Document 4aymb2YVpg0yevb7zRyepY2aa

PATRICK DOWSON Page 3 STATE OF MINNESOTA COUNTY OF RAMSEY IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT GLEN L. ENGLE and LESLIE K. ENGLE, individually and as husband and wife, Plaintiffs, v. Court File No.: C4-07-50665 3M CORPORATION; ET AL. Defendants. VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF: PATRICK DOWSON DATE: September 26, 2007 TIME: 10:15 a.m. to 7:34 p.m. PLACE: Hyatt Airport 9300 Airport Boulevard Orlando, Florida 32827 PURSUANT TO: Notice by counsel for Plaintiffs for purposes of discovery, use at trial or such other purposes as are permitted under the Minnesota Rules of Civil Procedure BEFORE: Dorothy A. King, RPR Notary Public, State of Florida Page 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: JESSICA DEAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW 3 Simon, Eddins & Greenstone, LLP 3232 McKinney Avenue, Suite 610 4 Dallas, Texas 75204 214/276-7680 5 FOR OTIS ELEVATOR COMPANY: 6 JOSEPH J. MORFORD, ATTORNEY AT LAW Tucker Ellis & West LLP 7 1150 Huntington Building 925 Euclid Avenue 8 Cleveland, Ohio 44115-1475 216/696-4690 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT U.S. STEEL: 10 RICHARD J. LEIGHTON, ATTORNEY-AT-LAW Reyelts Leighton & Bateman, LTD. 11 700 Providence Building 332 West Superior Street 12 Duluth, Minnesota 55802 218/727-6833 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT INTERNATIONAL PAPER: 14 KENNETH D. RHODES, ATTORNEY-AT-LAW Kacal, Adams & Law, PC 15 One Riverway Suite 1200 16 Houston, Texas 77056 713/529-3992 17 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANT 3M CORPORATION: 18 MARTIN (SKIP) BURKE, ATTORNEY AT LAW Blackwell Burke, PA 19 33 South Sixth Street Suite 4600 20 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402 612/343-3200 21 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANT UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION: 2 2 LISA M. ELLIOTT, ATTORNEY AT LAW Elliott Law Offices 23 2409 West 66th Street Minneapolis, Minnesota 55423 24 612/861-3000 25 (Continued) 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANTS FORD MOTOR COMPANY / GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION; MACK TRUCKS; OKONITE: 3 JAMES H. SONG, ATTORNEY AT LAW Bowman and Brooke LLP 4 150 South Fifth Street Suite 3000 5 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402 612/672-3223 6 7 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANTS SUPERIOR ESSEX, INC.; THYSSENKRUPP ELEVATOR CORPORATION; AND CBS 8 CORPORATION/VIACOM, INC./WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC CORPORATION: DAVID E. SCOUTON, ATTORNEY AT LAW 9 Foley & Mansfield, PLLP 250 Marquette Avenue 10 Suite 1200 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 11 612/349-9846 12 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANTS AMERICAN INSULATED WIRE CORPORATION (AIW); R.T. VANDERBILT COMPANY, INC.; AND KAISER 13 GYPSUM COMPANY, INC.: JASON MOHR, ATTORNEY AT LAW 14 Foley & Mansfield, PLLP 250 Marquette Avenue 15 Suite 1200 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 16 612/349-9846 17 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANT KONE, INC.: TROY A. WOLF, ATTORNEY AT LAW 18 Oppegard, Wolf & Quinton 1800 30th Avenue South 19 Moorhead, Minnesota 56561-0657 218/233-8105. 20 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANTS HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL 21 AND GENERAL ELECTRIC: DONGWOOK KIM, ATTORNEY AT LAW 22 Bassford Remele, PC 33 South Sixth Street 23 Suite 3800 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-3707 24 612/333-3000 2 5 (Continued) Page 4 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANT BONDEX INTERNATIONAL AND AMERICAN STANDARD INC.: 3 DAVID SCHACH, ATTORNEY AT LAW Meagher & Geer, P.L.L.P. 4 33 South Sixth Street Suite 4400 5 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402 6 612/347-9102 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANTS SQUARE-D, SCHNEIDER 7 ELECTRIC, WELCO MANUFACTURING CO. AND GENERAL CABLE INDUSTRIES: 8 ANISSA M. MEDIGER, ATTORNEY AT LAW Murnane Brandt 9 30 East Seventh Street Suite 3200 10 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 