FILE NAME Paccar PAC
DATE 2025 Feb 14 DOC PAC008
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Rodney Curbo Morris v Bel Alr Auto Ex E
EXHIBIT E
Rodney Curbo 2/14/2025 Rosalind Morris et al v Bel Air Auto Parts Inc. et al
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT
FOR BALTIMORE CITY
IN RE
BALTIMORE CITY
*
ASBESTOS LITIGATION
*
*
*
*
*
ROSALIND MORRIS Individually and as Personal Representative
of the Estate of John
* CASE NO
* 23-000029
*
April
8
2025
* Trial Date
Alan Morris et al
*
Plaintiffs
*
*
V.
BEL AIR AUTO PARTS INC *
et al
*
Defendants
*
*
*
*
*
Page 1
*
*
VIDEOTAPED VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
RODNEY FEBRUARY
Reported by
CURBO
14 2025
Sarah Thomas
EVANS REPORTING SERVICE
Reporting.com
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Rodney Curbo 2/14/2025 Rosalind Morris et al v Bel Air Auto Parts Inc. et al
Page 2
1
VIDEOTAPED VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
2
RODNEY CURBO
3
The Videotaped Videoconference Deposition
4
of Rodney Curbo taken in the captioned
5
case on Friday February 14 2025 commencing
6
at 10:33 a.m. and reported by Sarah Thomas
7
Court Reporter and Notary Public
8
9
10 11 12
13 14
15
16 17
19
EVANS REPORTING SERVICE
20
Reporting.com
800.256.8410
21
Page 4
12
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION
PAGE
2
7
February 4 1997 - PACCAR
Answers to Master
DW
Interrogatories - Tinker Case
15
DW
8
DegensteinDegensteinDeposition 15
5
April
6
April DepositionDepositionPACCAR Case 15
7
10 Bean June 25 2009 PACCAR
Bean Deposition - Gobel Case
15
8
11
August 11 2020 PACCAR
9
Curbo Deposition - Pawlik Case
15
10
12
Rockwell Components for
Kenworth Trucks - 1977
15
11
13
KW Family of Trucks Brochure
15
12
14
K100 & Equip 1981
15
13
15
K100 O Equip 1979
15
14
16
K100 Equip 1976
15
15
17
K100 O Equip 1974
15
18
KW W900 & Equip 1983
15
17
19
KW W900 O Equip 1979
15
18
Equip
20
KW W900 O Equip 1975
15
19
20
21
Page 3
123
INDEX
123
VIDEOTAPED VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
123
RODNEY CURBO
4
Friday February 14 2025
5
6
EXAMINATION BY
PAGE
8
Mr. Marshall
9
Mr. Adams
138
160 182
11
12
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION
PAGE
13
1
NotNiocteice of of DepDoespiotsiiotnion
15
14
2
January 3 2025 Supplemental
Responses to Rosalind Morris
15
15
3
January 3 2025 Supplemental
16
Responses Ms. Bradley
15
17
4
PACCAR Answers to Interrogatories -
Morris Case
15
18
5
PACCAR Answers to Interrogatories -
19
Lehn Case
15
20
6
July 16 2004 PACCAR
Answers to Mad County Simmons
21
Interrogatories
15
Page 5
1
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION
PAGE
2
21
KW W900 & Equip 1974
15
3
22
KW 7-00 & EqEuqiupip 1978
15
4
23
KW 500 & Equip 1974
15
5
24
MVMA OSHA Comment - PACCAR
15
7
26
1974 PACCAR Annual Report
15
9
Does Your Kenworth Still
10 11 12
Stop Like a Kenworth
15
28
Pursuit
Quality
PACCAR - Pursuit of Quality
Third
Edition
Third Edition
15
13
29
Documents Mr. Curbo Identified
45
14
Note Exhibits retained by Mr. Ruckdeschel
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
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Rodney Curbo 2/14/2025 Rosalind Morris et al v Bel Air Auto Parts Inc. et al
1
APPEARANCES
2
JONATHAN RUCKDESCHEL ESQUIRE
The Ruckdeschel Law Firm LLC
3
8357 Main Street
Ellicott City Maryland 21043
4
410.750.7825
rucklawfirm@rucklawfirm.com
56
On behalf of Plaintiffs
56
DAVID J. QUIGG ESQUIRE
DeHay & Elliston LLP
7
36 South Charles Street Suite 1400
Baltimore Maryland 21201
8
410.783.7002
dquigg@dehay.com
9
On behalf of Defendants
Pneumo Abex Eaton DCO
10
H. BARRET MARSHALL JR ESQUIRE
11
Gordon Rees Scully Mansukhani LLP
2200 Ross Avenue Suite 3700
12
Dallas Texas 75201
214.231.4757
13
bmarshall@grsm.com
On behalf of Defendant Meritor Inc.
14
ALEXANDER G. CALFO ESQUIRE
15
King & Spalding
Angeles Los California 90071 633 West Fifth Street Suite 1600
16 213.443.4347
17
acalfo@kslaw.com
On behalf of Defendant
Internal Motors
8661
8661
Page 6
Page 8
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
*
*****
*****
3
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
4
record This is the recorded corporate
designe
deposition
5
designee deposition of PACCAR Incorporated
given
6
given by Rod Curbo
is
7
Today's date is February 14th 2025
8
And the time is 10:33 a.m.
This
Rosalind
Morris
9
This is the case of Rosalind Morris
10
et al versus Bel Air Auto Parts
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Incorporated et al
is
The case number is 23-000029
pending
in
Circuit
Circuit
Baltimore
pending in the Circuit Court for Baltimore
City
City
This deposition is being recorded via
videocnferncing
videocnferncing
videoconferencing
is
My name is Paula Wolff the
videographer
as ociated
with
Reporting
videographer associated with Pohlman Reporting
18
headquartered at 10 South Broadway Suite 1400
19
Louis
Mis ouri
Mis ouri
St. Louis Missouri
20
The court reporter is Sarah Thomas
21
also with Pohlman Reporting
Page 7
Page 9
1
APPEARANCES CONTINUED
1
All counsel will be reflected on the
2
MICHAEL T. WHARTON ESQUIRE
Wharton Levin Ehrmantraut & Klein
3
104 West Street
P.O. Box 551
4
Annapolis Maryland 21404
410.263 5900
2
stenographic record
3
Will the court reporter please swear
4
in the witness .
5
Whereupon
6
RODNEY F. CURBO
5
mtw@whartonlevin.com
On behalf of Defendant
69 Internal Motors
8
Also Present Paula Wolff Videographer
9
7
the witness herein called for oral examination
8
in the matter pending being first duly sworn
fi to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing
10 _ but the truth testified as follows on
11
EXAMINATION
10
12
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
11
13
Q Good morning Mr. Curbo My name is
PP 12
14
Jon Ruckdeschel I represent Rosie Morris and
14 15 the other plaintiffs in this case
15
16
Would you please state your name and
16
17
business address for the record
17
18
A The full name is Rodney Forrest
19 19
19
Curbo The business address -- well I'm
20 20 currently contracting for PACCAR I worked at
21
21
Peterbilt Motors -- Peterbilt Motors address
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1
Where I worked previously was -- WOW -- amazing
2
how you forget in a couple years It's on
3
Airport Road in Denton Texas 3200 Airport
4
Road Sorry
5
Q That's how memory works here Can
6
you hear me okay
7
A can
8
Q Great right If that becomes a
9
problem let me know Sometimes I trail off
10
when I'm asking questions And if you ever
11
need to stretch you know even if it's not to
12
take a break you just need to stretch your
13
knee whatever let me know and we'll
14
accommodate it
15
You're here today as the corporate
16
designee of PACCAR correct
17
A Correct
18
Q And you have testified in that
19
capacity a number of times going back to
20
approximately 2010 is that correct
21
A That's correct
Page 12
1
MR RUCKDESCHEL Maybe not
2
MR MARSHALL Yeah Jon it cleared
3
when we all signed off
4
MR RUCKDESCHEL Oh see I didn't
5
sign off That's the -- well anyway sorry
6
I'm not a --
7
MR ADAMS That's okay I'll take
8
notes on it That's fine
9
MR RUCKDESCHEL right So 1A
10
is going to be the objections
11
Exhibit 2 is the January 3 2025
12
supplemental responses to Mrs. Morris's
13
interrogatories
14
Exhibit 3 January 3 2025
15
supplemental responses to Ms. Bradley's
16
interrogatories
17
Exhibit 4 is going to be PACCAR'S
18
answers to the master interrogatories in the
19
Morris case
20
Exhibit 5 will be PACCAR's answers to
21
interrogatories from the Lehn L case
Page 11
1
Q Okay We're going to do a little
2
housekeeping here And this will be the most
3
boring part of the deposition But we're going
45
to go ahead and roll through it and then
45
hopefully we can roll through what we're doing
6
in an hour and a half to two hours tops
7
Just for housekeeping purposes I'm
8
going to go through the exhibits I've put
9
them in the chat
10
Exhibit 1 is going to be the
11
deposition notice We'll make Exhibit 1A the
12
objections that were filed by PACCAR to the
13
deposition notice
14
MR ADAMS Hey Jon they're not in
15
the chat I guess we logged in after you did
16
it Can the court reporter send them back
17
through the chat or something just so that I
18
can see
19
MR RUCKDESCHEL I'm going to try
20
and do it again We'll see if it works
21
MR ADAMS Thank you very much
Page 13
1
Exhibit 6 will be July 16th 2004
2
PACCAR answers to Interrogatories from Madison
3
County Illinois
4
Exhibit 7 February 7 1997 PACCAR
5
answers to interrogatories in the Tinker
6
k case in New York
7
Exhibit 8 August 26th 1993
8
deposition of PACCAR through its designee
9
Mr. Degenstein D in the
10
River Bank case -- or River Bark case I typed
11
that wrong in the chat
12
Exhibit 9 April 28 2009 deposition
13
of PACCAR through its designee Mr. Bean
14
B in the Martin case
15
Exhibit 10 will be the June 25 2009
16
deposition of PACCAR through its designee
17
Mr. Bean in the Gobel case G
18
Exhibit 11 the August 11 2020
19
deposition of PACCAR through Mr. Curbo in the
20
Pawlik case w
21
Exhibit 12 is going to be a brochure
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Page 14
1
entitled Rockwell Components for Kenworth
2
Trucks from 1977
3
Exhibit 13 is a brochure Kenworth
4
Family of Trucks
5
Exhibit 14 15 16 and 17 are
6
Kenworth K100 standard and optional equipment
7
lists respectively for the years 1981 1979
8
1976 and 1974
9
Exhibits 18 19 20 and 21 are
10
Kenworth W900 standard and optional equipment
11
lists from 1983 1979 1975 and 1974
12
Exhibit 22 Kenworth L700 standard
13
and optional equipment lists from 1978
14
Exhibit 23 Kenworth C500 standard
15
and optional equipment lists from 1974
16
Exhibit 24 Motor Vehicle
17
Manufacturing Association OSHA comments from
18
1984
19
Exhibit 25 PACCAR's annual report
20
from 1971
21
Exhibit 26 PACCAR's annual report
Page 16
1
say
2
Q right And so the information
3
you have regarding activities and business
4
operations of PACCAR'S Kenworth and Peterbilt
5
divisions prior to 1983 comes from things
6
you've been told by other people or that you've
7
read in documents fair
8
A Yeah I would say that's probably
9
fair
10
Q Okay And am I correct you started
11
acting in your capacity as the corporate
12
designee in 2010
13
A It was about 2010 2011
14
Q Okay Prior to you an individual
15
named Larry Bean had been the designee for a
16
couple years is that fair
17
A believe so
18
Q And then way back in 1993 PACCAR had
19
offered Mr. Degenstein D as
20
the corporate designee in one case correct
21
A That's my understanding
Page 15
Page 17
1
from 1974
1
Q right And you've reviewed that
2
Exhibit 27 is image 128 of 152 from
2
deposition in the past
3
the Kenworth.com website in the archive gallery
3
A It's been quite a few years ago but
4
section of Kenworth's website It's entitled
4
yes
5
Does your Kenworth stop like a Kenworth
5
Q right And has anyone to your
6
And Exhibit 28 is a copy of PACCAR's
6
knowledge testified as the corporate designee
7
Pursuit of Quality the third edition
7
for PACCAR other than Mr. Degenstein in 1993
8
Curbo Deposition Exhibits 1 through
8
Mr. Bean and yourself
9
28 marked for identification
10
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
fi
10
A Not to my knowledge Q right Now one of the things
11
Q right Sorry for that delay
11
that you've done over the years is review and
12
Mr. Curbo How old are you sir
12
verify answers to interrogatories in litigation
13
A eight
13
for PACCAR is that fair
14
Q right And when did you start
14
A That's correct
15
working with Peterbilt
15
Q right And prior to your doing
16
A 1983
16
that it's my understanding that an individual
17
Q And is it fair to say that you have
17
named Bob Morrison did that for a while in
18
no personal knowledge of the internal workings
18
litigation Are you familiar with
19
of PACCAR either Peterbilt or Kenworth prior
19
Mr. Morrison
20
to beginning there at Peterbilt in 1983
20
A am familiar with Mr. Morrison I
21
A I would say that's probably fair to
21
didn't know that he had done -- had verified
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Page 20
1
any interrogatories That's news to me
1
A Not that I recall about
2
Q Who is Mr. Morrison
2
asbestos issues
3
A He was -- at least part of the time
3
Q Fair enough Did you also review
4
that I worked at Peterbilt he was chief
4
transcripts of Mr. Degenstein and Mr. Bean as
5 engineer
6
Q Okay Fair enough And with respect
5
part of your educating yourself in getting
6
ready to be the corporate representative
7
to the questioning today sir I'm going to try
7
A As said before it's been quite a
8
to refer to PACCAR since you're speaking for
8
few years ago when I reviewed those
9
the company There may be times when I have to
9
transcripts I don't recall exactly when it
10
clarify If I say you then I mean you PACCAR
10
was but I reviewed them But I have in the
11
versus you Mr. Curbo personally
12
I'll try and do my best but if it's
11
past
12
Q Fair enough And did you also look
13
ever ambiguous to you please let me know if
14
you have a question
15
All right Now when you have --
16
when you started working as the corporate
17
designee for PACCAR can you describe for me
18
generally what you did to educate yourself
19
regarding the matters about which you expected
20
to have to give testimony
21
And in doing so I'm asking for you
13
at any prior answers to interrogatories that
14
PACCAR had issued over the years and verified
15
as part of your educating yourself
16
A I don't recall specifically
17
Q right Does PACCAR agree that
18
when its corporate designees have testified in
19
the past they have testified truthfully
20
A I would say yes based off of the
21
information they had at the time
Page 19
1
to describe it for me generically I want to
2
make sure that you're not telling me the
3
content of any discussions you've had with the
4
lawyers for PACCAR Okay
5
A Okay It's been quite a few years
6
ago but to the best of my recollection I
7
reviewed the documents that we had at the time
8
I also spoke with -- you know there was some
9
specific areas of inquiry that were of interest
10
at that time frame So I spoke with a lot of
11
people that either were still employed by
12
PACCAR and also to some people who were
13
retired
14
Q right Did you speak with
15
Mr. Bissonnette
16
A I did not
17
Q right Did you speak with
18
Mr. Degenstein
19
A do not recall
20
Q Okay That's fair Okay Did you
21
speak to Mr. Morrison
Page 21
1
Q Does PACCAR agree that when it has
2
signed verified answers to interrogatories in
3
the past it has told the truth
4
A I think to the best of their ability
5
yes
6
Q right
7
A And what I mean by that is based off
8
the information that they had
9
Q Sure The events that we're
10
generally talking about in these cases predate
11
the 1990s would you agree by and large
12
A By and large that is correct
13
Q right And so whatever
14
information was available about for example
15
the operations of Kenworth in the 1970s would
16
have been available to PACCAR in 1993 correct
17
A At least every detail no but to --
18
the way that I would answer that is compared to
19
when
20
You know over time things become
21
less -- I think we would all agree that things
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1
become less and less -- you become less and
2
less confident in the things you hear
3
So you want to ensure that you have
4
some sort of I'm going to say documentation
5
or whatever to substantiate maybe the things
6
that you've heard
7
QI think I asked the question poorly
8
I appreciate your answer
9
Let me try it again Can we agree
10
that any documentation about Kenworth's
11
activities in the 1970s would have existed in
12
1993 or in 2000 In other words new documents
13
about Kenworth's activities in the 70s were
14
not being created in the 90s or the 2000s
15
A I would agree with your last
16
statement
17
Q That's what I was trying to ask
18
Okay
19
A They're not going to be creating new
20
documents
21
Q right And does PACCAR agree
Page 24
1
to deposition questions to Mr. Degenstein and
2
to Mr. Bean regarding whether PACCAR ever
3
passed along any information about the hazards
4
of asbestos to its customers the response from
5
PACCAR was no information was passed on about
6
the dangers of asbestos
7
Subsequently when you've been the
8
corporate designee there's been references to
9
this 1978 brochure from Rockwell
10
And my question to you is when was
11
that located and where
12
A I'll give you to the best of my
13
recollection when and where that was found I
14
believe -- so probably a little bit of
15
background before I answer the question
16
Q Sure
17
A PACCAR over the years has done
18
multiple document sweeps The first one we
19
have record of is '97
20
And it's not exactly every five
21
years but when you look at -- we have records
Page 23
1
that prior to responding under oath in
2
depositions or answers to interrogatories in
3
the past it has conducted a diligent
4
investigation to uncover information
5
responsible to -- responsive to the questions
6
that were being asked
7
A What I would say it that's been my
8
experience
9
Q Okay Fair enough All right I
10
have a question for you There's been a
11
reference in the discovery responses to a 1978
12
Rockwell brochure or manual or some
13
documentation that PACCAR has apparently come
14
into possession of that contains some
15
information about the potential dangers of
16
asbestos from working with friction products
17
Are you familiar with what I'm
18
talking about
19
A believe so
20
Q right Now in response to
21
written discovery interrogatories in response
Page 25
1
of doing document sweeps looking for
2
asbestos information You can kind of
3
average it out and say it's been about every
4
five years
5
I believe that one of those -- well
6
I know one of those document sweeps which was
7
done whenever we changed national coordinating
8
counsel and I believe that document was
9
found -- I can't tell you right now where it
10
was found but it was found during that
11
document sweep I believe
12
Q Was it found in PACCAR's possession
13
In other words was this a document that PACCAR
14
had in its possession or was this a document
15
that PACCAR's new lawyers provided to PACCAR
16
A My understanding is it was a document
17
that was found within PACCAR's documents
18
within our possession
19
Q Did you participate in that document
20
sweep that located that document
21
A I did not participate in finding that
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document if that's what you're asking To the
2
best of my recollection I had a part -- I took
3
part in looking for documents during that
4
document sweep
5
Q Okay Let me ask you sir You
6
indicated the first time such a document sweep
7
or document collection effort to look for
8
asbestos historical documents at PACCAR
9
was in 1997 is that right
10
A Just for clarification I indicated
11
the first one that I've seen records on was
12
1997
13
Q And that's the first one -- as you
