Document Gmpv367VOGDwVNNnkzEREvbaq

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 2 COLUMBIA DIVISION 3 KATHERINE JOYCE BREWER, et al. , 4 Plaintiffs, 5 -vs- 6 MONSANTO CORPORATION, 7 et al., Nos. 1-88-008 and 1-88-0014 through 1-88-0368 Judge Wiseman 8 Defendants. o 10 11 12 DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT 13 Taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs December 21, 1988 14 15 16 17 18 iij 19 20 21 22 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY Registered Professional Reporters 23 408 Olive Street, Suite 316 St. Louis, Missouri 63102 24 (314) 621-8883 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025900 INDEX Direct examination by Mr. Cuker Page 3 ! i i Parties stipulated to attachment of first and last pages only of lengthy exhibits. STLCOPCB4025901 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 2 COLUMBIA DIVISION 3 KATHERINE JOYCE BREWER, ) et al., ) 4) Plaintiffs, ) Nos. 1-88-008 and 5 ) 1-88-0014 through -vs- ) 1-88-0368 6 ) Judge Wiseman MONSANTO CORPORATION, ) 7 et al. , ) ) 8 Defendants. ) 9 DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT produced, sworn and examined on the 21st day of December, 1988, 10 between the hours of eight o'clock in the forenoon and six o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the 11 Karpowicz Reporting Company Conference Room, 314 North Broadway, 11th Floor, in the City of St. Louis, 1 2 State of Missouri, before Gwen A. Huffman, a Registered Professional Reporter, and Notary Public 13 within and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, in a certain cause now pending in the 14 United States District Court, for the Middle District of Tennessee, Columbia Division, between Katherine 1 5 Joyce Brewer, et al., Plaintiffs, and Monsanto Corporation, et al.. Defendants, taken on behalf of 16 the Plaintiffs. 17 APPEARANCES 1 18 SLAP, WILLIAMS & CUKER ; One Franklin Place, Suite 960 19 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102-1227 ; BY: Mark R. Cuker, Esq., .... For the Plaintiffs. ; 20 SMITH, HELMS, MULLISS & MOORE j 21 500 NCNB Building ; P.O. Box 21927 ! 22 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 BY: David M. Moore, II, Esq., . For the Defendant 23 Monsanto Corporation.: 24 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025902 1 | KING & SPALDING ! 2500 Trust Company Tower 2 Atlanta, Georgia 30303 BY: Richard A. Schneider, Esq. 3 J. Kevin Buster, Esq., . . . For the Defendant Duracell 4 International. 5 DEARBORN & EWING One Commerce Place, Suite 1200 6 Nashville, Tennessee 37239 BY: M. Clark Spoden, Esq., . . . For the Defendant 7 Emhart Industries, Inc. 8 9 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 10 between Counsel for the Plaintiffs and Counsel for 11 the Defendants, that this deposition may be taken in 12 shorthand by GWEN A. HUFFMAN, a Registered 13 Professional Reporter and Notary Public, and 14 afterwards transcribed into typewriting, and that the 15 signature of the witness is not waived. 16 17 JACK T. GARRETT, 18 of lawful age, being produced, sworn and examined on 19 behalf of the Plaintiffs, deposes and says: 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. CUKER: 22 Q. Mr. Garrett, my name is Mark Cuker. I 23 represent a group of workers at the former Waynesboro 24 plant of P. R. Mallory & Company. And I'm going to 2 5 be asking you some questions about your work for KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025903 1 Monsanto in the area of PCBs. 2 If at anytime you don't understand any 3 of my questions, will you let me know and I'll 4 rephrase the question? Will you let me know? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q Okay. Have you testified in any of the 7 PCB litigation involving Monsanto? 8 A. I don't recall. I've been in so God 9 damn many and given so many depositions, I don't 10 recall. 11 Q . You don't recall if it was a PCB? 12 A. Not specifically. 13 Q When did you retire from Monsanto? 14 A. 1985. December 1st, 1985. Three years 15 ago. 16 Q . What was your position? 17 A. Director of industrial hygiene and 1 8 healthservices. . 19 Q. How -- 20 A. And health information services. I'm 21 sorry. 22 Q At the corporate level? 23 A. Yes. I . 24 Q Were you working in the corporate 25 medical department? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025904 3 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How long were you director of industrial 3 hygiene? 4 A. Ten years. Since 1975. . 5 Q. Okay. And before 1975, what positions 6 had you held? 7 A. I was manager of industrial hygiene and 8 pollution abatement. 9 Q W a s that i n the medical department or 10 A. Yes, in the medical department. 11 Q . What was the difference from that and 12 di.rector of industrial hygiene? 