reorganizations. When I came 2 2 with the company, I believe there were only 2 3 t h r e man ufacturing groups . 2 4 Q What were they? 2 5 A . One was the phosphorus group., I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER PCB-00048376 1 think they call themselves the phosphate 2 group. The other was the organic 3 chemicals. And the third was, I guess, the 4 Merrimac Division, which was the 5 geographical name for their Boston plant in 6 Everett, Massachusetts. 7 Q. Merrimac? 8 A. M-e-r-r-i-m-a-c. So, the organic 9 division manufactured PCB at Anniston, 1 0 Alabama. Now, it gets a little confusing 1 1 because the landlord of the plant was the 1 2 phosphorus division, the phosphate 1 3 division, but the department itself, the 1 4 PCB department was, I believe, under the 1 5 organization of the organic division. 1 6 Eventually, they also manufactured PCB at 1 7 their East St. Louis plant, which was known 1 8 subsequently as the Krummerich plant, now 1 9 known as the Sauget plant. That was under 2 0 the organic division, which is now called 2 1 Monsanto Chemical Company. 2 2 Q. So, the East St. Louis plant, 2 3 also known as the Krummerich plant, also 2 4 known as the Sauget plant, all from time to 2 5 time was used at -- all those names GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 WATER PCB-00048377 1 identify one facility that w a s u s e d from 2 time to t ime to manufa cture PCB' s ? 3 A . When I came. it was c a lied Plant 4 B , so the re was a four t h name t h ere. 5 Q But none of those n a m e s is 6 Queeny? 7 A . Queeny is a St. Lou i s plan t . 8 Q Somewhere el s e, not i n E a s t St. 9 Louis? 1 0 A . No. In St. Louis . I t was also 1 1 known a s Plant A. It' s only had two names, 1 2 Plant A a nd the Queeny plant. n a m e d after 1 3 the found er of Monsant o . 1 4 Q So, PCB's we re not man u f a c t u r e d , 1 5 to your k nowledge, at any tim e a t t h e 1 6 Queeny P 1 ant? 1 7 A . They were no t , that i s cor rect . 1 8 Q Can you tell me w h a t w ere the 1 9 organic c ompounds that you re cal 1 t h at were 2 0 raanufactu red at Queeny during t h o s e six 2 1 years tha t you were th ere as p 1 a n t 2 2 physician? 2 3 A. Aspirin, caffine, phthalic 2 4 anhydride. We've got a host of them. I 2 5 mean, Orthonitroanilide, chloroani lide , GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 WATER PCB-00048378 1 There were about forty different organic 2 compounds . 3 Q . Any of those fall into the broad 4 category of chlorinated hydrocarbons? 5 A. Not that I remember. 6 Q . In 1946 you became medical 7 director of Monsanto Company? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And you held that position for 1 0 approximately 28 years? 1 1 A. Thirty something. 1 2 Q. 38 years? 13 A. '42 to '74, 32 years. '46, 1 4 rather. I'm sorry. So, 28 years. 1 5 Q. 28 years. And the hiatus in your 1 6 employment was that period of time that you 1 7 served in the United States Army? 1 8 A. That is correct. 1 9 Q. When you were working as the 2 0 medical director of Monsanto Company, where 2 1 did you work, where did you physically 2 2 maintain offices? 2 3 A. At their office building in about 2 4 1600 South Second Street. It was a six 2 5 story office building adjacent to the John GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-00048379 1 F . Queeny plant. 2 Q So, that was the St. Louis plant? 3 A . That is c orrect. Then in 1 9 5 6 4 they m o v ed out to 800 North Lindbergh 5 L-i-n-d- b-e-r-g-h . 6 Q What year was t h a t, again. 7 please? 8 A . I think ' 5 6 . 9 Q Also in S t . Louis ? 1 0 A . St. Louis County, yes. 1 1 Q St. Louis County . So, d u r i ng 1 2 that e n t ire 28 year tenure you worked a t 1 3 the same facility. first t h e Queeny p 1 a n t , 1 4 and then as it was moved to Lindbergh 1 5 Boulevard? 1 6 A . That is c orrect. 1 7 Q What were your d u ties as a plant 1 8 physician from 1936 to '42 at Queeny? 1 9 A . To carry out a p r eventive m e d i c a 1 2 0 program, to treat occupational injuries and 2 1 occupational conditions, if they would 2 2 arise, to consult on private medical 2 3 conditions, consult from the standpoint of 2 4 giving advice to the employees, rather than 2 5 treating them, and giving them one visit GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 WATER PCB-00048380 1 medical care. If someone came in with a 2 sore t h roat and a fever, we'd give them 3 a d v i c e , medical care, and send him out 4 his own p r i v a t e agency. 5 Q Can I have that response read 6 back? 7 (The requested portion of the 8 record read by the reporter). 9 Q . So, that last category, one visit 1 0 medical care. did not re late to 1 1 occupational injur i e s or conditions? 1 2 A . That is correct. 1 3 Q - If it was something that you 1 4 deemed to be an occupational injury or 1 5 condition , you provided them with 1 6 continuing medical care? 1 7 A. That is correct. 1 8 Q. Continuing through to what step 1 9 or phase of the illness? 2 0 A. Well, I don't exactly know what 2 1 you mean by continuing. If it were 2 2 something out of my competency or if it 2 3 were a fractured arm, they would go to an 2 4 orthopedist and Monsanto would pick up the 2 5 medical charges. They would then -- the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 WATER PCB-00048381 1 other o n e s that I w o uld be takin g care of, 2 we'd t r eat him until he got well 3 Q - Did y o u e v er have occa sion to 4 treat a ny i n d i v i d u a 1 who claimed that he 5 had an occupational injury or condition as 6 a result of an exposure to PCB's? 7 A . No, sir, I did not. 8 Q. Did you ever have occasion to 9 treat an individual who claimed he had an 1 0 occupational injury or condition as a 1 1 result of his exposure to some other 1 2 chlorinated hydrocarbon that related to his 1 3 employment with Monsanto? 1 4 A. I couldn't remember that. We're 1 5 now talking about the years from 1936 to 1 6 1942, and we had solvents there, and there 1 7 were chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents, and 1 8 I might very, very well have treated 1 9 people, but I jus t do not remember the 2 0 details of the p e o p 1 e who came in the 2 1 dispensary in those six years, which were 2 2 what, 45 years ago. 23 Q. And is it accurte to say that 2 4 while you were plant physician at the 2 5 Queeny plant you did not treat the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU I S, MISSOURI 71 WATER PCB-00048382 1 occupational injuries or conditions of 2 Monsanto employees who worked in other 3 plants? 4 A. There might be an occasion -- 5 yes, there might be an occasional case of 6 ones in the other St,, Louis plant. We h ad a 7 plant a t Carondelet, Missouri, who had a 8 doctor just on call. and I conceivably may 9 have treated some of those. In East St. 1 0 Louis, the East St. Louis plant, I would be 1 1 seen in consultation if it were a chemical 1 2 intoxication case. 13 Q. The EastSt. Louis plant did 1 4 manufacture PCB's during that time period? 1 5 A. Yes, sir. I don't exactly know 1 6 when they started, but it was around the 1 7 early ' 4 0 1 s, and, certainly, after I came 1 8 back from the service they were 1 9 manufacturing them, or they manufactured 2 0 them until they ceased manufacturing them. 2 1 Q. But during this early time period 2 2 that we're discussing, '36 to '42, you did 23 nothave the occasion to treat an 2 4 occupational injury or condition that was 2 5 the result of any alleged exposure to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 WATER PCB-00048383 1 PCB ' s ? 2 A. No, I did not have any, alleged 3 or real; we didn't have any problems with 4 it. No employee problems. 5 Q. When did the PCB production at 6 Anniston start, do you know? 7 A. Well, it was started before 8 Monsanto bought the Swann Chemical, 9 S-w-a-n-n, so it was going when I came to 1 0 work at Monsanto. I thi. nk that Swann 1 1 started in 1933 or 1934, and I thought 1 2 Monsanto bought the plant -- the whole 1 3 Swann Chemical Company sometime in 1935, 1 4 but I'm not sure. 1 5 Q. And that was the Anniston 1 6 operation? 1 7 A. That is correct. | 1 8 Q. Other than Anniston and the East 1 9 St. Louis plant, during the time that you 2 0 were employed by Monsanto, to your 2 1 knowledge, did they manufacture PCB's at 2 2 any other facilities? 2 3 A. In this country? 2 4 Q . Yes. 2 5 A. They did not in this country, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 WATER PCB-00048384 1 they did in the United Kingdom. 2 Q . Where was that? 3 A. Wales, I believe. Ruabon, 4 R-u-a-b-o-n, Wales. I think it was that 5 plant. 6 Q . Do you know the inclusive dates 7 of manufacture in Wales? 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q . Do you know the inclusive dates 1 0 of manufacture in Anniston? 1 1 A. As I said, I don't know when they 1 2 started. And I think whenever Monsanto 1 3 stopped manufacturing the material in '75, 1 4 '76, something like that, that's when they 1 5 stopped. 1 6 Q . How about in Wales, when did they 1 7 stop there? 1 8 A. I don't remember. 1 9 Q Did your duties as the medical 2 0 director at Mo nsanto Company during those 2 1 28 years from '46 to '74 rema in roughly the 2 2 same? 2 3 A . Yes, sir. I mean - - Yes, I 2 4 think so. 2 5 Q . Tell me what your duties were in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 WATER PCB-00048385 1 general terms? 2 A. Well, they were to supe r v i s e the 3 medical departments at the variou s pi ants, 4 If we didn't have a medical depar t m e n t , I 5 was to set one up. I was to inte r f a c e 6 bet wee n the Pi a n t doctor and the plan t 7 man age r . H e w a s a plant employee , b u t he 8 had a dotted 1 i n e to the medical 9 d e p art men t . I w as responsible fo r s e t t i n g 1 0 out m e die a 1 pr o c edures. I was re s p o n s i b 1 e 1 1 for s e 11 i ng u p a n industrial hyg i e n e 1 2 pro gra m . I w a s responsible for s e 11 i ng up 1 3 a t o x i col o g i c a 1 program for obtai n i n g 1 4 mat eri a 1 - - o b t aining informatio n on our 1 5 byp rod u c t s - - o n our raw material s or 1 6 fin i s h e d pro d u c t s, and disseminat i n g that 1 7 inf o r m a t i o n t o o ur employees and to o u r 1 8 c u s tom e r s 1 9 Q Wh e n d id that last acti v i t y r 20 o b t a i n i n g i n form ation on your - did you 2 1 say b y p r o due t s t raw materials? 2 2 A R a w m a terials. Not byp r o d u c t s , 2 3 raw mater i a 1 s . 2 4 Q Wa s i t just raw materia Is? 2 5 A And t h e finished produc t s . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 WATER PCB-00048386 1 Q What sort of information on raw 2 materials andfinished products? 3 A. Well, if we were starting a new 4 compound and got product X, and we were 5 going to use it at our Texas City plant, 6 I'd have to find out what the toxic 7 properties of the material were. 8 Q . That's what I want to know. You 9 were finding out toxic properties, then, of 1 0 raw materials and finished products? 1 1 A. Yes. As well as finished 1 2 products. 1 3 Q. And yousay you were 1 4 disseminating it to your employees? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q . When did that activity begin? 1 7 A. Oh, very shortly after 1946. 1 8 Q. Well, what what your sources of 1 9 information on the toxic properties of raw 2 0 materials ? 2 1 A. There were several. First of 2 2 all, if it was a "me too" product, in other 2 3 words, if duFont had manufactured it before 2 4 or used it before, I'd call up their 2 5 medical director and say "George, what do GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER PCB-00048387 1 you know about this?" That's number one. 2 Number two, I'd go through what medical 3 literature there was available. There 4 wasn't a great deal at that time, because 5 toxicology was not so popular in those 6 days. Number three, I would find out from 7 our individuals in our research department 8 what possible ill effects they might have 9 had doing their bench work with the 1 0 product. Number four, if we didn't have 1 1 any information, we did -- we arranged for 1 2 animal experimentation to find out what the 1 3 basic toxic properties were. 1 4 Q. Anything else? 1 5 A. Well, no. There were government 1 6 bulletins that came out about various 1 7 products. 1 8 Q. Any other sources of information 1 9 you can tell us about today that you used 2 0 from time to time in order to determine the 2 1 toxic properties of raw materials or 2 2 finished products? 2 3 A. No. I think that's exhausted the 2 4 gamut . 2 5 Q. What other activities did you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER PCB-00048388 1 have as medical director other than those 2 that you've described thus far? 3 A. I think I gave you the three or 4 four. I set up medical departments, 5 supervised them, arranged for industrial 6 hygiene and services to the plant, 7 toxicological services. 8 Q. Set up medical procedures, 9 interfaced with the plant physician and 1 0 management? 1 1 A. And I would also go through the 1 2 plants, the various plants. Before we got 1 3 our industrial hygiene department fully 1 4 organized, Iwould walk through the 1 5 manufacturing installations to familiarize 1 6 myself with them, with the manufacturing 1 7 processes. 1 8 Q . In connection with your last 1 9 activities, that is, determining the toxic 2 0 properties of raw materials and finished 2 1 products, were you responsible for the 2 2 acquisition of outside services to 23 determine these properties? 2 4 A. Yes. I find it a little hard to 25 answer that question. For example, in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 WATER PCB-00048389 1 early days with PCB's , work was going to be 2 carried out by -- at Harvard Medical 3 School by Halowax Corporation, which bought 4 some chemicals from Monsanto. Well, they 5 were going to arrange it, and they called 6 us up and said will you defray part of the 7 expenses. If that's what you mean by -- 8 that was arranged by somebody else and we 9 picked up part of the check. 1 0 Q . When was that, sir? 1 1 A. 1937 or '38. 1 2 Q . Now, that was prior to your 1 3 tenure as the medical director? 1 4 A. Well, yes. But, I was sort of 1 5 -- after I was there for one or twoyears 1 6 I was sortof medical director without 1 7 portfolio. In other words, if a problem 1 8 came up, they would think well, we've got a 19 doctor over at theQueeny plant, let's ask 2 0 him about it, so they would send it to me. 2 1 With that exception, any time an outside 2 2 laboratory was engaged to work on a 2 3 Monsanto product, I was the one that picked 2 4 the laboratory out. 2 5 Q. What was the result of that work GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER PCB-00048390 1 done at Harvard at the request of Halowax 2 Corporation? 3 MR . M A L I N : I object to the form 4 of the q u e s t i on. I ' m not quite sure I 5 understand it 6 MR . COHEN : I ' 11 ask it agai 7 Doctor. Ther e was a study done at Harvard 8 Univers i t y at the r e q u e s t of Halowax 9 Corporation o n PCB ' s , is that right? 1 0 A . T h a t is c orrec t . 1 1 Q Was that study published? 1 2 A . Yes , i t w a s . 1 3 Q . D o you k n o w t h e title of the 1 4 study w hen p u b 1 i s h e d? 1 5 A . I d o not know the exact deta i 1 s 1 6 of it. But i t was p u b 1 i shed by Dr. Ph i 1 1 i p 1 7 Drinker , D-r- i - n - k - e-r , and it was 1 8 published in the Journal ofIndustrial 1 9 Hygiene and Toxicology in 1938, I believe, 2 0 and 1939, two publications. 2 1 Q. Was that an animal study or was 2 2 that an epidemiological study? 2 3 A. Animal study. 2 4 Q. Do you know who wrote the 2 5 protocol for the study? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 WATER PCB-00048391 1 A . Beg pardon? 2 Q . Do you know who wrote the 3 protocol for the study? 4 A. Drinker. 5 Q. Himself? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is he a medical doctor? 8 A. He's a P h . D , I believe. 9 Q . Do you know what he was -- what 1 0 his doctorate was in? 1 1 A. No. But he was head of 1 2 industrial hygiene at Harvard. He was the 1 3 fellow that invented the Drinker 1 4 respirator. He was one of the top people 1 5 in industrial hygiene and industrial 1 6 medicine, even though he did not have a 1 7 medical degree. 1 8 Q. Do you know what hisgraduate 1 9 work was done in, what field? 2 0 A. No, I don't. 2 1 Q Do you know if it was b i o 1 ogy r 2 2 c h emistry, physic s; do you have any i d e a ? 2 3 A . No . H e was senior to me i n a ge 2 4 a t that time. and he was senior to m e i n 2 5 reputation, so I didn't go around checking GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 81 WATER PCB-00048392 1 on him. 2 Q So, you accepted the f a c t that he 3 would know what h e was doing? 4 A . He was a n authority, y e s / sir. 5 Q Do you know what type o f P C B 6 compounds he was studying a t t h a t t i me? 7 A . That is quite confusin g 8 Q Tell me what you know? 9 A . H a 1 o w a x is primarily c h 1 o r i n a t e d 1 0 naphthalene, n-a- p-h-t-h-a-l-e-n - e 1 1 Q Yes. 1 2 A . And the y manufactured a d o z e n 1 3 Halowaxes, some w ere mixtures. Th e base 1 4 was usually chlor in a t e d naphthal e n e , i t 1 5 could have been t richlor, pentic hi o r f 16 hexachlor, any number of chlorinated 1 7 naphthalenes. In one of them they used a 18 compound which they had told Drinker was 1 9 chlorinated biphenyl. Drinker tested both 2 0 the combined Halowaxes and the individual 2 1 components of some of the Halowaxes. He 2 2 came out with a toxicity for chlorinated -2 3 what he thought was chlorinated biphenyl 24 that was quite high. I called him up and I 25 said look, what goes on, we don't think GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 WATER PCB-00048393 1 this is any way close to what you r e 2 talking -- nearly as toxic as you're 3 talking about, where did you get your 4 chlorinated biphenyls, we're not even sure 5 we sell Halowax this. 6 Q . I'm sorry, I didn't hear the las 7 part. 8 A . We're not even sure we s ell 9 Halowax chlorinated biphenyl. S o , he said 1 0 I got a compound from Halowax that they 1 1 said w a s chlorinated biphenyl. and i t 12 contains 65 percent chlorine. I said well, 1 3 we really don't make a compound that is 1 4 chlorinated biphenyl and sell it with 65 1 5 percent chlorine, the closest we come to 1 6 you is chlorinated at 60 percent and 1 7 chlorinated at 68 percent, we'll send you 1 8 some 68. So, he ran that, and he found out 1 9 it was only fractionally as toxic as the 20 thing that he had tested. And he sort of 2 1 -- and he stated that in his 1939 2 2 article. And we found out afterwards that 2 3 what he tested was not chlorinated 2 4 biphenyl , it was chlorinated biphenyl 2 5 benzene, which is a n entirely different GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 WATER PCB-00048394 1 horse it's got another benzene radical on 2 it and it's a different compound entirely. 3 I ' ra sorry I had to b e so long, b u t there 4 was confusion about w h at he test e d . 5 Q. I appreci ate the e x p 1 a n a t i o n , 6 sir. What was the b a s is t h at y o u we r e 7 rely ing upon when y o u c a 1 1 e d him up and 8 i n d i cated to him th a t you d i d n ' t b e 1 i e v e 9 that the results we r e from what you were 1 0 m a n u facturing? 1 1 A. We had pe o p 1 e at A n n i s ton who 1 2 were making the mat eri a 1 , a n d we had sold 1 3 it f or any number - -- none of t h e s e worker 1 4 had any problems, w e h ad so Id it i n 1 5 mill ions of pounds -- - not m i 1 1 i. o n s , 1 6 thou sands of pounds a t that time , and we 1 7 had no complaints f rom our c u s t o mers . And 1 8 think there may have been some acute 1 9 u d i e s in the literature on the mater 2 0 that time. 2 1 Q. There were prior studies in the 2 2 literature, to your knowledge? 2 3 A. There may have been by a Henry 2 4 Smyth, S-m-y-t-h. He published something 25 on a whole bunch of compounds, and I think GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 WATER PCB-00048395 1 this was included in one of his laundry bag 2 list. 3 Q. We're talking here in the late 4 '3 0 's, is that right? 5 A. Middle '30's, '36. 6 Q. The engagement by Halowax of the 7 Harvard people I thought was '37 to '38; 8 did I get t h a t wrong? 9 A . No r i t ' was p r o b a b 1 y early '37. 1 0 Because Dr i n k e r ' s p u b 1 i c a t i o n either was a t 11 the end of f 3 8 - - ' 3 7 or the b e g i n n i n g o f 1 2 '38. The s e c o n d one. I know, was in ' 3 9 1 3 So, I don' t k n o w the e x a c t -- w h e t h e r i t ' s 14 the end of i 3 7 o r 38. But S myth ' s list o f 1 5 compounds, which included a chlorinated 1 6 biphenyl, was, I think, in '36. I'm not 1 7 sure 1 8 Q . So, when you called Dr . Drinker 1 9 on the phone. whenever it was, 1 ate 1'37 or 2 0 '38, and told him that you felt that the 2 1 results that he was coming up with weren't 2 2 reflective of your product, you were basing 2 3 that opinion upon, apparently, previous 2 4 scientific literature? 2 5 A. Well, more especially on the fact GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 WATER PCB-00048396 1 that we had that we had been 2 manufacturing the material with n o 3 particular problem at all, and we had no 4 reports of any injuries at all from our 5 customers. 6 Q. How long had you been 7 manufacturing the product at that time? 8 A. Since they bought it from Swann, 9 which was before I came, so it must have 1 0 been 1935. 1 1 Q . So - 1 2 A. It was two to three years. 1 3 Q. That Monsanto was manufacturing 14 1 5 A . That's correct. 1 6 Q So, you were b a s i ng y o ur o p i n i o n 1 7 upon t w o to three years o f e x per i e n c e , 1 8 then, i s that correct? 1 9 A . That's correct. 2 0 Q Do you know what Swann ' s p r i o r 2 1 e x p e r i e nee had been with the pro duct; that 22 is, w h e n you spoke to Dr. Drinke r , did you i 2 3 know w h at Swann's prior experien c e was 7 2 4 A . With which product? F i r s t o f 2 5 all, we weren't sure what Drinke r had. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 WATER PCB-00048397 1 Q Right. You weren't sure what 2 Drinker had because it was different from 3 what you believed your experience to be? 4 A. And was different from what he 5 really tested. It was honest to goodness 6 chlorinated biphenyl. so it was d i f f e r e n t 7 from that. It was 1 0 or 2 0 times as t o x i c 8 as the material we sen t him. which was our 9 production run of 1268 . S o , what was the 1 0 question? 1 1 Q. I'm trying to understand, when 1 2 you spoke to Dr. Drinker in the late ' 3 0 ' s 1 3 about the studies that he had done at 1 4 Harvard University, whether you were basing 1 5 your opinion that his results were off on 1 6 solely the years of Monsanto's experience 1 7 with the product, or also including Swann 1 8 Chemical's prior experience? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You included Swann Chemical's 2 1 prior experience? 2 2 A. Well, I don't know if I did or 2 3 not. I mean, I don't think I can speak for 2 4 Swann. Because I told him we have had no 25 ill effects from our customers who used it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 WATER PCB-00048398 1 in hundreds of thousands of pounds, and 2 that information would be derived only from 3 Monsanto produced PCB's. 4 Q. What was the product being used 5 for at that time in the mid to late ' 3 0 ' s ? 6 A. Again, which product? The one he 7 tested first or second? 8 Q. Your stuff, PCB's. 9 A. It was used for delustering 1 0 rayon, it was usedfor waxes, other things, 1 1 lubricants. I'm not exactly sure all the 1 2 things it was used for. It was not used 1 3 particularly in electrical applications, 1 4 that I recall. 1 5 Q. Do you remember the form in which 1 6 you were selling the product? Was it being 1 7 sold in a wax form, was it being sold in 1 8 liquid form, was it being sold in powdered 1 9 form? 2 0 A . I think it was powdered. 2 1 Q The higher chi orinated was also 2 2 being s old in powdered f o r m ? 2 3 A . Beg pardon. 2 4 Q The higher chi orinated, like the 25 1268? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | A fl WATER PCB-00048399 1 A. That ' s what I'm talking about . I 2 mean, that may have been a viscus liquid or 3 a solid that was ground up in a powder. 4 The material he probably tested, the 4465, 5 the chlorinated diphenyl benzene, was a 6 solid, I believe. I'm not certain. 7 Q. That's something he got from 8 Halowax? 9 A. That's correct. 1 0 Q. Not from Monsanto? 1 1 A. Not from Monsanto. 1 2 Q. Do you remember how many 1 3 different levels of chlorination Monsanto 1 4 was selling back in those days? 1 5 A . Six to eight. I guess. 1 6 Q Do you remembe r the ranges? What 1 7 were they, 1244 through 1 2 6 8 ? 1 8 A . 1242 up through 1268. Maybe only 1 9 six. I ' m not certain. 2 0 Q To your knowledge, were they all 2 1 sold i n powdered form? 2 2 A . No. The lower chlorinated ones 2 3 were 1 i quids. 2 4 Q And the higher chlorinated were 2 5 sold e i ther as powder or waxes? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 WATER PCB-00048400 1 A. Well, I think the 1268 would be 2 the only one that would be either a heavy 3 viscus or a solid. I'm not exactly sure. 4 But, certainly, 1260 was a liquid. 5 Q. The delustering rayon operation, 6 was that done in a closed, sealed fashion, 7 do you know? 8 A. I have no idea how it was used. 9 Q. You don't know how the process 1 0 was run? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q You don't know how the work 1 3 were expo sed to the material. i f at a 1 4 A . No, I'm not certain a t all. 1 5 I'm pretty vague about the use of 1268 in 1 6 those days. I mean, I'm not certain about 17 it. 1 8 Q. How about any of your PCB's, what 1 9 were they being used for in those days? 2 0 You said delustering rayon, anything else? 2 1 A. Well, the others were used as a 2 2 dielectric. They were used in waxes, and I 2 3 think they were used in lubricants. 2 4 Q. Waxes for what purpose, to your 2 5 knowledge? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 WATER PCB-00048401 1 A I don't know whether the y were 2 used as waxes as a release agent in 3 f o u n d r i e s o r not, I don't know. 4 M R . MAL IN : We have some problem 5 about the t i me peri ods that you're talking 6 about . 7 M R . COHEN : What' s the problem? 8 MR . MA LIN : Well, I object to the 9 form of the question. I would appreciate 1 0 it if you could, you know, direct your 1 1 questions to specific time periods. Are 1 2 you now in the '3 0 ' s ? 