14
sit here today as the corporate designee of
15
PACCAR that is the earliest document sweep
16
that PACCAR can identify as we sit here today
17
MR ADAMS Form
18
THE WITNESS Yeah I guess what I
19
would -- what I would qualify that is my
20
understanding is that was a let's go look --
21
when I say document sweep it's let's go look
Page 28
1
at that I have that information somewhere
2
because we've been asked that question quite a
3
while back I don't recall -- I'm going to
4
give you my best estimate I think it was late
5
80s early 90s but that may be off I would
6
have to go back and look
7
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
8
Q One of the things that we requested
9
PACCAR produce in the deposition notice was all
10
discovery responses of PACCAR and any documents
11
that were produced by PACCAR in response to
12
written discovery requests in the first 20
13
lawsuits filed against PACCAR alleging an
14
asbestos personal injury -- asbestos
15
personal injury
16
Now PACCAR has not produced those
17
documents in this case correct
18
A Based off -- based off my
19
understanding I don't think we've produced it
20
for those first 20 cases because I'm not for
21
sure how we would find those first 20 cases
Page 27
1
widely within the organization for documents
2
relating to whatever these subjects are
3
My experience has been not only with
4
asbestos litigation support but other
5
litigation support that we always go look for
6
documents related to a specific case
7
So with that clarification what I
8
would say is 1997 is the first information --
9
is the first information we have that we did a
10
broad sweep for documents related to asbestos
11 litigation
12
I don't know if it was the first one
13
but it's the first one that we have
14
documentation on
15
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
16
Q When was PACCAR first sued as a
17
defendant in a case alleging an injury from
18
asbestos and the use or maintenance of a PACCAR
19 product
20
MR ADAMS Form
21
THE WITNESS You know I have looked
Page 29
1
Q Okay I wasn't asking you why I
2
was just asking you to confirm that it hasn't
3
happened but I appreciate the explanation
4
We may jump arounda little bit here
5
So just bear with me if there are little
6
pauses
7
Does PACCAR have any records or
8
historical information regarding if anything
9
it attempted to do to collect and preserve
10
documents related to its historic use of
11
asbestos products when it was first sued in an
12
asbestos personal injury case in the
13
late 80s or early 90s
14
A I'm not for sure I understand your
15
question Maybe I just didn't follow it If
16
you can reask
17
Q Yeah PACCAR you just told me
18
PACCAR was first sued to the best of your
19
recollection in a case asserting an asbestos
20
personal injury in the late 80s or early 90s
21
right
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Page 30
1
A I said that's my recollection I
2
would have to go back and check I could be
3
wrong on that
4
Q For purposes of today that's the
5
best recollection that PACCAR has in terms of
6
when it was first sued in an asbestos personal
7
injury case right
8
A I would say that's the best
9
recollection that Rod Curbo personally has
10
Q right You're here for PACCAR
11
So I'm going to keep saying that's what PACCAR
12
has And I don't mean it to -- as a
13
correction That's just part of my job in
14
making the record
15
Now with respect to that first
16
lawsuit whenever it happened what if any
17
records does PACCAR have regarding what
18
attempts it undertook at that time to collect
19
and preserve historic information regarding its
20
use of containing products
21
A I'm for sure that I've seen
Page 32
1
documentation or efforts correct
2
MR ADAMS Form
3
THE WITNESS I do not recall seeing
4
any such document that -- I don't recall seeing
5
any documents related to a sweep associated
6
with I would say prior to '97
7
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
8
Q right In 1997 you were not
9
working with the legal department in a capacity
10
that would have put you involved in assisting
11
or conducting a sweep were you
12
A No I was not
13
Q right And prior to 1997 -- so
14
back in the late 80s or early 90s or
15
whenever the first lawsuit was against PACCAR
16
for an asbestos personal injury you were not
17
working with the legal department or assisting
18
in any collection of documents that may have
19
occurred fair
20
A Personally I was not
21
Q right Now you've mentioned a
Page 31
1
anything specifically related to that first
2
case
3
Q AndI guess that's -- and am I
4
correct Mr. Curbo that you are unaware of any
5
actions that PACCAR took to collect and
6
preserve documents regarding its historic use
7
of containing products prior to the
8
1997 sweep that you have described and that you
9
have seen records for
10
A I would say '97 is the first time
11
I've seen documentation on a document sweep I
12
would agree with that
13
Q right And you haven't seen any
14
documentation of any document sweep or any
15
preservation order that went out in the company
16
telling everybody don't ever throw anything out
17
about asbestos or anything else regarding
18
collecting or preserving information regarding
19
PACCAR's historic use of asbestos products
20
prior to the records that relate to the 1997
21
sweep You're unaware of any such
Page 33
1
couple times that you're not aware of any
2
documentation of a sweep prior to 1997. Other
3
than documentation do you have any information
4
that a sweep occurred prior to 1997
5
A No I not
6
Q right
7
A Not that I can recall right now for
8
sure
9
Q Fair enough right Are you
10
familiar with a publication called PACCAR
11
World
12
A Yes
13
Q right And was that a monthly
14
publication or multiple publication
15
that PACCAR put out historically
16
A I think it was quarterly or something
17
like that
18
Q Fair enough And do you know how
19
long PACCAR was putting out PACCAR World prior
20
to your starting with PACCAR
21
A No not
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1
Q What about PACCAR profiles was that
2
another publication that PACCAR periodically
3
put out
4
A I'm not familiar with that
5 publication
6
Q Okay Do you know if PACCAR
7
maintains in its archives or other collections
8
historic copies of PACCAR World
9
A No it does not
10
Q What is the basis of your saying
11
that
12
A Because I've looked We've looked
13
We don't maintain that The publisher
14
maintains some but not - they don't go way
15
back
16
Q Okay
17
A The publisher does maintain some
18
copies some historic copies of PACCAR World
19
Q right Fair enough Now we
20
marked sir as Exhibit 7 PACCAR's answers to
21
interrogatories from a case back in 1997 --
Page 36
1
within our records any hub gaskets that
2
contained asbestos
3
Q right Is there anything else
4
that PACCAR believes was inaccurate about the
5
answers to interrogatories in the Tinker case
6
when they were given
7
MR ADAMS Form
8
THE WITNESS I don't recall
9
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
10
Q right Fair enough All right
11
I'm going to do my best to share my screen here
12
with respect to the Tinker interrogatories
13
And I have a question or two about
14
some of the information there which I don't
15
think is going to be controversial I have way
16
too many windows open now
17
All right Sir do you see on your
18
screen something that says Fan clutches
19
A do
20
Q Okay I've got the right screen up
21
So I'm going to go up to the top here You'll
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 35
well the interrogatory answers were back in
1997 -- in a case called Tinker from New York
When I mentioned that you were nodding your head Is it fair to say you've reviewed the Tinker answers to interrogatories in the past
A Yes It's been quite a few years
ago but yes
Q right Is there any part of the answers to interrogatories in the Tinker case
that PACCAR believes is inaccurate MR ADAMS Form
THE WITNESS To my understanding there is yes
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
Q Okay And what is that A To the best of my recollection I think in the Tinker interrogatories it says something to the effect of gaskets contained -we may have some hub gaskets that contained
asbestos And we have not been able to find
Page 37
1
see here state of New York Seventh Judicial
2
District We've got here the Tinker case
3
caption and Defendant Kenworth Truck Company
4
and PACCAR Inc. Answers to Plaintiffs First
5
Set of Interrogatories
6
Do you see that
7
A Yes
8
Q Okay And if we go down
9
interrogatory number four asks for information
10
regarding purchase of asbestos component parts
11
for the years 1970 to 1980 including for
12
section A clutch products and B brake
13
products and C gaskets
14
And so I'm going to go down to B.
15
Can you see this here
16
A can
17
Q And I'm just going to go to the next
18
page so you see this is all that's listed
19
for B. And we go immediately to C when we go
20
to the next page
21
A Correct
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Page 38
1
Q Now with respect to brakes PACCAR
2
responds that brake friction material has
3
historically been provided by the brake
4
suppliers to PACCAR as a component of the brake
5
assemblies That's a true statement correct
6
A Yes
7
Q And then it states the brake
8
assemblies during the years 1970 to 1980 were
9
supplied by the following companies And it
10
lists Eaton Corporation and Rockwell
11
International Corp correct
12
A It does
13
Q And that's a true statement correct
14
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
15
THE WITNESS Based on the
16
information that I have
17
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
18
Q And as we sit here today am I
19
correct that PACCAR cannot identify any other
20
supplier of brake assemblies for its open road
21
trucks during the time period 1970 to 1980
Page 40
1
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
2
Q right But as we sit here today
3
you cannot identify during the time period 1970
4
to 1980 any manufacturer of brake assemblies
5
other than Eaton and Rockwell that supplied
6
brake assemblies for PACCAR road
7
trucks correct
8
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
9
MR QUIGG Objection Form
10
THE WITNESS I'm going to say what I
11
said before It's the same answer They
12
supplied the majority of the brakes to the
13
best of my knowledge I have no reason
14
to believe that there weren't some other
15
volume suppliers
16
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
17
Q But you can't identify any of those
18
suppliers as we sit here today
19
A Not I sit here today but I have
20
no reason to believe that there are not some
21
additional volume suppliers
Page 39
1
other than Eaton Corp and Rockwell
2
A I think what we've --
3
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
4
THE WITNESS I think what we've said
5
since I've been involved is those are the major
6 suppliers
7
We know for instance that the truck
8
has a -- let's say it's a six truck
9
meaning you know like a four but it's
10
got a drive axle Most of the time
11
those brakes on that drive axle are
12
provided by that axle manufacturer
13
So I wouldn't say -- even during the
14
70s and 80s based on my experience I would
15
say you know that's -- the wide majority of
16
the trucks were probably -- the majority of the
17
brakes were probably supplied by Eaton and
18
Rockwell but we built custom trucks And so I
19
would fully expect there to be some exceptions
20
to that
21
Page 41
1
Q right No other suppliers were
2
identified by PACCAR in its answers to
3
interrogatories in 1997 in the Tinker case
4
correct
5
A Based off of this there were not
6
Q I'm going to come back and share this
7
again Okay Do you see interrogatory number
8
nine on your screen
9
A do
10
Q Here it states relabeling asbestos
11
component parts and it asks whether the
12
defendant from 1970 through 1980 engaged in the
13
relabeling or rebranding of any
14
containing products listed in
15
interrogatory number four manufactured in
16
whole or in part by someone else
17
And in response here in the
18
answer to number nine PACCAR states
19
Kenworth has not engaged in
20
relabeling or rebranding any of the asbestos
21
component parts listed in interrogatory number
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Page 42
Page 44
1
four from 1970 through 1980.
2
And you recall from our looking at
3
number four that one of the things identified
4
were brake linings and brake assemblies
1
recall -- that were involved with PACCAR parts
2
and drop -- I said drop sorry --
3
direct programs they don't recall a
4
direct program related with brakes
5 correct
6
A Let's go back and look at the
5
So we haven't been able to confirm
6
the documents that Abex produced through any
7
interrogatory number four
8
Q Sure So here in 4B brake friction
7
information in our company
8
Q Okay I appreciate --
9
material has historically been provided by
9
A We're not saying it didn't happen
10
brake suppliers to pressurize components of the
10
We're just simply saying we haven't been able
11
brake assemblies And then the brake
11
to confirm that
12
assemblies Right And then you'll look here
13
in the question for number four it asks for
14
asbestos component parts correct
12
Q When did PACCAR first become aware of
13
these Abex documents
14
A I don't remember the exact date
15
A That's correct
16
Q right So in interrogatory
17
number nine PACCAR states that it did not
18
engage in the rebranding of any asbestos
19
component parts which would include brake
20
linings and brake assemblies correct
21
A That's correct
15
Probably in the last I would say year or two
16
maybe Probably less than two years I think
17
Q Was it in connection with this case
18
the Morris case or was it in connection with
19
something else
20
A I believe -- it was prior to the
21
Morris case I believe That's to the best of
Page 43
1
Q Okay Now in this case there has
2
been a reference to PACCAR having some
3
information that Abex may have put PACCAR brand
4
names onto replacement brakes or containers of
5
replacement brakes correct
6
A That's correct
7
Q Okay How did PACCAR come into that
8 information
9
A Abex produced some documents which
10
indicate to the best that we've been able to
11
determine is that there was a drop
12
program a or direct program
13
We have looked to -- within our
14
documents to see if we can confirm that I've
15
actually also talked to some of the people
16
whose names were on the Abex documents
17
And to this point I can't find any
18
documents that substantiate or confirm the
19
information that Abex produced nor have I been
20
able to get at least three people -- I believe
21
three people that I've talked to don't
Page 45
1
my personal knowledge
2
Q right Has PACCAR produced those
3
documents today
4
A sorry Say that again I
5
couldn't hear you
6
Q Has PACCAR produced those documents
7
in this case produced them to me
8
A don't know
9
MR RUCKDESCHEL All right Well
10
we're going to go ahead and mark the documents
11
that Mr. Curbo has just identified as Exhibit
12
29 to this deposition
13
Curbo Deposition Exhibit 29 marked
14
for identification
15
MR RUCKDESCHEL And Counsel I
16
will work out with you the mechanics of getting
17
those to the court reporter as they're clearly
18
responsive to the deposition notice and the
19
discovery requests in this case
20
MR ADAMS I will just say obviously
21
we'll work with you on whatever we need to
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1 2 3 4 5 fi 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 46
But these are not documents that were
maintained in the possession of PACCAR So they're not documents that we can attest as true and correct They came from litigation
from another company And Abex would be the proper party to get those documents from But we will work that out
MR RUCKDESCHEL These are documents
that are responsive to our discovery requests that are requesting documents and information that PACCAR's designee has reviewed and considered in preparation for this deposition Mr. Curbo has testified in that regard We can find out with the judge if we need to I think we both made our position clear
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
Q Mr. Curbo can you please identify for me the three people that you've spoken to with respect to these Abex documents that you just mentioned
A I know you were going to ask that
Page 48
1
A Yeah I don't have that information
2
with me and I don't recall the other two
3
people's names
4
Q Fair enough I'm just trying to stop
5
the sharing of the document I think I've done
6
that right You got me back and not the
7
document
A have me back
9
Q right You got you back Even
10
better I always find it odd to have the big
11
screen be me
12
MR ADAMS We can change it on the
13
break if you want to see Jon
14
MR RUCKDESCHEL I promise you
15
that's not an improvement
16
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
17
Q right Mr. Curbo am I correct
18
that in the time period between 1968 and 1980
19
Rockwell's class A road trucks -- and
20
let's just limit it to the W900 and the -- is
21
it K100
Page 47
1
One of them was a gentleman with the last name
2
Titus
3
Q Can you spell that T
4
A That's correct And the other two I
5
cannot remember their names
6
Q How did you come across their --
7
they're referenced in the Abex documents
8
A Yes
9
Q And how did you track Mr. Titus and
10
the other two down
11
A I believe they talked with our legal
12
department to check and see if anybody had
13
contact information for -- might have contact
14
information for those people They were no
15
longer working -- no longer with the company
16
retired I believe
17
Q Okay And as we sit here today am I
18
correct that you cannot provide me with their
19
names or their contact information or any
20
contact information for Mr. Titus other than
21
his last name
Page 49
1
MR MARSHALL Objection to form
2
THE WITNESS You said Rockwell
3
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
4
Q Let me start over Sorry
5
Mr. Curbo during the time period 1965 through
6
1980 am I correct that the Kenworth K100 and
7
Kenworth W900 would come standard with cam
8
brakes
9
A I believe that that's accurate
10
Q Okay And let's just -- sorry I'm
11
going to go ahead and pull up the document that
12
I was going to refer to if we needed to Bear
13
with me
14
Okay In the Morris case PACCAR
15
provided answers to plaintiffs master
16
interrogatories
17
You'll see here we have the Morris
18
case caption and Defendant PACCAR Inc.'s
19
Objection to Answers to Plaintiffs Master
20
Interrogatories
21
Do you see that
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Page 50
Page 52
1
A do Can you make it wider
2
Q can Is that better
3
A Yeah that way I can read it if I
4
need to
1
asbestos the brake lining manufacturers
2
completed their transition in 1990.