13 A. Well, in Monsanto structure, and this is 14 true of very many companies, since -- in the 1 5 pollution abatement function, up through the -- in 16 through the '60s and into the early '70s was handled 17 on the state level by the state health department's 18 division or department of sanitary engineering. And 19 because of that, most companies began their pollution 20 control activities in their health departments 21 because that's where it was in the states. 22 In my case, ninety percent of the states 23 of the twenty-six states Monsanto operated in, and I 24 dealt with the health department, a division of the 2 5 state health department. And it's true to this day. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025905 1 In many, many states, it still is. 2 Q. Did you report to a director of 3 industrial hygiene? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And who was that? 6 A. Elmer Wheeler. 7 Q. Elmer Wheeler? 8 A. Elmer Wheeler. 9 0, How long were you manager of industrial 10 hygiene and pollution control? 11 A. Well, because of thevery small 12 department at the time, I didn't even know what my 13 title was half the time, depending on the grade 1 4 levels. Because we operated as individual 15 professionals that got together periodically to 16 discuss common problems. 17 Q. Let me perhaps rephrase the question. I i 1 8 How long were you working as an industrial hygienist 19 at the corporate level? 20 A. From 1953. 21 Q. Through '75? 22 A. Through -- 23 Q. Well, through '85? 24 A. Through actually '85, yes. 25 Q. In a capacity of not being chief of the KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025906 / 1 department, be '53 through '75? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how much of that time were you 4 working under Elmer Wheeler? 5 A. All of it. 6 Q. Was he thedirector of industrial 7 hygiene all of that time? 8 A. He was directorof occupational health. 9 They had a different title for.him. But, yes, he was 10 my boss and he was the director of industrial 11 hygiene. 12 Q. Was the director of occupational health 13 the same as the director of industrial hygiene? 1 4 A. What's in a name. 15 Q. That's what -- my point. 16 A. That was his part of the medical setup. 17 Dr. Kelly took care of the medical part. 1 8 Q. Okay. Was he subordinate to Dr. Kelly? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know where Mr. Wheeler is today, 21 other than being in the Carolinas? 22 A. He's in Camden, South Carolina. 23 Q. You know how old he is? 24 A. Seventy-three, seventy-four. 25 Q. Okay. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025907 1 A. He's had two heart operations, so 2 Q. Was Mr. Wheeler involved in the 3 activities of the American Industrial Hygiene 4 Association? 5 A. He was president of it once. ' 6 Q. He was the president of it? 7 A. Vice president, president, yeah. 8 Q. You remember when that was? 9 A. I should because I worked my ass off 10 while he was being president of AIHA. It had to have 11 been in the late '60s. 12 MR. CUKER: Off the record. 13 (A discussion was held off the record.) 14 THE WITNESS: He was -- being president 1 5 of AIHA took up half his time, literally half his 16 time. He had to visit all the local sections, 17 including the ones in Europe. 18 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) Were you active in AIHA? 1 9 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. And how were you active in AIHA? 21 A. I was local president and so forth 22 periodically in the local section in St. Louis. I 23 was also the chairman of the membership committee for 2 4 several years. 2 5 Q. Did anyone in Monsanto serve on the TLV KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025908 1 committees of ACGIH for PCBs? 2 A. They could not have. 3 Q. Why is that? 4 A. ACGIH is an American Conference of 5 Governmental Industrial Hygienists, and an industrial 6 man could not be on those committees. 7 Q. Okay. AIHA did not have TLV committees 8 for PCBs ? 9 A. They have, in recent years, have what 10 they call wheel committees, which is very similar, 11 except the wheel committee produces a document that 12 is more extensive than just the TLV. 13 Q. Okay. And recent years being when? 14 A. Well, you -- the wheel committees 1 5 probably started somewhere in the late '70s or early 16 '80s. I think late '70s. Probably '79. '78, '79. 17 Q. Did Dr. Roush serve on a wheel 18 committee - 1 9 A. No. 20 Q. -- for PCBs? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Let me show you an exhibit that's 23 already been marked as Roush Exhibit 2. Do you 24 recognize that document? 2 5 A. Yes. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025909 1 Q. You see your name in the lower left-hand 2 corner of that document? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was your involvement with the 5 preparation of that document? 6 A. I wrote it. 7 Q. You wrote it? 8 A. Yes. Or the original one. 9 Q. What was the original one? 10 A. Well, which date is this? Excuse me a 11 minute. 12 MR. MOORE: '65, I believe. 13 THE WITNESS: I wrote it. They've since 14 modified it several times with different people. 15 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) When was it modified for 16 the first time? 17 A. I have no idea. 1 8 Q. Were the different people who modified 19 it Monsanto people? 20 A. No, not necessarily. 21 Q. Okay. Do you know -- I understand not 22 i necessarily. Do you know of any -- you specifically 23 know if any specific Monsanto people - 24 A. No, I do not know. 25 MR. CUKER: Off the record. On the KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025910 ii 1 record. 2 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) You've been deposed a 3 lot of times. You should know that you shouldn't 4 answer my question until I'm done asking it. Okay? 5 Do you know specifically if any Monsanto 6 people were involved with writing revisions of this 7 Roush Exhibit 2 , the A IH A guide? 8 A. NO. 9 Q. Okay. What was Elmer Wheeler's 10 involvement with this document? 11 A. He and I -- he brought up the material 12 and I wrote it. 13 Q. Okay. Was this doc -- was this sent out 14 to Monsanto customers using PCBs? 1 5 A. With the documents that Monsanto 1 6 customers used, yes, it was. 17 Q. I'm sorry, what do you mean by with the 18 documents that they used? 19 A. The sales document and the like, yes, it 20 was. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. It was one of those documents. 23 Q. Would it have been routinely sent out to 24 the customers using PCBs? 25 A. It would depend on the salesmen. But it KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025911 z 1 was given to the -- sales department had copies of i ii 2 it. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And I see no reason why they should not 5 have. 6 Q. Okay. Was it sent out through the sales 7 department rather than through the industrial hygiene 8 department? 9 . A. Initially, yes, 10 Q. Okay. How frequently did you visit the ! 11 Krummrich plant? 12 MR. MOORE: What period of time, Mark? 13 Q. (BY MR. CCJKER) Yeah, that's fair. 1 4 Let's say 1969 to 1977. f ii 1 5 A. I visited Krummrich plant probably many, 16 many times a year during the early period of my 17 employment until we began to grow larger with 18 assignees. Then the Krummrich plant was assigned to 19 another hygienist who reported to me. 20 Q. Okay. '69 to '76, did you have someone 21 reporting to you on the Krummrich plant or were you 22 still going there? 23 A. Part of that time. 24 Q. When would the reporting period have 2 5 started? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025912 1 A. Sometime in the early '70s, like '70, 2 '71. 3 Q. Okay. After that, how often did you go 4 to the Krummrich plant? 5 A. Oh, probably one or two times a year. 6 Q. Were you familiar with the types of 7 physical examinations performed by the plant 8 physician at the Krummrich plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Did he conduct an examination - 11 was part of his examination geared towards 12 determining whether the employees had liver problems? 13 A. He did a full physical, and had they had 14 liver problems over the yearly physicals, they would 15 have been -- it would have developed, or they would 16 have reported it to the dispensary. 17 Q. Did he order any tests to determine if 1 8 they had liver problems? 19 A. Not - 20 MR. BUSTER: Are you talking - 21 THE WITNESS: Not in the early part of 22 the period when I was there. 23 Q . (BY MR . CUKER) Meaning what? 2 4 A . When I did very f r eq ue nt periods. 25 Q - Which would be what ? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025913 X ** 1 A. Up through 1970. j 2 Q. Okay. Do you know what he did, whether 3 he began to order liver tests routinely on these 4 annual physicals after 1970? 5 A. I'm not -- I don't know of my own . 6 knowledge, no. 7 Q. Okay. Do you know what an SMA-12 is? ! It j ii 8 A. Y e s. 9 Q. Do you recall whether an SMA-12 ever J 10 became part of the Monsanto standard annual physical | 11 within thecorporate medicalprogram? | 12 A. You'd have to ask Dr. Kelly. We may 13 have done them on some people. Our physical exam 14 program is based on age, occupation. Periodicity 15 was -- I'm sorry, the periodicity and the extent of 16 the exam, let's be careful, were based on age, 17 location, potential exposure. 18 For example, that was the people in the | 1 9 plants got annual physicals. All research people got j 20 annual physicals.People that saton their duff in 21 the office got them every two or three years, j I | 22 depending on their age. At a certain point in age, 23 everyone got an annual physical. 