1 3 MR. COHEN! I'm trying to 1 4 understand what the products were being 1 5 used for at that time, from this witness's 1 6 knowledge. This witness just told me that 1 7 he called up Dr. Drinker on the telephone 1 8 sometime in the late -- mid to late '30's 1 9 and discussed with him certain concerns 2 0 that he had about Dr. Drinker's test 2 1 results as a result o f certain factors, and 2 2 I'm trying to test his knowledg e of what 2 3 those factors were when he call e d Dr. 2 4 Drinker on the phone, that's all. 25 MR. M A LIN * So, we're talking GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 WATER PCB-00048402 1 about the mid to late ' 3 0 ' s ? 2 MR. COHEN: I think that's been 3 clear, hasn't it. Doctor? 4 A. I thought we were talking about 5 the 1 9 3 0 ' s . 6 Q. That's right. So, as I 7 understand it. you're not sure of all the 8 uses that the product was put to duri ng 9 that time period in its various 1 0 chlorinations. You do believe, however, it 1 1 was used for delustering rayon, used as 1 2 lubricants, it was made into waxes for 1 3 various purposes, and it was also -- the 1 4 lower chlorinated compounds were used as 1 5 dielectric fluid? 1 6 A. That's correct. 1 7 Q. As of that time in the late ' 3 0 ' s 1 8 when this study was commissioned by Halowax 1 9 with the cooperation of Monsanto at 2 0 Harvard, at that time had there been any 2 1 prior work done by Monsanto or at the 2 2 request of Monsanto regarding the toxicity 2 3 of PCB's? 2 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 5 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 WATER PCB-00048403 1 that the results of Dr. Drinker's work sort 2 of became the foundation of a library o f 3 studies done a t the request o f o r a t t h e 4 behest of M o n s anto and othe r s regardi ng the 5 toxicity of PCB's? 6 M R . MALIN : I obj e c t t o the f o r m 7 of that q u e s t i on. If you c a n a n s w e r t h a t 8 ques tion -- 9 A . I do n't know what you me a n . You 1 0 mean t h at was a foundation o f a 1 i bra r y o f 1 1 tests o r -- 1 2 Q Let me put it thi s way. i f I were 1 3 to open up the drawer in a f i 1 i n g cab i n e t 1 4 and put an e n v elope in ther e a n d c ailed i t 1 5 "PCB to x i c i t y studies - req u e s t of 1 6 M o n s a n t o, " the first thing t h a t I w o u 1 d 1 7 find in there would be the Dr i nker s t u d y ? 1 8 MR . MALIN: I ob j e c t t o the form 1 9 of the q u e s t i o n. If you th ink you 2 0 underst and t h a t question -- 2 1 A . I do . But, no, b e c a use S w a n n had 2 2 some wo rk c a r r ied out by a Dr . F 1 i n n i n New 2 3 York, a n d we w ere given -- t h a t w a s f o u n d 2 4 in the M o n s a n t o files, fina lly mad e i t s way 2 5 down to me, and that would pro b a b 1 y b e the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-00048404 1 first thi ng in the fil e drawer. 2 Q Okay. And d o you know when Dr. 3 Flinn did this work? 4 A . He did it fo r Swann, and it must 5 have been '35. 6 Q And were the se toxicity studies, 7 also? 8 A . Yes, they we r e . 9 Q Animals or e pidemiological? 1 0 A . Not epidemio logy. No, it was not 1 1 epidemiol ogical. I do not know if he did 1 2 some patch tests in an imals or patch tests 1 3 in people . But he did some ingestions in 1 4 animals. 1 5 Q In any event , they were animal 1 6 studies? 1 7 A . Beg pardon? 1 8 Q They were an i m a 1 s t u d i e s ? 1 9 A . Yes. Except r I ' m not c e rtain 2 0 whether h e did any pat c h t e s t s i n a few 2 1 humans or not. I do n ot know. I do not 2 2 remember. 2 3 Q Do you want to take a break. 2 4 Doctor? 2 5 A . Not for me. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI | 94 WATER PCB-00048405 1 Q Now, a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t from your 2 earlier testimony , please correc t me i f I ' m 3 wrong - 4 A . Earlier today? 5 Q Earlier today . Subs eq u e n t t o 6 this wo r k done by Dr. D r i n k e r , a n y t e s t s 7 regardi ng the t o x i c i t y of PCB ' s done a t the 8 behest o f M o n s a n t o subsequ e n t t 0 that t i m e 9 would h a v e been a rranged i n on e way o r 1 0 another through y our offic e ? 1 1 A . That's correct. 1 2 Q . So, you are f a m i liar r then. I 1 3 gather. w i th all of the t e s t s t h at s u c c e e d 1 4 that ti m e ? 1 5 A. Yes, sir. 1 6 Q. When was the firs t time you 1 7 requested epidemiological s tudies regarding 1 8 the toxicity of FCB's? 1 9 A. I never requested a n 2 0 epidemiological study. We h a v e n ' t been 2 1 talking about that up to no w , have we? 2 2 Q. No, we haven't. 2 3 A. What? 2 4 Q N o , we haven't? 2 5 A . I never requested epidemiological GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 WATER PCB-00048406 1 studies. You asked toxicological at the 2 same time. Are we going to talk now about 3 toxicological studies? 4 Q. Let me ask you this, just so I'm 5 clear, there was never any time during your 6 tenure of employment with Monsanto Company 7 that you requested epidemiological studies 8 be done to study the toxicity of PCB's in 9 humans? 1 0 A. That's correct. Now, 1 1 epidemiological studies do not study the 1 2 toxicology of a compound. Toxicology is an 1 3 inherent property of a compound. An 1 4 epidemiological study is one that shows 1 5 whether there has been exposure enough in a 1 6 particular group to a particular compound 1 7 to cause an ill effect on a worker. 1 8 Q. Let me ask you this, with your 1 9 q u a 1 i f i c a t i o n , did you ever order 2 0 e p i d e m i o 1 o g i c a 1 s t u die s in order to study 2 1 the ill e f f e c t upon a human , a worker or 2 2 otherwi s e , a s a res u 11 of e xposure to 2 3 PCB's? 2 4 A. No, sir, I did not. 2 5 Q . Was there anyone within the GORE REPORTI NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 WATER PCB-00048407 1 organization at Monsanto during the time 2 period we're talking about, 1936 to 1974, 3 that would have had the responsibility for 4 ordering such studies? 5 A . No, sir. None were d o n e . 6 Q In other words. ther e was no one 7 else who would have been r e s p o n s ible, none 8 were done ? 9 A . That's correct. 1 0 Q During the time peri o d we're 1 1 talking about? 1 2 A . Correct. 1 3 Q. Are you aware of the work that 1 4 has beendone at the request of Monsanto 1 5 subsequent to your termination of 1 6 employment? 1 7 A . Yes, sir. 18 Q. And do you know if any have been 1 9 done subsequent to the termination of your 2 0 employment, any epidemiological studies? 2 1 A. Yes. There were two 2 2 epidemiological studies carried out at the 2 3 Krummerich plant; one by Zack, Z-a-c-k, I 2 4 believe, and somebody -- Muech, M-u-e-c-h, 25 or something, and the other by William GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 WATER PCB-00048408 1 G a f f e y G-a-f-f-e-y. 2 Q. Do you know who ordered those 3 studies done? 4 A. I don't know who ordered those. 5 Q. Have you seen them? 6 A. Yes, I've seen them. 7 Q Now , you said D r . D r i n ker wrote 8 the pro t o c o 1 for his t o x i c o logic a 1 study 9 back in the ' 3 0 ' s . Do y o u know who wrote 1 0 the pro t o c o 1 for the e p i d e m i o 1 o g i c a 1 1 1 studies done a t Krummeri c h s u b s e q u e n t to 1 2 your t e riinat ion of e m p1 o y m e n t ? 13 A. I do not know. 1 4 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, 1 5 all of the studies that you ordered done 1 6 subsequent to 1936, or whenever it was, and 1 7 through 1974 were all animal tests? 18 A. Were all what? 1 9 Q. Animal tests? 2 0 A. We did some patch testing on 2 1 people . 2 2 Q . Who did them? 23 A. The Barnard, B-a-r-n-a-r-d , Skin 2 4 and Cancer Hospital in St. Louis. 25 Q. Barnard, B-a-r-n-a-r-d Skin and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 WATER PCB-00048409 1 Cancer? 2 A . That's ri g h t . 3 Q . When were they done? 4 A . Probably the 1 ate ' 4 0 ' s . I'm not 5 sure. 6 Q Did you order those t e s t s ? 7 A . Yes, I did. 8 Q Who wrote the proto col for those 9 tests? 1 0 A. Well, the protocol was pretty 1 1 well established by -- in the literature, 1 2 and I don't know if the government had a 1 3 hand in writing that protocol. But this 1 4 dermatologist at Barnard Skin and Cancer 1 5 Hospital followed the standard procedure of 1 6 what is known as a patch test, in which you 1 7 take 200 people and put the material on a 1 8 moistened bit of gauze and cover it over, 1 9 and then leave it on for 48 hours and then 2 0 challenge it again in 48 hours, or a week 2 1 and see what happens. It's nothing to do 2 2 with toxicology at all, it only has to do 2 3 with whether o r not a compound is a skin 2 4 sens itizer, such a s poison ivy. or skin 2 5 irritant such as terpentine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 WATER PCB-00048410 1 Q In other words no tests were 2 done to determine the absorption rates into 3 the ski n , or a n y t h i n g like that? 4 A . No , they wer e not. 5 Q Not in human s ? 6 A . No , not in h u m a n s . 7 Q And no blood draws on those 8 i n d i v i d uals were done to see if the 9 materia 1 had been abso rbed and at what 1 0 rate? 1 1 A . No . That w a s not the purpose of 1 2 the t e s t . The purpose of the test was to 1 3 see the action on the skin, 1 4 Q Skin i r r i t a n t ? 1 5 A . Or skin sens i t i z e r s . 1 6 Q Has it a ski n irritant or skin 1 7 sensitizer? 1 8 A No , not o n the b a s i s o f that 1 9 test. I f you get the m a t e r i a 1 o n and leave 2 0 it on for a pr o 1 o n g e d pe r i o d o f time you 2 1 could get redness. 2 2 Q How many pe o p 1 e wer e i nvolved in 2 3 those Bar n a r d Skin a n d C a n c e r H o s p i t a 1 2 4 tests, d o you know ? 25 A Usually 2 0 0 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 10 0 WATER PCB-00048411 1 Q . Do you know what information the 2 subjects were given regarding the substance 3 that they were testing? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you know if they were given 6 any warnings about the substance? 7 A. We had certainly no reason to 8 give them any warnings, because we knew the 9 procedure was going to be innocuous. We 1 0 had people that had been exposed to their 1 1 skin during the manufacture of the material 1 2 for years and had no problems, so we did 1 3 not tell these people we were going to put 1 4 an inch square piece of gauze on you soaked 1 5 with PCB and you'd better watch out, 1 6 because we knew nothing was going to 1 7 happen. 1 8 Q. And that is, again, based upon 1 9 your experience in the manufacturing? 2 0 A . Yes, sir. 2 1 Q. What was the purpose of the test, 22 then? 23 A. To see if the material was a skin 2 4 sensitizer or skin irritant. 2 5 Q. What information did you have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 1 WATER PCB-00048412 1 from your own manufacturing end with 2 respect to it being a skin irritant or skin 3 sensitizer? 4 A. We didn't have any, but we had 5 -- were going to use it in a new -- I 6 don't know which PCB it was, it was g 7 to be used in a vinyl film that would 8 covering auto seats and other things, and 9 if we had somebody sitting down there in 1 0 shorts, we wanted to be sure they wouldn't 1 1 get sensitized to the material and break 1 2 out with a poison ivy-like rash. 1 3 Q. Did it go into manufacture? 1 4 A . Oh, yes. It was used for a long. 1 5 Ion g time in vinyl -- as a vinyl 1 6 p 1 a sticizer. and no cases of skin 1 7 irritation or skin sensitization. 18 Q. Do you know of any other 1 9 epidemiological studies that have been done 2 0 on Monsanto employees, other than the two 2 1 that you've identified? 2 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 23 of the question. I don't think he called 2 4 that last one an epidemiological study, did 2 5 you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 02 WATER PCB-00048413 1 A. We talked about the Z a c k and the 2 Gaffey studies. Zack and Gaffey. I know 3 of no others. 4 MR. COHEN: Do you know of any 5 other tests that were done on human beings 6 at the behest of Monsanto, other than the 7 epidemiological studies that we've 8 discussed and this skin patch test that . 9 we've discussed? 1 0 A. Well, wait. An epidemiological 1 1 study is not a test on people. Let's break 1 2 this down. I mean, we aren't testing 1 3 people in an epidemiological study, you're 1 4 going over some records, death certificates 1 5 in one case and medical records in 1 6 another. So, there is no human direct 1 7 involvement in an epidemiological test. 1 8 Now, the only -- we do not do 1 9 toxicological tests on people, with the 2 0 exception of patch testing. 2 1 Q. Why is that, sir? 2 2 A. Why? 2 3 Q. Yes. Why? 24 A. Because you test a product to 25 find out in an animal what the target organ GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 03 WATER PCB-00048414 1 is and what harm can result And we re not 2 going to subject a human being to that 3 particular test to find out. The standard 4 test on an animal is one that kills half 5 the animals, and I do not believe that any 6 responsible investigator would carry out 7 such a test on humans. 8 Q. What do you expect to do with the 9 results of the animal studies? 1 0 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 1 form of that question. If you think you 1 2 understand that question, you can answer. 1 3 A. Well, I guess I do. We use the 1 4 results of the animal testing to provide a 1 5 basis for safe handling procedures for our 1 6 workersand our customers. 1 7 Q. Would it be fair to say that you 1 8 make an assumption that the results of the 1 9 animal tests are indicators of what could 2 0 happen in humans? 2 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 2 of that question. Answer the question, if 2 3 you understand it. 2 4 A . No, I don 't think it's f a i 2 5 say that. Because, first of all. t h GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 104 WATER PCB-00048415 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 animal testing to find out the basic toxicity is not freely transcribeable or transposed to human -- to the human species. It may or may not. That's all we have, obviously, as far as how you go around testing. You test on animals, you don't test on humans. Secondly, however, we base a great deal of our opinion on what has been the history of the workers, what has been the history of the users. If those are negative, that gives us a very strong clue as to the toxicity of the material in certain exposure occurances . Q. Now, you said it may or may not be transferable to humans? A. That's correct. Q. The results of the animal test? A. That's correct. Q. Under whatcircumstances, in your opinion, would the results of the animal tests be transferable to human experience? MR. MALIN: I object to the form of that question. If you think you understand that question, go ahead and answer. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 105 WATER PCB-00048416 1 A . If you had several species of 2 animals and you had the s a m e tar ge t organ 3 Q - In these animal s , one m i g h t 4 conclude that the h u m a n s pec i e s w o u 1 d 5 respond in the same way with the same 6 target organ. If you had metabolic studies 7 that showed that the animal metabolized the 8 material the same way the human did, you, 9 again, could think these results could be 1 0 transposable. 1 1 Q. Can you read back that answer? 1 2 (The requested portion of the 1 3 record read by the reporter). 1 4 MR. COHEN: You had a lot of 1 5 qualifying terms in there. Doctor, like 1 6 "might c o n c 1 u d e . " Nha t w o u 1 d i t b e about 1 7 these r e s u 11 s that w o u 1 d c a u s e y o u t o 1 8 c o n c 1 u d e that the r e s u 11 s o f the a n i ra a 1 1 9 studies would be transferable to humans? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of the question. 2 2 A. I don't know what that question 2 3 says. 2 4 MR. COHEN: I'm referring to your 2 5 last answer, Doctor. I asked you a GORE R EPORTI NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 06 WATER PCB-00048417 1 question, under what circumstances you 2 would want to use the results of the animal 3 studies or transfer it to humans, and you 4 said if you had in several species the same 5 target organ, then one might conclude that 6 the same target organ would exist in 7 humans. Do you recall that part of your 8 prior answer? 9 A. Yes, I recall that. 1 0 Q. Now, what I'm asking you is, you 1 1 said "might conclude;" what factors would 1 2 cause one to conclude that you would have 1 3 the same target organ in humans? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Again, same 1 5 objection. If you think you understand 1 6 that question. Doctor, you may answer. 1 7 A. Well, I'll do my best. If you 1 8 had a history of some of these same 1 9 conditions happening in human workers, you 2 0 might say yes, the animal studies can be 2 1 transferable. But, this is all we have to 2 2 go on, we can only go on animal studies. 2 3 They are not a hundred percent accurate - 2 4 I mean, a hundred percent transferable. 2 5 Chloracne does not occur from the feeding GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 107 WATER PCB-00048418 1 of P C B ' s in animals it does occur from the 2 feeding of PCB's in humans. Which was 3 inadvertent feeding, obviously -- not 4 feeding, from the ingestion of PCB's in 5 accidents. Non-industrial accidents, 6 e x - U . S . A . accidents. 7 Q What are you referring to? 8 A . To the Yusho and the YuCheng 9 episode i n Japan and Taiwan. 1 0 Q Can chloracne occur in humans 1 1 other tha n through the route of ingesti 1 2 to your knowledge? 1 3 A. Oh, yes. By inhalation, by 1 4 absorption through the skin. 1 5 Q. Do you believe that ingestion of 1 6 PCB's occurs in the work place on an 1 7 accidental basis through a person licking 1 8 their lips or perspiring into their mouth 1 9 or nose and swallowing it? 2 0 MR. MALINs I object to the form 2 1 of the question. If you think you 2 2 understand that question -- 2 3 A. Will you repeat the question? 2 4 (The requested portion of the 2 5 record read by the reporter). GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 108 WATER PCB-00048419 1 MR . COHEN : Let me see if I can 2 clarify it. I'll ask a new question. Do 3 you believe that there are other routes of 4 ingestion -- I'm not talking about 5 absorption through skin, but ingestion of 6 PCB's in the work place other than through 7 the accidental -- other than through the 8 route of accidentally or unintentionally 9 eating it, such as in the Yusho and Yu 1 0 Cheng incidents? 1 1 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 2 form of the question because it doesn't 1 3 really define the work place, level of 1 4 exposure and what's happening, what's 1 5 available. 1 6 MR. COHEN: I'm not talking about 1 7 levels of exposure. 1 8 A. I think it would be 1 9 infinitesimal. 2 0 Q Infinites i m a 1 . But y u ag r e 2 1 t h a t the factors th a t your c o u n s e 1 j u s 2 2 wen t through, that i s , the 1 e v e 1 o f 2 3 exp osure, duration o f expo s u r e , e t c e t 2 4 w o u 1 d all impact up o n how inf ini t e s i m a 2 5 that level of ingestion was? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ in WATER PCB-00048420 1 A. My counsel had nothing to do with 2 it, it was your explanation of saying 3 somebody has PCB on a cigarette and they 4 put the cigarette intheir mouth, how much 5 PCB are they liable to get. I said that's 6 so minute it doesn't even need to be 7 thought about as ingestion. 8 Q. How about if it was on their 9 table where they ate their lunch? 1 0 A. It doesn't follow the lines that 1 1 -- I can't conceive -- you'll have to 12 tell me how much is on the table. Is it 1 3 flowing with PCB's while he's eating his 1 4 ham sandwich? 1 5 Q. In other words, you're saying 1 6 that all of these factors, that is, the 1 7 amount that's there, how long it's been 1 8 there, and all of theseother factors all 1 9 would come into play as to how 2 0 infinitesimal that ingestion would be? 2 1 A. I would say that in my 40 years 2 2 of going through PCB plants, any 2 3 possibility of ingestion was so minute as 2 4 to be completely disregarded. 25 Q. And chloracne, you agree, does GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 WATER PCB-00048421 1 come from absorption into the body other 2 than through ingestion? 3 A. That is correct? 4 A. It occurs through dermal 5 absorption in humans? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. But not in animals? 8 A. There is a little difference of 9 opinion there, whether a rabbit can show 1 0 chloracne by multiple applications. Some 1 1 people say yes, some people say no. I'm 1 2 not convinced either way. But usual dermal 1 3 application to animals has not resulted in 1 4 chloracne . Feeding of a n i m 1 5 years of PC B has not caused 1 6 Q Do you agree that 1 7 in animal s at at least the 1 8 those PCB's are absorbed through dermal 1 9 absorption as they are through ingestion? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of that question. If you think you 2 2 understand it, please attempt to answer 23 i t . 2 4 A. I don't think you can make that 2 5 general -- that general conclusion. I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 1 WATER PCB-00048422 1 mean, it might be in the same ball park. 2 There have notbeen repeated dermal tests 3 on animals over three weeks or four weeks, 4 whereas there have been repeated human -- 5 I mean,repeated animal tests for a period 6 of two years. So, it's awfully hard to 7 make that comparison. But I would say that 8 it depends on the way the material is 9 applied, depends on the investigator, it 1 0 depends on the animal. 1 1 MR . COHEN : S o , a g a i n , the 1 2 o t h e r fa c t o r s that wo u 1 d a f f e c t your 1 3 w i 1 1 i n g n ess to accept any sue h c o n c 1 1 4 A . Well , with the e x c e p t i on I 1 5 the -- they're both sort of in the same 1 6 ball park. 1 7 Q. So that the toxicity, whether 1 8 it's through ingestion or dermal 1 9 absorption, in your opinion, is not 2 0 significantly affected? 2 1 A. Well, yes. To paraphrase you, 2 2 the material is toxic if taken by mouth in 2 3 such quantities. It is toxic by absorption 2 4 if you have sufficient prolonged skin 2 5 absorption, certainly. But that is a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 112 WATER PCB-00048423 1 property that occurs in a hundred thousand 2 industrial chemicals . 3 Q. Including PCB's? 4 A. Including PCB. It's an 5 industrial chemical, obviously, it's not 6 intended to be a food additive, it's not 7 intended to be ingested. 8 Q. It was, however, added to 9 plasticizers for seat covers for cars? 1 0 A. That's correct. 1 1 Q. And a number of other commercial 1 2 consumer products? 1 3 A. Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. Over the years. What is LD 50? 1 5 A. LD 50 is a term used by 1 6 toxicologists to denote the dose that kills 1 7 half of a group of animals. L D me 1 8 lethal dose, 50 meaning 5 0 percent 1 9 Q . The LD 5 0 for ora 1 i n g e s 2 0 PCB's was established in certain species or 2 1 in certain strains of rats during the ' 50 ' s 2 2 or ' 60 ' s, was it not? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. And what was it established at, 2 5 do you remember? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ii WATER PCB-00048424 1 A. Well, it varied with the chlorine 2 concentration. It varied with the animal. 3 Rabbits were more susceptible than rats or 4 mice or dogs. 5 Q. And that was oral ingestion we're 6 talking about, now? 7 A . Also, skin absorption; there were 8 some skin studies don e . 9 Q Let's talk about LD 50 through 1 0 oral inge s t i o n . Was that established in 1 1 rats? 1 2 A . Yes, sir. 1 3 Q . What was the mode , if you will. 1 4 of its toxic reacti o n that ultimately 1 5 caused the death of the subject animal, do 1 6 youknow? 1 7 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 8 of the question. If you understand that, 1 9 go ahead. 20 MR. COHEN: Let me restate it as 2 1 simply as I can. How did it act to kill 2 2 the animals? 2 3 A . I don't think that was 2 4 established, because in the acute studies 2 5 the animals died within 24 to 48 hours. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | iid WATER PCB-00048425 1 Whether i t was a g e neral toxic effect or 2 whether i t had any parti cular organ 3 specifici ty , I do n o t be 1 i e v e that was 4 established. 5 Q. Wasthat ever established, to 6 your knowledge? 7 A. Well, it's awful hard to 8 establish the mode of action on an acute 9 poisoning. You do an autopsy, of course, 1 0 and there is all the features that occur 1 1 with death. You have congestion of the 1 2 liver, you have congestion of the lungs, 1 3 you have heart failure. What actually 1 4 killed the animal, I do not believe it's 1 5 been e s tablished. It' s been established in 1 6 chro n i c cases. 1 7 Q And in the c hronic cases, what is 1 8 the established toxic reaction? 1 9 A . Presumably, the liver. 2 0 Q What is the affect on the liver? 2 1 A . It disturbs some of the enzymes. 2 2 oxidative procedures in the liver. I can't 2 3 you any more than that. 2 4 Q I s that b e c a use you do n't know? 2 5 A . That's b e c a u s e I don't know at GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 WATER PCB-00048426 1 the present time, yes. I'm not a 2 pharmacologist . 3 Q. Would you agree that a 4 pharmacologist would be a person who could 5 tell us the toxic re tion, if you will? 6 A. Well, you t down into s o m e very 7 involved enzymatic c mistry, yes. which 8 would be certainly m e than I know 9 Q. You said y 're not a 1 0 pharmacologist? 11 A. I'm not a armacologist. H e 1 2 might very well be able to tell you. 1 3 Q. That would be the specialty one 1 4 would look to? 1 5 A. That's right. That's why we had 1 6 toxicologists . 1 7 Q. I'm sorry? 1 8 A. That's why Monsanto had 1 9 toxicologists . 2 0 Q. Were they pharmacologists? 2 1 A. The first one was. They both 2 2 were. 2 3 Q. So, they were toxicologists, 2 4 deemed toxicologists even though their 2 5 actual specialty was pharmacology? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 16 WATER PCB-00048427 1 A . In those days there was no 2 specialty of toxicology. A person was 3 primarily a pharmacologist who became 4 interested in toxicology. 5 Q. Tell me, sir, in the experience 6 that you had, since there were no actual 7 tests done on humans, but in theexperience 8 that Monsanto had with humans, was there 9 any toxic reaction shown in the liver of 1 0 humans? 