651/227-9411 11 12 TELEPHONICALLY FOR THE DEFENDANT SCHINDLER ELEVATOR CORPORATION: 13 MICHAEL J. DWYER, ATTORNEY AT LAW Grannis & Hauge, PA 14 200 Town Centre Professional Building 1260 Yankee Doodle Road 15 Eagan, Minnesota55121 651/456-9000 16 17 TELEPHONICALLY FOR DEFENDANT ALCAN PRODUCTS CORPORATION: MICHAEL GREGERSON, ATTORNEY AT LAW 18 Aafedt, Forde, Gray, Monson & Hager, PA 50 South Fifth Street 19 Suite 3100 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-4242 20 612/339-8965 21 Also Present: Jake Vigliotti, Videographer Jeff Flemming, Videographer 22 Kevin Martin, Videographer 23 24 25 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 5 1 IND EX 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. DEAN Page 10 3 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SCOUTON Page 353 4 CERTIFICATE OF OATH Page 5 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE Pag 6 ERRATA SHEET Page 357 8 EXHIBITS 9 Plaintiffs' Description Marked 10 1 Otis Website 31 2 Otis Website 33 11 3 Otis Employee Handbook 89 4 Internal Correspondence 64 12 April 6, 1983 5 3/15/88 Letter, From Knowles 96 13 6 Otis Elevator Material 108 Specification 14 7 Material Safety Data Sheet 106 8 Otis Elevator Company Material 141 15 Specification Sheet 9 General Cable Corporation document 1148 16 10 Five Photographs 151 11 11/4/86 Letter from Knowles 174 12 Otis Employee Safety Handbook 180 13 Membership List, 1928, American 202 Society of Mechanical Engineers 14 Membership List, 1940, American 207 Society of Mechanical Engineers 15 Membership List, 1934,1935, American 208 Society of Mechanical Engineers 16 Membership List, 1953, American 208 Society of Mechanical Engineers 17 October 1933, Mechanical Engineering 210 Article 18 February, 1935, Mechanical Engineering 220 Article 19 National Safety Council Transactions, 251 24 Volumes 1 through 34, 1951 25 (Continued) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 6 Page 7 P RO C E E DIN GS MS. DEAN: Before we go on the video, I have some stipulations on the record. I have three stipulations: One this is being taken pursuant to the Minnesota Rules of Evidence and Procedure; two, that an objection by one defendant is good for any defendant's present in person or on the phone; and third, that I will not object on the basis of timeliness, and, since this is being videotaped, ask to extent it's natural or possible that objections be made after the answer so that it can flow better, and again I won't object to timeliness. MR. MORFORD: I'm not going to object after the answer, but I will do my very best to object in such a fashion that it doesn't intrude the answer. MS. DEAN: Okay. MR. MORFORD: But I agree with the stipulations. MS. DEAN: And again if you choose to do it on a regular basis, I won't object to timeliness. But if that is not agreed to, then I won't make that agreement. My understanding is that's not an effort you are going to make. MR. MORFORD: Correct. What I will do is object as we normally do in the course of a deposition, and Mr. Dowson can then answer your question or not, Page 8 1 Plaintiffs' Description Marked 2 3 20 National Safety Council Transactions, 266 1966 4 21 1957 Transaction Guide 267 22 December 1945 Southern Power and 271 5 Industry 23 November 1946 Southern Power and 274 6 Industry 24 January 1946, Southern Power and 274 7 Industry 25 NEII Asbestos Safety 299 8 26 NEII Asbestos Safety 299 27 NEII Membership Lists 299 9 28 New Yok Times Article 301 29 Wall Street Journal Article 303 10 30 Syracuse Herald Article 305 31 Salamanca Republican - Press Article 308 11 32 The Sunday Record Article 312 33 Short Reports Article 12 34 Raybestos Material Safety Date Sheet 319 35 Mechanical Engineering Article 319 13 April 1933 36 Sampling Forms 321 14 37 Memorandum, 1938 334 38 October 26, 1983 Letter, From Roehm 335 15 39 SOMA Article 344 40 Notice for Deposition 346 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 depending on what we all work out. 2 MS. DEAN: Finally there are confidential 3 documents -- let me restate. There are documents 4 that have been marked as confidential, plaintiffs do 5 not agree, in fact, we disagree that the vast 6 majority of them are. For the purpose of this 7 deposition, how do you propose they be used? 8 MR. MORFORD: They've obviously not been -- the 9 stipulation of confidentiality has obviously not been 10 circulated to all defense counsel. 