24 Q. How about extent of the examination, how 2 5 did that vary? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025914 15 1 A. Well, it was a complete exam, chest 2 x-ray, full hands-on exam by the physician, blood 3 test, and any special tests that had been specified 4 for that particular gentleman. _ 5 Q. Okay. Were there any special tests 6 specified for PCB workers? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Now, the question you suggested I ask 9 Dr. Kelly I asked Dr. Roush yesterday about when the 10 SMA-12 became part of the exam, and his 11 recollection -- his testimony I think was something 12 in the -- approximately the mid '70s, like '75 or 13 '76. Does that refresh your recollection as to when 14 it happened? 15 A. You'd have to decide what the SMA-12 16 means and what happened prior to that terminology. 17 Q. Okay . 18 A. In other words,blood examinations for 19 various things were done long before anybody ever 20 used the term SMA-12. 21 Q . I see. 22 A. Or SMAor SMAanything else. 23 Q. So Monsanto may have been doing those 24 without calling them SMA-12s? 25 A. We may have been doing a blood exam. To KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025915 16 1 what extent it was done, I don't know. That's 2 medical business. 3 Q. Okay. Did you consider this document to 4 still be applicable to work place practices in 1976? 5 MR. MOORE: You're talking about 6 Roush 2? 7 MR. CUKER: Yeah. 8 THE WITNESS: Personally? 9 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) Yeah. 10 A. Do I consider it that? 11 Q. No, did you. In 1976 - 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- did you consider it to still be 14 applicable? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You did? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. In 1977? Through the time that 19 Monsanto stopped making PCBs. i 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. There's areference in thisdocument to 22 elevated temperatures, when these materials are 23 subjected to elevated temperatures. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You see that? What temperaturedid tha KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025916 1/ 1 mean? 2 A. It would depend on the circumstances and 3 the equipment involved. If it got to very high 4 temperatures, the material would creep, would creep 5 through joints and stuff like that, if you know what 6 I mean. Oil does at very high temperatures. That's 7 why you get oil drops in your garage and think it's 8 horrible. The fact is it creeps through the joints 9 of even tight joints. 10 At very high temperatures, you could 11 elevate -- you could increase the vapor pressure of 12 the materials irrespective of which one they were, 13 depending on the temperature, to the point at where 1 4 there was airborne concentrations that would become 15 what I would consider hazardous. 16 Q. What temperature is that that would 17 increase the airborne concentration? 1 8 A. Depend on the Aroclor. 19 Q. 1242. 20 A. Oh, hell, I don't remember. 21 Q. Okay. By the way, did you consider this 22 also applicable to Aroclor 1016? 23 A. Well, 1016 was a lighter material in 2 4 respect to its vapor pressure. It would be 25 applicable as it would be to low chlorinated Aroclor, KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025917 1o 1 like 1236. 2 Q. Did Monsanto follow - 3 A. Or 1242. 4 Q. I'm sorry, did you say - 5 A. 1236, 1242, the early ones. 6 Q. Would it be considered applicable the 7 same for 1016 - 8 A. Yes. 9 Q.. -- as it would be to 1242? . 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Just so I'munderstanding, in terms of 12 the part here where it talks about "When these 13 materials are subjected to elevated temperatures, the 14 process either should be completely enclosed or other 15 adequate mechanical exhaust ventilation must be 16 provided," if I understand what you're saying, that 17 is not an absolute temperature like a number, that 18 is -- an elevated temperature is a temperature at 1 9 which it will seep out of the joint - 20 A. A temperature at whichit is possible 21 for it to exceed the standards on its own without 22 being mechanically thrown around or anything. 23 Most Aroclors at room temperature have 24 no vapor pressure. It's so low it does not exceed 25 these. And we did test on these to prove it. It KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025918 19 1 simply does not -- if you sit here, it does not give 2 off enough fumes to register on the analytical 3 equipment available in those days. 4 Q. Did you do any tests to see what kind of 5 fumes are given off at fifty-five degrees centigrade 6 or higher? 