1 1 A. No, sir, there was not. 12 Q. Did you receivereports of 1 3 persons receiving exposure to PCB's and 1 4 subsequently dying from liver ailments? 1 5 A. I never did. 1 6 Q. Did you see reports in the 1 7 literature that human beings had been 1 8 exposed to PCB's and succumbed from liver 1 9 ailments? 2 0 A. The studies, or -- there were 2 1 reports in the literature about the Halowax 2 2 studies. As I said, one of those Halowaxes 2 3 was alleged to have 10 percent PCB's in it, 2 4 which these -- as I said earlier in my 2 5 testimony, this was not PCB's, this was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 117 WATER PCB-00048428 1 chlorinated diphenyl benzene. With that 2 exception. And, of course, there were 3 1 i v e r d e a t h s i n t h e Halowax cases . T h ere 4 had been n o 1 i v e r deaths in exposure t o 5 P C B ' s , w i th t h e e x ception -- well. t h ere 6 have been no liver deaths. There have been 7 no liver injuries with the exception of 8 acute exposure to PCB's at elevated 9 temperatures in leaking heat transfer 1 0 apparatus. 1 1 Q. In leaking -- 1 2 A. Heat transfer apparatus. 1 3 Q. Are you talking, again, about 1 4 Yusho and Yu Cheng? 1 5 A. No. No. What I'm talking about 1 6 is these people had an jerryrigged heat 1 7 transfer contraption where the heat is out 1 8 here and the fluid going through, it 1 9 leaked, so they breathed it for they days 2 0 before three got around to fixing it, and 2 1 they developed jaundice and got well. 2 2 There has been one report of those cases. 2 3 Those three people got well. That's the 2 4 only one I know. 2 5 Q. That was, however, a toxic GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 18 WATER PCB-00048429 1 o the liver of a human b e i n g ? 2 Acute toxic react ion. that ' s 3 right. 4 Q. You had, just in your last answer 5 prior to this one, referred again to the 6 Halowax studies; that, of course, involved 7 animals? 8 A . What? 9 Q. The Halowax studies involved 1 0 animals? 1 1 A. Well, no. A lot of workers -- 1 2 not a lot, but there were very many 1 3 illnesses and deaths from using Halowax 1 4 back in 1935 and 1936. You had it at wire 1 5 pulling operations. 1 6 Q. And those individuals died from 1 7 liver ailments? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q S o , w h e n you were talk i n g about 2 0 Hal o w a x a few min u t e s ago i n you r previous 2 1 a n s w e r , you were not r e f e r r i n g t o Dr . 2 2 Drinker's studies? 2 3 A. I was not, no. 2 4 Q. But you know of no fatalities 2 5 from liver ailments reported in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 WATER PCB-00048430 1 literature in humans from exposure 2 PC B ' s ? 3 A . That's correct 4 Q You do know of people bee o m i n g 5 sickened with jaundice a n d r e c o v e r i n g ? 6 A . Yes, sir. I m ig h t men t i o n , in 7 response to that second last q u e s t i o n , 8 there may be reports in the 1 i t e rat u r e , 9 case reports where someb o d y says I had a 1 0 man die of liver problem s that w a s exposed 1 1 to PCB 15 years ago. Th ere may h a v e been 1 2 some of those in some ob s c u r e jo urn a 1 , I 1 3 don't know. 1 4 MR. MALIN: Doctor, he's not 1 5 asking you to speculate, he wants t o 1 6 know -- 1 7 A . I do not know of any. 1 8 MR. COHENs Let's go back 1 9 Doctor. You had apparently partici p a t e d in 2 0 the secur ing of certain studies sub sequent 2 1 to 1936 o r '37 in animals to study the 2 2 toxic pro per ties o f PCB's? 23 A . Ye s , s i r . 2 4 Q Wh e n w a s the first time y o u were 2 5 involved in securing such studies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | ion WATER PCB-00048431 1 A. I know that in 1954 we secured 2 the services of the University of 3 Cincinnati. We may have secured one or two 4 toxicological laboratories in St. Louis, 5 where we would run acute screening tests. 6 We may have some of those reports prior to 7 1954. I'm not certain when we did it. 8 Q. Now, we have the University of 9 Cincinnati, and we have, I think you said 1 0 screening tests? 1 1 A. Run at the Younger, 1 2 Y-o-u-n-g-e-r, or -- I forget the name of 1 3 t h e other one. I'll think of it later o n 1 4 11 was another acute t e s t i n g o u t f it in S t 1 5 Louis. 1 6 Q. What do you mean by acute 1 7 testing? 1 8 A . Well, we ran screening test s on 1 9 dose levels of the material. We would 2 0 you c ould test it in the eyes to see i 2 1 it was an eye irritant, you can test it on 2 2 the skin to see if it was absorbed through 2 3 the skin to cause problems, and you would 2 4 test for the L D 5 0 . That's an acute test. 2 5 Q So, you were test i n g , b a s i cal 1 y, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 12 1 WATER PCB-00048432 1 one application? 2 A . T h a t's correct. 3 Q 0 r an application of a high level 4 over a short period of time from either 5 i n g e s t i on or direct applica tions to s k in or 6 an eye or s o m e other extern a 1 -- 7 A . 0 r volatilize it and have an 8 animal breath e it. 9 Q H a v e them breathe it in. T h a t ' s 1 0 a short term. high dosage e xposure? 1 1 A . Th a t's correct. 1 2 Q Oth er than acute testing, di d you 1 3 ever do chron ic exposure te sting? . 1 4 A . Ever? 15 Q Yes . 1 6 A . Yes . Certainly, in the -- back 1 7 in '54, the s tuff had -- the Universi t y of 18 C i n c i n n a t i w a s 150 days or something, o r 1 9 120 day s o r s omething, that was consid ered 2 0 chronic at t h at time. Then we carried out 2 1 chronic f e e d i ng studies at Indus trial 2 2 B i o t e s t ' s lab oratories in Chicago in 1 ate 23 1960 ' s . 2 4 Q Any other product tests? 2 5 That Monsanto arranged? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 122 WATER PCB-00048433 1 Q Yes. 2 A . No. 3 Q. Let's go back. You were telling 4 me about the tests that you had done in the 5 mid ' 5 0 ' s ; is it fair to say t h a t the r e 6 w e r e no tests done at Mon santo's b e h e s t 7 fro m the late ' 3 0 ' s when the Hal o w a x tests 8 wer e done by Dr. Drinker to the mid ' 5 0 ' s ? 9 A . Ido n't think i t ' s f a i r to say 1 0 t h a t , because I said that when I came back 1 1 i n '46, we may very well have do n e a c u t e 1 2 t e s ting at one of -- the other 1 a b o r a tory 1 3 was Scientific Associates -- at e i t h e r 1 4 Younger Labora tories or S c i e n t i f i c 1 5 Ass ociates in St. Louis, we may have done 1 6 s o m e of those at that tim e . I'm not 1 7 c e r tain when w e did that. 1 8 Q . You don't recal 1 ? 1 9 A . Beg pardon? 2 0 Q . You don't recal 1 ? 2 1 A . Ido n't recall whether we d i d 2 2 t h a t before '54 or after '54. 2 3 Q. What were the results of the 2 4 tests that were done prior to '54? 2 5 A. Prior to what? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 3 WATER PCB-00048434 1 Q '54. 2 A . I f they were done pr i o r t o '54? 3 Hell, it gave us the acute LD 5 0 pre tty 4 close to what Drinker had, in the r a n g e of 5 4 or 5 grams per kilogram for a rat. 6 Q. To your knowledge, were these 7 specially bread rats? 8 A. Specially bread for what? 9 Q. Any particular purpose. 1 0 A. I guess they were theplain 1 1 laboratory rats that the rat suppliers sold 1 2 to the laboratories, I don't know. 1 3 Q. So, you don't know? 1 4 A. I don't know. 1 5 Q. So, you don't know if these rats 1 6 had any particular susceptibility to this 1 7 chemical or if any of their organs were 1 8 particularly susceptible to this kind of 1 9 material? 2 0 A. No, I don't know, Until we got 2 1 the results, they certainly weren't very 2 2 susceptible to it. 23 Q I'm sorry? 2 4 A . They weren' t very susceptible to 2 5 it coming out with an LD 5 0 of 4, which is GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 124 WATER PCB-00048435 1 something like salt. 2 Q. Now, the animals that survived, 3 were they subsequently sacrificed, to your 4 knowledge? 5 A. No, sir. I'm sure they were 6 sacrificed. I mean. they were use 7 something, but they were -- histo 8 was not done o n them , if that's wh 9 asking about. They were not done. 1 0 Q. Not done? 1 1 A. Not done. 1 2 Q. To your knowledge, were all of 1 3 the animals ultimately destroyed either 1 4 through the testing, that is, they 1 5 succumbed to the substance, or subsequently 1 6 sacrificed? 1 7 A. Not to my knowledge. But that's 1 8 the common practice in a toxicological 1 9 laboratory, they don't use the survivors 2 0 for the next experiment coming along. 2 1 Q. They don't send them out on the 2 2 street, or anything like that? 2 3 A. I can't hear you. 2 4 Q. They don't send them out on the 2 5 street, or anything like that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 5 WATER PCB-00048436 1 A . I don't think so. 2 MR. MALIN: Don't speculate. 3 MR. COHEN: In any event, no 4 follow-up work, to your knowledge, was ever 5 done on these animals that were subjected 6 to these acute studies? 7 A . No , sir. 8 Q All right. Tell me about the 9 studies that were done in the mid ' 5 0 's ? 1 0 A . I n the mid ' 5 0 ' s , we were using 1 1 P C B ' s a s a die cast hydraulic fluid. and 1 2 a heat transfer agent. 1 3 Q You said as a die ca st? 1 4 A . Die cast, yes. 1 5 Q Hydraulic? 1 6 A . Fluid. 1 7 Q What do you mean by that. sir? 1 8 A. Well, you have a pressure source 1 9 here and you want to get that pressure over 2 0 to this particular die, you've got to 2 1 transfer it by hydraulic means, like your 2 2 hydraulic brakes. 2 3 Q . So, you were using it as a 2 4 hydraulic fluid? 2 5 A. A transfer of power, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i 9a WATER PCB-00048437 1 Q . Just a moment, That system 2 should have been a sealed system, isn't 3 that right? 4 A. Well, they never are. I mean, 5 they leak all the time. I mean, because 6 the die is being pushed out, air is 7 pressure,and the material comes out. 8 There is exposure. It's not sealed into a 9 piston where a piston pushes it out, there 1 0 are leaks all the time. And it may very 11 well be-- I've never been in a die casting 1 2 operation, but there is always leakage of 1 3 the material. I mean, because that's why 1 4 the plants caught on fire, and that's why 1 5 they wanted a non -- a fire resistant 1 6 f 1 u i d . S o , the q u estion wa s , if this thing 1 7 drop s on hot metal , what's the reacti o n o f 1 8 the worke r to this dropping o n this h o t 19 meta1 . 2 0 Q What is your sour c e o f 2 1 info rmati on about the leaka ge of the flu i d 2 2 from the die casti ng machin ery and t h e 2 3 plan t s c a tching on fire? 2 4 A . Well, w h at I read i n the 2 5 news paper about t h e General M o tors pi ant GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 127 WATER PCB-00048438 1 where i t leaked / a n d they had a 14 million 2 dollar fi re, burn e d down t h e whole 3 apparatus . So, i t leaked, 4 Q So, you r source o f information o n 5 how this occurs, t h e n, was the newspaper 6 article? 7 A . Well, it's talking to various 8 engineers, engineers that were in our 9 company and engineers -- industrial 1 0 hygienists that had gone into these 1 1 plants. Yes, they knew it leaked. 1 2 Q. So, do I understand it that this 1 3 information came to you as the medical 1 4 director at Monsanto Company sometime prior 1 5 to the mid ' 50 ' s, and this led to the 1 6 creation of a protocol for a study? 1 7 A. That is correct. 1 8 Q. What would have been your usual 1 9 sources of information that would have 2 0 caused you to determine that a study should 2 1 be investigated? 2 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 3 of that question. If you think you 2 4 understand that question -- 2 5 A. Well, I don't know what he means GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 128 WATER PCB-00048439 1 by usual sources. 2 MR. MALIN : I don't, either. 3 MR. COHEN: I'm trying to 4 understand. How is it that it came about 5 that Monsanto would decide to undertake a 6 particular test? 7 A. Okay. Here I have a department 8 that's got a couple of chemical engineers, 9 or industrial hygienists, I go to a meeting 10 where there are industrialhygienists from 1 1 the state, from other companies, from the 12 government, and the question -- there are 13 papers published about exposures in various 1 4 industries, and I'm talking to them at 1 5 meetings, and I get information that adds 1 6 up to the fact that die casting machines 1 7 leak. That's where I got it. 1 8 Q . That ' s die casting mac h i n e s 1 9 Other tests were p e r f ormed other than 2 0 t e s t i n g the material on this hot molt 2 1 metal ; what would b e the source o f 2 2 information there that caused Monsanto to 2 3 decide to investigate particular 2 4 toxicologic properties? 2 5 A. I would say that die casting GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 129 WATER PCB-00048440 1 problem was the most serious one. The 2 t h e r was that there may always b e 1 e a k s in 3 e a t t r a n sfer apparatuse s where you h a v e a 4 e a t t r a n sfer source and you h a v e w e 1 d e d 5 i P e . A n d that goes t o whatever you w a n t 6 to heat up, whether it's French fries or 7 fish food or anything else. And those can 8 leak. 9 Q. Did your department maintain any 1 0 documentation of information that you 1 1 received that you applied before you 1 2 decided to investigate a particular 1 3 scenario? 1 4 A . No , sir. And I'm not so s u 1 5 when we got the information a b o u t h e a 1 6 transfer -- the realization that heat 1 7 transfer agents were a problem until they 1 8 had the Yusho and Yu Cheng episodes. I'm 1 9 not sure. 2 0 Q. Is that what you were talking 2 1 about when you were talking about heat 2 2 transfer agents with heating up French 2 3 fries or fish food or something like that? 2 4 A. That ' s what I was talking about . 2 5 Q. Yusho and Yu Cheng? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 130 WATER PCB-00048441 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. In other words, in the Yusho and 3 Yu Cheng incident, PCB fluid was in a heat 4 transfer mechanism of some type, 5 transferring the heat from the heat source 6 to oil that was being used for consumption 7 or in the preparation of consumable food, 8 and it was in that circumstance that the 9 PCB fluid leaked into the oil? 1 0 A. You have to qualify the PCB 1 1 fluid. The PCB used there was Kanneclor, 1 2 which is a Japanese PCB, which is 1 3 manufactured by a different process than 14 Monsanto. There were contaminants in the 1 5 PCB fluid that were later found by the 1 6 Japanese and Chinese scientists to be 1 7 responsible for the problems, rather than 1 8 the PCB itself. 1 9 Q. What were those contaminants 2 0 called? 2 1 A. Chlorinated dibenzofurans , 2 2 chlorinated quaterphenyls . 2 3 Q. Now, you said that the Kanneclor 2 4 was made by a different process of 25 manufacture? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 13 1 WATER PCB-00048442 1 A . That's correct . 2 Q. What's your source of information 3 on that? 4 A. The scientists at Monsanto. 5 Q. They tell you it's a different 6 manufacturing process? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What do you understand to be the 9 process of manufacture of Monsanto's PCB 1 0 fluid? 1 1 A . You take ben z e n e , run it into a 1 2 k e t a n e pot reactor o f m o 1 t e n lead. you join 1 3 the two benzene radicals together, and you 1 4 distill it out of there into another 1 5 reactor and you chlorinate it. 1 6 Q. You're going too fast for me. 1 7 A. Okay. 1 8 Q. You take benzene? 1 9 A. Benzene. 2 0 Q. Is that phenyl? 2 1 A. No. Benzene is --phenyl has got 2 2 an OH radical hooked onto it. Benzene is 23 C6 , -- C6H . 24 Q . C6H? 25 A . 6 . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 2 WATER PCB-00048443 1 Q C6H6 . Okay. And then what do 2 you do, you run it into a pot of molten 3 lead? 4 A . That's right, to make diphenyl, 5 The two together. 6 Q So, the result is it comes out as 7 a d i p h e n y i? 8 A . That's right. Then you take this 9 diphenyl and chlorinate it by adding 1 0 chlorine to various -- displacing hydrogen 1 1 from v a r ious parts of this diphenyl 1 2 molecule 1 3 Q And how do you do that? 1 4 A . By running in nascent chlorine. 1 5 n-a-s-c- e - n - t chlorine. gaseous chlorine. 1 6 Q . How do you control the level of 1 7 chlorina t i o n ? 1 8 A . I ' m not a manufacturing chemist 1 9 I don't know. But they do it. 2 0 Q S o , you don't know? 2 1 A . I don't know that, no. 2 2 Q . Did the chemist at Monsanto tell 23 you this is the basic process? 2 4 A . Well, I saw this process, so I 2 5 know w h a t the process is, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 133 WATER PCB-00048444 1 Q. You saw the process done? 2 A . Yes. I was at the plant. 3 Q. But someone had to explain to you 4 what was going on in the plant, is that 5 right? 6 A. Yes. That's true. 7 Q. I mean. you ' re a medical d 8 're not a manu facturing chemist? 9 A. That's correct 1 0 Q. So, so m eone from that 1 1 ufacturing pla n t took Y ou through 1 2 d here's where we run the benzene 1 3 ough the lead, molten lead, and i 1 4 out as a diphenyl? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q. Or something to that effect? 1 7 A. Something to that effect. 1 8 Q. And then they said now we're 1 9 running it through nascent chlorine and 2 0 it's going as to come out as a PCB? 2 1 A. Of course, I had read the 2 2 manufacturing process before I went to the 2 3 plant, so they really didn't have to spell 24 it out in thatmuch detail. But I didn't 2 5 know the temperatures, I didn't know the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 134 WATER PCB-00048445 1 pressures involved and I didn't know how 2 they distilled the material out, as far as 3 chlorination is concerned. 4 (Noon Recess). 5 MR. COX: It's stipulated among 6 all the counsel that an ob jection made by 7 one counsel for one party shall redoubt t o 8 the b e n e f it of all parties . 9 MR. COHEN : I think where we 1 0 broke off, Doctor, you were explaining to 1 1 me what you understood to be the process at 1 2 Monsanto used to manufacture 1 3 polychlorinated biphenyls, and you had said 1 4 that you had understood that the PCB 1 5 material that was involved in the Yusho and 1 6 Yu Cheng incidents was a different 1 7 product . 1 8 A. I didn't say that. I said it was 1 9 manufactured by a different product -- by 2 0 a different process and that it had 2 1 contaminants that were not present in the 2 2 Monsanto product. 2 3 Q. Yes. And you identified 2 4 chlorinated dibenzofurans and chlorinated 2 5 guaterphenyls? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 135 WATER PCB-00048446 j 1 A That's correct 2 Q. Now, what did you understand 3 about the process of manufacture for 4 Kanneclor? 5 A. They used a sodium hydroxide wash 6 at someplace, and I do not what -- where 7 that occurred during the process. 8 Q . What is your source of 9 information on that? 1 0 A. The engineers at Monsanto. 1 1 Q. Can you identify specifically who 1 2 would have given you this information? 1 3 A. Dr. Kaley may very well have been 1 4 one of them. 1 5 Q. K-a-1-1 - 1 6 A. K-a-l-e-y. 1 7 MR. MALIN: The chap whose 1 8 deposition you took about a month ago. 1 9 MR. COHEN: You say he may have 2 0 been one of them. Are there others whose 2 1 names come to mind as potential candidates? 2 2 A. It might have been Papageorge. 2 3 Q . What would Mr. P a p ageorge ' s 2 4 informati on or source of i n f ormation have 2 5 been on this, do you know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 13 6 WATER PCB-00048447 1 A. I don't know. He was 2 manufacturing -- he was a plant ager at 3 Anniston, s o h e manufactured -- 4 Q H e was the plant manager? 5 A . At Ann i s t o n . 6 Q What d id you understand th e 7 sodium hydroxide wash did to the pro duct? 8 A. I haven't the slightest id e a . 9 Q. Was it your understanding that 1 0 the sodium hydroxide wash, wherever it was 1 1 done in the p r o c ess, was the e 1 e m e n t that 1 2 introdu c e d the e xistence o f t h e s e 1 3 c o n t a m i n a n t s , a s you call e d them ? 1 4 A . I do n ' t know. 11 was not m y 1 5 underst a n d i n g , I had no i d e a w h a t it did to 1 6 the product. 1 7 Q . Do you know what was t h e s ource 1 8 of the contaminan t s in the Kannec lor 1 9 product ? 2 0 A . No, sir , I d o not . I ' d h a v e to 2 1 suppose 2 2 Q . Now, w h at d i d you under s t a n d was 23 the e xi stence of d i b e n zofurans in t h e 2 4 Kannecl or product that was i n v o 1 v e d in the 2 5 Y u s h o a nd Yu Chen g i n c i d e n t when the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 13 7 WATER PCB-00048448 1 material was new? Did you understand that 2 it contained -- let me back up and try 3 again. Did you understand that the 4 Kanneclor product that was involved in 5 those two incidents that we discussed 6 contained dibenzofurans at the point -- at 7 the end point of manufacture as a finished 8 product? 9 A. I did not know that of my own 1 0 knowledge. I did not know that. 1 1 Q. What do you know about it today, 1 2 from whatever source? 1 3 A. I'm not sure. I just would have 1 4 to -- I was told there was some 1 5 dibenzofurans in the Kanneclor product, 1 6 that it was a higher level than was in the 1 7 Monsanto product, but I don't know anything 1 8 about the details. 1 9 Q. Do you know how much higher level 2 0 it was? 2 1 A . N o I do not. 2 2 Q Do Y ou know what 1 e v e 1 -- -- let me 2 3 back up . Do I understand fr o m Y our 1 a s t 2 4 a n s w e r / when Y ou say it was a h i gher level 2 5 than i n the Mo nsanto product r d o e s t h a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 138 WATER PCB-00048449 1 indicate to you that the Monsanto product 2 had dibenzofurans as a finished product 3 before use? 4 A. Yes. It may have, yes. 5 Q. Did you know the level of 6 dibenzofuran content of the Monsanto 7 products at the point of conclusion of a manufacture? 9 A. No. Because it depended on the 1 0 sophistication of the analytical method. 11 The first time Monsanto PCB was analyzed 1 2 for chlorinated dibenzofurans was in 1 3 Europe, and they found none. They were 1 4 checking Monsanto versus two other European 1 5 suppliers, and they found the chlorinated 1 6 dibenzofurans in the Italian and French, 1 7 did not find it in the Monsanto product. 1 8 So, I can not tell you about the levels, 1 9 because I do not know the sophistication at 2 0 various points in time. 2 1 Q. Well, you're not suggesting that 2 2 the content, the existence of the 2 3 dibenzofurans in the product is dependent 2 4 upon the analytical process, but, rather, 2 5 the ability to detect its presence? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 139 WATER PCB-00048450 1 Certainly, I am not suggesting 2 that. 3 Q. All right. So, it's the ability 4 to detect it that depends upon the 5 sophistication of the analytical process? 6 A . T h a t ' s correct. 7 Q - T o your knowledge, did Monsanto 8 d o tests o f the product t o determine 9 for themselves the presence and level of 1 0 dibenzofurans in their finished product? 1 1 A. Yes, they did. 1 2 Q How many times , do you know? 1 3 A . I do not know if they did it 1 4 before I left in 1974, I was told that 1 5 did it subsequent to 1974. 1 6 Q. And what did they find, do you 1 7 know? 1 8 A. I do not know the levels, but 1 9 they found some chlorinated dibenzofurans. 2 0 Q. Do you know if they found a level 2 1 similar to the level of dibenzofurans in 2 2 the Kanneclor product involved in the Yusho 2 3 and Yu Cheng incidents when that product 2 4 was new? 2 5 A. I do not know that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 14 0 WATER PCB-00048451 1 Q . Do you know 2 dibenzofurans was f o u n 3 that was alleged to ha 4 reactions in the Yusho 5 incidents? 6 A. I lost the first part of your 7 question . 8 Q. Strike it, let's do it again. Do 9 you know the level of the dibenzofurans 1 0 that was found in the product that was 1 1 a 1 1 e g e d t o h a v e caused the toxic reactions 1 2 i n the Y U s h o a n d Yu C h eng i ncidents? 1 3 A . I t w a s r e p o r ted i n the 14 1i e , a n d I ' m n o t s u r e I could quote 1 5 that today to you. 1 6 Q. When did the Yusho and Yu Cheng 1 7 incidents occur? 1 8 A. The Yusho was in late 1960's, I 1 9 think '68, and the Yu Cheng was early 2 0 '70's; '71, '72. 2 1 Q. They both occurred during your 2 2 tenure with Monsanto Company? 2 3 A. Beg pardon. 2 4 Q. They both occurred during the 2 5 period that you were still with Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 141 WATER PCB-00048452 1 A I may be wrong on the Yu Cheng, I 2 t h ought that o c c urred after I 1 e f t . 3 Q . D o you know w h e t h e r t h ere w a s a 4 r e port o f a n i n c r e a s e in t h e qua n t i t y o f 5 t h e ben z o f u r a n s from the or i g i n a 1 prod u c t 6 t o the t i m e that the i n c i d e n t o c c u r r e d ? 7 A. I do not know if they had levels 8 of the original product at that time. 9 Q. What have you -- have you 1 0 subsequently learned anything about it? 1 1 A. Well, yes. I subsequently read 1 2 that there was a high -- considered to be 1 3 g h level of d i b e n zofurans in the Yusho 1 4 that was used to cook soybean cakes . 1 5 Q. Did you understand that that was 1 6 present in the product from new, from 1 7 manufacture, or did you understand that it 1 8 was something that occurred during the 1 9 process of use? 2 0 A. I did not knowwhether or not 2 1 there was any particular level in the 2 2 material, de novo, but it was certainly the 2 3 scientific opinion that whatever level 2 4 there was was enhanced by the treatment in 2 5 the heat transfer unit, as well as cooking GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 142 WATER PCB-00048453 1 the material in a wok or whatever they 2 cooked it with. 3 Q Do you know what t e mperature 4 was expos e d to in the h e a t transfe 5 process? 6 A. No, sir, I do not. 7 Q. Was the heat transfer process a 8 process similar to heat transfer processes 9 that you described earlier in which the 1 0 Monsanto product was used? 1 1 A. I don't know. 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of the question. 1 4 A. I don't know. 1 5 MR. COHEN: What do you know 1 6 about the Yusho and Yu Cheng incidents 1 7 other than what you've already told us? 1 8 A. Well, what was in the medical 1 9 literature, certainly, what symptoms the 2 0 people had, the amount of people that were 2 1 exposed. 