3
Did I read that correct
4
A You did
5
Q course So I'm going to roll down
5
Q right It then says Wedge
6
to page 26 and interrogatory 13. And I want to
6
brakes were typically used on a small
7
read for you this paragraph here
7
subsection of heavy trucks either
8
But let's -- interrogatory number 13
8
specifying lightweight components or used in
9
asks if you discontinued mining
10
manufacturing blah blah blah asbestos
9
highway applications
10
Did I read that correctly
11
products have been identified previously give
11
A You did
12
the date of the discontinuance
12
Q right Am I correct sir that
13
PACCAR then has a long series of
13
for a mill Kenworth truck built in
14
objections and then says Subject to and
14
1974 that was an average box trailer on the
15
without waiving the foregoing objections And
15
highways that standard equipment for that
16
it provides an answer
16
truck would have been cam brakes
17
The third paragraph of that answer
17
MR ADAMS Object to form
18
says PACCAR is informed and believes that for
18
THE WITNESS I would expect for the
19
those cam brakes used in typical applications
19
most part that a truck as you described it
20
on Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks that
20
would most likely have cam brakes
21
historically contained asbestos the brake
21
Page 51
1
lining manufacturers completed their transition
2
to nonasbestos in 1987.
3
Did I read that correctly
4
A You did
5
Q Am correct that PACCAR agrees that
6
the typical road class A truck that
7
was sold by Kenworth or Peterbilt in the 1965
8
to 1980 time frame came with cam brakes
9
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
10
MR RUCKDESCHEL Madam Reporter
11
that's S hyphen cam m
12
THE WITNESS I want to make sure I
13
understood your question
14
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
15
Q right Let me try -- let me ask
16
it -- so let's look at the next sentence
17
The next sentence in the response
18
says PACCAR is informed and believes that for
19
certain severe duty applications and wedge
20
brakes used on Kenworth and Peterbilt
21
heavy trucks that historically contained
Page 53
1
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
2
Q Okay And there were things called
3
wedge brakes that were as described in this
4
response to interrogatory number 13 used on
5
specialty applications for heavy or
6
road trucks correct
7
A Or trucks who wanted lighter weight
8
Q Right Okay We're going to stay
9
with these answers to master interrogatories
10
which have been marked as Exhibit 4. I'm going
11
to share it again
12
Now in response to interrogatory -
13
interrogatory number five asks if you have
14
divisions which have ever manufactured
15
produced blah blah blah --
16
A I'm seeing like your --
17
MR ADAMS Yeah you're showing your
18
file
19
MR RUCKDESCHEL You're seeing the
20
wrong screen Thank you so much
21
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Page 54
1
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
2
Q Let's try it again share desktop
3
Let's try that again All right Do you see
4
interrogatory five
5
A do
6
Q Great All right So interrogatory
7
five summarized asks whether the defendant
8
ever sold or put into the stream of commerce
9
products that contained asbestos and asks for
10
some information about them
11
A Correct
12
Q And in response one of the things
13
that PACCAR says -- and I'm rolling down --
14
here on -- I'm just going to go to page 11 of
15
the responses
16
In response to number five it
17
states Kenworth and Peterbilt provided
18
service literature authored by the component
19
suppliers to dealers and customers
20
Specifically Kenworth and Peterbilt
21
provided their dealers with master shop manuals
Page 56
1
THE WITNESS I'm trying to figure
2
out how to answer that question because if I'm
3
a customer if I own a truck and I'm not going
4
to be doing my own maintenance why would I
5
purchase a maintenance manual
6
So I guess if you're asking have I
7
seen any documentation where we encouraged
8
customers to purchase a custom maintenance
9
manual not that I recall right now as I sit
10
here I know that they were available And we
11
have -- I've seen samples of that
12
I also know that in every truck the
13
maintenance manual -- there was a Peterbilt or
14
a Kenworth maintenance manual And then the
15
manuals that went along with the components
16
that belonged -- that that truck was built with
17
were also placed in every truck
18
So for instance you mentioned the
19
'78 Rockwell manual Those -- manuals from
20
those suppliers from our brake suppliers axle
21
suppliers transmission suppliers engine
Page 55
1
that were comprised of a series of three
2
binders which included component supplier
3
service manuals
4
Kenworth Peterbilt also made these
5
master shop manuals available to end users for
6 purchase
7
And then it states Customers could
8
also purchase custom maintenance manuals that
9
include only specific information for their
10
specific truck
11
Did I read that correctly
12
A You did
13
Q right Did Kenworth or Peterbilt
14
divisions of PACCAR take any steps to advise
15
the end users of their trucks that it was
16
important for them to purchase the master shop
17
manual or the custom maintenance manual so
18
that they would have information on how to
19
safely work with or around a Kenworth and
20
Peterbilt truck
21
MR ADAMS Form
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 57
suppliers were placed in the trucks based off of the components that the truck was built
with
So they did come with manuals A custom manual was one that was put together with all of that information I call it bound together if you will in some type of a
binder
So beyond making those available I don't know that I've -- I don't recall seeing anything that encouraged people to purchase them beyond making them available It's a long
answer
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
Q And correct sir that PACCAR has no documents or evidence that any purchaser of a Kenworth truck or a Peterbilt truck prior to 1978 would have received with the truck
either in PACCAR documentation or any other
documentation that came with the truck any information about the potential hazards of
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Page 58
1
asbestos related to any parts of the truck
2
A As understand your question you're
3
asking do we have any documentation that would
4
indicate that And I have not seen any
5
documentation that indicates that we would have
6
passed along any information associated with
7
asbestos
8
Q right And in addition to -- and
9
this is just the way we lawyers think because
10
we're paranoid You just said we don't have
11
any documentation about that Am I correct
12
that PACCAR has no other information that it
13
passed along information regarding the
14
potential dangers of asbestos to the end users
15
of its trucks prior to the 1978 Rockwell brake
16
maintenance manual
17
A Can you rephrase the question
18
Q Sure So I'm asking now -- not just
19
confining it to documents -- PACCAR doesn't
20
have any other information it doesn't have
21
for example a statement of a witness or a
Page 60
1
Aside from that I don't believe we
2
have any as you called it additional
3
information that predates the 1978 document
4
that we found
5
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
6
Q Okay What documentation does PACCAR
7
have that reflects that with every truck that
8
it sold the purchaser of the truck received
9
documentation from the manufacturer of the
10
actual brake assemblies
11
A Now unfortunately we don't have
12
very good documentation
13
The way that that worked is when the
14
truck got back into our test department there
15
were racks which held these various manuals
16
And the test mechanics would take the order
17
So as the truck went down -- a little
18
bit of background As the truck goes down the
19
line you have a build paper which is
20
essentially a reorganized version of the final
21
chassis building material It's organized in
Page 59
1
recording of you know a video of some prior
2
employee that said well I know we don't have
3
any documents of it but I remember in '72 we
4
were sending out information about OSHA
5
PACCAR doesn't have any other
6
nondocumentary evidence that that happened
7
prior to 1978 in the Rockwell brake maintenance
8
manual correct
9
MR ADAMS Form
10
THE WITNESS I'm trying to think if
11
I've seen anything or heard anything
12
I guess the way that I would answer
13
that is -- let's talk brakes for a second or
14
clutches Those components were manufactured
15
by our suppliers Those were their components
16
And we provided their documentation
17
We passed along the information that
18
they provided And we do know through
19
speaking -- we do know that -- I believe
20
Rockwell began including warnings in their
21
maintenance manuals in 1976
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 61
build station order And then you would have the sales
order which is the option codes that the
customer ordered The test mechanic would take
that sales order They would read on it that it's got a Cummins engine So he would pick up a Cummins engine book
He would read that it has Rockwell
front brakes Rockwell front axle Rockwell rear axle Eaton rear axle whichever one it was and they would pull those books off and put them in the truck
I know that happened prior to my time
at Peterbilt proper because I was a truck mechanic in the late 70s
And I know that it happened because being at a Peterbilt dealership I would see
new trucks come in with those -- with those
manuals in it Sorry That a was little bit
of diversion
Q It's great I appreciate it
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Page 62
1
MR ADAMS Jon we've been going
2
about an hour Can we take five and let him
3
walk around a little bit or do you --
4
MR RUCKDESCHEL Let me just finish
5
this line of questioning and then we will in
6
three or four minutes
7
MR ADAMS For sure
8
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
9
Q Mr. Curbo when you were working
10
at the Peterbilt dealership as a truck
11
mechanic when did you start doing that When
12
did you start working there
13
A About '76 '77 time frame
14
Q Okay And did that dealership keep
15
trucks for lack of a better phrase on the lot
16
for sale as well as having customers come in
17
and order trucks to their individual
18
specification
19
A Yes
20
Q right So it worked like --
21
like a car dealership but with trucks
Page 64
1
have personal knowledge And they confirmed
2
the process was as I explained
3
MR RUCKDESCHEL I appreciate your
4
explanation sir I was just asking whether
5
you had personal knowledge of that
6
And why don't we go ahead and take
7
our break right now So let's come back --
8
it's 11:38 Eastern Why don't we come back at
9
11:45
10
MR ADAMS That's perfect
11
THE VIDEOGRAPHER We're going off
12
record The time is 11:39 a.m.
13
Recess taken -- 11:39 a.m.
14
After recess -- 11:47 a.m.
15
THE VIDEOGRAPHER We're back on the
16
record The time is 11:47 a.m.
17
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
18
Q Mr. Curbo we're back from our break
19
I'm going to share another document with you
20
I've put up on the screen PACCAR
21
Inc.'s Answers to Interrogatories from the
Page 63
1
A I would say from a hundred thousand
2
foot view you might say it worked like a car
3
dealership The reality is in the details It
4
was significantly different
5
Q right Got it And with respect
6
to that you don't have any personal knowledge
7
that the Kenworth division of PACCAR was
8
placing component manuals in the glove box of
9
the new Kenworth trucks prior to 1980 correct
10
A I don't have personal knowledge but
11
I have done research talked to some people
12
people that worked at the Kenworth plants and
13
the -- back into the 70s on the Kenworth side
14
And they did exactly the same thing
15
they did at Peterbilt And Peterbilt guys
16
have -- there was a guy who worked in test in
17
the late 60s who actually confirmed that we
18
did the exact process that I spoke to
19
So personally Rod Curbo doesn't have
20
personal knowledge of what Kenworth was doing
21
but I have talked to people at Kenworth who did
Page 65
1
Third Judicial Circuit of Madison County
2
Illinois in the In Re et al Asbestos
3
Litigation filed by the Simmons firm
4
Do you see that
--
A do
6
Q Okay Let me just see if I can't --
7
at the end of these we have an attestation
8
signed by Bob Morrison
9
And he signs here that he's
10
authorized to respond to these interrogatories
11
on behalf of PACCAR Inc. In my capacity as
12
technical center general manager
13
Do you see that
14
A do
15
Q right And that's consistent
16
with your understanding of what Mr. Morrison
17
was doing for PACCAR in 2004 correct
18
A It must be That's what he said I
19
do recall that he was also general manager of
20
the tech center
21
Q Got Okay Great I have two
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Page 66
1
interrogatories I would like to look at
2
Here interrogatory number 77 asks
3
PACCAR to describe in detail any tests -- any
4
and all tests if any -- that's not very well
5
worded -- conducted by the defendant and
6
predecessor or any related company or anyone
7
acting on behalf thereof concerning the
8
quantity quality or threshold limit values of
9
asbestos dust or particles to which applicators
10
or consumers of containing products
11
were exposed while using any product identified
12
in response to interrogatory numbers 19 and 42
13
And then it has a long list of things
14
it wants described
15
PACCAR's answer is The consumers of
16
PACCAR's heavy trucks were truck owners
17
and operators PACCAR did not perform any
18
tests concerning the level of asbestos dust to
19
which these persons may be exposed
20
Did I read that correctly the
21
answer
Page 68
1
ever spoken to Mr. Bissonnette or taken a
2
statement from him
3
A believe the attorneys may have
4
spoken to Mr. Bissonnette
5
Q Okay And what's the basis of that
6
understanding
7
A I'm going off of memory but it seems
8
to me that -- I don't remember if it was
9
house counsel or external counsel but I
10
believe some of the attorneys may have spoken
11
with him It's just a memory that I have
12
Q understand Are you aware of
13
whether Mr. Bissonnette ever provided any
14
written or recorded statements to PACCAR or any
15
of its lawyers
16
A not
17
Q Where were the documents that reflect
18
the testing Mr. Bissonnette allegedly performed
19
located
20
A I'm not for sure I would have to
21
check on that
Page 67
1
A You did
2
Q Okay I knowI didn't read the
3
question correctly because I interjected about
4
the poor grammar
5
Now amI correct that PACCAR now
6
claims that it did perform or that
7
Mr. Bissonnette performed some dust tests to
8
evaluate the potential exposures of individuals
9
performing brake or clutch repair on PACCAR
10
trucks
11
A That's correct In my tenure as --
12
acting as PACCAR's corporate rep we found some
13
documents from Mr. Bissonnette that indicated
14
that he did do some testing
15
Q Was Mr. Bissonnette alive when you
16
found those documents
17
A I don't know
18
Q Have you ever spoken to
19
Mr. Bissonnette
20
A have not
21
Q Do you know if PACCAR's lawyers have
Page 69
1
Q Were records kept of where documents
2
like that were found when sweeps were performed
3
for documents
4
A Not that I've seen
5
Q What explanation if any does PACCAR
6
have for why it had not discovered those
7
documents as of the date in 2004 when
8
Mr. Morrison verified interrogatory number 77
9
which states PACCAR never performed any such
10
testing
11
A I think the only thing that I can
12
tell you is you know we've done multiple
13
document sweeps
14
Why would we do -- it's kind of the
15
same answer Why would we do multiple document
16
sweeps Because we might be looking in the
17
wrong places You might not be looking for
18
exactly the right information
19
You know there's literally thousands
20
and thousands of boxes probably hundreds of
21
thousands of files It's the same answer that
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Page 70
1
I would probably give why do we for every
2
case also -- if we don't already have the
3
information why do we go look again to see if
4
we can find that information
5
And so the only explanation that I
6
could give is you know every time we do a
7
document sweep we find some documents here or
8 there
9
Now whether or not they're relevant
10
to specific cases is you know one of those
11
things that's up for discussion but I can only
12
say that at that time they had not found those
13 documents
14
Q right Thank you sir
15
The next one I have a question for
16
you about is answer to interrogatory number 94
17
It begins on page 35 of Exhibit 6 which is the
18
document we're looking at
19
Interrogatory number 94 asks PACCAR
20
to identify any and all trade organizations
21
associations or other entities including but
Page 72
1
Q Do you know whether those documents
2
still exist
3
A can't tell you
4
Q Have you ever seen documents that
5
reflect the dates of membership of PACCAR in
6
the National Safety Council in your 15 years or
7
so of working in this capacity
A have not
9
Q The answer then continues It was a
10
member of the Motor Vehicle Manufacturers
11
Association for several years
12
Did I read that correctly
13
A You did
14
Q When was PACCAR or any of its
15
divisions a member of the Motor Vehicle
16
Manufacturers Association
17
A I don't know
18
Q Have you ever seen any documentation
19
reflecting its membership in the MVMA the
20
Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association
21
A I've seen some documents from the
Page 71
Page 73
1
not limited to -- and it lists a number of
1
MVMA And we have looked to ascertain whether
2
organizations here including the National
3
Safety Council
4
Do you see that
5
A do
2
or not we were members of the MVMA And we
3
have not been able to determine whether we were
4
just receiving some information from them or
5
whether we were members
6
Q right And in response PACCAR
7
answers PACCAR's records of trade association
8
memberships are not complete It was a member
9
of the National Safety Council from
10
44-7
6
Q right Other than the fact that
7
here in 2004 PACCAR admitted it was a member
8
for several years it just doesn't specify
9
which years right
10
A That's correct This is the first
11
Did I read that correctly
12
A You did
11
time I've seen these responses
12
Q Well PACCAR would not have put this
13
Q Okay And so here PACCAR
14
acknowledges that it was a member of the
13
information in these answers to interrogatories
14
if it did not believe it to be true correct
15
National Safety Council from August 1st of 1944
15
MR ADAMS Form
16
through July 19th of 1996 correct
17
A Yeah it does
16
THE WITNESS I don't believe that
17
they would put those -- that information in
18
Q And what documents did PACCAR -- what
18
there if they didn't believe it to be true at
19
records did PACCAR look at to ascertain that
19
the time
20
very precise information
20
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
21
A I can't tell you
21
Q Right Okay And you're not aware
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Page 74
1
of any information that PACCAR has come across
2
since these were assigned in 2004 that
3
indicates that PACCAR was never in fact a
4
member of the Motor Vehicle Manufacturers
5
Association correct
6
A sorry had a hard time
7
following that question
8
Q You're not aware of any information
9
that has come to light to PACCAR since 2004
10
that would demonstrate that this statement
11
about its membership in the Motor Vehicle
12
Manufacturers Association was false you just
13
haven't been able to confirm it is that fair
14
A I think I would say two things This
15
is the first time I've seen anything that
16
indicated that we were in fact members of
17
MVMA It was a question in my mind because we
18
found some MVMA documents We have looked for
19
information to determine whether or not we were
20
MVMA members and have not been able to find
21
anything to confirm that
Page 76
1
Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association of the
2
United States letterhead bearing a date of
3
May 24 1984
4
Do you see that
5
A do
6
Q This is a letter addressed to John
7
Martonik M the deputy director
8
of the health standards program at the
9
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
10
in Washington D.C.