11 I would assume all defense counsel can agree on 12 the record now that they will sign a stipulation of 13 confidentiality, as I believe you've agreed to sign 14 it, if you haven't already signed it. Did you 15 already sign it? 16 MS. DEAN: I agreed to abide by the court order 17 for confidential documents, is my understanding. 18 However, depending on the implications of that 19 agreement, there's just some of these documents that 20 I just don't understand why they'd be confidential. 21 We may be able to have that discussion. 22 MR. MORFORD: Exactly. Let me make this 23 suggestion: If all the attorneys present can agree 24 to the confidentiality of the documents marked 25 "confidential" unless and until they're deemed to not 2 (Pages 5 to 8) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 9 Page 11 1 actually be appropriately marked "confidential," and 1 Q And you promised today that you are going to 2 at which one point we can mark them as exhibits and a 2 tell the truth and the whole truth; is that fair? 3 sealed portion of the record and so forth. But you 3 A Yes. 4 can use the documents today. 4 Q And you're kind of in a unique position today in 5 Other people obviously are going to see them 5 that we didn't ask to depose Mr. Dowson, we asked to 6 today. And assuming everyone will agree to stipulate 6 depose Otis Elevator; is that fair? 7 to their confidentiality, unless and until we either 7 A Okay. 8 agree or somehow we determine that something's not 8 Q Let's put it this way: Do you understand that 9 confidential, I think we can then proceed today 9 today that you're speaking on behalf of Otis as their 10 without a problem as to -- 10 corporate representative? 11 MS. DEAN: I think that makes good sense. 11 A Yes, I understand that. 12 MR. MORFORD: -- confidentiality in the future? 12 Q In other words, when we wanted to figure out 13 MS. DEAN: Is there any disagreement with that? 13 what Otis knew and what they didn't, I sent a list of 14 Hearing none -- 14 topics that I wanted to figure out to your lawyer, and 15 MR. MORFORD: Yeah, let's do this. If anyone is 15 they got to pick the person they thought was the most 16 refusing to abide by the confidentiality of any 16 knowledgeable to talk to me about that; is that fair? 17 document used today that's marked "confidential," 17 A That's fair. 18 please so state on the record now. Otherwise, you're 18 Q And you understand that you're that person? 19 silence will be deemed to be an acceptance of their 19 A I am. 20 confidentiality unless and until that 20 Q And you've been in this role before to speak on 21 "confidentiality" mark is lifted; okay? 21 behalf of Otis several other times? 22 Great. Everyone's silent. 22 A Yes, I have. 23 MS. DEAN: I am good to go. 24 * * * * * 23 Q Can you estimate for me how many times that 24 you've done depositions acting on behalf of Otis Elevator? 25 25 A Three other times. Page 10 Page 12 1 PROCEEDINGS 1 Q Okay. Do you remember the names of the cases? 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The date is September 26th, 2 A No, I do not. 3 2007. This is the deposition of Patrick Dowson, 3 Q If you did, I'd be impressed. Have you given a 4 corporate representative, being taken in the matter 4 deposition in any other capacity, either for yourself or 5 of Engle versus 3M Corporation, et al. 5 any other case? 6 The time is 10:15 a.m., and we are on the 6 A One other case in a civil suit for Otis Elevator 7 record. 7 Company. 8 Will the court reporter please swear in the 8 Q Okay. How many of the four depositions that 9 witness? 9 you've been involved in before today involve claims 10 PATRICK DOWSON 10 relating to asbestos? 11 the witness herein, being first duly sworn on his oath, was 11 A Three. 12 examined and testified as follows: 12 Q Okay. I may throughout the day reference some 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 13 of the depositions that I've been able to find that you've 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 done in the past. I found two of I think three of them, 15 BY MS. DEAN: 15 I've given a copy of those to your attorney. 