2 2 Q. What symptoms did the people 2 3 have? 2 4 A. They had a great number of 2 5 dermatological problems; they had GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1A WATER PCB-00048454 1 chloracne they had deformed nails they 2 had dentitian problems, teeth pr o b 1 e m s . 3 Q . What was the nail defo rmation? 4 A. Beg pardon? 5 Q . Thenail deformation, what was 6 it? 7 A. Pigmentation and curvi n g of the 8 nails. 9 Q Curving , w h a t do y o u m e a n ? 1 0 A . I can't hear Y o u . 1 1 Q - Cu rving w h i c h way , sir ? 1 2 A . I don't r e m e m b e r . 1 3 Q W h at w a s the P i g m e n tat ion 1 4 problem; c h a n g e d color 7 1 5 A . Ye s , f r o m -- it b 1 a c k e n e d . 1 6 Q Wh at we re t h e d e n t i t i a n problems? 1 7 A . Th at w a s in c h i ldre n o n eruption 1 8 of teeth, e i ther erupt i o n too e a r 1 y or 1 9 deformed tee t h . 2 0 Q. What other problems we r e 2 1 associated with the exposure in Yusho and 2 2 Yu Cheng? 2 3 A. An enormous amount of symptoms, 2 4 varied symptoms. 25 Q. When you say an enormo us, you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUI S, MISSOURI 144 WATER PCB-00048455 1 mean a whole variety of symptoms? 2 A . Yes, a whole list of them. 3 Q Live r a i 1 m e n ts reported? 4 A . Not that I r e c a 1 1 . 5 Q How about c a n c e r ? 6 A . N o , not that I recall, either. 7 Q - When is the last time you had 8 occasion to re view the reported symptoms 9 from the Y u s h o and Yu Cheng incidents? 1 0 A . Six or eight months ago. 1 1 Q What was the occasion that you 1 2 reviewed it? 1 3 A. I think it was during a 1 4 deposition. 1 5 Q. Someone showed you a list of the 1 6 symptoms? 1 7 A . No, I went home and looked at it. 1 8 Q . So, you hav e a library at home of 1 9 reference mater i a 1 re garding -- 2 0 A . Not a great -- I wouldn't 2 1 consider it a 1 ibrary , but I have reference 2 2 material on P C B ' s . 23 Q What was t h e source document you 2 4 went to during that d eposition six or 25 eighth months ago? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 14 5 WATER PCB-00048456 1 A . The Journal of Occupatio n a L 2 Med i c i n e . 3 Q D o y o u remem ber the numb er of 4 t h a t jour n a 1 th at y o u looked at? 5 A . No . But i t was sometime in the 6 ear 1 y '70 ' s . 7 Q S o , i t w a s a journal rep orting o 8 s y m p t o m a t o 1 o g y from a contemporane o u s 9 per i o d to the e x p o s ure ? 1 0 A . T h a t is c o r r e c t . 1 1 Q H a v e you loo ked at anyth i n g that 1 2 has been p u b 1 i s h e d m o r e recently r egarding 1 3 the study o f t h o s e two incidents ? 1 4 A . Yes. I've seen translations of 1 5 them, various articles by Japanese authors 1 6 that were subsequently published in the 1 7 Journal of Occupational Medicine. I don't 1 8 know where these came from. They were 1 9 Japanese articles, and I can't tell you the 2 0 dates of them. 2 1 Q. You can't tell me the authors? 2 2 A. No, I can't tell you the authors. 2 3 Q. What would be the most recent 2 4 article that you read a translation of, can 25 you tell me? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 46 WATER PCB-00048457 1 A . I can't answer that. 2 Q Anyth ing published i n the '80's? 3 A . Yes, they were in the ' 8 0 ' s , I 4 believe. but I ' m not certain o f the date. 5 Q. Any new or different symptoms 6 being reported in the late '80's from those 7 reported in the early '70' s ? 8 A. Not that I can recall. I think 9 there was a lessening of the symptoms. 1 0 Q. Was that listing apparently the 1 1 same as the -- 1 2 A . Lessening . 1 3 Q I'm sorry. Lessening of 1 4 symptom s ? 1 5 A . Lessening of symptoms . 1 6 Q . That is, tha t the people over a 1 7 period of time were ge tting better? 1 8 A . Better . 1 9 Q . Or that less symptoms were 2 0 a s s o c i a ted, which? 2 1 A . They were ge tting better, 2 2 Q To your know ledge, did any people 2 3 who allegedly ingested the oil in the Yusho 2 4 or Yu Cheng incidents die? 2 5 A. There were d eaths reported, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 147 WATER PCB-00048458 1 Q - Death s , that is, asso 2 the i n g e s t i o n ? 3 A . I don ' t know what you 4 ass o c i a t e d . So m e of the people 5 i n g e s ted the m a ter ial died. Wh 6 die d o f traffic a c cidents or wh 7 die d o f , quote, n a tural causes 8 I d o not know. w h e ther it was a 9 effect relationship between the ingestion 1 0 of the oil and their deaths. 1 1 Q. Well, that's exactly what I'm 1 2 asking you. You're saying you don't know 1 3 whether there was ever established any 1 4 cause and effect relationship between the 1 5 ingestion of the oil and anybody's death? 1 6 A. Yes, sir, that's my opinion. 1 7 Q So , obviously, some peo 1 8 died, but as f ar as your knowledg 1 9 concerned. you don't know why? 2 0 A . I do n't know what? 2 1 Q Why those people died? 2 2 A . N o , I don't know why t h 2 3 Unless they were listed as suicides or 2 4 something like that, there may be some 2 5 definite causes given, but -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 A WATER PCB-00048459 1 Q We had been talking about the 2 testing that you had ordered done, and we 3 had been talking about testing that you had 4 had done, both acute testing and some 5 longer term testing at the University of 6 Cincinnati in the mid ' 5 0 1 s , do you recall, 7 sir? 8 A . Yes, I do recall. 9 Q As I recall, and you'll cor r e c t 1 0 I ' m wrong, please, at that time you 1 1 were ordering some studies done because of 1 2 some reports dealing with leaking PCB's in 1 3 PCB's used as hydraulic fluid in the die 1 4 casting industry? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q . And the exposure of those PCB's 1 7 to high temperature metal surfaces and the 1 8 resultant apparent vaporization or 1 9 transformation of the substance, and you 2 0 wanted to study the effect on humans, is 2 1 that correct? 2 2 A . That 's correct. 23 Q Tell me about those studies; what 2 4 you do? 2 5 A . What did I do? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 149 WATER PCB-00048460 1 Q Yes. 2 A . What was done by the p e o pie who 3 did it? 4 Q What did you d o , first. and then 5 what was done by others a t your be h e s t ? 6 A . I we n t up to D r . Joseph Treo n an 7 said her e ' s o u r problem 8 Q D o c t or who? 9 A . Treo n , T-r-e-o-n . 1 0 Q Treon? 1 1 A . That ' s c o r r e c t . 1 2 Q W h e r e is he. the U n i v e r s i ty o f 1 3 Cincinna t i ? 1 4 A . He ' s dead now , h e was at the 1 5 Universi t y of Cincinnat i . 1 6 Q And what did you tell Dr . T r eon? 1 7 A. I said, "There is a possibility 1 8 that some people are liable to be exposed 1 9 to PCB's after being dropped on hot metal 2 0 surfaces, what's liable to happen?" He 2 1 said, "Well, we'll check it out." So, we 2 2 arranged for a rather mixed bag of animals, 2 3 guinia pigs, rats, dogs, mice, and exposed 2 4 them to fumes generated by dropping PCB's 2 5 on metal up to five or six hundred degrees GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 e; fl WATER PCB-00048461 1 fahrenheit, I believe. I'm not sure of the 2 temperatures. And he exposed them for 3 varying periods of time. 4 Q. Who developed the protocol for 5 these tests? 6 A. Dr. Treon, in conjunction with 7 myself . 8 Q. Do you recall what was your input 9 into this protocol? 1 0 A. My input was that, the basis why 1 1 I needed the testing done. And I said 12 these are the types ofexposures that 1 3 work e r s are 1 i able t o h a ve , s o t h a t he took 1 4 that and d e s i g n e d t h e pr o t o col. 1 5 Q Yo u say y o u t o 1 d him the type s of 1 6 exposures; what did you tell him? 1 7 A. I said that there is going to be 1 8 a possibility that PCB's, hot, could be 1 9 dropped on hotter metallic surfaces. 2 0 Q. So, the -- I'm sorry. 2 1 A. And that people can be exposed to 2 2 X amount of this material, find out what 2 3 amount is safe. 2 4 Q. So, you first started off with 2 5 the proposition that the PCB fluid would be GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 151 WATER PCB-00048462 1 hot , i s that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What do you mean by hot? 4 A. Well, hot is hot. I mean, you 5 mean how hot? 6 Q. A hotday can be 80 degrees, but 7 what were you talking about when you were 8 talking about hot fluid? 9 A. Two to threehundred degrees F. 1 0 Q. Okay. So, when you said hot 1 1 fluid, you were talking in that range? 1 2 A. Presumably. I'm not certain of 1 3 that temperature. 1 4 Q. Well, I'm not going to hold you 1 5 to the exact details of something that 1 6 happened 35 years ago. 1 7 A. It was over the boiling point of 1 8 water, which is 180 degrees F, that's as 1 9 close as I can get. 2 0 Q . Now -- 2 1 MR. MALIN: It's 212 degrees. 2 2 A . 2 12. 23 MR. COHEN: Well, there is 32 2 4 degrees difference here. Which one are we 2 5 going to go with. Doctor? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 WATER PCB-00048463 1 A . I'm not certain. 2 Q . 2 12 degrees fahrenheit for the 3 boiling point of water or 180 degrees 4 fahrenheit? 5 A. It could be either. It was 6 probably 212. 7 Q . 212. Under what circumstances 8 could it be 180 degrees? 9 A. I could be wrong, would be the 1 0 circumstance that I would say it was 180 1 1 degrees, that circumstance. 1 2 MR. MALIN: Reduced pressure. 1 3 A. In this instance, I could be 1 4 wrong on the figure of 180, it very 1 5 probably is 212. 16 MR. COHEN : All right, So, it 1 7 was a temperature greater than the boiling 1 8 point of water, whatever that is? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You told him you wanted t o 2 1 presume that the fluid would be he a t e d to 2 2 that point or greater? 2 3 A. That was not the problem . The 2 4 problem was it will be dropped on metal 2 5 which has a temperature -- which will be GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 153 WATER PCB-00048464 1 having a temperature of four or five 2 hundred degrees fahrenheit . I t was a 3 problem of the heat -- of the temperat 4 of - - t h e fluid itself was not the main 5 thrust of the experiment, the main thrust 6 of the experiment was what happens when you 7 drop this PCB fluid, whether it's 180 or 8 212 degrees, on to a metal object that's 9 500 degrees, what happens then. 1 0 Q. Well, I appreciate your further 1 1 explanation. Doctor. I hope you won't get 1 2 impatient with me, but you'll have to 1 3 understand, I'm trying to learn what was 1 4 your thought process at that time by asking 1 5 you a series of questions. And your 1 6 responses are helpful in giving me that 1 7 information. 1 8 A. Thank you. 1 9 Q. The main thrust, then, was not 2 0 the temperature of the PCB fluid, but, 2 1 rather, what would happen when it struck an 2 2 even hotter surface? 2 3 A. The thrust of the experiment, 2 4 correct. 2 5 Q. Nonetheless, you wanted Dr. Treon GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 S. 4 WATER PCB-00048465 1 to start off with the premise of the fluid 2 being heated somewhere between 200 and 300 3 degrees F? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q . And then you -- 6 A . But that really did not make a 7 great deal of difference . Because the 8 question was what happens when t h i s hits 9 metal at 500 degrees. 1 0 Q. The metal surface being heated to 1 1 thirty-five hundred degrees? 1 2 A. That's correct. 1 3 Q. Would any temperature have made a 1 4 difference, in your judgment, at that time, 1 5 any temperature of the PCB fluid? 1 6 MR . MALIN : I object t o the form 1 7 o f the quest ion, becau s e I don ' t u n d ers tand 1 8 i t . I f you think you understa n d i t -- 1 9 HR. COHEN: Let me back up. 2 0 Doctor. You said that you didn't think 2 1 that the temperature of the fluid made that 2 2 much difference, two to three hundred 2 3 degrees; how about if the temperature of 2 4 the fluid was 600? 2 5 A. Certainly, it would have, it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 155 WATER PCB-00048466 1 would have made a difference. Because it 2 would vol atilize, there would be vapors 3 given off regardless of the temperature of 4 the metal object that it impinged upon, 5 Q that there is a difference, 6 depending what the t mperature was, but 7 at two to three hundred degrees you weren't 8 concerned about the temp erature, is that 9 right? 1 0 A . D i d n ' t s a Y I w a s n ' t CO n c e r n e d . I 1 1 said the pro b 1 e m t h a t I was t r y i ng t o 1 2 investigate was w h a t w i 1 1 happen when you 1 3 put this on metal a t tern per a t u r e s o f 5 0 0 1 4 degrees. If we s t a r t a t 8 0 d e g r e e s o r 1 5 start at 180 degree s o r 2 1 2 d e g r e e S , that 1 6 would not ma k e any d i f f e r e n c e to m e a s long 1 7 as we're goi n g to b e d r o p p i n g t h i s o n t o 1 8 500 degree h eated m e t a 1 . 1 9 Q . At what p oint would the 2 0 tern of the PCB fluid have made a 2 1 difference t o you? 2 2 M R . MAL I N : I think he's already 2 3 answered tha t quest ion. 2 4 MR . COHEN : Well, he said to me 2 5 at 600 degrees it w ould make a difference GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 56 WATER PCB-00048467 1 because the fluid would volatilize I m 2 trying to find out at what point it wo u 1 d 3 make a difference. Would it be the 4 temperature at which thefluid would s tart 5 to volatilize. Doctor? 6 A. The temperature -- if the f 1 u i d 7 volatilized, there were some vapors gi v e n 8 off at 180 degrees, there would be a 9 certain exposure which would be additi v e to 1 0 that given off if the 180 degree mater i a 1 11 dropped on an object of 500 degrees. So, 1 2 it really was not of great serious 1 3 consequences to me whether it was 200 1 4 degrees, 1 0 0 degrees, as long as it w a s 1 5 going to b e heated up to 500 or 6 0 0 d e g r e e s 16 F . 1 7 Q . What about the temperature of the 1 8 surf ace that you expected the fluid t o 1 9 str i k e , did that temperature matter t o you? 2 0 A . I didn't hear your final Ph rase, 2 1 Q . Did the temperature of t h e metal 2 2 surf ace that the fluid was to s t r i k e , was 23 that imp ortant to you? 2 4 A . Certainly, it was. 2 5 Q Okay. What temperature r a n g e did GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 157 WATER PCB-00048468 1 you want the doctor to test with? 2 A . I wanted him to t e s t it at around 3 500 degrees. b e c a u s e that was the 4 information I had. that t h a t was the 5 temperature of the material coming out of a 6 die casting machine. 7 Q. So, again, you were now giving 8 him a parameter to work within that was 9 from information that had been given to you 1 0 from engineering. customers, whatever? 1 1 A . That's correct . 1 2 Q . 5 0 0 or 600 degrees fahrenheit for 1 3 the surface of the metal was not someth i n g 1 4 that you independently selected? 1 5 A. No, it was not. 1 6 Q. Did he conduct the tests? 1 7 A. Yes, he did. 1 8 Q. What, generally, were the results 1 9 of the test? 2 0 A. The results were that he came out 2 1 with a figure that five-tenths of a 2 2 milligram per cubic meter for Aroclor 1254 2 3 was a safe level for an 8 hour day, and 2 4 ! that one milligram per cubic meter of air 2 5 was a safe level for -- I'm not sure GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 158 WATER PCB-00048469 1 w h e ther he used 1242 or 1248 , w a s also a 2 s a f e level. 3 Q Did he do tests wi t h s u b s t a n c e s 4 o t h er than 1242 and 1248? 5 A . I don' t think he d i d . 6 Q . Did he detect -- 7 A . 1 2 4 8 ? He did 54. He d i d 12 5 4 , 8 and I ' m not sure whether he did e i ther 12 4 2 9 o r 1 2 4 8 , it's in his -- we' v e g i v e n y o u 1 0 the reports. I'll be happy to look at it 1 1 and tell you what he was working with. 1 2 Q. Now, let me ask you this, his 1 3 report contained certain conclusions, is 1 4 that right? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . And i n order to reach those 1 7 conclusions, D r . T r e o n , I assume , had 1 8 developed a certain amount of data? 1 9 A. A certain what? 2 0 Q. Data? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q. He did his tests, he made 2 3 observations, he recorded his observations, 2 4 and that recordation of his observations 2 5 was accumulated, and that was the data upon GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI t e; q WATER PCB-00048470 1 which h e based h i s conclusi o n s , is that 2 right? 3 A . Yes, s i r . 4 Q Did you get the d t a ? 5 A . He r a n the experi e n t s , he got 6 the d a t a from t a k ing temper tures a t 7 levels, a n d ex per imental -- 8 Q I ' m ask ing you, d d you get the 9 data? Yo u got t h e report. id you get t h 1 0 data? 1 1 A . Mean i n g the raw d t a ? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . No , I d id not. 1 4 Q In a n y of the tes ts that you 1 5 ordered o v e r the years, did you get the raw 1 6 data? 1 7 A . No . I don't beli eve I did. That 1 8 is not t h e way i n dependent toxicological 1 9 i n v e s t i gators w o r k. They s end you the 2 0 c o n c 1 u s ions. I f you wanted , we had people 2 1 go up t o these v a rious plac es and see the 2 2 experim e n t s in progress, wh ile they were in 23 ! progres s . But w e did not - - I certainly 2 4 didn't read t h e raw data. I didn't look at 25| it . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | i a. n WATER PCB-00048471 1 Q Without regard t o whether you 2 read it or not, sir, did you ask to receive 3 as part of your report from your 4 independent contractor who was performing 5 these tests the raw data that they were 6 developing? 7 A . No, I did no t . 8 Q Would it be fair to say, then, 9 your files -- and when I speak of 1 0 yours, I ' m s p e a k i n g , n o w, of Mon santo ' s 1 1 f i 1 e s -- do no t c o n t a i n the raw data that 1 2 the e x p e r i m e n t o r s d e v e loped? 1 3 MR . MALIN : I object t o the form 1 4 o f that q u e s t i on. You 're asking him 1 5 gen e r a 1 1 y with respect to every conceivable 1 6 t e s t that may have eve r been don e , I don't 1 7 k n o w that w e ' v e e s t a b 1 i s h e d -- 1 8 M R . COHEN: Let's focu s on the 1 9 t e s t s t h a t the Doctor requested. 2 0 A . W h i c h Doctor? 2 1 Q You, sir. 2 2 A . Okay . What was your q uestion? 2 3 Q F o c u sing on the tests that you 2 4 requested, sir, from the independent 2 5 laboratories, whether you ever obtained as GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 16 1 WATER PCB-00048472 1 part of the report of the tests the raw 2 data that the experimentor had developed? 3 A. I think the answer to that is I 4 do not recall receiving the raw data. 5 Conceivably there may have been a case when 6 I did, but I do not recall any. 7 Q. Did you enter into written 8 agreements with these laboratories for the 9 work they were doing for you? 1 0 A. It varied. I don't think it was 1 1 formalized in a contract. When we worked 1 2 with the University of Cincinnati, I 1 3 believe the university had a contract, how 1 4 much it would be paid, and it was really a 1 5 financial arrangement. It wasn't a 1 6 question of you're going to use this many 1 7 animals or this species of animals, we did 1 8 not do that, it was mostly from a budgetary 1 9 point of view. 2 0 Q. In the course of your experience 2 1 in dealing with independent contractors, 2 2 did you ever specify to the experimentor 2 3 the species of animals that you wanted to 2 4 have tested? 2 5 A. Yes, I may have. Because some GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 2 WATER PCB-00048473 1 animals are suscep t i ble for -- or 2 appropriate for certain types of 3 experiments. You do not do skin testing on 4 a rat, because there is an awful lot of 5 skin on it, you use a rabbit. Other types, 6 the government would demand two different 7 species; one, a rodent, one, a non-rodent, 8 so we would talk to the laboratory and say 9 we want these two different species run. 1 0 Q. So, when the government gave a 1 1 particular requirement, you would pass that 1 2 on? 1 3 A. Well, it wasn't a requirement in 1 4 all cases, it was advice. Because before 1 5 we started on any extensive period of 1 6 investigation, even if this was not 1 7 required by the government, we often went 1 8 down to the government and said this is 1 9 what we're going to do, have you got any 2 0 ideas about it. 2 1 Q. Who in the government would you 2 2 see? Let's start, first, what department? 23 A. Food and Drug Administration. 2 4 Q. During this time period, sir, 2 5 from 1936 to 1955, were you, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 fi 3 WATER PCB-00048474 1 manufacturer Monsanto, required by the 2 Food and Drug Admin istration of the 3 Governmen t of the United States required to 4 keep any files that reflected your user's 5 experienc e with the substance in question? 6 A . From ' 3 6 to '55? 7 Q Yes. 8 A . No . Not that I know of. 9 Q - Were you required by the Food and 1 0 Drug A d m i nistration of the Government of 1 1 the United States to maintain any files 1 2 that reflected adverse reactions or 1 3 experience to the substance that you were 1 4 manufacturing? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q. Subsequent to 1955, and during 1 7 the tenure of your employment with 1 8 Monsanto, did the Food and Drug 19 Administration of the Government of the 2 0 United States require you to maintain files II 2 1 that reflected either user experience or 2 2 adverse reactions to any of the products 2 3 that you manufactured? 2 4 A. I cannot answer -- to answer 2 5 that, I will have to say no, they did not, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 6 4. WATER PCB-00048475 1 although in the latter years 19 7 4 about 2 the time I was leaving, either the 0 S H A may 3 have requested employee files to be kept 4 who were exposed to particular chemicals. 5 But I'm not familiar with the chemicals 6 they asked for, or whether we were 7 manufacturing the particular product at 8 that time. 9 Q. Well, I asked you about the Food 1 0 and Drug Administration, you mentioned 1 1 OSHA. Let me expand my previous inquiry. 1 2 From '36 to '55 did any other agency of the 1 3 federal government ask you to maintain 1 4 files reflecting either adverse reactions 1 5 or user experience of any product you 1 6 manufactured? 1 7 A. Other than what, OSHA? 1 8 Q. Other than FDA? 1 9 A. Well, first of all, the FDA never 2 0 did, to my knowledge. 2 1 Q. You told me that. I asked about 2 2 any other agency. 2 3 A . I said OSHA may have. 2 4 Q You were te 1 1 i n g me a b o u t 2 5 subs e q u e n t to '74 . I ' m ex p a n d i n g this to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j 165 WATER PCB-00048476 1 include all other agencies sir. 2 A. Well, I did not say OSHA 3 subsequent to '74, I said OSHA may have 4 asked around the time of my retirement, it 5 may have been in 1973 or '74, they may have 6 had a request that individuals -- that 7 companies who had individuals working with 8 certain products keep the medical records 9 for an indefinite period of time. 1 0 Q. I'll accept that correction. I 1 1 didn't mean to mischaracterize your 1 2 testimony, sir. Other than with respect to 1 3 the exception that you've given us 1 4 rega rding OSHA and certain employee files. 1 5 and without regard to when that occu r r e d , 1 6 did any other agency of the Governme n t of 1 7 the United States, from 1936 to the time 1 8 you retired, require you to maintain files 1 9 reflecting either user experience or 2 0 adverse reactions to any product that you 2 1 manufactured? 2 2 MR . MAL IN : I'm going to object 23 to the form of the question on the grounds 2 4 that it isn't clear that you've established 2 5 whether or not he had any respsonsibility GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 166 WATER PCB-00048477 1 forkeeping any such files or if he would 2 be the person who would have any knowledge 3 with respect to whether or not this data 4 was kept or required to be kept. 5 MR. COHENi Why don't you tell me 6 what you know about any requirements? 7 A. To the best of my knowledge, with 8 the one exception that I gave you about 9 OSHA, I have no recollection of any 1 0 government agency whatsoever asking me to 1 1 retain files, or asking anyone in Monsanto 1 2 to retain medical files of our employees or 1 3 our customer complaints. 1 4 Q. At any time in the course of your 1 5 tenure of employment with Monsanto, did 1 6 Monsanto have an individual who was 1 7 designated as a government compliance 1 8 officer who was charged with the duty alone 1 9 or in connection with any other duties of 2 0 their employment to maintain documentation 2 1 requested by the government? 22 A. I cannot answer that. They may 2 3 have had people in the agricultural 2 4 department, where they were making 2 5 agricultural chemicals, but as far as the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 167 WATER PCB-00048478 1 medical department, I knew none of it, and 2 I knew of no person on the table of 3 organization that was listed as a 4 compliance officer. 5 Q . Now, you said the agricultural 6 department -- 7 A. Of Monsanto. 8 Q. Was the agricultural department 9 in any way involved in the manufacture of 1 0 PCB's? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q. Was that still under the organic 1 3 division? 1 4 A. Well, as I said, we went through 1 5 several reorganizations, I think it was 1 6 Monsanto Chemicals Company, or something 1 7 like that at that time. 1 8 Q. So, you're saying you don't know 1 9 the identity of any individual who was a 2 0 government compliance officer? 2 1 A. That's correct. 2 2 Q Now, you say that you don't know 2 3 of any requirement t o maintain these 2 4 records, and you do not know of the 25 existence of any government compliance GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | I68 WATER PCB-00048479 1 officer; can you tell me who in Monsanto 2 to your knowledge, sir, would know the 3 answer to my previous question about 4 government requirements with respect to the 5 maintenance of records? 6 A . I would not know. 7 Q . How about your general counsel's 8 office, would they be aware of that? 9 A. Well, you asked me if I kn'ew. If 1 0 I had to find out, I would ask the legal 1 1 department, say what about this. 1 2 Q . You talked about OSHA may have 1 3 required you to maintain files on certain 1 4 employees; do you know if that was done? 1 5 A. I'm not certain of the date. I 1 6 thought it was towards the end of my 1 7 employment by Monsanto. 1 8 Q. Do you recall seeing any such 1 9 employee files? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of the question. I don't know what you 2 2 mean by such employee files. 2 3 MR. COHEN: As he described 2 4 earlier. Doctor, you know what I'm 2 5 speaking of, don't you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 169 WATER PCB-00048480 1 A . Well they may have come out with 2 a r e g u 1 a t ion for anybody t h a t w a s expo s e d 3 t o a s b e s t os, keep their m e d i c a 1 files for 4 2 0 o r 3 0 years or until the Y ' r e dead. But 5 I c a n not tell y o u when t h a t cam e out. But 6 it came out sometime -- whether that came 7 out before December 1974 or afterwards, I 8 can't tell you at this time. 9 Q. How about FCB exposure, do you 1 0 recall any directive regarding maintenance 1 1 of employee files for employees who had 1 2 exposure to PCB's? 1 3 A. I recall no such directive. 1 4 Q. Do you know if such files were 1 5 ever maintained? 1 6 A. I can't speak for after 1974. We 1 7 had employee records up to 1974. 1 8 Q. You had regular payroll records, 1 9 I'm sure. Did you maintain files of 2 0 empolyees who were exposed to PCB's 2 1 separate and apart from their regular 2 2 payroll records? 2 3 A. I'm talking about medical files. 2 4 We had medical files on all our hourly 2 5 employees. These medical files were kept GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i in WATER PCB-00048481 1 by Monsanto until I left in 1974. Whether 2 they were destroyed afterwards or not, I do 3 not know. At no time did we segregate the 4 PCB employee files from the average wage 5 worker employee of the company. 6 Q. Thank you. And I gather you 7 don't know exactly what data was used by 8 the researchers who you identified earlier 9 who did the studies at Krumraerich, is that 1 0 correct? 1 1 A. No, sir, I do not know. 1 2 Q . Now, other than with regard to 1 3 the advice, as you recall it, given to you 1 4 by the Food and Drug Administration or 1 5 other agencies regarding how to conduct 1 6 these tests, did you ever specify the 1 7 species of animals that were to be utilized 1 8 by your independent contractors? 1 9 A. No, I don't believe I did. I was 2 0 going to an expert in the toxicological 2 1 field, and they were my consultants, and I 2 2 listened to them. 2 3 S o , you -- 2 4 S o , the an s w e r i s n o 2 5 You tended t o f o 1 low GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ) 17 1 WATER PCB-00048482 1 recommendations? 2 A. That's correct . 3 Q. Did they ever recommend the use 4 of particular strains of a particular 5 species? 6 A. Not that I have any recollection 7 o f. 8 (Discussion off the record). 9 MR. COHEN: Other than 1 0 representatives of the Food and Drug 1 1 Administration, were there any other 1 2 governmental agencies who. durin g your 1 3 tenure of employment. you would consult 1 4 regarding types of testing that should 1 5 done? 1 6 A . He talked to members of the 1 7 Department of Agriculture. 1 8 Q I S that with respect to PCB 1 9 products or o ther product lines? 2 0 A . Not with respect to PCB ' s . 2 1 Q Did you speak to any agencies 2 2 whatsoev e r w i th respect to PCB products? 2 3 A . Did I speak to any agency 2 4 whatsoever? 2 5 Q . Yes. Governmental agencies . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 2 WATER PCB-00048483 1 A. Yes the Food and Drug 2 Administration I did. 3 Q. When you talked about FDA before, 4 you were speaking in connection with a PCB 5 product? 6 A . Well , among other t h i n g s . 7 (D i s c u s s i o n off the record). 8 MR . COHEN s Now, you had 9 described the tests that were done by Dr 1 0 Treon at the University of Cincinnati, and 1 1 you had described some certain acute tests 1 2 you had had done by, I believe, local 1 3 laboratories in the mid '5 0 's . Was that 1 4 Younger and -- 1 5 A. Scientific Associates. 1 6 Q. Scientific Associates. Was that 1 7 the extent of the testing that you had had 1 8 done during that time period, that is, the 19 mid ' 50 ' s ? 2 0 A . On PCB's or on anything? 2 1 Q FOB'S. 2 2 A . Yes, sir. 2 3 Q Now, were you doing testing on 2 4 other products that were related to 2 5 FOB'S, that is, quaterphenyls or -- were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 173 WATER PCB-00048484 1 you manufacturing polychlorinated bromides 2 during that time? 3 A . No. 4 Q. How about naphthalenes? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Were you ordering tests on any 7 other chlorinated hydrocarbon products? 8 A. We may have had an acute test run 9 on trichlorobenzene during that time. 1 0 Q . Any other products? 1 1 A . Not that I recall . 1 2 Q . Was Monsanto a t that time 1 3 manufacturing pesticides? 1 4 A . They manufactured parathion, 1 5 which is a n insecticide, yes. 1 6 Q. Is that a chlorinated 1 7 hydrocarbon? 1 8 A. No, not a t all. 1 9 Q. Any other insecticides that may 2 0 have been classified as -- or that were 2 1 classified a s chlorinated hydrocarbons? 22 A . No . 23 Q. DDT? 24 A. They did manufacture DDT, but I 2 5 don't know what -- we manufactured it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 174 WATER PCB-00048485 1 during the war and we stopped it a couple 2 of years after the war. I had forgotten 3 all about DDT. 4 Q Any other of t h o s e products, DDD, 5 A1 dri n? 6 A . Beg pardon? 7 Q A1drin? 8 A . No. The only insecticides we 9 manufactured were parathion / 1 0 methy 1 parathion and DDT 1 1 Q And I gather you didn't order any 1 2 tests on DDT? 1 3 A . No. 1 4 Q. Where was the DDT manufactured, 1 5 to your knowledge? Strike that. Was DDT 1 6 manufactured either at Krummerich or at -- 1 7 what's the other one, Anniston? 1 8 A. It wasn't manufactured at 19 Anniston. It may havebeenmanufactured at 2 0 Krummerich, I'm not certain. 2 1 Q. Anniston and Krummerich, however, 2 2 were the only two plants that ever 2 3 manufactured PCB's in the continental 2 4 United States? 2 5 A. That's correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 175 WATER PCB-00048486 1 Q . Did you order any tests 2 subs equent to the mid ' 5 0 's ? 3 A. On what? 4 Q. On the toxicol o g i c properties o f 5 PC B ' s ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When was the n ext time after t h i s 8 Dr . Treon contract that you ordered tes t s ? 9 A. Well, we did a cute studies on 1 0 vari ous batches of PCB's during the 20 1 1 year s following 1950, an d we did long t e r m 1 2 test s in the late 1960's a t the industr i a 1 1 3 laboratory test laboratories in Chicago. 1 4 Q. By the way, when you were dealing 1 5 with Dr. Treon on this temperature exposure 1 6 test, were you aware of the presence of 1 7 dibenzofurans in the product at that time? 1 8 A. No, I was not. 1 9 Q. Were you aware of any potential 2 0 for producing d i benzofurans by the process 2 1 of exposing the PCB's to high temperature? 2 2 A. No, I was not. 2 3 Q. When did you first become aware 2 4 of the presence of d i benzofurans in the 2 5 product? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 76 WATER PCB-00048487 1 A . Sometime in the late '60's. 2 Q. And what caused that awareness? 3 A. Well, I do not know when the 4 paper by Vos, V-o-s, from Sweden was 5 published, in which he mentioned testing 6 the Monsanto and two other products. I 7 don't know when that was. But, then, 8 either in the late '6 0 's or early ' 7 0 ' s the 9 scientists in Japan brought up the product 1 0 -- the presence of chlorinated 1 1 dibenzofurans in the Yusho oil. That's 1 2 when I became aware of it. 1 3 Q. Do you know if anyone has ever 1 4 determined whether the Monsanto products, 1 5 PCB products tontained, as they went out 1 6 the factory door, quaterpheny 1 s? 1 7 A. I do not know. 1 8 Q. Did you ever request testing be 1 9 done subsequent to your learning about the 2 0 presence of PCDF's in other products to 2 1 determine the existence of or presence of 22 PCDF's in Monsanto products? 23 A. No, I did not. 2 4 Q. Did you have any concern as to 25 whether the PCDF's were present or not? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 177 WATER PCB-00048488 1 A. No, I did not, because we had 2 tested the whole product, and whether that 3 product had one part of PCDF or two parts 4 or six parts, we tested the whole product, 5 so there was no necessity for finding out 6 what the individual ingredients or 7 contaminants of that product are. 8 Q. In other words, your feeling was 9 that because you had done tests on the 1 0 entire substance, the PCB's, and 1 1 established their toxicity information, it 1 2 was not necessary to look for any component 1 3 parts? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Would you consider PCDF's a 1 6 contaminant in the product? 1 7 A. If by your question a contaminant 1 8 is an unwanted ingredient in the product, 1 9 I'd say yes, it's a contaminant. 2 0 Q. I would like to go with your 2 1 definiti o n . 2 2 A . That ' s my definition. also. 2 3 Q During your tenure of employment, 2 4 were you aware of any information that 2 5 exposing PCB's to elevated temperatures GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 78 WATER PCB-00048489 1 under certain circumstances can cause the 2 creation of dibenzofurans in the product? 3 A. Yes. Under certain 4 circumstances. 5 Q. When did you first become aware 6 of that information? 7 A . Late '60' s or ear 1 y '7 0 ' s . 8 Q What were the c i r c u m s t a n c e s that 9 you u n d e r s t o o d had to occur in o r d e r for 1 0 PCDF ' s to be f o r m e d in the produ c t ? 1 1 A . What was the cir c u m s t a n c e s ? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . Pres e n c e of o x y g e n . 1 4 Q And anyth i n g else 1 5 A . That ' s it 1 6 Q Was any e 1 e v a t e d t e m p e r a t u r e 1 7 required? 1 8 A. Yes. I thought that was in your 1 9 first -- 2 0 Q. I asked you, what were the 2 1 circumstances that you understood had to 2 2 be -- 2 3 MR. MALIN: He wants the total 2 4 circumstances. 2 5 A. The total? Heat and oxygen. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 179 WATER PCB-00048490 1 Q. Now, with respect to heat, do you 2 know what temperature was required? 3 A . I'll have to give you some 4 approximations. There is a certain window 5 of about between 300 and 500 hundred 6 degrees F at which, in the presence of 7 oxygen, chlorinated d i benzofurans can be 8 formed. If the temperature goes up past 9 five or six hundred degrees, again, I think 1 0 it's C, I'm not certain, dibenzofurans are 1 1 destroyed. 1 2 Q. How about five to six hundred 1 3 degrees centigrade? 1 4 A. I believe it's centigrade, I'm 1 5 not certain. 1 6 Q. Your first temperature measure 1 7 was three to five hundred degrees F. 1 8 A. I meant C. I'm not -- I believe 1 9 it's F, and maybe both of them were F, I'm 2 0 not certain. 2 1 Q Now, how did you understand the 2 2 oxygen had to be presen t ? 23 A . I don't know what you mean. how 2 4 did I understand the oxygen had to be 2 5 present . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-00048491 1 Let me rephrase that. What was 2 your source of information regarding these 3 factors that h ad to exist for the formati 4 of PCDF ' s ? 5 A . The literature and chemi s t s o r 6 engineer s a t M o n s a n t o . 7 Q Who were the engineers. can you 8 identify any f or me today ? 9 A . Bob Kaley, agai n . 1 0 Q Same guy, K-a-1 - e - y ? 1 1 A . That 's right. 1 2 Q Took his deposi tion last month. 1 3 right? 1 4 A . Beg pardon? 1 5 Q Took his deposi tion last month. 1 6 he's the one Mr. Malin re ferred to 1 7 MR . MALIN: He w o u 1 d n ' t 1 8 necessarily know that. 1 9 MR. COHEN: He said that. Your 2 0 counsel said that a little while ago. 2 1 A . Okay. 2 2 Q. Anyone else that you can identify 2 3 other than Kaley? 2 4 A . Not that I know of. Not that I 25 can remember. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1A1 WATER PCB-00048492 1 Q When would Kaley have told you 2 this about the formation o f PCDF ' s ? 3 A . I haven't the s 1 i g h t e s t idea. 4 Q Prior to '75, i g a t h e r ? 5 A . No, not prior t o '75. 6 Q Subsequent to ' 7 5 ? 7 A . Subsequent to Jan u a r y of '75, 8 yes. But not prior to. t h a t I r e c all. 9 Q You were no lo n g e r an e m p 1 o y e e 1 0 Monsanto when he told you? 1 1 A . That's correct 1 2 Q What informati o n did y o u have 1 3 while you were an employee of Mo n s a n t o 1 4 regarding the formation o f d i b e n z o f u r a n s 1 5 PCB fluid ? 1 6 A . I have no information as to the 1 7 formation of dibenzofurans, 18 Q None? 1 9 A . None. 2 0 Q Would it be fair to say, because 2 1 you had n o informat ion regard i n g the 2 2 presence or formati o n of PCDF ' s , you d i d n ' t 2 3 order any toxicolog i c studies t o b e done t o 2 4 determine the toxicological properties of 2 5 PCDF ' s ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 18 2 WATER PCB-00048493 1 M R . MALI N : That mischaracterizes 2 his testi m o n y . He gave the r e a s o n s why h e 3 didn't f e el it necessary to h a v e that 4 done. 5 M R . COHEN : Now, we w e r e talking 6 earlier a bout the new product , i s that 7 right? 8 M R . MALIN Go ahea d. a n swer the 9 question. 1 0 A . Let' s have the ques t i o n -- this 1 1 interplay has gotten me confu s e d What ' s 1 2 the quest ion. again? 1 3 MR . COHEN: I'm con f u s e d , too 1 4 (The requested port ion o f the 1 5 record re ad by the reporter). 1 6 A . No , that was not th e r e a son a t 1 7 all. The pres ence of, or abs e n c e -- t h e 1 8 fact that I had no knowledge o f t h e 1 9 presence or absence did not i n f 1 u e nee m e , 20 because we had tested the pro duct i t s e 1 f , 2 1 and as far as the parts per m ill i o n 2 2 contaminants were concerned. they did n o t 23 -- they were included in the t o x i city 2 4 testing. We tested the whole pr o d u c t , 2 5 including what may have been i n t h ere. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 83 WATER PCB-00048494 1 Q That was a new product you were 2 testing? Your testing involved the use of 3 new product? 4 A . 0 f n e w produc t ? 5 Q N e w product, new 1 Y manufactured 6 product? 7 A . Th a t ' s correc t . 8 Q Di d you ever d o t e s ting regarding 9 the toxic o 1 o gi c propert i e s o f used P C B 1 0 fluid? 1 1 A. No, sir, I did not. Although, 1 2 there were analytical studies of used PCB's 1 3 that showed no chlorinated dibenzofurans. 1 4 Q. Who did those tests? 1 5 A. They were reported in the 1 6 literature. Some of the state agencies did 1 7 them. 1 8 Q . When did you become famil ia r with 1 9 these analytic studies of used PCB studies 2 0 that showed no PCDF's? 2 1 A. Sometime subsequent to 1975. 2 2 Q. You were not aware of any such 2 3 studies during your tenure of employment? 2 4 A . That is c o r r e c t . 2 5 Q . Have you ever become aware of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 184 WATER PCB-00048495 1 studies that showed the presence of PCDF's 2 in used PCB fluids that have been used in 3 transformers? 4 A. Well, I don't recall whether 5 these reports that I referred to that were 6 carried out by governmental agencies was 7 PCB transformer oil or not. I would assume 8 -- I won't assume anything. 9 Q. Are you aware of the studies that 1 0 were done in the Binghamton, New York 1 1 transformer fires? 1 2 A . Yes, I generally know about 1 3 Q Were PCDF ' s formed the re? 1 4 A . Yes. But that was in the s 1 5 that was not in the transformer fluid 1 6 Q. You said Dr. Kaley was your 1 7 source of information with respect to what 1 8 were the requirements for the formation of 1 9 PCDF's in PCB fluid, is that right? 2 0 A. When you say the requirements, I 2 1 do not know if he explained all the 2 2 requirements, it may have been a series of 23 chemical reactions that he did not tell me 24 about. But he said here are the thermal 2 5 conditions under which PCDF's or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 fl S WATER PCB-00048496 1 dibenzofurans may be -- may occur in the 2 presence of heat and oxygen, and here are 3 the conditions in which -- the temperature 4 conditions at which the chlorinated 5 dibenzofurans are destroyed. 6 Q. What was the occasion that caused 7 you to discuss this matter with Dr. Kaley? 8 A. I think the fires in PCB 9 containing transformers were getting a 1 0 great deal of publicity in the newspapers. 1 1 Q . Why was that an interest of yours 1 2 at that time? 1 3 A . B e c a u s e I was pretty sure that 1 4 somebody would come up and say these are 1 5 Monsanto PCB's, o n account o f we wer e the 1 6 ones that were sell in g the PCB ' s to the 1 7 transformer companies. 1 8 Q . You were no longer with the 1 9 company at the time? 2 0 A . That ' s correct. 2 1 Q. So, what caused you to consult 2 2 with Dr. Kaley? 2 3 A. Because whenever there was a 2 4 forensic situation involving PCB's, I knew 2 5 that sooner or later I would be asked about GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU IS , MISSOURI in/- WATER PCB-00048497 1 them and I wanted to become knowledgeable. 2 Q. So, you were keeping abreast with 3 what the information was in the science 4 regarding PCB's? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And you would contact Dr. Kaley? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Is this in connection with 9 representing or testifying on behalf of 1 0 M o n s anto you c ontacted Dr. Kaley? 1 1 A . No . Because I did not testify i n 1 2 the Binghamton case. I was not involved i n 1 3 the Binghamton case. 1 4 Q. So, neither party called you, 1 5 neither of the parties? 1 6 A. Neither one. 1 7 Q. Does Monsanto make available to 1 8 you their technical and scientific staff 1 9 when you have questions? 2 0 A. Yes. If it's a question that I 2 1 feel and they feel is relevant to both our 2 2 interests, yes. 2 3 Q . Well, speaking of both your 2 4 interests, isn't it fair to say that you 2 5 have an ongoing relationship with Monsanto GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 187 WATER PCB-00048498 1 Chemical Company where you agree to act as 2 a witness testifying on their behalf, 3 should they desire to call you for that 4 purpose? 5 A. No, that is not true. 6 MR. M A LIN : Objection to the 7 question. Answer the question. 8 A. No, it's not, because I have no 9 agreemen t w i t h Mon s a n to. They ca 1 1 m e up 1 0 and say here is t h i s problem, wou 1 d y o u 1 1 care to come out a n d discuss it, I c o u 1 d 1 2 say no. I ' m going t o Europe this wee k , 1 3 forget i t . There i s no agreement w h i c h I 1 4 am force d to t e s t i f y or have any par t i c u 1 a r 1 5 obligati on t o M o n s ant o to testify a s t o my 1 6 opinion or the fac t s in the case. 1 7 Q S o , y ou ' r e saying that you h a v e 1 8 no agreement that obi igates you to t e s t i f y 1 9 on their behalf? 2 0 A. That is completely correct. 2 1 Q. But, you are willing to testify 2 2 o n their behalf? 2 3 MR. M A LIN : I object to the form 2 4 of that question. 25 A. I don't know what you mean by on GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 188 WATER PCB-00048499 1 their behalf . Because I a m not testifying 2 o n their behalf, I am te stifying as to the 3 f a c t s of the case and my opinion in the 4 c a s e . If that's on Mons anto's beha If, 5 fin e . So be it. I f it isn't, so b e it. 6 a1 so . 7 Q You came to th is depositi o n 8 wi 1 1 ing1y ? 9 A . Beg pardon? 1 0 Q You came to th is depositi o n 1 1 wi 1 1ing1y ? 1 2 A . Yes, I did. 1 3 Q . You agreed to appear here today 1 4 and testi f Y? 1 5 A . Yes, I did. 1 6 Q . You were ident ified as a witness 1 7 by Monsanto Corporation, Monsanto Company, 1 8 whatever their name is? 1 9 I have no k n o w 1 edge about that. 2 0 You don't know? 2 1 I don't k n o w . 2 2 MR . MAL I N : I s that a question? 2 3 MR . COHEN : Do you know the 2 4 a n c e s under which you are appearing 2 5 here today and testifying, sir? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 189 WATER PCB-00048500 1 A . N o , sir, I don ' t . Not the legal 2 cir c u m s t a n c e s . 3 Q Have you e v e r t e s t i f i e d a d verse 4 t o the i n teres t s of M o n s ant o C o m p a ny , t o 5 you r k n o w ledge 7 6 MR . MAL IN : I o b j e c t to t h e form 7 o f that q u e s t i on. He ' s air e a d y d i s c u s s e d 8 the con d i t i o n s under w h i c h h e has 9 t e s t i f i e d , and I don' t thin k it s h o u Id be 1 0 p 1 a c e d up on hi m to c h a r a c t e r i z e w h a t i s 1 1 a d v e r s e But you may a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n , 1 2 i f you c a n . 1 3 A . I ha v e test i f i ed i n case s where 1 4 Mon s a n t o was i n v o 1 v e d a n d w h e re juri e s 1 5 d i s agre e d with my p o i n t o f v i e w , a n d that 1 6 may h a v e been very we 1 1 a d v e r s e to 1 7 Mon s a n t o . 18 Q . The result may have been a dverse 1 9 t o M o n s a n t o . But my q u e s t i o n i s , s i r, were 2 0 you eve r c a 1 1 e d to t e s t i f y a n d to e s p o u s e a 2 1 p o s i t i o n contr ary to the i n t e rests o f 2 2 Mon santo? 2 3 MR . M A L I N : I o b j e c t to th e form 2 4 o f that q u e s t i o n . 2 5 A . Yes. I don ' t know exactly what GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ 19 0 WATER PCB-00048501 1 all the interests of Monsanto were in any 2 particular case. 3 Q. Have you ever agreed to offer 4 expert testimony, that is, render an 5 opinion on behalf of a party who is making 6 claim against Monsanto? 7 A. Not that I recall, no, sir. 8 Q. In the cases where you did 9 testify and the jury has disagreed with 1 0 what you said was your point of view, did 1 1 any of those cases involve claims of injury 1 2 from exposure to PCB's? 1 3 A. In the first place, I did not say 1 4 that the jury disagreed with my point of 1 5 view, I said the jury rendered a verdict 1 6 that was not consonant with my point of 1 7 view. 1 8 Q. Okay. Let's deal with those 1 9 cases as you d e s cribe them. Did any of 2 0 those cases i n v o lve claims of a 1 1 e g e d 2 1 injury from expo sure to PCB's 2 2 MR. MAUN : Excuse me. I'll 2 3 object to that question unless you 2 4 characterize what kind of injury you're 2 5 talking about. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU I S, M I S S 0 U RI 1 9i WATER PCB-00048502 1 M R . COHEN I don't care what 2 injury, I don't care if they slipped and 3 fell. 4 MR. MALIN: Personal injury, 5 property damage? 6 MR. COHEN: I said I don't care 7 what the injury is, I don't care if he 8 slipped and -- 9 A. The Scott case that you were 1 0 referring to before, he alleged injuries. 1 1 Q. Yes. But I'm talking about where 1 2 the jury rendered a verdict that was 1 3 contrary to your espoused point of view? 1 4 A. Well, I do not know what reasons 1 5 the jury had for rendering a particular 1 6 verdict. 1 7 Q. What was the verdict in the Scott 1 8 case? 1 9 A. The Scott case was a verdict for 2 0 the defendant. 2 1 Q . I'm talking about cases in which 2 2 there was a verdict for the claimant. Any 2 3 cases in which there was a verdict for the 2 4 claimant where you testified and the 2 5 claimed injury was from PCB's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 <4 0 WATER PCB-00048503 1 A. There was one case in which the 2 man did not allege any injury, but he said 3 he was fearful he had one. 4 Q. What case was that? 5 A. Bad Axe, Michigan. 6 Q. What were the name of the 7 litigants, do you know? 8 A. I don't recallthem. It was two 9 years ago, three years ago. 1 0 Q. Did the claimant in that case 1 1 introduce experts of their own? 1 2 A. I was not there at thetrial any 1 3 more than my own appearance, I did not go 1 4 through the records of the other witnesses, 1 5 so I do not know. 1 6 Q. Did your counsel or the counsel 1 7 for Monsanto advise you that they had 1 8 experts? 19 A. They,meaning the other -- the 2 0 plaintiffs? 2 1 Q. The plaintiffs, yes. 2 2 A. I don't know if he did or not. 2 3 Q. What ailments did the claimant in 2 4 the Bad Axe, Michigan case claim he was 25 fearful of getting? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 193 WATER PCB-00048504 1 A . He was fearful of getting cancer. 2 Q. Any particular type of cancer? 3 A. Any kind. 4 Q. And the jury found in his favor? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Do you know what the award was? 7 A. No,Idon't. 8 Q. What was your opinion in that 9 case? 1 0 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 1 form of the question. What was your 1 2 opinion of that case or what o p i n i o n did 1 3 you give in that case? 1 4 MR. COHEN: Not his opinion of 1 5 that case. I probably know. What was his 1 6 opinion in the case? 1 7 A. My opinion was that -- of the 1 8 case, was that after reviewing the man's 1 9 medical record, after reviewing his alleged 2 0 exposure, there was no connection between 2 1 his -- between any ill health and PCB's. 2 2 Of course, he did not allege any ill 2 3 health. So, as far as my opinion as to 2 4 whether a man should be recompensed for 2 5 worrying that down the road he may get GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 94 WATER PCB-00048505 1 cancer when there had been no reported 2 cases of human cancer caused by P C B , in my 3 opinion. it was a very poor j udg m e n t on the 4 part of the jury. 5 Q. Did this individual demonstrate a 6 body burden from PCB's? 7 A . I do not believe he had any 8 I ' m not certain about that. 9 Q Would it be fair to say. sir. 1 0 that i n the course of your forensi c 1 1 consulting that if you have a question 1 2 regarding any aspect of the science 1 3 pertaining to PCB's, that you can contact 1 4 individuals at Monsanto and they will give 1 5 you information? 1 6 A . I think that's a very broad 1 7 question. I don't think I can answer 1 8 that. Any aspect of PCB ' s , I don't t h 1 9 that's correct. So, the answer is that is 2 0 not fair to say. If there is something I 2 1 feel strongly enough about that I needed to 2 2 prepare myself for depositions or cross 23 examination in fields that I am not up to 2 4 date in, I can ask them and they will tell 25 me about it, if they know it. But to say GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 19 5 WATER PCB-00048506 1 that they would tell me everything the Y 2 know about the intracaci e s o f P C B and P C B 3 case s , that i s not corre c t , I don't t h ink 4 they ' d tell m e . 5 Q. Let me ask you this, did you 6 contact anyone at Monsanto Cor up-to-date 7 information before coming to give this 8 deposition? 9 A. No, I did not. 1 0 Q. Who was your successor at 1 1 Monsanto? 