11
Do you see that
12
A do
13
Q Okay It then indicates that the
14
Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association of the
15
United States Inc. MVMA and there's a little
16
asterisk is a nonprofit trade association
17
whose members produce more than 99 percent of
18
the domestically produced motor vehicle and
19
employ nearly 700,000 workers
20
Did I read that correctly
21
A You did
Page 75
1
So I think if you look at some of our
2
more recent -- I'm trying to figure out whether
3
we were consistent on this -- but I believe we
4
said something to the effect that we may have
5
been
6
Q Right
7
A But we didn't have -- we don't have
8
anything that confirms that
9
Q You're unaware as we sit here
10
today -- PACCAR is unaware as we sit here today
11
what the basis was for PACCAR swearing in 2004
12
that it was a member of the Motor Vehicle
13
Manufacturers Association for several years
14
you're just not aware of what the basis was at
15
that time
16
A I'm aware of what the basis was
17
at that time
18
Q Fair enough Okay I'm going to
19
skip ahead in exhibits to Exhibit 24. I'm
20
going to try to share this for you
21
Okay Exhibit 24 is the document on
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 77
Q Okay And if we go down to the asterisk here it indicates MVMA members are American Motors Corporation Chrysler Corporation Ford Motor Company General Motors Corporation International Harvester Company MAN Truck and Bus Corporation PACCAR Inc. Volkswagen of America Inc. and Volvo North America Corporation
Did I read that correctly
A You did
Q Have you ever seen documents from the MVMA before like this one that indicate that PACCAR was in fact a member of the MVMA
A Not that I recall Like I said
we've looked for some
Q right All right The next
series of documents that I would like to look
at with you are documents regarding the
Kenworth K100 K100 and W900 trucks and some related documents with that
So I'm going to bring these up and
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Page 78
1
see if we can work through this efficiently
2
I'm going to start with Exhibit 13 which is a
3
document -- a brochure entitled The Kenworth
4 Family
5
Do you see that
6
A do
7
Q right And that's the Kenworth
8
logo there on the cover of this document
9
right
10
A Correct
11
Q That would be the emblem that you
12
would see on trucks during the vintage of the
13
time that the emblem looked like that right
14
A Yeah I believe so If I understand
15
your question right yeah
16
Q So when we go to the first page here
17
of this brochure there's a page that describes
18
the W900 and some pictures of it and then on
19
the facing page there's a description of the
20
K100
21
Do you see that
Page 80
1
of the K100 here and this elevated sleeper
2
compartment -- elevated roof on the sleeper
3
compartment which was released by Kenworth on
4
its trucks in 1976
5
A I believe what you said is accurate
6
Q Okay All right Now am I correct
7
that the W900 and the K100 were the main
8
road tractors that Kenworth sold
9
during the 1965 to 1980 time frame
10
A don't remember when the W900 or the
11
K100 began production but in general at
12
least in the later parts of that date range I
13
would agree
14
Q Okay And then Kenworth also made
15
other trucks like the C500 That was a real
16
heavy truck for heavy applications
17
like hauling logging stuff or mining ore
18
right
19
A Correct
20
Q Okay And then the L700 here on the
21
facing page this was a smaller truck that was
Page 79
1
A do
2
Q right And just for purposes of
3
background the W900 is that what's called a
4
conventional truck
5
A Yes
6
Q And a conventional truck is one that
7
has the engine out in front under a hood like
8
a sedan right
9
A Correct
10
Q And the K100 is something called a
11
engine or a COE truck is that right
12
A Correct
13
Q And that's the truck that has the
14
flat front like reflected here in the picture
15
of the K100
16
A That's right
17
Q right And I haven't been able
18
to find a year a specific year in this
19
brochure but amI correct that we can at least
20
determine that this brochure relates to the
21
1976 model year or later because of the roof
Page 81
1
designed with being used in cities or other
2
tight spaces correct
3
A Basically mostly for refuse for
4
garbage trucks
LO
Q Right Okay Yeah And they
6
describe it here as the super rugged super
7
responsive low cab forward truck designed and
8
engineered for the urban market
9
Do you see that
10
A I don't see it but it sounds
11
accurate
12
Q I'm zooming in here
13
A Okay There it is
14
Q Right And the first thing that they
15
say is this is the one that's built special for
16
refuse And then it continues right
17
A Right
18
Q Okay And then you have some nice
19
pictures of various Kenworth trucks here And
20
then there's some real specialty models that
21
Kenworth made for special applications And
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Page 82
1
so like the K184 down here on the left this
2
was an eight truck right
3
So that would mean it had four drive
4
axles is that right
5
A Four drive wheels So basically two
6
drive axles in the rear and a tandem front
7
axle tandem steer front axle
8
Q Got Right And that's what we
9
see here because the two front wheels are both
10
turned
11
A Correct
12
Q And then we've got one here that's
13
got something like a crane on it And there's
14
one for oilfield work These were specialty
15
trucks that Kenworth also made and sold as part
16
of its business correct
17
A That's correct
18
Q Okay I think those are the
19
questions thatI have for you regarding 13
20
And let's just go down to the next thing I've
21
got here
1 2 3 4 -- -- 6 7 8
9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 84
Q Okay And Kenworth had its own print shop is that right or its own print division Kenworth Printing --
A I'm not -
Q -- or PACCAR did A PACCAR publishing they didn't do their own printing but they would I guess do the formatting and the artwork is my
recollection
Q Okay And you've seen documents like
this Exhibit 14 before in your work for PACCAR
and in your work as the corporate designee
correct
A I've seen similar documents yes QAnd QAnd this is the type of document that
PACCAR's Kenworth division would issue in the
ordinary course of its business back in the time period that we're talking about the 70s and 80s correct
A Yes Like I said I've seen these types of document
Page 83
1
Now one of the things that Kenworth
2
did was produce for its trucks brochures that
3
would list the standard and optional equipment
4
that were available for a particular model in a
5
particular year is that fair
6
A In general I would agree with that
7
statement
8
Q And here we have a page document
9
that we're going to come back up in but I
10
wanted to show you at the bottom here you see
11
this is Kenworth And we've got the Kenworth
12
logo here on the bottom left
13
A Correct
14
Q states Kenworth Truck Company
15
P.O. Box 1000 Kirkland Washington a division
16
of PACCAR correct
17
A Correct
18
Q And then down in here it says that
19
it was LITHO in the USA and KW Pub 6-81
20
right
21
A That's correct
Page 85
1
Q And one of the things -- you can see
2
this was at one point three punched This
3
is the type of material that Kenworth would
4
provide to its dealers and to other people that
5
were interested so that they could figure out
6
whether they wanted to order special equipment
7
on a truck when ordering a truck right
8
A Well what I would say is this is
9
more what I would call a sales brochure
10
sheet
11
Q Perfect
12
A When someone ordered a truck there
13
was a price but those price books typically
14
contained -- I mean there was hundreds of
15
option codes that they would choose from This
16
is what I would say in general is a type of
17
specification sheet
18
Q Right right So we'll call
19
this -- is it okay if we just call it the sales
20
brochure then I think that's one of the
21
phrases you just used Just tell me what to
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Page 86
Page 88
1
call it
1
12,000 capacity up to a 20,000
2
A I would call it a spec sheet And it
2
capacity correct
3
is a sales brochure but like the first
3
A Correct
4
document you showed me is what I would call a
4
Q And you could get single or dual
5
sales brochure I would call this a spec
5
wedge brakes if you didn't want cam brakes
6
sheet It's different
6
right
7
Q It was typical for Kenworth to put
8
out spec sheets like this for each model --
7
A Correct
8
Q And if we go back up in the standard
9
each truck for each model year
10
A I wouldn't say for each model but
11
for -- maybe not all models but yes it was
12
typical for them to put out specification
13
sheets like this
9
equipment they also list the standard rear
10
axle as the Rockwell SQ100 hypoid
11
h single reduction tandem axle
12
correct
13
A That's correct
14
Q Okay And so if you look here at
15
1981 it tells us in the first page here that
16
the standard equipment -- it says optional
17
equipment shown available upon request
18
referring to the picture here But it then
19
lists the standard equipment And it lists the
20
standard engine
21
This would be the engine that would
14
Q And tandem axle is one where there
15
are four sets of wheels two axles in the back
16
and four sets of wheels each set having two
17
wheels on each side
18
A Correct
19
Q And then as an option if we go back
20
down to options on the rear axles you can get
21
a single or dual drive What does that mean
Page 87
1
come with the K100 in 1981 if the customer did
2
not say they wanted a different engine is that
3
fair
4
A That's fair
5
Q right And same with the cooling
6
system it also lists the clutch and the drive
7
line right
8
A Correct
9
Q And then down here it lists as the
10
standard equipment front axle the Rockwell --
11
let me zoom in a little bit -- TW And
12
then it tells you what the rating is for it
13
right
14
A Correct
15
Q Okay And if we go down to the third
16
page of the spec sheet it then lists optional
17
equipment and you can get a different front
18
axle if you wanted right
19
A Correct
20
Q And it says you get Eaton axles in a
21
12,000 capacity or Rockwell axles in a
Page 89
1
A One axle or two axles So single
2
axle is one axle Dual axle is two axles -- or
3
dual drive is two axles
4
Q And the reference to drive there is
5
because this is the axle that's providing the
6
propulsion for the truck
7
A Correct
8
Q Got Okay And then it says you
9
can get -- you can get a single or dual drive
10
You can get Rockwell or Eaton as an option
11
And you can get different capacities depending
12
on whether they audio fade
13
A I'm sorry you kind of broke up at
14
the end of that question I couldn't hear it
15
Q You could get different capacities
16
depending on whether they were single or dual
17
A Correct
18
Q right And you could also
19
hear -- get wedge brakes for the rear brakes as
20
well correct
21
A That's correct
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Page 90
1
Q Okay But the standard brake -- if
2
you didn't order something special the
3
standard axle that would come with the 1981
4
T100 - I'm sorry K100 -- would be this
5
Rockwell dual axle and in the back the drive
6
axle and the front axle would be the Rockwell
7
FF TW right
8
A I think you said the standard brake
9
would be the axle So no that's not correct
10
Q meant to say the standard axle
11
A Okay The standard axle for that
12
model during that time frame would be the
13
Rockwell axle
14
Q Okay And if we look here the
15
standard equipment for the service brakes would
16
be the change type In the front
17
would be 15 by 4 inches and the back would be a
18
16 1/2 by 7 inch cam correct
19
A That's correct
20
Q And am correct that ordinarily
21
unless someone asked Kenworth specifically a
Page 92
1
by the customer I believe that there are
2
times when the customer didn't have to select
3
it It was just set up that way but it was
4
also an option
5
Q Does PACCAR have any documentation
6
that at any time between 1965 and 1980 the K100
7
or the W900 had a Rockwell axle standard
8
equipment like listed on this spec sheet but
9
had Eaton brakes standard
10
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
11
THE WITNESS I can't tell you --
12
what I can tell you is that I have seen trucks
13
that were manufactured with an Eaton or
14
Rockwell axle And without matching supplier
15
brakes meaning I've seen Eaton axles with
16
Rockwell brakes and vice verse And I've also
17
seen -- yeah
18
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
19
Q understand I've read your
20
testimony from the Pawlik case where you
21
testified back in 2020 that you had seen that
Page 91
1
Rockwell axle would have Rockwell brakes on it
2
when a truck was constructed by Kenworth
3
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
45
THE WITNESS No I can't agree with
5
that statement
6
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
7
Q Okay Have you testified in the past
8
that the typical arrangement for PACCAR was
9
that unless somebody ordered for
10
example an Eaton brake to be put on a Rockwell
11
axle Rockwell axles would get Rockwell brakes
12
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
13
THE WITNESS I believe what I've
14
testified to in the past is that in general
15
that statement is accurate If you have an
16
Eaton axle you'll get Eaton brakes Rockwell
17
axles will get Rockwell brakes But that's not
18
always the case
19
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
20
Q And that's really whatI asked
21
A Except you said it had to be selected
Page 93
1
happen It was more than once but you
2
couldn't say it was more than five times All
3
right And that was on August 11th 11th of 2020 in
4
the Pawlik case on page 54 and 55
5
My question is slightly different
6
My question is as we sit here today can
7
PACCAR provide me with any documentation or
8
evidence that the standard equipment
9
configuration like the standard equipment
10
configuration listed on Exhibit 14 for the
11
1981 K100 was for a Rockwell axle with an
12
Eaton brake or an Eaton axle with a Rockwell
13
brake standard on the K100 or the W900 at any
14
time between 1965 and 1980
15
MR QUIGG Form
16
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
17
THE WITNESS Can you scroll up to
18
what it shows to be standard for the brakes
19
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
20
Q Yeah Standard
21
A For the brakes
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Page 94
1
Q understand I'm just getting to
2
the right part here So here you see rear
3
axle And then there's the service brakes
4
A Right And the service brakes don't
5
specify manufacturer
6
Q That's right But you've already
7
testified both in the Pawlik case and today
8
that ordinarily Rockwell brakes got -- Rockwell
9
axles got Rockwell brakes right
10
MR QUIGG Form
11
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
12
THE WITNESS Based off my experience
13
generally that would be the case
14
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
15
Q right And it would be the same
16
with respect to Eaton right You have an
17
Eaton axle that's standard then ordinarily an
18
Eaton axle would get Eaton brakes correct
19
MR QUIGG Form
20
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
21
MR ADAMS Objection Form
Page 96
1
that I'm zooming in on
2
A Yes It appears to be the same No.