7 A. I don't recal1 . 8 Q. Okay. Or at a hundred degrees 9 centigrade? i 10 A. I don't recall. Those probably were 11 done, but I didn't do that and I don't recall. 12 Q. Okay. Did you ever work with a Paul 13 Benignus? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In what way did you work with him? 16 A. We went to customers from time to time 17 if Elmer wasn't -- was busy or something. 18 Q. Did he work in industrial hygiene? 19 A. Who? 20 Q. Mr. Beni gnus. 21 A. No, he was a technical sales 22 representative. The salesmen went in and bit the 23 customer and Benignus came in and bit him again. 24 Benignus knew how to use it, its characteristics, 25 most of the -- of a great deal of experience in KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025919 zu 1 manufacture and in containment and that sort of 2 stuff. He was a technical man in the sales 3 department. They're still there. 4 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document that's 5 already been marked Weber 3, Weber Exhibit 3. This 6 is a fairly hefty manual by Mr. Benignus. 7 A. U h-h uh. 8 Q . Do you recall seeing that - 9 A. I've seen it, yeah. 1 0 Q . Okay. 11 A. I've seen it in the printed form. 12 Q. Was this updated? 13 A. I don't know. I have no idea. 14 Q. This- is page ninety-nine of the manual. 1 5 And I believe at the second full paragraph there is a 16 reference to capacitor impregnation. Do you see 17' that? 1 8 A . U h-huh . 1 9 Q. Did Monsanto ever conduct any tests to 20 see what type of fumes would be released at that 21 capacitor impregnation temperature? 22 A. No, not that I know of. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. If they did, I didn't have anything to 25 do with it. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025920 21 1 Q. Do you know what the basis was for 2 Mr. Benignus saying about respirators being used 3 during that interval? 4 A. No, except that Mr. Benignus knew the 5 product and the health possibilities sufficient to be 6 able to make those judgments, I think, in this case, 7 yes. 8 Q. Did you concur in that judgment? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. And would you have felt the same way in 11 1 97 6? 12 A. Yes. Mr. Benignus and I visited some 13 people. We turned down two customers for use. 14 Q. Which customers did you visit and turn 15 down? 16 A. We turned down one of the -- one of the 17 manufacturers of preformed insulation and a tile 1 8 manufacturer. 1 9 Q These were not capacitor manufacturers? 20 A. N o. 21 Q This was back in the days when they were 22 not selling the enclosed systems? 23 A. This was back in the '60s. Anyway, we 24 were flying in DC-3 s. 2 5 Q. Did you ever visit the P. R. Mallory KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025921 1 plant in Waynesboro, Tennessee? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And you visited the - 4 A. I never did anything. Elmer did that. 5 Q. Do you know what the budgetary criteria 6 system was at the Krummrich plant, the PCB operation 7 at the Krummrich plant? 8 A. No, I have no idea. It would have 9 been -- any budgetary system over there would have 10 been budgeted in the personnel department and it I i 11 would have been covered by the personnel's overall 1 2 budget since their safety and eventually industrial 13 hygiene services were budgeted and managed under 14 personnel. 1 5 Q. Okay. Would that include the cost of 16 the protective clothing used? 17 A,_ NO. 18 Q. What was that budgeted under? 19 A. That would be budgeted under the 20 individual divisions. ii 21 Q. That issued the clothing? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Dr. Osland, what would he be budgeted 24 under? 2 5 A. He would be budgeted under personnel. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025922 1 The cost of personnel was a part of cost of goods. 2 Q. How frequently do they do sampling - 3 sample the air for PCBs at that plant? 4 A. At what period of time? 5 Q. Let's say '69 to '77. 6 A. Probably not very frequently since it 7 was a very cumbersome job. 8 Q. Air sampling? 9 A. U h-h uh. 10 Q. What did they use to sample? 11 A. Used a very complicated system of 12 breaking down the Aroclor to hydrogen chloride, 13 absorb the hydrogen chloride in a fixed base, and 14 then backtracking the base. 15 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Papageorge testified 16 that after 1970 they went to a system where they used .17 these vessels containing hexane to sample the air for 1 8 PCBs. Were you familiar with that? - 19 A. No. That's the one where you run it up 20 the outside tool container, I presume? 21 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said. 22 A. That's the kind that you run the -- a 23 gas, and by adiabatic cooling collect samples, is 24 that what you're talking about? 