1 2 A . D r . George Roush, R-o- u - s - h . 1 3 Q I s Dr. Rous h still in that 1 4 ion? 1 5 A . N o , he reti red a year ago. 1 6 Q A n d who is Dr. Roush's successor? 1 7 A . I think it' s a Dr. F ri e d e w a 1 d , 1 8 -e-d - e - w - a - 1 - d . 1 9 Q F r iedewald? 2 0 A . Fr iedewald. or Freedwa Id, I'm not 2 1 certain. 2 2 Q Do y o u know his first name? 2 3 A . No , I don't. 2 4 Q What exactly did Dr. Kaley tell 2 5 about the requirem t for the presence GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | WATER PCB-00048507^ 1 of oxygen in order to form PCDF's within 2 the temperature ranges that he had told you 3 about? 4 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 5 form of the question, becaus e I don't 6 u n d e r s t a n d it, or understand how it c an b e 7 an s wered . If you think you d o , a 11 e m p t t o 8 a n s w e r it 9 A . Well, I'm not so s u r e you m e a n 1 0 w h a t you said, exactly. I c an n o t g i v e y o u 1 1 the exact details, but he sa id a t c e r tain 1 2 - - c e r t a in temperatures PCB ' s a re f o rmed 1 3 i n the pr esence of oxygen. A f t e r you pas s 1 4 t h i s part icular window of te m p e r ature and 1 5 r e a c h a n o ther level, the PCB ' s a r e 16 d e s troyed . That's what he t old m e . That ' s 1 7 the gist of what he told me. 1 8 Q Did he say that th e ox ygen had t o 1 9 b e in the form of free oxyge n ? Could i t b e 2 0 i n the f o rm of air, could it b e in t h e form 2 1 o f water vapor, any of those , d o you know ? 2 2 A . No. But the inference was it was 2 3 jus t ox y g en anyplace you can get i t . 2 4 Q That would include w a t e r vapor o r 2 5 air? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 Q *7 WATER PCB-00048508 1 A . That's correct 2 Q. Now, you said that you had done 3 some acute studies on various batches 4 during th e '50 ' s , do you r e m e m b e r t h a t , 5 sir? 6 A . Yes, Ido. I d o r e m e m ber , yes. 7 Q What did you m e a n by v a r i o u s 8 batches? That 's various pr o d u c t ion batches 9 of the m a ter ia 1 ? 1 0 A . That ' s right. 1 1 Q S o , you used v ari o u s p rodu c t i o n 1 2 batches o f the material and had it s e n t out 1 3 to labora torie s and did a c u t e to x i c i ty 1 4 studies? 1 5 A . That is correc t . 1 6 Q What were the lab orato ries 1 7 involved? 1 8 A . S c i e ntific Ass o c i a t'e s or Y ounger 1 9 Laborator Y 2 0 Q And these, aga i n , were t e s t s done 2 1 during th e '50 ' s ? 2 2 A . 0 h , '50's, '60 ' s . 2 3 Q You used Scien t i f i c As s o c i a t e s 2 4 and Young e r s t raight thr o u g h the ' 6 0 ' s ? 2 5 A . Yes. And some o f the '70' s , GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 98 WATER PCB-00048509 1 probably. Now, we started with Scientific 2 Associates. Younger, who was one of their 3 partners, split up, so then most of the 4 cases went to Younger afterwards, although 5 we used both i n t e rchangeably . But the 6 majority o f t h e 1 atter day work was with 7 Younger L a b o r a tor i e s . 8 Q Wh o mad e the selec t i o n of the 9 laboratory? 1 0 A . Be g par don? 1 1 Q Wh o mad e the selec t i o n of the 1 2 laboratory? 1 3 A . E i t h e r I or Mr. W h eeler, w ho w a ; 1 4 administrati v e iy in charge o f t o x i c o logy. 1 5 or one of ou r t O X icologists . We had a Dr 1 6 Hunt there. 1 a ter a Dr. Levi n s k i s . 1 7 Q W h a t i s Dr. Hunt's full n a me? 1 8 A . Wi 1 1 i a m Hunt. And he is d e a d . 1 9 Q . I guess I won't be able to ask 2 0 him any q u e s t i o n s about this 2 1 A. Not today. 2 2 Q. What was his doctorate in, do you 2 3 know? 2 4 A. Pharmacology. 2 5 Q. And he was a toxicologist, then? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 99 WATER PCB-00048510 1 A . Well , h e was -- as I said. i n 2 those day s , ye s , he w a s a toxicologi st from 3 one of t h e p h a r m a c e u t i cal companies; 4 Johnson a n d Jo h n s on, I b e 1 i e v e . 5 Q And D r . Levi n s k i s ? 6 A . G e o r ge Levin skis 7 Q Is h e a live? 8 A . Yes, h e ' s a 1 i v e , and he's working 9 for Monsa n t o . 1 0 Q What w a s his doc torate in? 1 1 A . I do n ' t know 1 2 Q Do y o u know what position he held 1 3 in those days? 1 4 A . Well , h e was t o X icologist a t 1 5 Lederle Labora tor i e s . 1 6 Q So, w h e n he came with you, he was 1 7 a toxicologist ? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q What po s i t i o n do es he hold now? 2 0 A . Beg pardon? 2 1 Q . Do you know what position he 2 2 holds now? 23 A. He holds what now? 2 4 Q . Yes. 25 A. Well, he's still a toxicologist. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 200 WATER PCB-00048511 1 Q. And Mr. Wheeler, who is that? 2 A. He was an industrial hygienist, 3 who was administratively in charge of the 4 paramedical part of our organization. 5 Levinskis and Hunt reported to Wheeler. 6 Wheeler is now dead, also. 7 Q. So, between the four of you. 8 someone would select the appropriate 9 laboratory? 1 0 A . Yes. It was n't a big deal, they 1 1 were both adequate t 0 do what we wanted to 1 2 have done. 1 3 Q And, again, who established the 1 4 protocols for the tests? 1 5 A . Well, the protocols were pretty 1 6 s tandard. There was a standard LD 50 1 7 protocol, there was a standard MLD, that's 1 8 minimum 1 ethal dose for rabbits, for skin 1 9 absorptio n. There was a standard test for 2 0 dropping material in the eye, which was 2 1 standard! zed by the government. And you 2 2 didn't n e ed a protocol to have the animal 2 3 breathe s aturated vapor for X period of 2 4 time. 2 5 Q. You say you did not need a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 9n i WATER PCB-00048512 1 protocol? 2 A. You didn't need a standard 3 protocol. I mean, that was self-evident. 4 what t o d o . 5 Q And, again. you never asked to 6 see and do not recall a t this time 7 receiving the raw data that was produced 8 from the tests? 9 A. Well, now, again, when you say 1 0 raw data, if we get an LD 50, they've got a 1 1 report that shows the animal is exposed to 1 2 10, 12 varying doses by mouth, until -- 1 3 various animals are, not the same animal. 1 4 That is listed in the final report. But, 1 5 then, you derive the LD 50. But if you 1 6 mean by the raw data that they say rat X 1 7 died, weighed this much, we did not receive 1 8 that stuff. 1 9 Q. Whatever data they included in 2 0 the report you had, other than that you 2 1 would not have had? 2 2 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q . Did you have written contracts 2 4 with these laboratories in those days? 2 5 A. I don't think so. GORE R EPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI o r> o WATER PCB-00048513 1 Q. When did you first start using 2 IBT? 3 A . Probably in the early '60's, late 4 '50's , I ' m not sure 5 Q What was the first contact with 6 IBT? 7 A . I think D r. Joe Calandra came 8 down to Monsanto an d talked to me. 9 Q Who is -- 1 0 A . C-a-l-a-n - d - r - a . 1 1 Q His first name? 1 2 A . Joseph. 1 3 Q So, he so licited your business? 1 4 A . That's co rrect . 1 5 Q To your k nowledge, had he been 1 6 doing any work for Monsanto at that time? 1 7 A . No. I w a s the first contact he 1 8 had. 1 9 Q And what services did he offer to 2 0 you? 2 1 A . I can't h ear you. What did you 2 2 say? 2 3 Q What serv ices did he offer to 2 4 you? 25 A . Anything we needed in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ] > n t WATER PCB-00048514 1 toxicology. He had very sophisticated 2 toxicological laboratories up there. And 3 he gave me a list of his customers -- of 4 his c 1 i ents, rather. a lot of the large 5 c h e m i c a 1 companies; A r b y, the PDA, a w h 6 host of people. 7 Q. As I understand it, there 8 ultimatelybecame some question about some 9 of thetesting that IBTwas doing for 1 0 Monsanto not on PCB products, is that 1 1 correct? 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 ofthequestion. , 1 4 A. It wasn't a question. He said he 1 5 understood it. 1 6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that 1 7 some question was raised of some of the 1 8 toxicologic studies that IBT did at the 19 request of Monsanto onproducts not 2 0 involving PCB's? 2 1 A. Yes. I do not know -- yes, 2 2 that's correct, not involving PCB. 2 3 Q Do you know if any ques t i o n was 2 4 ever raised regarding the toxicol ogic tests 2 5 that IBT did on PCB's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 204 WATER PCB-00048515 1 A. I never knew it. It was never 2 raised by Monsanto. It was never raised, 3 to the best of my knowledge, by the Food 4 and Drug Administration, which we gave the 5 reports to at the conclusion of the testing 6 by IBT, and we had talked to the Food and 7 Drug Administration before we started the 8 tests, and said this is what we're going to 9 do, and they said that's fine, that's okay 1 0 with us. 1 1 Q. Well, the questions that were 1 2 raised regarding IBT's procedures on 1 3 non-PCB products came somewhat after your 1 4 inception of the relationship with IBT? 1 5 A. After what? 1 6 Q. You started your relationship 1 7 with IBT? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q Is that right? 2 0 A . I started, yes. 2 1 Q And then questions arose later 2 2 regarding IBT's procedures, is that 2 3 correct? 2 4 A Yes. After I left Monsanto. 2 5 Q After you left Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ( 205 WATER PCB-00048516 1 A. After I left Monsanto. 2 Q. So, that would have be e n after 3 1974? 4 A. After December 1 , 19 7 4 5 Q. In fact, there was a c riminal 6 prosecution of certain in d i v i d u a 1 s 7 associated w ith IBT, was there n o t ? 8 A . T h at is correc 9 Q . I s that Kaplin e r , is that the 1 0 name? 1 1 A . K- a - p-l-i-n-g-e-r. 1 2 Q . Were you called upo n t o testify 1 3 in c o n n e c t i o n with any of tha t c riminal 1 4 1 i t i gat ion? 1 5 A . No , sir. 1 6 Q . Were you ever inter vie wed by any 1 7 law e n f orcemen t authorities i n c onnection 1 8 with that 1 i t i g a t i o n ? 1 9 A . I w a s never intervi ewe d by 20 anyo ne . All I knew about the c a se was what 2 1 I re a d i n the papers, newspap e r s 2 2 Q Did anything that o ecu rred, to 2 3 your knowledge , in any of the t o xicologic 2 4 testing that IBT did on PCB p rod ucts ever 2 5 cause you to have any questio n s about their GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | one WATER PCB-00048517 1 methodology? 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 3 of that question, its marginal relevancy. 4 If you think you understand that question, 5 try to answer it. 6 A. The answer is no, because we had 7 our own toxicologists go up to IBT every 8 month. Dr. Hunt go up. 9 Q. Who was it? 1 0 A. Dr. Hunt. Dr. Levinskis went up 1 1 there after he came on board. I went up 1 2 there, mostly on budgetary matters, but I 1 3 did go through the animal rooms just for 1 4 interest, for intellectual sake, and at no 1 5 time did I have any qualms about the type 1 6 of work they were doing. 1 7 Q. Are you satisfied today that the 1 8 results of the tests that IBT did for you 1 9 in PCB products are accurate and reliable? 2 0 A. Yes. They're accurate and 2 1 they're reliable, because some of them have 2 2 been duplicated by the National C a n c e r 2 3 Inst i t ute, they didn't find any i 1 1 n e s s e s 2 4 or any problems. Kimbrough did some work. 2 5 she found some differences with the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 207 WATER PCB-00048518 1 histology of the livers. There was nothing 2 else found, so I would say that I'm quite 3 satisfied with what happened. 4 Q. At IBT ? 5 A. At IB T. 6 Q With respect to P C B prod u c t s ? 7 A . That's co rrect. 8 Q The matte r s that became t h e 9 subject of the crim inal investigat i o n, were 1 0 the y - - did they i n v o 1 v e tests t h a t you 1 1 had contracted for? 1 2 A . I don't e ven know which o n e s were 1 3 i n v o 1 v e d , because s o m e t i m e s we had - - I 1 4 don 't know, there w ere man y agricu 1 t u r a 1 1 5 t e s t s . We did have - - if we had a n 1 6 agr icultural test. I went along, i f we had 1 7 a - - we had a few pharmac euticals r if we 1 8 had a pharmaceutica 1 test. I may n 0 t have 1 9 g o n e along. I don' t know whether a n y of 2 0 the ones were ones that I had anythi n g to 21 do with. Although in agri cultural c a s e s , 2 2 i f there were any o f those involved. I was 23 i n v o 1 v e d in the ear 1 y days # 24 MR. MALIN: Don't speculat e . 2 5 A. Okay. Sorry. The answer is, I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 208 WATER PCB-00048519 1 don't know. 2 MR. COHEN: There is nothing you 3 can identify for us today? 4 A . N o , I cannot iden t i f y them 5 Q Did a person who was on t h 6 of IBT s u b s e q u ently become an e m p 1 o y 7 Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. He was an employee before 9 h e went up t h ere, and 1 0 aft er he came back 1 1 Q . Who was t h a 1 2 A . Dr . Paul Wr 1 3 Q. Now, when was his tenure of 1 4 employment with Monsanto before he went to 1 5 IBT, do you know? 1 6 A. When was it? 1 7 Q. Yes. 1 8 A. He was a Ph.D that worked in the 1 9 agricultural research department. I do not 2 0 know how long he worked there. But he went 2 1 up to IBT sometime around 1970 or '71, 22 worked up at IBT for two years, came back 2 3 to Monsanto in the medical department as a 24 second toxicologist. By this time Dr. Hunt 2 5 was dead, so he took his place, and that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 WATER PCB-00048520 1 was in '63 or I mean '73 or '74. 2 Q . D u r i n g t h e time period that 3 Wright was with I BT , was IBT doing a n 4 tests on the to x i c o logic properti e s o 5 PCB' s , to your know ledge? 6 A . Yes, they were. 7 Q . Do y o u k n ow which tests i n 8 partic ular they wer e doing? 9 A . No , I don 't remember. I d o 1 0 know. 1 1 Q During that time period, would 1 2 they have been doing tests that you had 1 3 r e q u e s t e d be performed? 1 4 A . Oh, yes. 1 5 Q So, up -1 6 A . I requested all the tests that 1 7 were done by IBT on PCB ' s . 1 8 Q. All the tests that they did 1 9 during your tenure were worked on at your 2 0 request? 2 1 A . That ' s correct , 2 2 Q . Again, did you e v er receive any 2 3 e raw data f r o ra any o f the tests? 2 4 A . Raw d a t a ? 2 5 Q . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 210 WATER PCB-00048521 1 A . No, I did not. 2 Q . Do y ou know where that raw data 3 would be? 4 A. Yes. Listing the animals by 5 number, listin g their weight, listing what 6 happened to th em, listing their doses, yes. 7 Q . D o y ou know where that raw data 8 would be maint a i n e d ? 9 MR . MALIN: If he's got them 1 0 right now, in other words? 1 1 A . Wher e it is now? 1 2 Q . Yes. 1 3 A . I ha ven't the slightest idea. 1 4 Q . 0 t h e r than IBT, were you asking 1 5 any 1 a b o r a t o r y to perform any t o x i c o 1 o g i c 1 6 studies on PCB products during the '60's? 1 7 A . Outs ide of Younger and Scientific 1 8 As sociates? 19 Q. Yes. You had identified the 2 0 starting during the 50''s, and perhaps 2 1 doing work into the '60'' s and even unt 2 2 the ' 7 0 ' s . Anyone else? 2 3 A. No, we did not. 2 4 Q. And how about in the '70's, other 2 5 than those three laboratories. Scientific GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 21 1 WATER PCB-00048522 1 Associates Younger and I BT ? 2 A . No. 3 Q. Doctor, would the five 4 publications that appear here under 5 bibliography be the entirety of your 6 published output? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. Do you have anyother articl e s , 9 any other documents of any kind that a r e 1 0 submitted for publication, but have no t yet 1 1 been published? 1 2 A. No, I have not. 1 3 MR. COHEN: Let's take a fiv e 1 4 minute break. 1 5 (Recess) . 1 6 MR. COHEN: Doctor, we have been 1 7 discussing in today's proceedings thes e 1 8 various tests that you had asked to be 1 9 performed, apparently the tests that w ere 2 0 cooperated with in the mid to late '30 ' s up 2 1 through the early ' 7 0 ' s; is there any way 2 2 you could tell me today in some sort o f 2 3 summary fashion what were the results you 2 4 got from these tests? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I object to the form GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 7l 7 WATER PCB-00048523 1 of that question. If you think you can 2 answer it in a summary fashion, you can 3 attempt to do so. 4 A. Yes. I think the bottom 1 i n e is 5 that PCB is an industrial product th at has 6 a certain amount of toxicity, which is not 7 unique to industrial products. I do not 8 think it's a condition of very -- a 9 product of high toxicity from the 10 industrial point of view. It can be 1 1 absorbed through the skin, it can be 1 2 absorbed by mouth. It has a -- and can be 1 3 absorbed through the lungs. Definit e 1 4 levels -- definite safe levels are 1 5 accepted by the American Conference o f 1 6 Government and Industrial Hygienists , and 1 7 levels in food have been accepted by the 1 8 FDA . 1 9 Q Doctor, by the American 2 0 Conference -- 2 1 A . Conference of Governmental 2 2 Hygienists. 23 MR. MALIN: I think he's asking, 2 4 also, with respect to, you had these tests 2 5 done for worker safety, I think he would GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 2 13 WATER PCB-00048524 1 like to know what your opinion or 2 conclusion is with respect to that? 3 A. The conclusion, furthermore, was 4 that material can be handled safely if 5 simple precautions are carried out. 6 Q. Now, when you say they have a 7 certain toxicity. what do 8 certain toxicity. Doctor? 9 A. Well, it does posess toxicity, 1 0 but everything posesses toxicity. Aspirin 1 1 posesses toxicity. But I said it has a 1 2 level, an acute level of roughly 4 grams 1 3 per kilogram, which is not a particularly 1 4 t e do s e . 11 h a s a safe level in 1 5 p p r o x i m a t e 1 y a hundred parts per 1 6 n the i r diet f o r two ye a r s . 1 7 What h a p p e n s i f that 1 e v e1 is 1 8 exceeded, a hundred parts per million for 1 9 two years? 2 0 A. Beg pardon? 2 1 Q. What happens if a hundred parts 2 2 per million is exceeded in dogs in their 2 3 diet for two years? 24 A. They develop microscopic changes 2 5 in the liver. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUI S, MISSOURI 2 14 WATER PCB-00048525 1 Q Any other changes ? 2 A . Not that I can r e c a 1 1 . 3 Q Any other types of changes ? 4 A . N o , sir. 5 Q Any n e o p 1 a Stic lesi o n s ? 6 A. With 1260 there have been cases 7 of neoplastic lesions. 8 Q. What animals? 9 A. Beg pardon? 1 0 Q. In what animals? 1 1 A. In female -- one gender of rat, 1 2 I don't know which one, Kimbrough found 1 3 some, and I think some Japanese worker 1 4 found some in rats, also. 1 5 Q. And this is PCB's we're talking 1 6 about; 1260, Aroclor 1260? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. Neoplastic lesions in female 1 9. rats? 20 A. I believeit's -- in one gender 2 1 of rat, I don't know whether Kimbrough used 2 2 male or female. 2 3 Q. Do you know where the lesions 2 4 were located? 2 5 A. They were located in the liver. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 15 WATER PCB-00048526 1 Q. Any neoplastic changes found in 2 any other animals in any other organ? 3 A. No, sir, not that I can recall. 4 Q. Any neoplastic changes found in 5 the organs of the involved animals, rats? 6 A. You mean other than the liver? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. These lesions were, I gather, 1 0 deemed to be primary sitelesions? 1 1 A. Yes. But they were -- they did 1 2 not metastasize. 1 3 Q. Over what period of time did they 1 4 not metastasize, sir? 1 5 A. Not in the life-time of the 1 6 animals. In fact, the animals that had the 1 7 lesions lived as long or even longer than 1 8 the control animals. 1 9 Q. Of course, in order to determine 2 0 they had lesions, were they sacrificed? 2 1 A. At the end of their life, yes, at 2 2 the end of t w o yea r s . 23 Q Wha t w o u Id be the life span o 2 4 t h o s e rats a b sent the sacri f i c e , do you 2 5 know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 2 16 WATER PCB-00048527 1 A. Two years, two years two months, 2 something like that. 3 Q. So, you're saying that they were 4 sacrificed, to your knowledge, at about 5 their life span? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And they had neoplastic changes 8 in their livers that did not metastasize? 9 A. That's correct. 1 0 Q. Are you aware of the formation of 1 1 neoplastic lesions in the organs of any 1 2 other species of animals as a result of 1 3 tests? 14 A. Anyother organs besides the 1 5 liver? 1 6 Q. Yes. 1 7 A. Statistically accepted amounts? 1 8 I mean, obviously, if you take a batch of 1 9 rats you are going to get lesions at the 2 0 conclusion of their life span. You're 2 1 going to get malignant lesions. You'll 2 2 also get them in the controls. But there 23 was not any significant excess of any, to 2 4 the best of my knowledge, with the 2 5 exception of the liver in these rats. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 7 WATER PCB-00048528 1 Q Are you talking about to a 2 statisti cally significant degree, is that 3 what you 're talking about? 4 A . That's right. 5 Q Do you know what that means? 6 A . Sure. 7 Q. Tell me what it means? 8 A. It means that if you have a 9 series of animals and you find a certain 1 0 number of tumors in these animals and you 1 1 have a certain equivalent number of control 1 2 animals and you find a certain number of 1 3 the same tumor in these animals, you can 1 4 arrive mathematically at a significant -- 1 5 you can decide whether or not there is a 1 6 significant excess in one case over the 1 7 other. If you flip a penny up in the air, 1 8 it may come up heads five times, but that 1 9 doesn't mean that there is a statistically 2 0 significant increase in heads over tails, 2 1 because if you flip it ten thousand times 2 2 it will come up five thousand heads and 23 five thousand tails. So, there is quite an 2 4 elaborate scientific method to decide 2 5 whether or not any particular lesion is GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 218 WATER PCB-00048529 1 scienti fically valid as to excessnumber. 2 Q Did you study statistics, a 3 statist ical sampling technique as part of 4 your u n dergraduate study? 5 A . No, I did not. 6 Q Did you study it as part of your 7 graduat e work? 8 A . No . 9 Q Have you studied statistical 1 0 samplin g techniques subsequent to your 1 1 c o n c 1 u s ion of your formal educ ation as a 1 2 medical doctor ? 1 3 A . No . But I've talked to a lot of 1 4 statist i c i a n s , and I've talked t o 1 5 e p i d e m i o 1 o g i s t s , s ome may have rubbed off 1 6 on me. 1 7 Q. Would it be fair to say that the 1 8 explanation you just gave about your 1 9 talking with epidemiologists and 2 0 statisticians is the part that rubbed off? 2 1 A. I think so. 2 2 Q When something is found to exist 2 3 to a s t a t istically significant degree , what 2 4 does that mean, do you know? 2 5 A . There is only a certain GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ] 91 9 WATER PCB-00048530 1 likelihood that it can occur by chance. 2 Q . What is that likelihood that it 3 will occur by chance? 4 A. Well, it could vary a great 5 deal. I mean, are you talking about what 6 makes it significant -- statistically 7 significant? 8 Q . Yes. 9 A. Usually, you use the percentage 1 0 that -- there is only a 5 percent chance 1 1 that this can occur by chance. Some people 1 2 break it down lower, it might be only 1 1 3 percent or 2 percent likelihood that this 1 4 can occur by chance. 1 5 Q. So, you would say, then, 1 6 something occurs to a significantly -- is 1 7 a statistically significant degree if it is 1 8 95 percent certain that it does not occur 19 by chance? 2 0 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. And is that part of the knowledge 2 2 of statistical methods that has rubbed off 2 3 on you over the years? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. Now, were the tests that were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 0 WATER PCB-00048531 1 performed at your request done using these 2 statistically significant analytical 3 methods that we're discussing? 4 A. I think the -- I don't think 5 it's fair to say they were performed. The 6 results were subjected to statistical 7 analysis. When we set out, we set out with 8 a large enough number that we hoped we 9 would have survivors that would give us a 1 0 statistically yes or no answer, 1 1 statistically significant yes or no answer. 1 2 Q. What were the longest chronic 1 3 exposure tests that you ever ordered done 1 4 on animals during the forty some years of 1 5 your tenure with Monsanto when you were 1 6 ordering tests done? 1 7 A . With PCB ' s ? 1 8 Q Yes. 1 9 A . Two years. 2 0 Q Was that in rats? 2 1 A . Rats and dogs. 2 2 Q Did the dogs display any evidence 2 3 o p 1 a Stic lesions? 24 A . No . 25 Q Were the dogs sacrifi c e d ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 22 1 WATER PCB-00048532 1 A . Yes. 2 Q At the e n 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q Two years 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q What's t h 7 dogs ? 8 A . Of a dog? 9 Q. And no follow-up was done, 1 0 obviously, because all the dogs were 1 1 sacrificed? 1 2 A . Beg pardon? 1 3 Q No follow-up on the 1 4 b e cause all the dogs w e r 1 5 A . That's correct. 1 6 Q What was the method 1 7 during those chronic tests? 1 8 A. By mouth. 1 9 Q. Ingestion? 2 0 A. Ingestion. 2 1 Q. Now, you mentioned other 2 2 researchers other than the ones that we 23 have been talking about here today. You 2 4 mentioned the Japanese fellow, the name 2 5 didn't come to mind; you mentioned Dr. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 2 WATER PCB-00048533 1 Kimbrough. 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q Any other s that y o u ' r e aware o f 4 who - - I t h i n k you m e n t i o n e d Vos e a r 1 i e r 5 todaY? 6 A . Yes . And there w ere p e o p1e at 7 the National Cancer I n s t i t u t e t h a t did work 8 with 1 2 5 4 , w h i c h is a PCB 9 Q . Did M o n s a n t o at a ny t i m e fund any 1 0 r e s e arch work being done by i n d e p e n d e n t 1 1 scientists? 1 2 A. Does Monsanto at any time do 1 3 what? 1 4 Q. Fund research work being done by 1 5 independent scientists? 