3
It's a little different document than what you
4
had before
OT
Q going to go down to the last
6
page because I think you'll see it is slightly
7
different
8
So here we see again on page 5 on
9
this spec sheet Kenworth Truck Company and
10
its P.O. Box 80222 in Seattle Washington
11
right
12
A see that
13
Q It lists that it's a division of
14
PACCAR right
15
A It does
16
Q And then here it says KW -- that
17
would be Kenworth -- publication 6-79 right
18
A Correct
19
Q right And so that would
20
indicate to us this was regarding 1979 where
21
Exhibit 14 when we go down to the bottom we
Page 95
1
THE WITNESS Based off of my
2
personal experience that would be the case in
3 general
45
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
45
Q And you're not aware of any
6
documentation as we sit here today that
7
Kenworth ever had for the standard equipment
8
for the K100 or the W900 an axle by one
9
manufacturer and standard brakes by a different
10
one correct
11
MR MARSHALL Form
12
MR ADAMS Objection Form
13
THE WITNESS I can't recall any
14
documentation that specifically points that out
15
as standard equipment
16
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
17
Q right We're going to go to the
18
next document to see if I can -- I think I'm
19
going to be able to do this if I share the
20
correct screen
21
Okay Can you now see the K100 here
Page 97
1
see it was regarding 1981 right
2
A That would be my assumption
3
Q Okay Now when we go up here to the
4
K100 spec sheet from '79 we see that the front
5
axle here is the Rockwell TW
6
12,000 rated capacity right
7
A Correct
8
Q Okay And with the rear axle it's
9
the Rockwell SQHD hypoid single reduction
10
tandem axle 38,000 rated capacity
11
correct
12
A Correct
13
Q And then for the service brakes it
14
lists Rockwell cam air brakes 15 inch by 4
15
inch in the front 16 1/2 by 7 inches in the
16
rear right
17
A It does
18
Q Okay And then just like in the 1981
19
spec sheet there's optional equipment We got
20
the standard equipment second page twice here
21
in this PDF
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Page 98
1
But here in the optional equipment
2
you can get the same -- you can get a Rockwell
3
axle from 12,000 up to 20,000 pounds as an
4
option on the front axle correct
5
A That's what the document says yes
6
Q right And that's different than
7
the 1981 which had as optional equipment -
8
here in Exhibit 14 you can order an optional
9
Eaton or an optional Rockwell in the front
10
correct
11
A That's correct It's different
12
Q right And then for the rear
13
axle here you've got you can order an optional
14
Rockwell or Eaton single or dual with brake
15
capacities right
16
A That's correct
17
Q And you can also get optional wedge
18
brakes if you wanted them right
19
A That's correct or Eaton brakes
20
Q Right Or the Eaton 16 1/2 by 7 inch
21
cam rear brake
1 2 3 4
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 100
Q And then the rear axle once again it's the Rockwell SQHD hypoid single reduction tandem axle 38,000 pounds correct
A Correct
Q And then for standard equipment the service brakes just like in the 1970s it
lists the Rockwell cam air brakes as the
standard equipment correct
A This document references Rockwell
brakes
Q right And that's -- the service brakes are the brakes on the drive axle is that right
A The service brakes -
Q
front
Oh no because this lists rear and
A It's all the brakes That's the
brakes -- when you push on your brake pedal that's the brakes that operate as opposed to
emergency brake
Q Right And then there's a reference
Page 99
1
A Correct
2
Q right Because standard was
3
Rockwell cam 15 4 by 16 1/2 right
4
All right So let's go to
5
Exhibit 16. We're going to do the same thing
6
as we go through this So we'll go to the end
7
And here we see Kenworth -- I know
8
you have to turn your head sideways here I'm
9
sorry about that -- Kenworth Truck Company the
10
same P.O. Box as the last one Division of
11
PACCAR and then it says 576 correct
12
A Correct
13
Q right And so as we sit here
14
today our understanding of this is this would
15
be for 1976 model's spec sheet
16
A That would be my assumption
17
Q Okay And then if we go up here in
18
the K100 the front axle again is a Rockwell
19
FF931 12,000 pounds correct Can you see
20
that I can zoom in
21
A There Yeah Correct
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 101
to FMVSS 121 specifications What's that A Federal Motor Vehicle Safety
Standard 121
Q And one of the things I noticed this is a standard that PACCAR actually was involved with litigation against the government about
Are you familiar with that MR ADAMS Form
THE WITNESS I believe I've seen
something to that effect yes
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
Q You've looked at -- at some point or another in the past you've read the PACCAR -the Pursuit of Quality book that PACCAR put out several editions of right
A believe I have yes Q right And there's a description in the Pursuit of Quality about that litigation Is that what you're referring to in terms of being familiar with it the description from the textbook -- or the book
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Page 102
1
that that PACCAR published
2
MR ADAMS Form
3
THE WITNESS I don't recall seeing
4
it there
5
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
6
Q Okay Fair enough right And
7
then --
8
A What I would say is you know
9
FMVSS 121 is where ABS was mandated on trucks
10
And it was implemented -- since the time frame
11
when I was working as a mechanic it was
12
implemented and actually was unsafe
13
NHTSA had to rescind that rule
14
because the technology they pushed -- in my
15
opinion this is Rod Curbo's opinion -- they
16
pushed that implementation too early but it
17
didn't work well
18
And they actually rescinded FMVSS
19
121 and then had to -- as I recall And then
20
redid the rule the regulation And then what
21
do you call it -- republished it -- I don't
Page 104
1
need to go down that rabbit hole any further
2
With respect to the 1976 K100 the
3
front axle we looked at before the only option
4
available for the front axle was to get a
5
different Rockwell axle correct
10
A Is that optional or --
7
Q This is optional equipment
8
A According to this spec sheet
9
Q Right Okay Yeah And if
10
customer came in and came into a dealership
11
and said I want you to make me something
12
that's off the spec sheet PACCAR would have
13
tried to accommodate that customer to sell a
14
truck right
15
A Well what I would say is we would
16
entertain the idea We did build custom
17
trucks And if it was something that could be
18
designed and built safely yeah we would
19
likely do it
20
Q Sure Okay
21
A You know if they were willing to
Page 103
Page 105
1
know what the right word is -- but this was
1
accept
2
that time frame --
2
Q Understood All right Let's go to
3
Q Let me ask you -- yeah I wasn't
3
Exhibit 17. Here we've got the K100 again
4
being critical of PACCAR for what it did
4
If we go down we see slightly
5
A And I believe what I've seen is that
6
litigation was against the government because
5
different formatting of the last page of the
6
brochure But it's Kenworth here again with
7
it wasn't working It wasn't working and it
7
the Kenworth logo and the address here in
8
wasn't safe That's my recollection
8
Seattle correct
9
Q And it added -- according to page 209
9
A Correct
10
of Exhibit 28 quote the regulation added from
10
Q And then it's copyright Kenworth
11
2,000 to 3,000 to the cost of a heavy
11
Truck Company 1974. So we don't have to
12
truck was to take effect on March 1 1975 and
12
assume what they're referring to in terms of
13
many fleet buyers rushed to make their
13
years here right
14
purchases ahead of that deadline
14
A Correct
15
So one of the issues that was
15
Q And this spec sheet from 1974 for the
16
involved there was cost too right
16
K100 lists here for the front axle the standard
17
MR ADAMS Form
17
equipment is the Rockwell model FF 921
18
THE WITNESS I have not read that
19
document I need to put that into context
18
correct
19
A Correct
20
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
20
Q And for the rear we have once
21
Q Sure Okay That's fair We don't
21
again the Rockwell SQHD This is single
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Page 106
1
speed 38,000 rated capacity correct
2
A Correct
3
Q And then it lists that it has cam
4
service brakes right --
5
A Yes
6
Q -- under axle
7
All right And it also lists
8
separately under service brakes that they're
9
air operated and it gives the size of the
10
cam correct
11
A That's correct
12
Q And then as optional equipment with
13
respect to the 1974 K100 -- sorry -- there are
14
a number of axles listed that you can get for
15
the front axle Those are all Rockwell axles
16 correct
17
A They appear to be
18
Q right And you know that from
19
your experience based on the model numbers here
20
with the FF and FE and FL designation correct
21
A That's correct
Page 108
1
Q And then with respect to the rear
2
axle Rockwell SQ100 hypoid single reduction
3
tandem axle 38,000 pounds and Rockwell Q
4
series brakes correct
5
A That's correct
6
Q And the Q series brake was an cam
7
brake correct
8
A That's correct
9
Q And then for optional equipment if
10
you wanted to order off the optional equipment
11
menu you could get a front axle from Eaton or
12
from Rockwell with a different capacity than
13
the standard Rockwell front axle correct
14
A That's right
15
Q And the same for the rear you could
16
get a single or dual drive Rockwell or Eaton
17
axle with different capacities if you wanted
18
optional equipment right
19
A That's correct
20
Q Exhibit 19 is 1979 W900 Let's
21
scroll down here Here we have the same
Page 107
1
Q And then for the rear axles just
2
like the other ones that we've looked at you
3
could get an Eaton or a Rockwell single or
45
dual axle with different capacities if you
45
wanted to order off the optional equipment
6
list right
7
A Correct
8
Q Okay Great Let's go now to spec
9
sheets for the W900 Let's start with
10
Exhibit 18 which is -- I believe we're going
11
to see it here on the last page -- here again
12
we see the Kenworth name and logo a Division
13
of PACCAR and here we have KW Publication
14
6-83 correct
15
A Correct
16
Q right And so here on this 1983
17
spec sheet we see for the W900 that the
18
standard equipment lists for the front axle
19
the Rockwell 941 12,000 axle with
20
Rockwell TW cam air brakes correct
21
A That's correct
Page 109
1
Kenworth truck format that we've seen in the
2
past And we see it's KW Publication 7-79
3
correct
4
A Correct
5
Q right And here again if we
6
look at the standard equipment and we roll
7
over to the front axle you see the front axle
8
is a Rockwell TW 12,000 pounds
9
correct
10
A Correct
11
Q And the rear axle is the Rockwell
12
SQHD hypoid single reduction tandem axle
13
38,000 pounds correct
14
A That's right
15
Q And the service brakes are Rockwell
16
cam brakes 15 by 4 in the front and 16 1/2
17
by 7 in the rear correct
18
A Correct
19
Q That's the standard equipment on the
20
'79 W900 And if you wanted to order optional
21
the front axles you could get only optional
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Page 110
1
equipment offered here on the spec sheet as a
2
Rockwell axle with a different weight capacity
3
right
4
A For the front axle
5
Q Yeah And you could get wedge brakes
6
on the front axle if you wanted to
7
A Yes
8
Q Okay And then I'll zoom ina little
9
more in the future I'm sorry And then for
10
the rear axle you could have a single or dual
11
Rockwell or Eaton with different weight
12
capacities just like the other ones that we've
13
seen correct
14
A Correct
15
Q And you could get wedge brakes for
16
the service brakes as an option also And they
17
list -- specifically you could get an Eaton
18
cam rear brake if you wanted that as an
19
option right Do you see that here
20
A That's correct According to the
21
spec sheet I do
Page 112
1
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
2
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
3
Q -- there's a separate entry for them
4
in addition to the reference where they're
5
listed in the axle
6
And here they give you the sizes of
7
the cam brakes in the front and the rear
8
correct
9
A That is correct
10
Q That's for the standard And then
11
for the optional equipment if we go down here
12
again we've got optional axles in the front
13
These are all Rockwell axles correct
14
A They appear to be yes
15
Q And again we know that because of
16
the code designation numbers that appear on the
17
left right
18
A Correct
19
Q And then for the rear axles again
20
you have options for single and dual front
21
both Rockwell and Eaton correct
Page 111
1
Q right Exhibit 20 is the W900
2
from 1975. Let's go down to the last page
3
Let's see here Kenworth and the
4
logo And then it's kind of blurry But you
5
can sort of see that it says 7-75 here
6
If we had a better copy it would be
7
more clear I think it's actually more clear
8
if we zoom out But for the standard equipment
9
here axle in the front Rockwell model
10
TW 12,000 pounds correct
11
A That's correct
12
Q right And standard equipment
13
for the rear axle is the Rockwell SQHD single
14
speed up to 38,000 rated capacity
15
correct
16
A Correct
17
Q And it comes with cam service
18
brakes correct
19
A Yes
20
Q And then with respect to the service
21
brakes --
Page 113
1
A Yes
2
Q And they list as optional service
3
brakes that you could get a 15 by 7 wedge
4
brake correct
5
A That's correct
6
Q right Exhibit 21 is the 19 --
7
no I've got the wrong -- okay Here we go
8
Sir are you aware of what the W900 12 was as
9
opposed to just the W900
10
A Personally I'm not --
11
Q right Well let's go down to
12
the end here And what we see is copyright
13
Kenworth Truck 1974. Do you see that
14
A do
15
Q And then we go back up for this
16
W900 12 front axle for standard equipment
17
Rockwell model FF 921 9,000 pounds correct
18
A Correct
19
Q And for the axle for the rear it's
20
the Rockwell SQHD And it's 38,000 pounds
21
And it lists here under axle cam service
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1
brakes correct
2
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
3
THE WITNESS Yes
4
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
5
Q And then the service brakes there's
6
a separate entry And it tells you the size
7
for the rear service brakes 16 1/2 by 7 cam
8
correct
9
A It does
10
Q right If we go to optional
11
equipment again here for the axles all the
12
front axle options are Rockwells based on the
13
model numbers correct
14
A It appears to be yes
15
Q And then the rear axles you can get
16
single or dual Rockwell or Eaton with
17
different weight ratings correct
18
A Yeah that's what it shows
19
Q And you could get an optional service
20
brake of the 15 by 7 wedge correct
21
A Yes that's what it says
Page 116
1
take a break or push through until you're done
2
MR RUCKDESCHEL Ten minutes
3
MR ADAMS Then let's push through
4
until you're done
5
MR RUCKDESCHEL I'll tell you what
6
Let's take a minute comfort break I'm
7
going to go through see if I can't cut out a
8
bunch of things because I think I can but it
9
will be more efficient if everybody stretches
10
their legs gets a cup of coffee or gets rid
11
of a cup of coffee
12
And why don't we come back at 12:50
13
so that's eight minutes from now Eastern and
14
hopefully we can finish by a couple minutes
15
after 1:00
16
MR ADAMS Perfect
17
THE VIDEOGRAPHER We're going off
18
record The time is 12:42 p.m.
19
Recess taken -- 12:42 p.m.
20
After recess -- 12:52 p.m.
21
THE VIDEOGRAPHER We're back on the
12 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 115
Q As we sit here today Mr. Curbo can PACCAR identify any model year for the W900
between 1965 and 1980 that did not have as the
standard equipment as described in the spec sheets we just looked at Rockwell front and
rear axles
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
MR ADAMS Form
THE WITNESS You know I would have
to look That's not a detail that I was
prepared for that I looked into
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
Q Okay What about for the K100 same issue you haven't looked into it so you would
have to go and do some more research A That's correct
Q right Well then we're not going to waste time on that Let me see if
can stop the share MR ADAMS Jon how much do you
think you have left just to see if we want to
Page 117
1
record The time is 12:52 p.m.