25 Q. Adiabatic? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025923 1 A. By cooling. 2 Q. Okay. I don't know if that's what I'm 3 talking about or not. 4 A. I don't know what he's talking about 5 either. 6 Q. Okay. He described something with a 7 pump sucking the air through vessels which contained 8 a solvent, and the solvent would capture the 9 contaminant. 10 A. Well, but that's common system. They 11 used what's known as a -- we had a hand pump, and you 12 pumped material through Greenberg Smith impingers or 13 midget impingers, although we preferred the Greenberg 1 4 Smith impingers. Great big tubes. 15 To ship that equipment would cost you 16 about a hundred and twenty-five percent of a -- of i .17 | your own personal, air ticket, by the way. The whole 1 8 thing weighed, oh, two or three hundred pounds, all 19 of the equipment with all the Greenberg Smith tubes, 20 the tripod. The pump weighed thirty-eight pounds 21 that we used. And you had -- you brought two cases 22 of tubes, one of bubblers and one -23 Q. Mr. Garrett, are we talking about what 24 was done in the '70s here? 25 A. We're talking about what was done up to KARPOW.ICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025924 1 the time of the individual samplers. And the early 2 individual samplers weren't worth a dime. 3 Q. When were the early samplers used? 4 A. Introduced in the '70s. And the early 5 ones failed more frequently than they worked, and we 6 never could get really correct air volume 7 measurements with them. 8 Q . Nev e r ? 9 A. We never could. 10 Q. Okay. How long were you trying? 11 A. Well, the first good ones were probably 12 made by DuPont, in our opinion. Sippen made a good 13 one for short-term sampling. Anyone that preceded 1 4 that, as far as we're concerned, would not maintain 15 the airflows. 16 Q. What do you mean, the pump would run 17 down? - 1 8 A. Well, you're talking about a little tiny 19 plastic pump with a battery, and you're trying to get 20 an eight hour sample. 21 First, most of them wouldn't take an 22 eight hour sample until the midget ones introduced 23 originally by Sippen and followed by DuPont. The big 24 maker of pumps today is DuPont. 25 Q. When was this midget one introduced by KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025925 1 DuPont and Sippen? 2 A. In the early '70s. They weren't 3 perfected until -- they became very reliable pumps 4 probably in the early '80s. And by the mid '80s, 5 they were accepted as accurate and they were very 6 accurate and they -- by this time had extensive !| i ; j j 7 electronic stuff in it so you could set them or 8 anything, set them for time-lapse, anything. They do 9 anything including milk for you, if you had it set up | | 10 right. 11 Q. Now, by problem with the pump, do you 12 mean that because the pump was not reliable, you i | i j j 13 could never be sure of what volume of air had gone 14 through the sample? 1 5 A. In the early days. j i i 16 Q. And, therefore, the concentration figure 7 7 would be meaningless? f 18 A. That's right, that's why we carried all j 19 this heavy gear. We used rotameters for -- good, j | 20 heavy, balanced rotameters for our air volume j ! j 21 measurements. And we read the rotameters on periodic j 22 intervals. And the test result looked like a piece j 23 of paper with the readings for almost every twenty, : 24 thirty minutes to get a decent sample. 25 Q. Did you ever use organic vapor tubes or KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025926 1 carbon tubes for sampling of PCBs? 2 A. Oh, my, yes. Later on, when you got 3 the -- when you could produce and integrate a 4 chromatogram for the PCBs in general, we would use 5 the carbon tubes, and where you -- where we could 6 quantitate them accurately, you could get the -- the 7 chromatogram for PCBs using electron capture 8 technique, you can get a chromatogram. 9 But when you could quantitate them 10 accurately, that means tell how much was there 11 accurately, we used the carbon tubes and we used all 12 types of absorptive materials, including carbon, in 13 tubes. 1 4 Q. When were you doing that? 15 A. From the early '70s through until the 16 time I quit. 17 Q, Okay. Was.it - - . 18 A. All -- every incident of improvement, 1 9 considering the analytical methods and considering 20 the pumps available. 21 Q. Was there a preference for the vessels 22 with the solvents over the carbon tubes? 23 A. No, no, no, they didn't -- we -- you're 24 not going to carry all that junk around if you could 25 do it with a thing as big as a cigarette package and KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025927 1 a pack about as big as an ordinary cough drop package 2 in your pocket. You're not going to carry that three 3 hundred pounds of trash around. 