1 6 MR. MALIN: You're talking about 1 7 on PCB ' s , FCB - 1 8 MR. COHEN: Yes. 1 9 A. Calandra was an -- at IBT was an 2 0 independent scientist. 2 1 Q. You hired him to do a job for 2 2 you? 2 3 A. Yes. But we funded it. You 2 4 asked about an independent scientist, he 2 5 was certainly independent of Monsanto and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 771 WATER PCB-00048534 1 he was funded by Monsanto. 2 Q. Let's put aside Calandra, which 3 is IBT, Younger, and the Scientific 4 Associates, whatever it was. Let's also 5 put aside the chap who did the work for the 6 Halowax test at Harvard. Other than those 7 folks, did Monsanto fund any research work 8 being done by any other independent 9 scientists? 1 0 A. I do not know of any. 1 1 Q. You certainly were not involved 1 2 in the funding or the agreement to fund any 1 3 independent work? 1 4 A. Up until 1974, if they did, I 1 5 would have known about it, and I do not 1 6 know about it. 1 7 Q. So, in other words, you were not 1 8 involved in it, you don't know of anyone in 1 9 the company who was involved in it, because 2 0 you would have known about it? 2 1 A. Up to the end of 1974. 2 2 Q. Does Monsanto corporation Belong 23 to any trade associations? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. Can you name them for me? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 994 WATER PCB-00048535 1 MR . M A LIN : Chemical 2 Manufacturers Association. That's no 3 secret. 4 A. I know that, but I'm trying to 5 think what names I had. They probably 6 belong to the National Agricultural 7 Chemicals Association. You said the 8 Chemical Manufacturers Association, I was 9 trying to figure out what their last name 1 0 was . God knows how many other ones they 1 1 may belong to. They belong to business 1 2 gro ups. Chamber of Commerce. 1 3 Q. Better Business Bureau? 1 4 A. I don't know what they belong to. 1 5 Q. Did the Chemical Manufacturers 1 6 Association, to your knowledge, fund any 1 7 research by independent researchers 1 8 studying the toxicity of PCB's? 1 9 A . Of PCB's? 2 0 Q . Yes. 2 1 A. Not that I know of. They do have 2 2 their own laboratory now, which was -- 2 3 which was instituted after I left Monsanto. 2 4 Q. Where is that laboratory? 2 5 A. Down in North Carolina, Research GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 225 WATER PCB-00048536 1 Triangle or something like that 2 Raleigh-Durham . 3 Q. Are they doing research on PCB's, 4 do you know? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. So, the only neoplastic lesions 7 that you're aware of as being found to a 8 statistically significant degree in the 9 scientific literature was found from an 1 0 exposure to Aroclor 1260, and those were 1 1 lesions found in the livers of rats, you 1 2 don't recall which gender? 1 3 A. That's correct. 1 4 Q. That was done by Kimbrough? 1 5 A. Yes. And somebody has repeated 1 6 that, but I do not know their name. 1260, 1 7 I believe, is -- I believe is an animal 1 8 carcinogen, yes. 1 9 Q. And is th a t the PCB that you 2 0 believe to be the a n i m al carcinoge n or is 2 1 it the PCDF contami nan t contained therein? 2 2 A. They were g i ven the PCB' s , and 2 3 I'm not certain as t o what the lev el of the 2 4 contaminant in the par ticular PCB was. 25 Q. Do you kn o w the level of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 WATER PCB-00048537 1 contaminant? 2 A. No, I do not. I said I do not 3 know the level. 4 Q. It would have been standard 1260 5 rolling out the door of either Anniston or 6 Krummerich that they would have had? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. And these lesions, to your 9 knowledge, did not metastasize prior to the 1 0 sacrifice of the animals? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. Would you agree ordisagree that 1 3 the toxicity of the substance is the same 1 4 whether the material is absorbed through 1 5 the skin, by ingestion or through the 1 6 lungs? 1 7 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 1 8 0 f t h a t question. 1 9 A You mean ny compound? 2 0 Q PCB ' s . 2 1 A Unless I ndicate otherwise, sir, 22 I ' m on 1 Y talking ab ut PCB's. 23 A All right fine. Will you repeat 2 4 the question? 2 5 (The requested portion of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 007 WATER PCB-00048538 1 record read by the reporter). 2 A. Well r fir s t of all, the acu t e 3 toxicity of th e mat e r i a 1 through the lungs 4 is higher than i t i s when taken by mo u t h , 5 when ingested. The c h r o n i c -- 6 Q. Let' s jus t stop there one m oment 7 if we can. Doc t o .r . I don ' t mean to 8 interrupt you. But when you're talki ng 9 about the acut e t O X i c i t y when absorbe d by 1 0 the lungs, wou 1 d t h at be in vapor for m ? 11 A. Yes. I t ' s got to be breath e d . 1 2 Q. Suspended particles in the air? 1 3 A. Well, they're not particles, it's 1 4 a gas. It' s v o 1 ile, it's a gas. It's 1 5 not a dust that' 1 6 it's not particl 1 7 It's a gas. 1 8 Q. Can the material be -- I guess 1 9 the word I was going to use was vaporized, 2 0 but without turning it into a gaseous 2 1 state, that is, I guess it's -- 2 2 A. You're talking about aerosol, 2 3 like you're spraying Vick's up your nose or 2 4 something like that? 2 5 Q . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MIS SOUR I 228 WATER PCB-00048539 1 A. Yes. But that's not the way you 2 do it. You vaporize a material in these 3 experiments that were done. 4 Q. That's the way the experiments 5 were done? 6 A. They were vaporized. 7 Q. So, in vapor form, absorption 8 through the lungs indicates higher toxicity 9 than either through the routes of ingestion 1 0 or whole skin absorption? 1 1 A. Only from the acute point of 1 2 view. If you get a large amount of the 1 3 stuff in your lungs, you get acute 1 4 pulmonary edema from it, so, in that 1 5 sense. Now, there have not been, to the 1 6 best of my knowledge -- 1 7 Q Please try to explain that for 1 8 me. Are you saying, then, that the higher 1 9 toxicity in the acute absorption state 2 0 through the lungs is the result of large 2 1 quantities being inhaled and causing edema? 2 2 A. Yes. It causes local reaction to 2 3 the pulmonary tissues, to the lung tissues. 2 4 Q. You're not talking about systemic 2 5 toxicity as a result of the inhalation GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 229 WATER PCB-00048540 1 route? 2 A. No. We didn't mention systemic 3 toxicity up to now. You asked toxicity, 4 and I'm saying that acute toxicity is high 5 because of local action on the lung tissue. 6 Q. Okay. Thank you. How about 7 systemic? 8 A. Well, then, of course, you don't 9 get systemic toxicity from high levels, 1 0 because you kill the animal by the high 1 1 levels. As far as the systemic toxicity is 1 2 concerned, I don't think there is any 1 3 comparison that has been identified as to 1 4 the toxicity that results from long term 1 5 feeding experiments and four month 1 6 inhalation testing, which was the extent of 1 7 the chronic inhalation. But it may very 1 8 well have been the same, I don't know. 1 9 Q. Do you agree or disagree that 2 0 from a chronic long term exposure that the 2 1 toxicity through absorption through whole 2 2 skin is the same or greater than the 2 3 toxicity through oral ingestion? 2 4 A. We do not have information as to 2 5 the long term skin absorption in animals. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 0 WATER PCB-00048541 1 Q Do you have the results of long 2 term skin absorption in any organism? 3 A. We have had chloracne occur from 4 long term repeated skin absorption in 5 humans, and nothing else. 6 Q. You've never actually done any 7 toxicity tests on humans, is that right? 8 A. No. But they were -- they had 9 industrial exposures that gave them 1 0 chloracne. 1 1 Q. No toxicity tests were done on 1 2 those humans? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 MR. COX: I object to the form of 1 5 the question. Toxicity tests are not done 1 6 on humans. 17 MR . COHEN Ca n I have the 1 8 w i t n e s s say that? NO t 0 x i c i t y t ests were 1 9 d o n e on humans, is t h a t right? 2 0 A . I am not a w a r e of any toxicity 2 1 tests done on PCB's in humans; certainly 2 2 not under my direction. 2 3 Q. Thank you. And do I understand 2 4 that you're saying that the epidemiologica 1 25 studies that you are aware of do not GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 23 1 WATER PCB-00048542 1 reflect , t o a statistically significant 2 degree, any other toxic reaction in humans 3 as a result of long term chronic exposure 4 through the route of skin absorption? 5 A. You're bringing epidemiological 6 studies -- you brought that up right at the 7 present. If we're talking about 8 epidemiological studies, let's pick the 9 epidemiological study you want to talk 1 0 about. 1 1 Q. I don't want to talk about any 1 2 one in particular, I'm asking you what 1 3 you're aware of. 14 MR. MALIN: I'm going to object 1 5 to the form of that question. All the 1 6 Doctor has testified to -- you're 1 7 mischaracterizing his testimony, because 1 8 all he's said is that -- 1 9 (Discussion off the record). 20 MR. MALIN: All the Doctor 2 1 discussed were experiences and observed 2 2 experiences in workers exposed to PCB's 2 3 who, as a result of that exposure, 2 4 apparently, developed chloracne. That 2 5 could be characterized as an GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 2 WATER PCB-00048543 1 epidemiological study per s e . 2 MR . COHEN: You've made your 3 objection , Mr. M a 1 i n , let me go on with my 4 questions . The w i t n e ss can explain it to 5 me, he's. o b v i o u s 1 y , very conversant with 6 the subje c t . You we re saying before, they 7 got chlor acne and no thing else; those were 8 your word s ? 9 A. That is co r r e c t . 1 0 Q Five m i n u t es ago in this 1 1 depositio n . W as t h a t as a result of your 1 2 knowledge o b t a i n e d f rom observations of 1 3 your own w o r k e r s ? 14 A . No . 1 5 Q Then what is that statement based 1 6 upon? 1 7 A . It's based upon my visit to a 1 8 thermomet er fa c t o r y where they were using 1 9 PC B ' s , so m e p 1 a c e in the east. It was about 2 0 25 years ago. and t h ese workers were making 2 1 thermomet e r s u sing a bellows type 2 2 thermomet e r , w h i c h i s sort of a leather 2 3 sack that c o n t a i n e d the PCB, and they would 2 4 fill this up by putt ing the little sack 2 5 into liquid PCB, and keep doing that, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI D WATER PCB-00048544 1 they developed chloracne. They did n o 2 have anything else. And I said why d o 3 you use some sort of gimmick so they c 4 keep their hands out of this, wh i c h t h 5 proceeded to do, and didn't have any more 6 chloracne. That's what it's based on. 7 Q. So, it's based upon your 8 anecdotal obsrvations? 9 A. It's notanecdotal, it's actual, 1 0 I saw it. I don't know what you mean by 1 1 anecdotal. I'm telling you what I saw. 1 2 That's not anecdotal, that's actual. 1 3 Q. Well, do you present that today 1 4 to be a scientific observation? 15 A. Yes. I observed it, yes. Yes, 1 6 it's a scientific observation. 1 7 Q. Did you repeat it? 1 8 A. You mean did I subject them to 1 9 more exposure when they were doing 2 0 something they shouldn't do? Of course, I 2 1 didn't. 2 2 Q. Or any other persons to some 23 exposure in order to see if you could repeat the experience? 2 5 A. As I told you, I do not accept GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 934 WATER PCB-00048545 1 toxicity testing on humans. and this 2 certainly toxicity testing that you 3 recommend ing, and I did not d o that. 4 Q. Did you follow up with those 5 individuals in the thermometer works to see 6 if they ever developed any furtherailments 7 at a subsequent time? 8 A . I followed up with the 9 manufacturer. Yes, I did. 1 0 Q. And can you tell me how many 1 1 years later did you continue to follow up, 1 2 for how many years? 1 3 A. Less than a year. 1 4 Q. Did you ever ask to see if they 1 5 had body burdens of PCB's? 1 6 A. At this time, methods for 1 7 establishing body burdens for PCB's was not 1 8 inexistence. 1 9 Q. Are you aware of any of the 2 0 science that has been published, in 2 1 scientific journals and otherwise, 2 2 regarding epidemiological studies of 2 3 workers exposed during the course of their 2 4 employment to PCB's? 2 5 A. Yes, I have. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 5 WATER PCB-00048546 1 Q Are you aware of any reported 2 toxic reactions in any of that 3 epidemiologic -- 4 A. There are all sorts -- 5 Q I should fin i s h that. Reported 6 by those epi demiologic s t u d i e s ? 7 MR . MALIN : Would y o u reask the 8 ques tion? 9 (The requested port ion of the 1 0 r e c o r d read by the rep o r t e r ) . 1 1 A . F i rst of all , I don ' t know what 1 2 you mean by toxic reac t i o n s . W o u 1 d you 1 3 e x p 1 ain that one to me ? 1 4 Q . I ' m asking y o u, sir - - and if y 1 5 don' t u n d e r s tand the q u e s t i o n , j u s t tell 1 6 m e , I'll try to rephra s e it. 1 7 A . I cannot -- 1 8 Q I ' m not here to a n s wer question 1 9 that ' s not m y job. I ask and I don't 2 0 ans w er . 2 1 A . My job is to answer q u e s t i o n s 2 2 that I under stand. So , Ido not 2 3 understand. 2 4 Q Th a t ' s all y o u have t 0 tell me. 25 sir. I'll t ry to rest ate it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 23 6 WATER PCB-00048547 1 A. Fine. 2 Q. You are aware that certain 3 researchers have done epidemiological 4 studies on populations of individuals that 5 they believe include persons occupationally 6 exposed to PCB's? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Are you aware of any study that 9 reflects a finding to a statistically 1 0 significant degree of any ailment or 1 1 condition that the researcher connects with 1 2 the exposure to PCB's? 1 3 A . Yes, sir. 1 4 Q . What are the ailments o r 1 5 that you b e lieve the scientific 1 6 shows to b e connected t o 1 7 exposures to PCB's? 1 8 A. In the first place, you used the 1 9 term scientific literature. There has been 2 0 a published epidemiological study which did 2 1 show an increase in rectal cancer in one of 2 2 four groups. The next -- two years later 2 3 they repeated the study and didn't find an 2 4 increase in rectal cancer in any of the 2 5 groups . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , M I S S OUR I 23 7 WATER PCB-00048548 1 Q . Stop, if youwill, please, sir. 2 Who wasthat researcher? 3 A . I can get the name for you 4 tomorrow, I cantell you about it. 5 Q. Good. Would you do that for me? 6 A. Sure. 7 Q. We'll be back tomorrow. 8 A. There have been other 9 epidemiological studies. But there are two 10 peoplewhose job is to go over 1 1 epidemiological studies that are connected 12 with the government. One is Vaneta 1 3 Kimbrough, the woman who has been acting as 14 the point person in thegovernment on PCB, 1 5 she was connected with OSHA and some other 1 6 government agencies, and she has said 1 7 despite laboratory results, with the 1 8 exception of chloracne, there have been no 1 9 chronic illnesses proven to be associated ! 2 0 with an industrial use of PCB. 2 1 Q. She's the same person who found 2 2 the neoplastic lesions in the livers of 2 3 rats? 2 4 A . That ' s right. So, she is an 25 unbiased person. Someone else from NIOSH, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 238 WATER PCB-00048549 1 I think his name was Smith. 2 Q. Smith? 3 A . Smith. I believe it's Smith. He 4 published the same thing. So, these are 5 the individuals that summarized all these 6 epidemiological studies. So, certainly, 7 there are epidemiological studies that show 8 somebody may have had an increase in cancer 9 of the prostate, somebody else may have an 1 0 increase in rectal cancer, but they are not 1 1 accepted by the scientific group, because 1 2 there are about four rules in epidemiology. 13 Q. Can you tell me them? 1 4 A. Yes. One, it must be dose 1 5 related. In other words, the people that 1 6 are exposed twice as much should have more 1 7 of the ill effects you're looking for than 1 8 the people who haven't been. Number two, 1 9 there must be no confounding factors. That 2 0 means if you are checking to see the 2 1 prevalence of diabetes, and you don't take 2 2 into account heredity and obesity, the 23 study is no good. Number three, it must be 24 reproducab 1 e . If one person gets brain 25 tumors and the other one gets gout and the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 999 WATER PCB-00048550 1 other one gets heart disease those are not 2 reproduca b 1 e . What's the fourth 7 I ' 11 3 think of the fourth on e . Dose r e 1 ate d , no 4 confoundi ng, I'll thin k of the f o u r t h one 5 as we go along. 6 Q. Now, you are not an 7 epidemiologist? 8 A . No . S 0 , that's why I ' m 9 the viewp o i n t o f the two g o v e r n m e n 1 0 epidemiologists. 1 1 Q. So, what you're telling me, 1 2 basically, is what you understand the 1 3 viewpoint of these other individuals to be? 1 4 A. No. I'm saying what they wrote. 1 5 It's not my understanding, they wrote this 1 6 in published articles. 1 7 Q. But you're telling me what you 1 8 believe to be what they wrote, is that 1 9 right? 2 0 A. I'll show you the article. 2 1 Q. Okay. Fine. 2 2 A. I know what they wrote, it's not 2 3 what I believe. 2 4 Q. Will you do that? You'll show me 2 5 the articles? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 0 WATER PCB-00048551 1 A . Yes. Sure, I'll show them t o 2 you. Give me a piece of paper to wri t e 3 down these things I promise. 4 Q. Your counsel is right here, h e 5 can write them down, he's good at tha t . 6 MR. MALIN: We've already g i v e n 7 them all this stuff. 8 MR. COHEN: I didn't bring them 9 all to St. Louis. 1 0 (Di scussion off the reco r d 1 1 M R . COHEN : Can you tell m the 1 2 fourth? 1 3 A. Statistically significant. 1 4 MR. MALIN: Observed over 1 5 expected? 1 6 A. Well, they're well known ru 1 e s of 1 7 epidemiology. 1 8 MR. MALIN: We gave them th o s e , 1 9 too. 2 0 MR. COHEN: Did you study 2 1 epidemiology in your undergraduate wo r k in 2 2 college? 2 3 A . No, sir. 2 4 Q Did you study it in medical 2 5 school? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 24 1 WATER PCB-00048552 1 A. I don't think there was a direct 2 course in it, no. 3 Q. Have you taken any course work in 4 a non-degree program subsequent to your 5 graduation? 6 A. No, I have not. 7 Q. What is your source of knowledge 8 regarding the four rules of epidemiology? 9 A. Published literature. Sir Henry 1 0 Dahl, those are his rules, he's the 1 1 professor of epidemiology at Oxford. 1 2 Q. Statistically significant means 1 3 the same thing as we were talking about 1 4 before, that is, 95 percent certain that 1 5 what you're observing over what you 1 6 expected has occurred, is that what that 1 7 means? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q. Now, you were telling me about 2 0 about epidemiological studies and what you 2 1 believe the epidemiology -- and what you 22 believed the studies showed with respect to 23 toxic properties of PCB's. 2 4 A . No. It had no re 1 a t i o n s hip to 2 5 the toxic properties , it ha d r e 1 ationship j| GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 942 WATER PCB-00048553 1 to what illnesses occurred in a group of 2 PCB workers as well as a -- the numbers of 3 the same illnesses in a non-exposed group. 4 There is no relationship to the toxicity 5 per s e. 6 Q. Let me ask you this, sir, when is 7 the last time you had occasion to che 8 of the sc ientific literature with res 9 to what i s reported or attributed t o 1 0 exposure to P C B ' s ? 1 1 A . A couple months. 1 2 Q A couple of months ago. W h 1 3 ion that caused you to check the 1 4 literaturee?? 1 5 I think I either ha d -- was 1 6 a deposition or in the middle of 1 7 ion or was thinking a deposition 1 8 was coming up. 1 9 Q. PCB case? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. At whose request were you giving 2 2 a deposition? 2 3 A. Monsanto's. Yes, it was. 2 4 Q. Did yougive adeposition? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI OA^ WATER PCB-00048554 1 Q. In what matter? 2 A. I think that wasScott number 3 two, if I'm not mistaken. That was back in 4 St. Louis. 5 Q. Scott number two? 6 A. Well, Gerard might be able to 7 tell you. Tom Carney can tell you, he's a 8 lawyer for Husch, Eppenberger, et cetera. 9 MR. MALIN: It was Scott. 1 0 A. It was Scott. 1 1 MR. MALIN: Scott, two. 1 2 MR. COHEN: At whose request did 1 3 you look at the literature? 1 4 A . Nobody's. My own. 1 5 Q Just on your own? 1 6 A . That''s correct. 1 7 Q . Just to refresh your 1 8 was happe n i n g ? 1 9 A . That''s correct. 2 0 Q What are the definit 2 1 that have been accepted by the 2 2 Conference of Industrial Hygienists? 23 A. .5 million grams per cubic meter 2 4 of air for 1254 and point -- and 1.0 for 2 5 1242, I believe. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 244 WATER PCB-00048555 1 Q. And what is the safe level, as 2 you called it, established for food by FDA? 3 A. I'm sorry,I didn't hear what you 4 said. 5 Q. You said a certain safe level was 6 established for food products by FDA? 7 A. Yes. I think they had a -- I 8 thought it was, to the best of my 9 recollection, one or two parts per million 1 0 in the edible portion. They may have 1 1 different levels for different foods. 1 2 Q . I'm sorry, can you read that 1 3 back? 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 record read by the reporter). 1 6 MR. COHEN: What is IARC? 1 7 A. International Association of 1 8 Research something. 1 9 Q. You don't know? 2 0 A. Well, I know they're a research 2 1 body that does work in toxicology, but 22 I -- 2 3 Q . Do you know where they're 2 4 located? 2 5 A. No, I don't. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 5 WATER PCB-00048556 1 Q. Do you know what, if any, toxic 2 properties they attribute to PCB's? 3 A. I may have seen it, but I don't 4 recall at the present time. I'll be happy 5 to -- if you show it to me. I'll be happy 6 to give you my opinion on it. 7 Q. Other than appearing today and 8 giving your deposition in this matter, have 9 you had occasion to participate in this 1 0 litigation at any prior stage? 1 1 A. No, sir. I think I told you one 1 2 or two years ago I had some meeting with 1 3 Mr. Malin, but it certainly doesn't ring 1 4 much of a bell in my mind. I did not give 1 5 any deposition, did not do any testifying, 1 6 did not work with any of the lawyers. 1 7 Q. Were you asked at any time to 1 8 find experts who would give an affidavit in 1 9 this matter? 2 0 A. No, sir, I was not. 2 1 Q. As part of your activities with 2 2 Monsanto while you were with Monsanto and 23 up through 1974, did you maintain any 2 4 listing of experts who could be called upon 2 5 to testify on behalf of Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 6 WATER PCB-00048557 1 A . No, I did not. 2 Q. Do you know if Monsanto has ever 3 given any research grants to any scientists 4 for independent study? 5 MR.MALIN: Thatquestion has 6 been asked and answered. You may answer it 7 again . 8 MR. COHEN: No, I asked him about 9 PCB, whether they funded any independent 1 0 work on PCB's. 11 A. This is aresearch grant to any 1 2 scientist for any purpose? 1 3 Q Yes. 1 4 A . I don ' t know 1 5 v e given m o n e y to 1 6 given money to Washington University, but I 1 7 don't know for what reason. 1 8 Q. Well, you say you don't know the 1 9 details, who wo uld know the details of what 2 0 research grants were given? 2 1 A. I wouldn't know. It was given 2 2 after I left the company. 2 3 Q. You're unaware of any research 24 grantsbeing given by Monsanto during your 25 tenure of employment? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 247 WATER PCB-00048558 1 A. Oh, I'm sure they gave research 2 grants, but they didn't give them in the 3 toxicological aspect field. I would know 4 about that. But they might have given 5 research of -- plasticizer research and the 6 recovery of phosphate from ore. I mean, 7 God knows what they might have done. I'm 8 sure there are hundreds of those, or dozens 9 of them, anyway, but I don't know. 1 0 Q. My question is, who in Monsanto 1 1 would have the information about what 1 2 grants were given and when and to whom? 1 3 A. I wouldn't know at this time. I 1 4 left Monsanto 15 years ago, I haven't the 1 5 slightest idea who at the present time 1 6 would have this or who at the time when I 1 7 left would have had it, if they are still 1 8 alive. 1 9 (Discussion off the record). 2 0 Q. Without regard to the name of the 2 1 person who would have done it, can you 2 2 identify for me the position or department 2 3 within Monsanto that would have that within 2 4 its jurisdiction? 2 5 A. No. Because it could have been GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 248 WATER PCB-00048559 1 from any of the individual c o m p a n i e s 0 r 2 divisions in the company. 11 c o u 1 d h a v e 3 been by - - from the r e s e a r c h d e p a r t m e n t . 4 I don't k now. The an s w e r i s n o , I do n ' t 5 know. I wouldn't hav e a cl u e . 6 Q Tell me wha t you k n o w about the 7 Paoli Rai 1 yard? 8 MR . M AL I N : I o b j e c t t 0 the form 9 of that q uestion. Go ahead , D o c tor, tell 1 0 him what you know abo u t the Pa o 1 1 R a i 1 1 1 Yard. 1 2 A . Paoli railr o a d ? 1 3 Q - Rail Yard? 1 4 A . I remember seeing t h e sign Paoli 15 going fro m Pennsylvan i a to New Y 0 r k . I've 1 6 never bee n to the Rai 1 Yard , I d on ' t know 1 7 anything about it. 1 8 Q In connecti on with g i v 1 ng y our 1 9 deposition here today , have y o u been given 2 0 any information about Paoli R a i 1 Yard ? 21 A . No . 2 2 Q Have you be e n given a n Y 2 3 information about litigation inv o 1 v i n g the 2 4 Paoli Rail Yard? 2 5 A. No, sir, I have not. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 249 WATER PCB-00048560 1 Q D o you know the nature o f the 2 alleged e xposure? 3 A . No, sir, I do not know wha t the 4 alleged e xposure is. 5 Q Do you have any informatio n at 6 all about the alleged body burdens o f PCB 1 s 7 that any of the plain tiffs may have 8 A . No, sir, I have no informa t i o n at 9 all. 1 0 Q Do you know whether the c 1 aims 1 1 are as a result o f occupat i o n a 1 e X p o sure or 1 2 otherwis e ? 1 3 A . I don't know t h a t . 