2
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
3
Q right Mr. Curbo I'm going to
4
try and finish this up in a few minutes
5
In looking at your testimony from the
6
Pawlik case in 2020 in Illinois you were
7
asked some questions about brake assemblies and
8
axles being mismatched by manufacturers And I
9
just want to put that testimony up on the
10
screen
11
We've talked about this testimony
12
before today This is your deposition in the
13
Pawlik w case And we're on
14
page 54
15
A If you don't mind if you can make
16
the screen --
17
Q Yeah sure Let me go up Here you
18
see -- hold on Let me make it bigger Cook
19
County Illinois Pawlik versus ArvinMeritor
20
MC Zoom deposition of Rodney F. Curbo that's
21
you right
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Page 118
1
A Correct
2
Q So now let's see if I can get this
3
right If we go down to page 54 of the
4
transcript you're asked a question
5
It says And I know we talked about
6
for the aftermarket perhaps a Rockwell
7
assembly could be installed with an Eaton brake
8
and vice versa but did PACCAR sell any trucks
9
with a mismatched foundation brake to the
10
axle
11
The answer is Yes that's what I
12
was referring to I wasn't referring to the
13
aftermarket I was referring to we built
14
trucks with Eaton axles on Rockwell Eaton
15
brakes on Rockwell axles and Rockwell brakes
16
on Eaton axles That was an available
17
combination to order
18
The question then is That makes
19
sense
20
And the answer continues It wasn't
21
common but it was
Page 120
1
Did I read that correctly
2
A You
3
Q Okay And that testimony is
4
consistent with the testimony you've given us
5
today fair
6
MR ADAMS Objection Form
7
THE WITNESS I would say I don't
8
know how many times I've seen it but I have
9
seen it
10
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
11
Q Okay And one of the things you were
12
then asked about is in the early 80s whether
13
axles that came to PACCAR's manufacturing
14
facilities came dressed or trimmed
15
And what that means is whether they
16
had the brake assembly already attached to them
17
or not right
18
A That's correct
19
Q And correct that prior to your
20
arrival at Peterbilt in -- what year was it
21
'83
Page 119
Page 121
1
And then the next question begins
2
Go ahead You said it wasn't common Are you
3
able to tell me how many times you've seen a
4
mismatch between the axle manufacturer and the
5
brake manufacturer for new trucks that PACCAR
6
was building and selling
7
Answer No. Only that I've seen
8
it
1
A 1983
2
Q Prior to your arrival at Peterbilt in
3
1983 you Rod Curbo have no personal
4
knowledge about how axles may have arrived at
5
any Kenworth manufacturing facility
6
A I would say only that I -- you know
7
I've looked at final chassis bill of materials
8
which are the book of record for what and how
9
Question Do you know if it's just
10
the one time or less than five more than
9
we built trucks
10
And I've seen -- I believe I've seen
11
five Are you able to tell me in any way
12
Answer No I don't recall the
11
trucks older than 1983 that had trimmed axles
12
And I know I've seen them have untrimmed axles
13
number at all
14
Question Okay
"
15
Answer More than --
16
Question Now again -- sorry go
17
ahead sir
18
Answer More than once
19
Question Would it be more than
20
five
21
" don't know
13
I believe I've seen both configurations
14
Q right We don't have any of
15
those documents here correct
16
A No do not
17
Q And again my question was you
18
don't have any personal knowledge of that
19
And by that I mean you did not
20
witness any axles arriving to a Kenworth
21
facility prior to 1983 in order to be able
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Page 122
1
to -- you Rod Curbo -- say I have personal
2
knowledge that some of the axles came in
3
trimmed and some came in untrimmed
4
MR ADAMS Objection Form
5
THE WITNESS I did not witness axles
6
coming into Kenworth manufacturing facility
7
prior to 1983
8
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
9
Q And you don't have any documentation
10
as you sit here today as the PACCAR designee
11
that prior to 1978 Kenworth was purchasing
12
untrimmed axles from Rockwell correct
13
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
14
THE WITNESS I don't -- I do not
15
have any documentation showing that with me
16
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
17
Q And we can agree that if an axle
18
arrived trimmed from either Eaton or Rockwell
19
it would have that manufacturer's brake
20
assembly on it
21
A I would suspect that any axle that
Page 124
1
the April 28th 2009 deposition of Mr. Bean
2
Larry Bean from the Martin case
3
This was a case where Mr. Bean was
4
offered as the corporate designee of PACCAR
5
correct
6
A I believe that's accurate
7
Q right And in that deposition
8
Mr. Bean testifies On page 72 he's asked a
9
question
10
Okay Earlier you told me that
11
Peterbilt and Kenworth purchased axles from
12
Eaton and Rockwell Can you give me a time
13
reference for when Kenworth and Peterbilt
14
purchased axles from Eaton and Rockwell
15
And the answer is I believe back to
16
the probably beginning days of Kenworth and
17
Peterbilt and their involvement of the time
18
that we've owned them that we have purchased
19
axles from Eaton and Rockwell
20
Question Is that still the case
21
Answer Yes
Page 123
1
came from that manufacturer would have its own
2
brakes on it if it were a trimmed axle
3
Q right And in fact in the
4
Pawlik case on page 56 you said in response
5
to one of the questions quote obviously if
6
it was coming in dressed from Rockwell it
7
wouldn't have Eaton brakes on it
8
You still stand by that testimony
9
right
10
A I believe that's an accurate
11
statement At least I think so
12
Q Great Now at some point in the
13
past we discussed you had reviewed the
14
deposition testimony of -- from 1993 of
15
Mr. Degenstein correct
16
A Yeah like I said many years ago I
17
remember that I read through that
18
Q right And in Mr. Degenstein's
19
deposition in nineteen -- well let's start
20
actually with something else
21
So let's go to Exhibit 9 which is
Page 125
1
Question Did the axles come fully
2
assembled
3
Answer Yes
4
Question From both Eaton and
5
Rockwell
6
Answer Yes
7
Question Can you describe for me
8
what a fully assembled axle -- what the
9
components of a fully assembled axle are
10
And the answer is Sure The axle
11
would include the housing as well as the
12
differential as well as the axle shaft And
13
then out on the end of the axle assembly would
14
be the axle and equipment which would include
15
your brake chamber would be your mounting
16
plate through your brake hardware You have
17
your cam mechanism You'd have your shoes
18
And then eventually you'd have your drums
19
Did I read that correct
20
A You did
21
Q Do you agree with his description of
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1
what a fully assembled axle would have on it
2
MR ADAMS Objection Form
3
THE WITNESS Yeah I would need to
4
reada little bit more of his deposition to put
5
that in context
6
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
7
Q Okay I'm just asking you about the
8
description right here on the screen Can you
9
tell me what components are on a fully
10
assembled axle
11
Do you agree that he has described
12
accurately the components of a fully assembled
13
axle which would include the axle the
14
differential the shaft and then the brake
15
assembly and hardware including the shoes
16
A Yeah The thing I'm unclear on is he
17
talking about an assembled axle as it comes
18
into the factory or as it leaves It's a
19
little unclear
20
Q So the question immediately above is
21
Did the axles come fully assembled
Page 128
1
of materials there's plenty of them that
2
indicated that those axles did not come in
3
fully dressed as you're speaking of
4
Q Okay
5
A Mr. Bean may have beena little
6
mistaken or may have misunderstood the
7
question
8
Q right Are you aware of PACCAR
9
ever issuing an errata sheet or a correction or
10
otherwise recanting the testimony of Mr. Bean
11
here as PACCAR's designee
12
MR ADAMS Form
13
THE WITNESS I don't know
14
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
15
Q Okay I just asked whether you're
16
aware of it
17
Let's go to Exhibit 10. This is the
18
testimony of -- you'll see it's the PMK person
19
most knowledgeable deposition of Lawrence
20
Bean from June 25th 2009 in the Gobel case
21
G
Page 127
1
Do you see that
2
A do
3
Q And then he's asked Can you
4
describe for me what the components of a fully
5
assembled axle are correct
6
A see that
7
MR ADAMS Objection Form
8
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
9
Q right And so if we're talking
10
about -- I think we've used the term earlier
11
today a dressed axle Does he describe here
12
in the description of a fully assembled axle
13
what you would say are the components of a
14
dressed axle
15
MR ADAMS Objection Form
16
THE WITNESS He described what I
17
would call a dressed -- a dressed axle
18
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
19
Q Okay Great
20
A I would tell you that I have not
21
seen - prior to 1983 the final chassis bill
Page 129
1
Do you see that
2
A do
3
Q And again this is another
4
deposition where Mr. Bean was offered as the
5
corporate designee of PACCAR like you are
6
today right
7
A I believe that's the case
8
Q right Let's go down to -- let
9
me find the specific testimony that I was
10
referring to or going to refer to Apologies
11
I had the wrong page written down in my notes
12
Okay Now here on page 110 of the
13
deposition of Mr. Bean as PACCAR's corporate
14
representative there's a question
15
You would give the customer options
16
as to that as to the brakes they could choose
17
correct
18
And the witness says Not
19
necessarily
20
And the question So you "
21
And then the answer continues
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Page 130
1
Again it's up to the axle manufacturer to
2
provide the lining to us or provide the lining
3
to the axle that the axle assembly would then
4
come to us
5
Question And you would provide that
6
information to your customers for them to make
7
a choice as to what they wanted correct
8
The witness answers We would give
9
them options in terms of what axles were
10
available and work with those customers to
11
define exactly what they want
12
Question Those axles would have
13
brake assemblies on them correct
14
Answer The axles would come with
15
brake assemblies preinstalled
16
Did I read that correctly
17
A You did
18
Q Are you aware of PACCAR ever
19
correcting or recanting the testimony of
20
Mr. Bean in that regard with respect to the
21
axles coming with the brakes preinstalled
Page 132
1
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
2
MR ADAMS Objection Form
3
THE WITNESS I would have to look
4
I would have to do some research to determine
5
The easiest way to determine that is if we have
6
a VIN we can go look it up
7
And that's really the only way that
8
we have with the documentation that we have
9
existing is to look in the final chassis bill
10
of materials and determine what was ordered
11
what were the part numbers that were called
12
out If it was a trimmed axle that was called
13
out you can clearly see that in the final
14
chassis bill of material
15
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
16
Q not asking about any particular
17
truck sir
18
My question is if a customer came to
19
a Kenworth dealer and wanted -- or a Kenworth
20
dealer contacted Kenworth because they wanted
21
to have some trucks on the lot and they said
Page 131
1
MR ADAMS Objection Form
2
THE WITNESS Well again I would
3
need to read the deposition and put it in
4
context
5
If he was talking specifically about
6
trimmed axles I think I just said I would
7
expect if a Rockwell was to come in trimmed it
8
would have Rockwell brakes If it was to come
9
in trimmed from Eaton it would have Eaton
10
brakes
11
If that was the context of what he
12
was speaking about then what he said is
13
accurate
14
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
15
Q With respect to trucks being
16
constructed with the standard equipment as
17
designed as specified on the spec sheet in
18
the 1965 to 1980 time frame did Kenworth order
19
trimmed axles from Rockwell for those trucks
20
And let's just keep it to the K100
21
and the W900
Page 133
1
send me five K100s with the standard equipment
2
I don't want any of the options just send me
3
five K100s with the standard equipment that's
4
something a dealer could have done in 1974
5
correct
6
A That's correct
7
Q right And when that truck
8
arrived or those trucks arrived at the dealer
9
they would be fully operational trucks that
10
were ready to be sold licensed and put on the
11
road you didn't have to order any optional
12
equipment in order to have an operating legal
13
truck correct
14
MR ADAMS Form
15
THE WITNESS If they ordered a
16
tractor
17
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
18
QYeah QYeah
19
A And a tractor be something that
20
was -- if it was a complete vehicle -- we built
21
both complete and incomplete vehicles
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Page 134
1
An incomplete vehicle it's a truck
2
right -- we call trucks to get -- to delve into
3
the details generally we call -- tractors are
4
things that have a fifth wheel on them and pull
5
a trailer Those are typically complete
6
vehicles as they're built
7
Q appreciate that explanation Let
8
me rephrase my question
9
A Okay
10
Q dealer in 1974 through whatever
11
the mechanism was ordered five K100 K100 tractors
12
from Kenworth so they would have five tractors
13
on the lot that they could sell to somebody
14
and they said to Kenworth I just want the
15
standard equipment I don't want any optional
16
equipment the tractors that they received
17
pursuant to that order for five K100s with the
18
standard equipment would be operational ready
19
to be licensed and put on the road
20
A That would be my expectation
21
Q right Great Now with respect
Page 136
1
only document we have that would tell us that
2
is the final chassis bill of material for all
3
of these trucks
4
MR RUCKDESCHEL All right
5
Mr. Curbo I have some issues with the
6
objections that were raised by PACCAR to our
7
notice but those are not issues that you or I
8
are going to hack out here So I am done
9
Anybody else have questions for
10
Mr. Curbo before we go off the record
11
MR ADAMS I'm going to have some
12
but if any of the other parties have them they
13
can go first
14
MR RUCKDESCHEL Who's speaking
15
MR ADAMS Adams This is counsel
16
for PACCAR
17
MR RUCKDESCHEL I'm sorry Chip
18
okay
19
MR ADAMS Yeah So if anybody else
20
has got anything they can go first and I'll
21
come up on the back end
Page 135
1
to an order coming in to Kenworth for a K100
2
with standard equipment in 1974 would Kenworth
3
order from Rockwell a dressed axle
4
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
5
THE WITNESS I can't tell you that
6
My understanding is over time the dressed
7
versus undressed axle was really based on two
8 things
9
One was some cost Was it less --
10
was it more efficient for us to install the
11
brakes or for the axle supplier to install the
12
brakes or it was some sort of specialized
13
brake
14
And so over time those numbers
15
specifically changed And so there were times
16
when we had trimmed axles times when we didn't
17
have trimmed axles
18
I can't tell you in 1974 without
19
looking at specific trucks whether those axles
20
came in trimmed or untrimmed
21
That's the only way -- that's the
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 137
MR MARSHALL Yeah This is Barret
Marshall for Meritor I've got some questions Chip Do you want me to go first
MR ADAMS Go ahead THE VIDEOGRAPHER Can you take down the exhibit MR RUCKDESCHEL Yeah Thanks for the reminder
MR MARSHALL Before I get started for housekeeping purposes is the last exhibit
that was used Exhibit 29 Do have that
right
MR RUCKDESCHEL No. MR MARSHALL I'm sorry What was it MR RUCKDESCHEL The last exhibit that was referenced -MR MARSHALL I'm sorry not
referenced but just the last exhibit --
MR RUCKDESCHEL Yeah The next marked exhibit will be Exhibit 30
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Page 138
1
MR MARSHALL Very good Okay All
2 right
3
EXAMINATION
4
BY MR MARSHALL
5
Q Bear with me for a second I'm going
10
to try to share my screen also
7
Okay If I've done this correctly I
8
should be sharing a deposition transcript in
9
the Felicitas Salas case Is that what's
10
showing up on your screen Mr. Curbo
11
A Yes it is
12
Q Okay Is that a case that you
13
remember testifying in
14
A recall the case
15
Q It was back in 2014 if it jogs your
16
a recollection little bit
17
A recall the case
18
Q Okay Very good
19
A At least the case name I don't
20
recall the specifics of the case
21
Q Right Right Fair enough I don't
Page 140
1
after the questions or not
2
MR MARSHALL Well I'll tell you
3
what I don't know that everything is going to
4
raise that objection --
5
MR RUCKDESCHEL That's fine Go
6
ahead
7
BY MR MARSHALL
8
Q Okay So Mr. Curbo in the Salas
9
case you were asked Are you familiar with
10
Bendix being a supplier of brake products to
11
PACCAR divisions And I'm opening that up to
12
Dart Dart Peterbilt and Kenworth
13
And your answer was Bendix was a
14
supplier to PACCAR Correct
15
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
16
Personal knowledge
17
THE WITNESS That was my answer
18
BY MR MARSHALL
19
Q Okay Well first of all do you
20
have personal knowledge from your time at
21
PACCAR that Bendix was a supplier of brake
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 139
want to test your memory too much
MR RUCKDESCHEL Counsel so that I'm not jumping in after every question can we agree that with respect to the witness's personal knowledge we've got a standing objection so that I don't have to after every question make the same objection
MR MARSHALL So -MR RUCKDESCHEL I don't want to
break up your transcript but I also have objections to this witness testifying to things that he doesn't have personal knowledge of when he is not testifying against the interest of
PACCAR
So you know we can fight that out later Under the standing order here in Baltimore because this is being videotaped I can only object and just say objection
But I would rather not have stuff
that we have to cut out later if we're editing
the video But it's up to you I can say it
Page 141
1
components to Kenworth
2
A Yes
3
Q Okay And do you have personal
4
knowledge that Bendix was a supplier of brake
5
products to Kenworth prior to your time
6
actually being an employee of PACCAR because of
7
documents that you've reviewed in conjunction
8
with your role as serving as the corporate
9
representative of PACCAR
10
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
11
Misstates what personal knowledge is
12
THE WITNESS Yeah I believe that
13
there's documents that indicate that Bendix was
14
a supplier of brake components
15
BY MR MARSHALL
16
Q Okay Perfect Okay I'm going to
17
try to share another document real quick
18
Okay The document that I should be
19
sharing now is actually a Kenworth document
20
You can't really see the Bates number on the
21
first page but it was produced in this case
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Page 142
1
You see the watermark Morris v
2
PACCAR produced And then it gives the dates
3
Sometime in July of -- well 2024 it looks
4
like with the Bates number PACCAR 001918
5 correct
6
A see that
7
Q And is it fair to say you've reviewed
8
the documents that PACCAR produced in this
9
actual case the Morris case
10
A Yes I have
11
Q Okay And you understand it's fair
12
for me to say that in the Morris case PACCAR
13
produced sets of brochures or spec sheets
14
however you want to phrase the term of art as
15
to what they're called and this is one of
16
those sheets right starting with the K100
17
series
18
A We produced brochures and spec sheets
19
that we found within our possession
20
Q Okay And one thing that I noticed