4 I drove my cars to death carrying that 5 around. The airlines wouldn't take some of that. 6 And besides that, the first time I ever detected for 7 PCBs in the air with a so-called chlorinated 8 hydrocarbon detector made by a gentleman in Dayton, 9 Ohio in his own shop, I guess, and it was so 10 delicate, because it had so much glassware connected 11 with it, that if we put it on an airplane in those 12 days, you'd never -- you'd have to go to a glass 13 blower immediately and have it put back together 14 again. 1 5 So we frequently -- I drove all over 16 this damn country in my personal car to do sampling. 17 And one of the samplers, this thing was about this 18 big, about this long. 19 Q. What are we talking about here, carbon? 20 A. Talking about a sampler for Aroclors. 21 Q. Okay. What kind? 22 A. It was elec -- it was a chlorinated 23 hydrocarbon detector. I don't know who made it. But 24 a lot of the instruments were made those days in what 25 you'd call garage shops. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025928 C D 1 Keep in mind, when I went in -- when I 2 was a member or the chairman of the committee for the 3 national AIH A membership committee, we had a great 4 party and we had five hundred members. There are 5 seven thousand of them now. 6 So a person that wanted to make 7 instruments for this business in those days had 8 little incentive. Today, they have much incentive. 9 Because those - 10 MR. MOORE: You've answered his 11 question. 12 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) Were carbon tubes ever 13 used in series? 1 4 A. In series? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Depending on whatyou want to measure. 17 ' Q,, PCB s <. '' 1 8 A. I don't know why you'd use them in 19 series. If you used the proper air settings and the 20 proper tube, you're going to absorb enough on there 21 to get you a sample that you can quantitate. 22 Q. Do you remember a recommended flow rate 23 for sampling with carbon tubes? 24 A. No, Ido not. 25 Q. Did Monsanto keepthat information? KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025929 1 A. I'm sure we did. ; 2 Q. Could you recall whether it was less 3 than one liter per minute or one liter per minute? I I 4 A. It would depend, again, on the size -- j I 5 on the type of pump you have. And if the pump -- and 6 airflow characteristics would depict the kind of tube 7 you used. 8 You could get tubes that would take low 9 airflows and high airflows depending on the amount of j | 10 carbon or the amount of absorption in the tube. And j 11 you can get pumps now that are quite accurate and j j 1 2 work a good twenty-four hour -- 13 Q. Back in the '70s, I mean. 1 4 MR. MOORE: What part of the '70s? 15 MR. CUKER: Let's say '73 to '76. 16 MR. BUSTER: What are you asking? 17 - . TH..E -WITNESS : We'd be carrying a . big-...-... 1 8 load, probably. We'd be carrying the sample with - 19 either the hand pump sampler or the heavy electrical 20 pump with the Greenberg Smith impingers in those 21 days. j j| 22 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) Okay. 23 A. Until we had accurate flow level or j i 24 accurate devices. The first of these little hang-on : 25 pumps came out back in about '69, '70. The first XARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025930 JX 1 ones were not accurate. I mean you have enough : 2 problem with this kind of analyses to have an 3 inaccurate pump. And there is no way of measuring 4 consistently the volume that flowed through. j 5 Q. Okay.When-- ; 6 A. There is today. j i 7 Q. Getting back to let's say the period '73 | 8 to '77, how would that pump have to be monitored -- j 9 A. W el1, yo u -- ; 10 Q. -- whenitwasused? ; 11 A. In those days, you had very short period | 12 pumps. So if you wanted to run an eight hour, we did ; 13 it with a double pump or a triple pump. i 14 Q. Okay. Monsanto did not run eight hours j 15 with a single pump? I 16 A. Not until we had single pumps that we 1 7 ere a c c u r a t e enough to do it, ' - 18 Q . And when was that ? 19 A. Oh, hell, I can't remember the exact : 20 date. | 21 Q. Well,approximately. 22 A. Sometime during the '70s. ; | j j 23 Q. Now, I'm just speaking with regard to i 24 P CB s n ow . ; 25 A. Yes, I'm talking about -- the PCBs are KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025931 1 not unusual sampling material. We sampled 2 everything. 3 Q. Would it have been the late '70s? 4 MR. MOORE: He said he didn't remember. 5 MR. CUKER: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: I really don't remember. 7 You'd have to look up the evolution of the pumps. 