1 4 Q . Do you know what the a 1 leg e d 1 5 ai lments are that are c 1 ai m e d ? 1 6 A . No, sir . All I know i s t h ere are 1 7 several hundred p e o p 1 e . 1 8 Q How do you know that? 19 A. I think somebody told m e . I said 2 0 what's a 11 this a bout, and they s aid we've 2 1 got a couple of h undred pe o p 1 e t h a t are 2 2 involved in a c a s e . 2 3 Q - Have you been gi v e n a n y 2 4 informat ion about how the a 1 1 e g e d 2 5 contamination occurred in the Paoli Rail GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 250 WATER PCB-00048561 1 Yard? 2 A . N 0 , sir, I have not. 3 Q D o you know w h a t sort o f work. i f 4 any, was d one with M o n s a n to prod u c t s , i f 5 any, at t h e P aoli Rail Ya r d ? 6 A . The y were suppo s e d to b e i n 7 transforme r s that were on trains 8 Q And how do you know t h a t ? 9 A . Beg pardon? 1 0 Q How do you know that? 1 1 A . M r . Malin told m e . 1 2 Q Did you know th at P CB ' s were 1 3 being used i n trans former s on t r a i ns? 1 4 A . Yes , I knew tha t . 1 5 Q Has that one of the a c c e p t e d u s e s 1 6 of PCB's? 1 7 A . Yes . They were used o n 1 8 transformers where the po s s i b i 1 i ty o f a 1 9 conflagration due to a mi n e r a 1 o i 1 2 0 transformer would be disa s t r o u s . 2 1 Q S o , you know th at they were b e i n g 2 2 used on transformers on trains? 2 3 A. I don't know of my own knowledge, 2 4 I have not seen a report of transformer 2 5 fluid on -- that was used on a train, but GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 1 WATER PCB-00048562 1 I've been told that PCB's were involved i n 2 transformers on trains to lessen the fire 3 hazard. 4 Q. When did use begin, to your 5 knowledge? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. When did you get this 8 information? 9 A . Oh, s o m etime duri n g the ' 7 0 ' s . 1 0 Q Prior t o that tim e you w e r e not 1 1 aware of the fact that PCB" s were u s e d i n 1 2 transformers on trains? 1 3 A . I m ay have been. But I certainly 1 4 know that at the time when there was 1 5 disc u s s i o n about PCB' s , it was brought up 1 6 about the vital uses for fire resistant 1 7 fluid, namely, PCB's, and they quoted 1 8 things like the subway, subways in New 1 9 York, the White House, the transformers at 2 0 Busch Stadium, the transformers at 2 1 railroads. These were all cited in the 2 2 newspapers as well as various hearings as 2 3 to the importance of PCB's in transformers. 2 4 Q. You said at various hearings; you 2 5 mean before governmental bodies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 2 WATER PCB-00048563 1 A . I believe so. I'm' m not certain. 2 I ' d have to guess. 3 Q Did you ever offer testimony in 4 any h e a r i ng before any govern mental bodies? 5 A . No, I did not. 6 Q . State or federal? 7 A . State or federal co ncerning 8 PCB's, I did not. 9 Q So, as you sit h e r e today, you 1 0 don' t k n o w anything about the use o r 1 1 d i s p o s a 1 of PCB's at the Pa o 1 i R a i 1 Yard, 1 2 you don't know anything a b o u t the claims 1 3 a 11 r ibutable to the use o f P C B ' s ? 14 A. I have seen no c 1 aim s . And when 1 5 you say a bout the use, o b v i o u s iy , if it's a 1 6 rail road yard, then they h a v e t r a n sformers 1 7 and they' re alleging con t a c t w i t h it, there 1 8 must have been some repa i r o f t r a n sformers, 1 9 but I don 't know any of the d e tail s at all. 2 0 Q That's an assu m p t ion o n your 2 1 part ? 2 2 A . That's an assu m p t ion . I 2 3 s h o u 1 dn ' t even make that 2 4 Q Would it be fa i r t o say that we 2 5 have a 1 r e ady discussed a 1 1 o f your GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 253 WATER PCB-00048564 1 knowledge of the PCB's o r rather the 2 Paoli Rail Yard, and in connection with 3 that Rail Yard, PCB's and any claims 4 arising out of it? 5 A . Say that over. 6 (The r e q u e s t e d portion of the 7 record read by the report e r ) . 8 A . Yes, that ' s f a i r . 9 (Discussion off the record). 1 0 MR. COHEN: Doctor, in connection 1 1 with this litigation, we have been given a 1 2 number of documents, and I'm going to show 1 3 one to you at this time, strictly for a 1 4 general inquiry. I'd like to ask you 1 5 certain questions about that document. For 1 6 identification, this appears to be a letter 1 7 written December 17, 1952. The author of 1 8 the letter is R . Emmet Kelly, M.D . . 1 9 MR . COX : Is there a Monsanto 2 0 identification number on that? 21 MR . COHEN : I'd rather have the 2 2 witness tell us that. 2 3 MR. COX: Since you're not 2 4 handing out copies -- 2 5 MR. COHEN: We'll get to that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | ?S4 WATER PCB-00048565 1 (Discussion off the record). 2 MR. COHEN: Sir, I'm not going to 3 ask you if you remember that document. But 4 let me ask you this, does that purport to 5 be a document that you wrote? 6 A. Yes, sir, it does. 7 Q. That would be -- at least typed 8 in is your name in the signature block on 9 the document? 1 0 A. Yes. Plus the initials of my 1 1 secretary at that time. 1 2 Q . In 1 9 5 2 ? 1 3 A. Beg pardon? 1 4 Q. Your secretary in 1952? 1 5 A. M F L, Mary Frances Lyons. Yes, I 1 6 remember. 1 7 Q. You see there are two numbers 1 8 stamped down sort of at the lower 1 9 right-hand corner in the document? 2 0 A. Yes, Ido. 2 1 Q. They weren't part of the original 2 2 document, were they? 2 3 A . No. 2 4 Q. That's PRR and then a number? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 255 WATER PCB-00048566 1 Q Do you know what that mean s ? 2 A . I haven ' t the slightest id e a 3 Q How about the stamp SCM an d the 4 number? 5 A. Still no idea. 6 Q. So, any document that I show you 7 t h a t bear s t h o s e numb ers, you wouldn ' t b e 8 a b 1 e to t ell m e what those numbers m e a n ? 9 A . Tha t ' s corr e c t . 1 0 MR. COX: I would like those 1 1 numbers read into the record, please. 1 2 MR. COHEN: When we get to you, 1 3 you can read them into the record. 1 4 MR. COX: I'd like to read them 1 5 into the record contemporaneously with the 1 6 discussion of the document, so the record 1 7 is clear. 1 8 MR. MALIN: I'll join in that 1 9 request. I think that's required by 2 0 protocol, to identify a document that a 2 1 witness has been asked to look at. 2 2 MR. COX: May I see the 2 3 document? 24 MR. COHEN: Sure. You want to 2 5 read it into the record? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 256 WATER PCB-00048567 1 MR. COX: Has thisdocument been 2 marked as an exhibit? 3 MR. COHEN: No. There is no 4 reason to. 5 MR. COX: I'd like the document 6 to be completely identified for the record. 7 MR. COHEN: You can identify it 8 any way you want. I have no use for the 9 document. I asked him whether he 1 0 recognized those numbers, and he said no. 11 MR. COX: The document is a 1 2 letter dated December 17, 1952, from R. 1 3 Emmet Kelly, M.D. to Mr. D.V., it looks 1 4 like Palmer, American Mutual Liability 1 5 Insurance Company, and it hasstamped 1 6 numbers on it PRR 044032 and SCM 029676. 1 7 MR. COHEN: Anyone else? Is 18 everyone ready? Mr. Reporter, would you be 1 9 kind enough to mark this? 2 0 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 1 mark'd for identification) . 2 2 MR. COHEN: Dr. Kelly, I'm going 2 3 to show you a document that's just been 2 4 marked as Kelly Exhibit Number 1 of today's 2 5 date. I want to ask you if you can GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 7 WATER PCB-00048568 1 identi y that document for us? For the 2 record, this has been stamped PRR 025475. 3 There is also another number that I don't 4 recognize, SCM 042280. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 MR. MALIN: Do you have a 7 question? 8 MR. COHEN: Yes. 9 A . What was the question? 1 0 Q Can you identify it for us? 1 1 A . Yes. T h is is a letter f r o m me to 1 2 a Mr. Allen of Hexagon Laboratorie s , dated 1 3 February 17, 1962, with numbers li s t e d as 1 4 Kelly Exhibit number 1, with two n umbers , 1 5 PRR 025475, SCM 042280. 1 6 Q Now, you would agre e r w o u 1 d you 1 7 not, that thos e two numbers , PRR a n d SCM, 1 8 are not part o f the original doc u m e n t ? 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. Is there anything else o n the 2 1 paper that you recognize today as you sit I 22 here that's not part of the origin a 1 2 3 document? 2 4 A. You mean outside of the exhibit 2 5 stamp that he put on? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 258 WATER PCB-00048569 1 Q That ' s right. Yes. 2 A . No. I think -- well. by the 3 original document , you mean this one? 4 Q Yes. 5 A . Because -- well, I want to be 6 sure we're saying about the same thing. I 7 sent this letter to a Mr. Allen, and there 8 is a note on this to the blind carbon 9 recipients by me, which was not on the 1 0 letter that went to Allen. 1 1 Q But the document as it e x i s t s , t o 1 2 the best of y o ur recollecti on, is a copy o f 1 3 a genuine d o c u ment that you p r e p a red a t one 1 4 time? 1 5 A. 0^/ yes. 1 6 Q The letter that you sent t o 1 7 Allen at H e x a g on Laboratories does n o 1 8 contain the ri bbon copy blind mess age 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. And that message is the one at 2 1 the top that reads, "BCC's"? 2 2 A . That ' s b 1 i n d . 2 3 Q "It might be very well for us to 2 4 over this matt e r of w a r n i n g 2 5 individuals about leaks in an Aroclor GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 259 WATER PCB-00048570 1 system . W e certain 1 Y aren't to o emphatic 2 about it". 3 A . Y e s , I w r o t e that in 1 9 6 2. 4 Q . Y o u might w ant to che ck that date 5 there. Is i t '62, y o u believe? It's a 6 little obscure. 7 A. '62, '63, '61, I'm not sure. 8 Q. One of those years. Whatever the 9 date was that that originally appeared on 1 0 the letter, that was the date that you sent 1 1 the letter, and that's the date that you 1 2 put the blind message to the carbon copy 1 3 recipients? 1 4 A. Yes, sir. 1 5 Q. What exactly were you talking 1 6 about when you said, "We certainly aren't 1 7 too emphatic about it"? 1 8 A. Well, I guess we didn't say, even 1 9 though we only had two episodes of injury 2 0 from leaking -- was this hydraulics or -- 21 Q. Want to take a look at it? Take 22 a look. I apologize for not having an 2 3 extra copy of it, we'll try to do better 2 4 tomorrow. 2 5 A. It must be heat transfer, because GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 0 WATER PCB-00048571 1 it's at elevated temperatures. S o , what I 2 was saying t o the recipients of the carbon 3 copy , even though this is only the s e c o n d 4 case we've had s i nee 1940, that was twenty 5 plus years , w e ought to look over ou r -- to 6 be sure that we emphasize, if you've got 7 .leaks, fix them or get out of there. 8 Q. In other words , in the product 9 literature that you were making available 1 0 to the public, you w e r e n ' t e m p h a sizing the 1 1 leaks that shouldn' t be allowed to exist? 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of that question, that's a 1 4 mischaracterization of his testimony. 1 5 MR. COHEN: Well, do you agree 1 6 with my characterization? 1 7 A. No. Because in it I said in our 1 8 literature we said do not breathe the fumes 1 9 in confined spaces or at elevated 2 0 temperatures. That was repeatedly written 2 1 in all our product bulletins. But maybe we 2 2 should have said heat transfer units can 2 3 leak, but we hadn't put that in. 2 4 Q. Who is the recipient of this 2 5 blind p.s., blind message, whatever it is? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 1 WATER PCB-00048572 1 A. I haven't th e slightest idea. I 2 mean - 3 Q. Do you want to take a look 4 that name? It looks 1 ike Mr. Richard 5 somebody . 6 A. Oh, it must have been the New 7 York office, somebody -- Richard somebody, 8 somebody I don't -- I can't make out the 9 St. Louis man. 1 0 Q. Doesn't ring a bell for you 1 1 today, anyway? 1 2 A. No, it doesn ' t . 1 3 Q. In the secon d paragraph you say, 1 4 "We do state that the vapors emitted by 1 5 Aroclor atelevated te mperatures are 1 6 injurious upon prolong ed exposure and 1 7 should not be breathed What were you 1 8 referring to there? 1 9 A. The Treon wo rk in 1954, where we 2 0 found out it was injur ious to animals. 2 1 Q. That was the test that you talked 2 2 about earlier where yo u used fluid between 2 3 200 and 300 degrees an d exposed it to hot 2 4 metals, 500 to 600 deg r e e s ? 2 5 A. Yes. I wasn 't certain about the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 262 WATER PCB-00048573 1 temperature ranges, I think I qualified 2 that. 3 Q. Right. Whatever your exact 4 t e s t i m o n y was with regard to that. that's 5 the t e s t i ng that you were referring to? 6 A. I was referring to the work Treon 7 did at Kettering with dropping Aroclors on 8 metal at elevated temperatures, yes, sir. 9 Q. Didthis study everget published 1 0 anywhere? 1 1 A. Yes. Treon's? 1 2 Q. Yes . 1 3 A. Yes, I'm quite sure it did. 1 4 Q Do you know where. w h at journal? 1 5 A . I think the American Industrial 1 6 e n e Quarterly. 1 7 Q Was that research o r study peer 1 8 reviewed? 1 9 A . Yes, s i r , it ' s peer revi e w e d 2 0 Q What d o you mean by peer 2 1 revi e w e d ? 2 2 A . Well, Y o u s e n d it a r o u n d t o 2 3 e x p e r t s i n the f i eld. you send i t t o 2 4 toxicologists who are knowledgeable in the 2 5 actions of chemicals and in the actions of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 263 WATER PCB-00048574 1 1a ti on s tudi 2 m e ters o f i n 3 Q < Who s e 4 A The eedditor of the journal to 5 which the paper has been submitted. 6 Q. And do the peer reviewers submit 7 comments? 8 A. Yes, certainly. 9 Q. To whom? 10 A. The editor. 1 1 Q. The editor of the journal? 1 2 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Anddoes the researcher get to 1 4 see the comments? 1 5 A. I can't answer that. I don't 1 6 know. 1 7 Q. Did you ever get to see the 1 8 comments of the peer reviewers of any 1 9 article or study that was done at the 2 0 request of Monsanto? 2 1 A. Did I ever see the comments of 2 2 the peer reviewers? I don't believe I did 23 Q In your experience, ha v e you ever 2 4 ask e d to act as a peer revi e w e r ? 2 5 A . I don't believe I have r in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 4 WATER PCB-00048575 1 formal sense that they submitted an entire 2 article to me. They may have -- the 3 editor -- I know the editor, I have a 4 vague recollection of the editor sending me 5 a conclusion or a couple of paragraphs of 6 the article and saying what do you think 7 a b o u t this, but that's -- that was really 8 for facts rather than for opinions as to 9 the gist of the paper. 1 0 Q. When you said vapors are 1 1 injurious, what exactly did you mean? 1 2 A. Beg pardon? 1 3 Q. When you said the vapors are 1 4 injurious in this letter, what exactly did 1 5 you mean? 1 6 A. Well, if you breathe enough of 1 7 them at an elevated temperature in 1 8 sufficient concentration, it will hurt you. 1 9 Q. In what way? 2 0 A. You'll get irritation of the 2 1 lungs. 2 2 Q. What sort of irritation? Edema, 2 3 as we discussed before? 2 4 A. Well, that's the end result. 2 5 You'll start coughing, you'll get chemical GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 265 WATER PCB-00048576 1 bronchitis, you'll get chemical pneumonia, 2 and you may end up with pulmonary edema, if 3 you're fool enough to stay in there long 4 enough . 5 Q. Now, at the time you wrote this 6 letter in 1960, whatever it was, 1, 2 or 3, 7 you were not aware of the presence of 8 dibenzofurans in your PCB fluid? 9 A. That's correct. 1 0 Q. You were not aware of any 1 1 conversion that may have occurred in the 1 2 use of the fluids to increase the quantity 1 3 of d i benzofurans in the fluid? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Have you ever asked Dr. Treon or 1 6 anyone to do any follow-up of his mid ' 5 0 ' s 1 7 study to see if that exposure that you were 1 8 testing then, that is, taking PCB fluid and 1 9 subjecting it to high -- excuse me, to 2 0 metal surfaces heated to high temperatures 2 1 creates d i benzofurans? 2 2 A. In 1954, I know that there were 2 3 -- people were not able to look for 2 4 dibenzofurans, and I do not believe that 2 5 the presence of dibenzofurans in PCB's was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 066 WATER PCB-00048577 1 ever brou g h t up . The answer to your 2 question i s no, I never did. 3 Q W e were talking about .1 9 5 4 , and I 4 was m o v i n g a head and s aid did you e v e r , 5 through 19 7 4 , and your a n s w e r is no. you 6 did not, through 1974? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q Do you know i f anyone has 9 subs e q u e n 11 y followed up o n that res e a r c h 1 0 to s e e what. if any. e f f e c t ther e is on t h 1 1 f 1 u i d i n the creation o f d i b e n z o f ura ns? 1 2 A . N o , sir. 1 3 M S . SMITH : I ' d 1 ike t o as k on 1 4 the rec ord that tomorrow y o u get cop ies f o 1 5 the Wit ness and get c o p i e s for u s , a t the 1 6 t ab 1 e . 1 7 MR . COHEN : Well, c o u n s e 1 , we're 1 8 here i n S t . Louis, I don ' t have all m y 1 9 f a c i lit ies available t o m e , I ' m not going 2 0 to make copies for everyone. You're 2 1 welcome to see the documents as they're 22 produced to the witness. We'll make a n 23 e f fort to have additional copies for the 2 4 witness, but I'm not going to make copies 25 available to anybody else of all the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 267 WATER PCB-00048578 1 exhibits I intend to introduce. 2 MS. SMITH : Thank you for your 3 cooperation. 4 MR . COHEN: It's not a lack of 5 cooperation. If we were in Philadelphia, 6 I'd be glad to accomodate you. 7 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit Number 8 2 mark ' d for identification) . 9 MR. MALIN: Is the question does 1 0 the witness recognize this document? 1 1 MR. COHEN: Let me ask you, sir, 1 2 do you recognize the document that has been 1 3 marked as Exhibit 2? 1 4 A . Yes, Ido. 1 5 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 1 6 A . 11 is a letter from a Mr. Allen, 1 7 chief engineer of Hexagon Laboratories, to 1 8 e, dated February 16, 1961, marked Kelly 1 9 Exhibit Number 2 . Do you want all these 2 0 numbers on it. too? 2 1 Q Well, other than thos e numbers 2 2 down in the right-hand corner. such as we 2 3 discussed earlier, and the exhibit stamp, 2 4 which I guess we can agree are not part of 2 5 the original document, does the rest of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 26 8 WATER PCB-00048579 1 document , t o the best of your recollection r 2 look 1 i k e a true and correct copy of the 3 d o c u m e n t that you received from Mr. Allen 4 back ye a long ago ? 5 A . There i s someth i n g up at the top. 6 looks 1 ike a date , Februa r y 11th , Kelly, 7 K - e - 1 - - I don't know w h a t that means . 8 Q That's also not part o f the 9 or igina 1, as you understa n d it? 1 0 A . No . Th a t ' s -- that ' s not part. 1 1 as far as I would be cone e r n e d , n o . 1 2 Q Okay. You see in the letter 1 3 here, s i r, it ref ers to a recent telephone 1 4 convera ation you and Mr. Allen a pparently 1 5 had? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q . And do you see here w h ere it 1 8 says, " For your i nformati on and records the 1 9 two men developed symptom s of he patitis"? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q It says , "as y o u predi cted"? 2 2 A . Yes. 23 Q Can you tell me , do y o u have a 2 4 recolle ction of h aving predicted that these 25 individuals would develop the s y mptoms of GORE REPORTING COMPANY, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 9 WATER PCB-00048580 1 hepatitis? 2 A. Yes, I do, very much. b e c a 3 this is relative ly unique. Th i s was 4 twenty-two years since the last one. 5 whenever it was. Somebody called me up 6 from Hexagon, I didn't know the name of the 7 company. That's been in lots of 8 depositions. I said on at least two cases, 9 a couple in Indiana, a jerryrigged deal. 1 0 and someplace -- I thought it w a s in N e w 1 1 York, he called me up and he s a i d we ' v e had 1 2 men that -- two or three men, I don ' t know 1 3 how many, that have been working a r o u n d a n 1 4 Aroclor heat transfer agent system that's 1 5 leaked, and they're nauseated, and they 1 6 feel sick. I said well, obviously, you've 1 7 taken the m out of there. so watch out for 1 8 jaundice, because that i s what can occur if 1 9 you get a n acute overdos e of PCB . So - 2 0 and I don ' t know when he wrote the letter. 2 1 It's one of those exhibits. I don't know 2 2 what that date was. But then he wrote this 2 3 letter and said yes, you were right, thanks 2 4 for telling me to watch out for this. And 2 5 didn't he say the fellows are okay now? Or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 270 WATER PCB-00048581 1 what did he say? May I see the 2 Q. Sure. 3 A. They were hospitalized for two 4 weeks . 5 Q. What caused you to suspect that 6 they would develop hepatitis-like symptoms 7 such as jaundice? 8 A. Because, previously, there was 9 another case in Indiana where people used a 1 0 jerryrigged heat transfer apparatus and 1 1 those people developed hepatitis and 1 2 jaundice. And in Treon's work, I believe 1 3 the liver was the target organ, also, in 1 4 the acute studies that he did. 1 5 Q You didn't tell me about t h 1 6 before. Before, you told me about t h 1 7 respiratory, with Dr. Treon. 1 8 A. Tell you what? 1 9 Q. About liver problems. You told 2 0 me about -- 2 1 A. I did not tell you? 2 2 Q. You told me about respiratory 2 3 problems . 2 4 A. Well, my impression is that 2 5 before Treon started on any prolonged GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 071 WATER PCB-00048582 1 toxicological experiment he has t o find 2 out what sort o f level this anim a 1 can 3 take, because y ou don't want an animal that 4 you're trying t o do studies on d i e in the 5 middle of the e xperiment. So, i t is my 6 recollection th at he did get -- on his 7 exposures, when they were high e xposures, 8 he did get acut e toxic hepatitis from 9 exposure to Aro clor. 1 0 Q. So, i t was based upon your -- 1 1 the results of the experiments w i t h Dr. 1 2 Treon and a pri or contact that y 0 u had 1 3 about this leak ing, as you call 1 t , 1 4 jerryrigged hea t transfer mechan ism that 1 5 you predicted t o Mr. Allen that these 1 6 individuals may develop symptoms similar to 1 7 hepatitis? 1 8 A . That ' s correct 1 9 Q . Andy ou advise d him, a nd he wrote 2 0 and thanked you for that advice? 2 1 A . Well, gave me some a d v ice of his 2 2 own, too. 2 3 Q. That is, that you prov i d e more 2 4 information regarding safety of handling? 2 5 A. That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 272 WATER PCB-00048583 1 Q . To .your knowledg.e . did Monsanto 2 make changes in its product information 3 literature to reflect that information? 4 A. I think the answer is no. We had 5 adequate information there. We told them 6 not to use the material, breathe the fumes 7 at elevated temperatures. I don't think we 8 said don't boil this in open pots, don't 9 use heat transfer agent apparatus that 1 0 leaks. We do not say that. We just said 1 1 don't breathe the material at elevated 1 2 temperatures. 1 3 Q. And I believe you also said 1 4 earlier that these two letters have come up 1 5 in various matters in which you've been 1 6 called upon to testify? 1 7 A. I never recall seeing the 1 8 letters. I brought up the point that 1 9 somebody in New York called me, and I 2 0 didn't know it was Hexagon, I had forgotten 2 1 that. I don't think I recall seeing the 2 2 letter. 23 Q. But you have discussed this in 2 4 other depositions? 25 A. Yes, I have. I've said there GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 273 WATER PCB-00048584 1 have been two cases that I know of where 2 there have been acute toxic exposures to 3 leaks at elevated temperatures, two in 38 4 years I was with Monsanto. 5 (Kelly Depositi on Exhibi t N u m b e r 6 3 mark ' d for i dentifica t i o n ) 7 A . Yes, si r, I've read it. 8 Q Do you recogniz e Kelly 3 ? 9 A . Yes, I d o . 1 0 Q Can you tell me what it is? 1 1 A . Kelly 3 is a memorandum fro m m e 1 2 R i chard Davi s, who I remember a s b e i n g 1 3 in the marketing department of PCB's, in 1 4 which I refer to the episode at Hexagon 1 5 Laboratories, dated February 2, 1961, with 1 6 notes PRR 025477, SCM 042282. 1 7 Q. And those aren't part of the 1 8 original document, those two numbers? 1 9 A. No. Neither is the scribbling up 2 0 on the upper right corner. I cannot make 2 1 it out. 2 2 Q. Do you have a clue as to who put 2 3 that scribble on the document? 2 4 A. I haven't the slightest idea. 2 5 Q. Do you recall preparing this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 274 WATER PCB-00048585 1 memo? 2 A. Now that I see it, I do. I 3 hadn't recalled it up to then. 4 Q. Now, looking at the document, 5 sir, there is a reference to one individual 6 -- in the firs t full paragraph, on e 7 individual was under the care of a 8 physician and the physici an suspec ted liver 9 damage, a 1 t h o u gh no jaund ice could b e 1 0 seen. Do you see that? D o you see that 1 1 sentence? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q Then you have i n parenth e s i s , 1 4 "patient a n e g r o. " Is t h ere any 1 5 significa nee t o the fact that the pat i e n t 1 6 was a n e g r o ? 1 7 A . Well , if you're looking for 1 8 yellow sk in, i f you have black ski n , i t 1 9 might be a little harder to see ye 11 o w . 2 0 Q So, the signifi cance was t h at the 2 1 jaundice would be harder to detect i n a 2 2 dark skinned individual? 2 3 A. Although, if the physician were 2 4 smart enough, as I gather he was, because 2 5 he suspected liver damage, he would have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 5 WATER PCB-00048586 1 seen it in the whites of the eyes, Unless 2 that negro had bloodshot eyes, you could 3 see it there just as easily as in a 4 cauc as i on . 5 Q . There was no o t h e r reason to put 6 that in, such as t o suggest that a negro 7 might be more susceptible to liver damage 8 than a caucasion? 9 A . No. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Why don't we break 1 1 off at this point. 1 2 Deposition Recessed) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 276 WATER PCB-00048587