21
just as an aside correct me if I'm wrong the
Page 144
1
And what I've highlighted are the
2
spec sheets for the rear axle and service
3
brakes Okay
4
A You'll need to blow it up for me to
5
be able to see it
6
Q Fair enough Thank you for that
7
MR RUCKDESCHEL Counsel can you
8
show him what the end of this document is
9
MR MARSHALL You know what I have
10
it ended here so I don't know that it runs all
11
the way through So I'm not sure
12
MR RUCKDESCHEL All right Fair
13
enough
14
MR MARSHALL Yeah Sorry about
15
that
16
BY MR MARSHALL
17
Q Are you able to see the highlighted
18
portion now Mr. Curbo
19
A can
20
Q Okay Very good Okay So this
21
spec sheet for this Kenworth truck it lists as
Page 143
1
spec sheets that Mr. Ruckdeschel the
2
plaintiffs attorney was going over with you
3
those didn't have the PACCAR Bates numbering or
4
the Morris v PACCAR you know produced on
5
7/5/2024 to indicate that they were actually
6
produced in the case is that correct
7
A That's correct
8
Q right Is it fair for me to say
9
that documents produced by PACCAR in this case
10
with PACCAR Bates numbering 1 through 2248 and
11
a Morris v PACCAR watermark are authentic
12
corporate records kept in the ordinary course
13
of business
14
MR RUCKDESCHEL Compound
15
THE WITNESS Yes
16
BY MR MARSHALL
17
Q right And what I really wanted
18
to ask you about on this document sir is at
19
Bates number 1932. I've highlighted standard
20
equipment for a Kenworth truck that was
21
historically produced
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 fi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Page 145
standard equipment for the rear axle a Timkin SQHD hypoid drive forged steel housing aluminum hubs CentriFuse drums RSA rubber block suspension correct
A Correct
Q Okay So Timkin was one brand of axles that Kenworth ordered right
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
THE WITNESS Yes BY MR MARSHALL
Q Okay And next right below the rear axle specifications it specifies service brakes Westinghouse air brakes 12 cubic foot you know dot dot dot And then it skips down to the specified sizes for those air brakes 16 1/2 by 5 or 16 1/2 by 7 correct
A Yes it does Q Okay And Westinghouse in addition to Bendix in addition to Rockwell in addition to Eaton was a supplier of brakes for Kenworth trucks historically right
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Page 146
1
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
2
THE WITNESS At certain points in
3
time I believe that that's accurate
4
BY MR MARSHALL
5
Q Okay Fair enough And this is a
6
situation -- if you're just talking about
7
trimmed versus trimmed or dressed versus
8
undressed axles because the standard axles and
9
brakes come from different companies it
10
necessarily establishes that Kenworth ordered
11
undressed axles for its trucks at various
12
points in time right
13
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
14
THE WITNESS I would have no reason
15
to believe that in this situation that the
16
axles would come in undressed
17
BY MR MARSHALL
18
Q Do you mean dressed because they're
19
different companies
20
A No. I mean undressed The axle
21
would come in without the brakes in this
Page 148
1
BY MR MARSHALL
2
Q Fair enough
3
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
4
BY MR MARSHALL
5
Q Because Timkin is a different company
6
than Westinghouse to your knowledge --
7
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
8
BY MR MARSHALL
9
Q -- correct
10
A That's my understanding
11
Q Right Okay And then separately
12
for you know this truck standard equipment
13
the Kenworth plant would also get separate
14
brake assemblies from Westinghouse that they
15
then through the course of building the truck
16
out completely installed on the axle with the
17
wheels and everything else right
18
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
19
THE WITNESS Based on my
20
interpretation of this document that's exactly
21
what would happen
Page 147
1
particular situation
2
Q Okay Let me ask it again --
3
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
4
BY MR MARSHALL
5
Q -- because I think we might have
6
crossed wires there right
7
I think you said you would have no
8
reason to believe that the axles would come in
9 undressed
10
My definition of undressed is when
11
the axle comes in without the brake assembly
12
right
13
A Correct
14
Q Correct So in this situation
15
Kenworth would be ordering an undressed axle
16
from Timkin correct
17
A That's correct
18
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
19
THE WITNESS That's what I would --
20
I'm pretty certain you know 99.9 percent
21
certain that that would be the case
Page 149
1
BY MR MARSHALL
2
Q Okay Great And this 16 1/2 by 7
3
brake assembly that we see here that's the
4
standard size of the cam brakes right that
5
were on some of the spec sheets that
6
Mr. Ruckdeschel the plaintiffs attorney went
7
over with you also nothing really special
8
about that right
9
A That's correct
10
Q Okay
11
A That's pretty standard brake size
12
Q Right And you mentioned a few times
13
that you can't testify as to whether or not an
14
axle that was going to be put a on particular
15
truck came to the plant dressed versus
16
undressed or if it had a combination of
17
standard and optional equipment on it or
18
anything like that unless you look at the build
19
sheet correct
20
MR RUCKDESCHEL Mischaracterizes
21
And objection
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Page 150
1
THE WITNESS Yeah I think what I
2
was saying -- I mean Peterbilt and Kenworth
3
both built custom trucks And you know
4
oftentimes people say no truck is -- you know
5
no truck is the same
6
But I don't think you can go that way
7
100 percent of the time But trucks -- one
8
truck versus another truck one customer versus
9
another truck -- another customer's truck
10
there almost always are differences
11
And so really the only way to tell
12
if -- it's very -- I guess what I would say is
13
it's very difficult to generalize There are
14
trucks that are built with standard axles and
15
standard brakes but there are an awful lot of
16
trucks that are built with optional axles and
17
optional brakes as well
18
So really the only way to tell when a
19
given truck is manufactured how it was built
20
how it was assembled is to look at the final
21
chassis bill of material
Page 152
1
a given truck
2
BY MR MARSHALL
3
Q Okay Very good And in fact I
4
believe that PACCAR produced a final chassis
5
bill of material build sheet that they located
6
for a vehicle for a Kenworth truck sold to
7
Mr. Morris correct
8
A Well what I would say is it was a
9
vehicle that was ordered with the customer
10
name Alan Morris
11
Q Fair enough
12
A I can't tell you if it was sold to
13
him But the dealer ordered it for an Alan
14
Morris And we did produce a final chassis
15
bill of material
16
Q Okay All right And that final
17
chassis bill of material like you said it
18
would list out the exact front and rear axle
19
and brake combination that was actually on that
20
truck right
21
A That is correct
Page 151
1
BY MR MARSHALL
2
Q Okay And explain in your own words
3
what that final bill of chassis material the
4
build sheets as I like to call them what it
5
is What does it list out
6
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection Overly
7 broad
8
THE WITNESS The final chassis bill
9
of material is a listing of every part and the
10
quantity of that part that are used to build a
11
given truck
12
It's organized by bill of material
13
So it's grouped - those parts are grouped by
14
bill of material They're typically about --
15
I'm going to say on average somewhere between
16
40 and 60 pages long
17
Over time trucks a are little bit
18
more complex The newer trucks and stuff are
19
70 to 80 pages long It's a listing -- I guess
20
the bottom line is it's a listing of every
21
single part that was purchased and installed on
Page 153
1
Q Okay And do you recall the
2
manufacturer of the axles and the brake
3
assemblies that were listed in that build
4
sheet that one build sheet that was produced
5
A Yes I believe they were Eaton axles
6
and Eaton brakes
7
Q Okay Fair enough And in this
8
case have you seen any final chassis bill of
9
material or other document that shows that
10
Mr. Morris drove any Kenworth truck that
11
actually had Rockwell brake assemblies on them
12
A Not to this point
13
Q Okay When Mr. Ruckdeschel
14
plaintiffs attorney was showing you the
15
brochures or spec sheets that he asked you
16
questions about they had you know various
17
dates They came from various points in time
18
right
19
A Yes they appeared to
20
Q Okay And what he showed you -- you
21
know what was on those spec sheets or
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Page 154
1
brochures were the publication dates of those
2
spec sheets right
3
A Yeah I was about to say I believe
4
that those dates were -- my understanding
5
based on other brochures and spec sheets
6
similar to those that I've seen is that those
7
dates would be the publication date
8
Q Okay Fair enough Does a
9
publication date correspond in any particular
10
way to an actual model year of truck Does it
11
lag behind or is it ahead How does it work
12
like that
13
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
14
THE WITNESS I guess what I would
15
say is going from memory from just a few
16
minutes ago but it appeared in general those
17
publication dates were like in midyear of
18
each year
19
And we had various over time model
20
year changeovers change in time but I guess
21
to explain a truck that was built in
Page 156
1
Q understand I understand And
2
that's what I was getting at
3
So essentially if Mr. Mulhausen
4
testified that Mr. Morris purchased three
5
Kenworth trucks model years 1968 1974 and
6
1978 there's no way for you as you sit here
7
today to actually match up any of the spec
8
sheets that Mr. Ruckdeschel went over with you
9
to being applicable to those trucks that
10
Mr. Mulhausen said Mr. Morris purchased is
11
that fair
12
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection Go
13
ahead
14
THE WITNESS Yeah I think what I
15
would say is those spec sheets wouldn't match
16
up to any given truck I would say that's a
17
document that a customer would look at and say
18
in general this is I what can get
19
The order process is that when
20
somebody wants to order a truck they sit down
21
with the salesperson from that dealership and
Page 155
1
nineteen -- let's say a truck that was a 1980
2
truck could be built anytime between like --
3
it can be built prior to January 1st 1980 up
4
through whatever the next model year changeover
5
date is And those change over time
6
Back in the time frame that we're
7
talking about 1980 and prior those are
8
generally like September time frame what you
9
would expect
10
So thinking about -- I think one of
11
the publications was 6 of '74 My guess is
12
that's going to be referring to trucks that are
13
'75 model year because they're looking ahead
14
to building those And so by midyear they're
15
probably taking orders for trucks that are
16
going to be -- by midyear '74 they're likely
17
taking orders for trucks that are going to be
18
built as model year '75 trucks
19
BY MR MARSHALL
20
Q Okay So is it --
21
A It's complicated
Page 157
1
factoring that time frame they had what we
2
call price books
3
Anda price book is about an inch
4
inch and a half thick And it lists every
--
published option that was available
6
And they would -- they would go
7
through and say okay what frame do you want
8
Here is all the frames What clutch What
9
interior What transmission What engine
10
What axles do you want What brakes do you
11
want
12
And it would list all those options
13
out along with the standard Typically the
14
price book it had various options And the
15
standard list with what the cost differential
16
and the weight differential would be because
17
those are two things that customers are
18
typically concerned with is cost and weight of
19
their trucks
20
MR RUCKDESCHEL Move to strike
21
entire response as speculation
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Page 158
Page 160
1
BY MR MARSHALL
1
outside customer --
2
Q appreciate your response
2
Q right Great That's it
3
Mr. Curbo I think it makes perfect sense
3
A if were a stock truck -- what
4
Did you have an opportunity to review
4
we call a stock truck which is the truck that
5
the deposition testimony in this case from
5
a dealer stocks on their lot
6
Mrs. Morris and Mr. Mulhausen Mr. Curbo
6
MR RUCKDESCHEL Super I
7
A Yes I did
7
appreciate your explanation Thank you
8
Q Okay And in reading through that
8
MR ADAMS Anybody else
9
do you agree that both Mrs. Morris and
9
MR RUCKDESCHEL You're up
10
Mr. Mulhausen identified Mr. Morris using
10
EXAMINATION
11
Bendix brakes as replacement brakes
11
BY MR ADAMS
12
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection
12
Q right Mr. Curbo as you know
13
Go ahead
13
my name is Chip Adams and I represent PACCAR
14
THE WITNESS What I will tell you is
14
in this matter
15
I recall Mr. Mulhausen mentioning Bendix
15
I'm just going to have a few
16
brakes I don't recall whether Mrs. Morris
16
questions I want to start offjust kind of
17
said that or not She may have I just don't
18
recall
17
talking a little bit about your background
18
And I would like you to tell the
19
MR MARSHALL Okay Fair enough
19
jury -- I don't want to go all the way back to
20
Okay Mr. Curbo that's all I've got for you
20
high school
21
I greatly appreciate your time today sir
21
Once you got out of high school when
Page 159
1
FURTHER EXAMINATION
2
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
3
Q Mr. Curbo I have a follow
4
question with respect to the questions that
5
Meritor's counsel just asked you
6
You gave a long response about what
7
might have happened at a dealership if a
8
customer went -- if a customer went in to order
9
a truck that I objected to as being
10
speculation
11
Do you recall that answer that I
12
objected to
13
A do
14
Q customer went in and was buying
15
a truck that was already on the lot that
16
process you described wouldn't occur correct
17
A That process would have occurred by
18
the dealer salesperson who ordered that truck
19
Q But the customer would not have been
20
involved in that process
21
A Just without the input from an
Page 161
1
you started working and going to school can
2
you walk me just briefly through your education
3
and work history please
4
A Sure When I was out of high school
5
I went to technical school and obtained a
6
certificate to be a diesel technician I
7
worked for several years as a truck mechanic
8
Decided I would go back and get my
9
engineering degree Got my engineering degree
10
My first job out of college was working at
11
Peterbilt as an engineer
12
Q Let's stop a little bit because you
13
said you worked as a truck mechanic while you
14
were in college or before college
15
A Before and during
16
Q Walk us through what you did as a
17
truck mechanic Let's start with that Prior
18
to graduating from college
19
A In general I worked at three or four
20
different shops over time I worked at an
21
international distributor or dealership for a
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Page 162
1
short time I worked for a Detroit Diesel
2
distributor I worked -- I did quite a bit of
3
engine work but also other work including
4
brake work for a company called Equipment
5
Service Company which is like I said a
6
Detroit Diesel distributor
7
And then I went to work for
8
New Mexico Peterbilt And worked there part
9
time and worked part time while I was going to
10
school
11
Q And were you working part time to
12
help pay for your school
13
A Yes
14
Q And you said you worked with brakes
15
What other kind of things did you work on on
16
these trucks when you were a mechanic
17
A Gosh I would say engine work was
18
mostly done at the Detroit distributor Other
19
than that it wasn't much engine work
20
I did you know all different kinds
21
of maintenance I did a lot of electrical A
Page 164
1
you said you graduated as an engineer Tell me
2
about your -- just kind of a 10,000 view
3
of what you did after college leading up to
4
where you are today
5
A I started out as what they call a
6
liaison engineer which is a liaison between
7
the plant engineering and our division
8
engineering
9
I was at the Denton Texas plant
10
And the division engineering was in California
11
Over time I moved into a special project It
12
was associated with what we call the model 320
13
It was the successor to the Kenworth L700
14
Ultimately -- also for a while I
15
was a group leader over doing the customized
16
design And somebody would -- if there was
17
something that was asked for that hadn't been
18
designed for and we said yes we can do that
19
our group would do that and we did
20
We weren't specialized in any area of
21
the truck We did designs from the front to
Page 163
1
lot of HVAC that the Peterbilt used By HVAC
2
I mean air conditioning
3
Also like I said I did brakes And
4
myself and another guy who was a -- he was a
5
body guy with his background He came to work
6
there I trained him to be a mechanic on the
7
mechanic stuff he trained me on the body
8
stuff and we rebuilt trucks
9
Q What kind of brake work did you do
10
when you were doing this mechanic work the
11
different types of things
12
A The same kind of things that a lot of
13
mechanics in this type of litigation talk
14
about replacing brakes You know the other
15
thing is it's not always replacing the brakes
16
because they were out Sometimes there's a
17
wheel seal that leaks gets oil all over
18
replacing cleaning up -- maybe just cleaning
19
up depending on the shape of the brakes but
20
that -- essentially that's what we would do
21
Q right And then after college
Page 165
1
the back of the truck Then I went into the
2
electrical area I was group lead for
3
electrical I became engineering manager had
4
responsibility for electrical electronics
5
instrumentation HVAC and air brake systems
6
And then moved out of that for a
7
short time did a special project where we were
8
supporting relocating the production of a truck
9
from one plant to the other And then bid on
10
the position to become product safety
11
compliance manager
12
Q Tell me what was involved being
13
product safety compliance manager
14
A had responsibility for reviewing
15
all the designs and making sure that they met
16
all of the -- it wasn't just reviewing -- we
17
were kind of auditing but also working with
18
our engineers to ensure that they were aware of
19
the regulatory requirements And so ensuring
20
that those designs met the regulatory
21
requirements and that they were safe designs
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Page 166
Page 168
1
We had responsibility for conducting
2
investigations If there was an alleged defect
3
on a truck and if that defect wound up being
4
true and whether -- I was the chair of the
5
safety committee We would take the
6
information to the safety committee to
7
determine whether or not it was a safety
8 defect
9
And if it was we would then manage
10
the recall process We also provided support
11
to law enforcement We would get phone calls
12
about helping them when there were stolen
13
trucks and the like
14
We also provided litigation support
15
So this type of support that related to
16
everything from lemon law cases to accidents
17
to fires and ultimately got involved in this
18
type of asbestos litigation
19
Q Okay I want to ask you just about a
20
few different topics that counsel in his
21
examination discussed just to get some
1
and move to strike the response It's beyond
2
the personal knowledge of the witness and
3
violating the best evidence rule
4
BY MR ADAMS
5
Q What kind of testing was this that
6
you're talking about
7
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
8
THE WITNESS Based off the
9
documents it was air sampling testing where
10
they were looking for asbestos
11
BY MR ADAMS
12
Q Where were they sampling air
13
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