8 You can find it in history. Somebody wrote a history 9 of this business, and I'm sure that it would show 10 where the -- when the accuracy was available. It 11 does you very little good to sample if you don't get 12 accurate results. Industrial hygienist's primary job 13 was to go look at the operations. 14 Q. (BY MR. CUKER) What operations? 1 5 A. Any operation that you happened to 16 responsible for. 17 n You mean the w o r k operation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q . Okay . 20 A. That's true. 21 Q . Mr. Garrett, have you reviewed any 22 doc ument s in the 1ast week o r so relating to a 23 meeting between Monsanto people and Mallory people in 24 1 97 6? 25 A. Yes. KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025932 1 Q. Do you have any recollection of that 2 meeting? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did reviewing those documents refresh 5 your recollection in any way of that meeting? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do yourecall talking to anybody about 8 that meeting up until last week or so? 9 A. No. 1 0 MR. CUKER: I have no further 11 questions. 12 MR . BUSTER: W e don1 t have anything. 13 MR. SPODEN: No questions for Emhart. 14 MR . MOORE : Thanks, Jack. 15 16 17 18 this 19 20 21 22 day of My commission ,1 rr/! 19 8 9 ' ' JOSEPHINE S. NI8L0CK expires Notary Puttie-Stato of Missouri St Louis Coutwy- My Commission Expires January 15,1991 ! Notary public " 23 24 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025933 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) 4 I, Gwen A. Huffman, a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public duly commissioned and 5 qualified in and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, do hereby certify that, pursuant to 6 agreement between Counsel, came before me on the 21st j day of December, 1988, at the Karpowicz Reporting i 7 Company Conference Room, 314 North Broadway, 11th Floor, St. Louis, Missouri, JACK T. GARRETT, who was 8 by me first duly sworn on his oath to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his knowledge 9 touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that he was thereupon carefully examined 10 upon his oath, and his examination reduced to writing under my supervision; that the deposition is a true 11 record of the testimony given by the witness. 12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF , I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal this/^^S^day of 13 1989. ! 1 4 My commission will expire January 27th, 1991. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025934 1 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY 408 Olive Street, Suite 316 2 St. Louis, MO 63102 3 January 11, 1989 4 Mr. Jack Garrett 5 429 Geyer Forest St. Louis, MO 63122 6 In Re: Katherine Joyce Brewer, et al . vs 7 Monsanto Corporation, et al. i i j 8 Dear Mr. Garrett: ! iI 9 This letter, incorporated as the last page of your ; deposition taken on December 21, 1988, will serve as ; 10 notice to you that your testimony is now ready for ; your reading and signing of same. j 11 | I would appreciate your contacting my office by 12 calling 314/621-8883 so that arrangements can be made to accomplish this. 13 This letter is being mailed to you, as you know, by 14 Certified Mail with return receipt requested. If we have not heard from you within thirty days after 15 receiving your return receipt, this testimony will be j filed with our indication of this offer of submission i 16 to you and your refusal to sign. ; 17 I would appreciate hearing-, .from you. at your earliest- ; convenience and appreciate your cooperation in this j 18 regard. i 19 Sincerelyyours, i 20 21 Gwen A. Huffman, RPR 22 CERTIFIED MAIL: P 714 737 467 23 MAILED ON: January 11, 1989 24 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025935 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 2 COLUMBIA DIVISION 3 KATHERINE JOYCE BREWER, et al. , 4 Plaintiffs, 5 - v s- 6 MONSANTO CORPORATION, 7 et al., 8 Def endants. ) ) ) ) Nos. 1-88-008 and ) 1-88-0014 through ) 1-88-0368 ) Judge Wiseman ) ) ) ) 9 AFF I DAV IT 10 I, GWEN A. HUFFMAN, a Registered 11 Professional Reporter and Notary Public within and 12 for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that 13 under Certified Mail No. P 714 737 467 14 JACK GARRETT 15 was duly notified that his deposition taken in the 16 above matter had been transcribed and could be read 17 and signed; that signed receipt was .returned- showing 18 signature date of _______________________________________________ 19 That over thirty days have elapsed since the sending 20 of the aforementioned Certified Letter; that there 21 has been no response from this party or counsel; that 22 therefore, said deposition is herewith filed. 23 My Commission-'.expires January 27, 1991. -C-.v' 24 25 KARPOWICZ REPORTING COMPANY STLCOPCB4025936