14
THE WITNESS They did sampling on
15
mechanics at a dealership They did some in
16
offices They did some in our plants around
17
where they installed brakes Those are the
18
ones I recall offhand
19
BY MR ADAMS
20
Q And when they were doing the
21
sampling -- mechanics when they were doing
Page 167
1 clarity
2
The first thing is he asked you a
3
few questions about a Mr. Bissonnette Do you
4
recall that
5
A Yes
6
Q Can you tell me who that is
7
A Dave Bissonnette was an industrial
8
hygienist that PACCAR had hired in 1974. What
9
we know about Mr. Bissonnette is we found
10
documents where he did -- what we know about
11
Mr. Bissonnette is related to this type of
12
litigation
13
We found documentation where he did
14
air sampling over about a ten- to year
15
period in different various locations
16
I believe the earliest that we have
17
is 1976. And there's other reports All of
18
the testing that we've seen that was done it
19
was done by outside contractors if you will
20
But he was having --
21
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection to the --
Page 169
1
works on brakes or whatever else can you tell
2
me what you've seen in the documents that they
3
found
4
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
5
THE WITNESS What I would say is in
6
the documents what it indicates is that there
7
was -- they found that there was no health
8
hazard
9
They found -- a lot of the times they
10
found no asbestos whatsoever I'm just doing
11
all of them together because -- and then they
12
did find some where they found some fibers but
13
the fiber count was so low that the contractor
14
consultant that they had doing it at least one
15
of the reports said that the fiber count is so
16
low it doesn't matter what kind of fibers it
17
is It's well below the limit
18
MR RUCKDESCHEL Move to strike for
19
hearsay Violation of best evidence Lack of
20
personal knowledge
21
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Page 170
1
BY MR ADAMS
2
Q So based on your review of these
3
documents all the way back in the 70s PACCAR
4
had brought people in to confirm whether it was
5
safe to work with their products and the
6
conclusions that you've seen indicated that it
7
was safe
8
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
9
THE WITNESS Yeah what I would say
10
is what we know is in '74 they hired an
11
industrial hygienist By '76 which is the
12
first air sampling test that we have we know
13
that he was doing some air sampling looking
14
for asbestos and he continued to do that over
15
time
16
The other thing I would point out is
17
he did a presentation The kind of
18
presentation he had done where he had talked
19
about a three process that was what I
20
would say was typical or what you would
21
expect out of an industrial hygienist
Page 172
1
when you get down into the details it's not
2
Can you explain what you meant by
3
that
4
A Yeah I mean I think I went through
5
kind of the order process But the other thing
6
is you know when you go in and buy a car you
7
get three to five different option packages if
8
you will
9
That's not what you do with a truck
10
A truck is -- it's really a tool And the
11
people who buy that tool are sophisticated
12
customers They know what they need They're
13
buying it not just to drive around for pleasure
14
or take a trip in they're driving it in order
15
to do a specific job to do work and to make
16
money
17
And so in general just from the
18
onset the purpose of ordering that vehicle is
19
totally different And so what happens is
20
those customers will come in and they will
21
specialize their truck to fit their particular
Page 171
1
And that was determine you know if
2
there was a suspected hazard Then you
3
should -- then you should investigate and
4
determine whether or not it's truly a hazard
5
And then if there is a hazard then put
6
controls in place
7
And what we see over time is we see
8
him following that process He is looking If
9
there's an alleged or concern of whether or not
10
there's an asbestos hazard he does sampling
11
He doesn't find anything So he never makes it
12
to the third step of that process
13
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
14
Move to strike
15
BY MR ADAMS
16
Q Okay The other topic that I wanted
17
to touch on is counsel was talking to you about
18
comparing like a Peterbilt or Kenworth
19
dealership to a car dealership
20
And you said you know from a
21
thousand view it's similar but
Page 173
1
operation
2
Now we a talked little bit about
3
stock trucks But what dealerships will do is
4
they'll look out if they're -- and this is
5
based off of my personal knowledge of dealing
6
with dealers -- is they will determine what
7
customers are around that might buy a truck --
8
you know there are some people they're not
9
going to buy ten trucks They're not going to
10
go through that ordering process But what
11
kind of customers do I want to build a stock
12
truck for
13
And so they might build one that's
14
set up to become a dump truck Or they might
15
build one -- yeah they might order one that's
16
set up to be an road truck hauling a
17
flatbed versus it might be a little bit
18
different if it's hauling a refrigerated van
19
Or whether it's going short distance versus
20
long distance with or without a sleeper for
21
instance
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Page 174
1
So they will look at their customer
2
base that they have in their area And that's
3
how they determine what a stock truck would
4
look like for them
5
So they would still go through that
6
same decision process of determining what
7
options do we want on this truck What
8
configurations do we need this truck to be so
9
that people will purchase it
10
MR RUCKDESCHEL Move to strike that
11
entire speculative narrative as fantasy
12
BY MR ADAMS
13
Q Have you had personal experience with
14
this through your years as working for
15
Peterbilt and as a mechanic
16
A Yes
17
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
18
And improper expert opinion
19
BY MR ADAMS
20
Q Have you personally seen it sir
21
A Yes I have
Page 176
1
1983. But you did have some experience in the
2
truck industry prior to 1983 fair
3
A Yes
4
Q right You've just provided your
5
opinion regarding how dealers in -- including
6
dealers in Maryland in the 1960s and 1970s
7
would have behaved is that fair to say
8
MR ADAMS Objection
9
THE WITNESS Well I would say I've
10
provided my opinion based off of 40 years
11
experience
12
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
13
Q Were you --
14
A Excuse me - based off 40 years
15
experience at Peterbilt based off prior
16
experience as a mechanic and the fact that I
17
grew up with a dad who drove a truck And so
18
I've seen those things occur over time
19
Q How sophisticated was Mr. Morris when
20
he bought his first Kenworth
21
A I don't know You would have to ask
Page 175
Page 177
1
Q So is it fair to say based on your
2
experience and your viewing and being a part
3
of this process that a stock truck doesn't
4
mean it comes with standard parts a stock
5
truck is just a truck that's been ordered to
6
sit on the lot
1
him I don't know Mr. Morris
2
Q Well you just testified that people
3
that buy truck are sophisticated customers
4
How sophisticated was Mr. Morris
5
A I don't know how sophisticated he
6
was
7
MR RUCKDESCHEL Same objection
8
Calls for speculation Beyond the personal
9
knowledge Improper expert testimony
10
THE WITNESS A stock truck in the
11
world of Peterbilt and Kenworth for certain
12
is a truck that's ordered by a dealer to be
13
stocked on their lot It is not a standard
7
Q How far did he go in school
8
A I don't believe he graduated from
9
high school
10
Q What interaction did he have with a
11
dealership from which he bought any of his
12
Kenworth trucks
13
A I don't know
14
truck
15
MR ADAMS That's all I have sir
16
Thank you
17
FURTHER EXAMINATION
18
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
19
Q Mr. Curbo I have a couple follow
20
questions It's Jon Ruckdeschel With respect
21
to your time -- you started at Peterbilt in
14
Q What dealership did he buy them from
15
A He testified to I think an
16
international dealership or -- yeah an
17
international dealership Ford dealership I
18
don't recall the names a Kenworth dealership
19
in Chester
20
Q Have you ever been to that Kenworth
21
dealership
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Page 178
1
A No I have not
2
Q Do you know any of the people that
3
worked there in the 60s or 70s
4
A No I do not
5
Q Do you have any records as to how
6
they conducted business
7
A No do not Well I would say
8
PACCAR does in the fact that we have final
9
chassis bill of materials from -- assuming that
10
they actually sold trucks -- from that dealer
11
Q Did PACCAR go back and look at its
12
historic records for 1978 model year K100s K100s and
13
look for Mr. Morris
14
A What I would say is that's really
15
almost -- that's almost impossible to do
16
because the records are indexed by serial
17
number if you will
18
They're indexed by -- prior to '81
19
it was what we call a chassis number Post
20
'81 once the VINs came in the chassis number
21
is the last six digits of the VIN that those
Page 180
1
next week and it might be six months from now
2
before chassis number one is built And I've
3
seen that all the time It happens all the
4
time
5
Q How many units did Kenworth
6
manufacture in 1978
7
A I don't have those numbers right off
8
the top of my head
9
Q How many units did PACCAR in total
10
manufacture in 1978
11
A Like I said I don't have those
12
numbers on the top of my head -- off the top of
13
my head
14
Q Did Peterbilt or Kenworth manufacture
15
more tractors in 1978
16
A What I can tell you over time is they
17
were about the same
18
Q Okay
19
A There was obviously always
20
differences They were pretty comparable over
21
time
Page 179
1
records are only indexed by that number
2
And so what you're talking about is
3
going back and looking through probably tens of
4
thousands of records to try to find one that
5
may or may not have the name of the customer
6
the ultimate customer
7
So it's almost impossible I
8
wouldn't say it's impossible But it would
9
take an awful lot of time
10
Q Are the chassis numbers sequential
11
A They are
12
Q Okay
13
A Well the numbers are sequential
14
based off of when that order came in But just
15
because an order came -- if I have two chassis
16
numbers -- let's just make it easy I've got
17
chassis order number one and number two
18
And there's nothing -- there's all
19
kinds of things that can happen including the
20
customer saying when do I want those trucks
21
built The chassis number two can be built
Page 181
1
Q right Well in Exhibit 28 the
2
Pursuit of Quality book on page 205 PACCAR
3
states that in 1978 it produced 14,128 truck
4
units
5
Based on your testimony would it be
6
your assumption as the corporate representative
7
of PACCAR that that was approximately 7,000
8
Kenworths
9
A I would say probably 7,000 to 8,000
10
But again I would have to look at the numbers
11
to make sure
12
Q Sure Okay And PACCAR has made no
13
attempt to look at its 1978 records to
14
ascertain where the build sheet is for the K100
15
that Mr. Morris purchased new correct
16
A think I have -- you know --
17
Q My question isn't why did you do it
18
or not do it My question is has PACCAR made
19
an attempt in this case to locate the build
20
sheet for the 1978 K100 Mr. Morris purchased
21
Have they made an effort or not
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Page 182
1
MR ADAMS Objection
2
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
3
Q Your counsel can ask you why Just
4
tell me yes or no
5
A I don't believe that we have
6
Q right And the same would be for
7
the '68 W900 and the '74 W900 correct
8
A That's correct
9
MR ADAMS Objection
10
MR RUCKDESCHEL No further
11
questions
12
FURTHER EXAMINATION
13
BY MR ADAMS
14
Q Sir you explained this a little bit
15
Can you once again for the jury explain the
16
reason why it's so difficult to track down any
17
particular tractor without the VIN or chassis
18 number
19
A Well first of all they're not --
20
the numbers are not sequential So what you
21
might be able to do -- well first of all
Page 184
1
about this case
2
MR ADAMS That's fine Thank you
3
sir
4
FURTHER EXAMINATION
5
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
6
Q right I have one more sir
7
One thing you can do is you can look
8
to see what model truck it was You wouldn't
9
have to look for the customer name All you
10
would have to do is look and make sure it was a
11
K100 or you can exclude it correct
12
MR ADAMS Objection Form
13
THE WITNESS That one piece of
14
information still takes you three to five
15
minutes to look up
16
MR RUCKDESCHEL Okay
17
Go ahead David
18
EXAMINATION
19
BY MR QUIGG
20
Q Mr. Curbo this is David Quigg Good
21
afternoon Can you hear me okay
Page 183
1
you've got to deal with that
2
Secondly those records are on
3
microfiche And so what you would have to do
4
is -- say if I were wanting to be able to find
5
data it's like looking for a needle in a
6 haystack
7
I have to go find a chassis number
8
that was built during that time frame And
9
then I would have to take not 7,000 but
10
probably ten or 15,000 of final chassis bill of
11
materials because as I said they're not
12
built sequentially And then I would have to
13
go in and look at each one of those for the
14
customer name
15
And previously I've been asked about
16
that And I believe that we actually timed how
17
long it would take And it was like three to
18
five minutes per truck just to go in and look
19
for one piece of information
20
So I don't know figure that out in
21
hours that's a lot longer than we've known
Page 185
1
A can
2
Q represent Eaton Corporation I
3
just have a few questions for you
4
Earlier in response to counsel's
5
questions I believe from Rockwell you were
6
asked about and shown a document -- I didn't
7
write down the Bates number -- it was a final
8
chassis bill of materials that showed Eaton
9
axles and Eaton brakes
10
Do you recall that document
11
A I don't think it was shown I was
12
just asked about it
13
Q Okay I thought there was something
14
that was flashing up on the screen with a
15
PACCAR Bates number
16
Well let me just ask you sir In
17
doing your research in this case have you
18
come -- I thought it was your testimony that
19
you identified a final chassis bill of
20
materials that was associated with somebody
21
with the last name of Morris but it wasn't --
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Page 186
1
you weren't clear as to whether or not that
2
order had been fulfilled
3
A I think you must have misunderstood
4
We found - we have data that is searchable
5
It's electronic from 1988 on And so anytime
6
we have a case like this we look for customer
7
names
8
And so we did the same thing We
9
went and looked -- I did a search on the word
10
Morris for a customer name And we found a
11
truck that was built I believe it was a 1999
12
for an Alan Morris
13
And so we -- although it was out of
14
the date range we said you know this might
15
be responsive We produced that
16
That particular truck that was
17
built -- that was ordered and built for
18
allegedly a customer named Alan Morris whether
19
or not it was the same Alan Morris we don't
20
know was -- that truck was built with Eaton
21
axles and Eaton brakes They were nonasbestos
Page 188
1
FURTHER EXAMINATION
2
BY MR MARSHALL
3
Q Mr. Curbo is it fair to say that if
4
a Kenworth brochure or spec sheet simply lists
5
out the size of cam brakes that are standard
6
equipment on a truck without any identification
7
of brand or manufacturer -- for example if a
8
spec sheet or brochure only lists out 16 1/2 by
9
7 by 4 inch cam brakes then those brakes
10
could have been supplied by any of the brake
11
suppliers Kenworth utilized at the time is
12
that fair
13
A That's my understanding
14
MR RUCKDESCHEL Objection to form
15
BY MR MARSHALL
16
Q sorry did you say that's my
17
understanding
18
A I said that's my understanding
19
MR MARSHALL Okay Thank you sir
20
21
Page 187
Page 189
1
brakes
2
Q Okay
1
FURTHER EXAMINATION
2
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
3
A But you would expect that given the
3
Q right Mr. Curbo I have one last
4
time frame that it was built
4
question This is Jon Ruckdeschel
45
Q Certainly Certainly So for the
6
particular vintage years that are at issue in
--
If Mr. Mulhausen testifies that the
6
brake assemblies on the Kenworth trucks that
7
this case amI correct you don't have any
8
information based upon your review of the
7
Mr. Morris owned were Rockwell brake
8
assemblies that would be entirely consistent
9
documents that would show any of the three
10
Kenworth trucks that Mr. Morris -- the decedent
ce)
with your understanding of how Kenworth
10
manufactured trucks like the 1968 W900 the
11
in this case -- purchased or owneda truck that
12
had Eaton axles or Eaton brakes on it correct
11
1974 W900 and the 1978 K100 all of those had
12
Rockwell brakes available for them correct
13
A As understand your question I
13
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
14
believe it's correct
14
THE WITNESS No. What I would say
15
MR QUIGG Okay Thank you sir
15
is -- I wouldn't say no way But the only way
16
Those are my questions
16
to determine what brakes were on a given truck
17
MR MARSHALL I've got another quick
17
is to get the chassis number and look it up on
18
question if I'm next in line This is Barret
18
the final chassis bill of material
19
Marshall again
19
Were trucks during that time frame
20
MR RUCKDESCHEL Go ahead
20
built with Rockwell brakes to the best of my
21
MR MARSHALL Okay Thanks
21
knowledge they were But they were also built
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1
with other brakes as well
Page 190
3
Q Mr. Mulhausen testifies that based
his
4
on his personal knowledge of the brakes that
5
were on Mr. Morris's trucks they were Rockwell
something
that's
6
brakes not Eaton brakes that's something that
7
would be consistent with the information that
8
you have about the types of brakes that
9
Kenworth put on its trucks?
10
MR MARSHALL Objection Form
11
BY MR RUCKDESCHEL
.
:
12
Q Correct
13
A As said during that time frame
14
Kenworth built trucks with Rockwell brakes as
15
well as other brakes
16
Q And when you were working as a
mechanic
17
mechanic in the 1970s on heavy trucks you
18
could visually tell the difference between an
19
Eaton cam brake and a Rockwell cam brake
20 correct
21
A Yes there are differences
Page 192
123
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
123
STATE OF MARYLAND
Sarah Thomas Notary Public 4
I
a
of
tthhee State of Maryland County of Baltimore dodo
5
hereby certify that the named witness
appeared via videoconference at the time and
6
place herein set out and after having been
first duly sworn by me according to law was
7
examined by counsel
8
I further certify that the
examination was recorded stenographically by
9
me and that this transcript is a true record
of the proceedings
10
I further certify that I am not of
11
counsel to any of the parties nor an employee
of counsel nor related to any of the parties
actionaction 12
any way interested in the outcome of the
13
As witness my hand and seal this 19th
14
day of February 2024
15
'
7 q
PUBLIC 16 ;
SARAH
THOMAS
NOTARY
17
My Commission Expires
5/8/2027
18
19
20
21
Page 191
1
MR RUCKDESCHEL All right Thanks
2
NotNhoitnhging furtherfurther
3
THE VIDEOGRAPHER Anybody else
4
:
MR RUCKDESCHEL
Do you want to read
5
and sign or waive Counsel what do you want
6
to do
7
MR ADAMS Yeah we'll read and
8
sign
right
10
We're off the record
Could
you
read
us
off ,
11
Videographer
Madam Videographer
12
THE VIDEOGRAPHER This ends the
deposition
13
deposition of Rod Curbo February 14th 2025
14
The time is 2:06 p.m. We are off the record
With
15
With signature reserved the
16
deposition concluded at 2:06 p.m.
17
18
Page 193
123
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123
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