16 Q Mr. Dowson, hi. My name is Jessica Dean. I'm 16 My hope is that I won't have to reask you all 17 an attorney for the plaintiffs, Glen and Leslie Engle, and 17 those questions you've already been asked, for the most 18 I'm going to be asking you some questions today; is that 18 part, but I have to make sometimes sure that we're on the 19 okay? 19 same page. That's why I've given you a copy of those to 20 A Yes. 20 make reference to; okay? 21 Q And although we're in a hotel room, you 21 A Yes. Thank you. 22 understand that the oath that you just took has the same 22 Q If I ask a question that just doesn't make good 23 import as if you were sitting in front of a judge or a 23 sense, either to you or just because I sometimes ask 24 jury of your peers; is that true? 24 questions that don't make good sense, can you let me know? 25 A Yes. 25 Because here today may be the only chance that I have to 3 (Pages 9 to 12) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 13 Page 15 1 fix it and make sure we're on the same page. 1 Q Okay. And you spent a little over 40 years 2 A Sure. If it doesn't make good sense, I'll tell 2 before you retired from Otis Elevators; correct? 3 you or I'll try and explain what I think your question is 3 A I'm sorry, repeat that. 4 and get you to confirm. 4 Q Sure. You've spent about 40 years working for 5 Q Okay. That will help a lot. 5 Otis Elevators before you retired; correct? 6 Now, my understanding is at least three years 6 A Four years in which capacity? 7 ago your position was the environmental health and safety 7 Q Forty. 8 program director; is that correct? 8 MR. MORFORD: Forty. 9 A Yes, it was. 9 A Forty, I'm sorry, I missed the four. Yes, it 10 Q Are you still in that position? 10 was 38-and-a-half years. 11 A No, I am not. I am currently retired from 11 Q Okay. Would you say that you're a loyal 12 Otis Elevator Company. 12 employee to Otis Elevators? 13 Q Okay. When did you retire? 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 A In July 2004. 14 A I would say I'm a loyal employee to 15 Q Okay. So you've had a few years of peace. 15 Otis Elevator. 16 A I've had a few years of peace. 16 Q And, just briefly, what I've understood in 17 Q Before that -- actually, instead of going 17 reading through previous depositions is that you not only 18 backwards, I'm going to try to start from the beginning 18 graduated from high school but went on to get an 19 when you started at Otis Elevators and go through some of 19 associate's degree? 20 the jobs you've had; okay? 20 A Correct. 21 A Uh-hum. 21 Q And that's in electronics? 22 Q First of all, is Otis Elevator the only elevator 22 A Correct. 23 company that you've worked for? 23 Q And that was obtained in 1965 from Radio College 24 A Yes, it is. 24 of Canada in Toronto? 25 Q Okay. And my understanding is that you started 25 A That's true. Page 14 Page 16 1 off there kind of in a helper position, helping elevator 1 Q Have you gotten any other education, formal 2 mechanics? 2 education, since then? 3 A Yes, I did. 3 A I had a lot of -- whether you call it formal, I 4 Q Okay. And then you became an elevator mechanic? 4 would call it formal, I guess -- education and training 5 A Yes, I did. 5 through Otis and United Technologies as I've worked for 6 Q And then you became a construction 6 the corporation, especially in the safety department. 7 superintendent? 7 But throughout the years, Otis and United 8 A That's correct. 8 Technologies hired outside firms to do training for the 9 Q And then a field's operation manager? 9 company. So, I participated in numerous training programs 10 A Yes. 10 throughout those years. 11 Q Then a safety manager? 11 Q Okay. Outside of on-the-job training that you 12 A Yes. 12 received through Otis or someone hired on Otis's behalf, 13 Q And then a safety director for North America? 13 have you had any formal education and training? 14 A Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q And then you've continued in the position of 15 Q I want to get an idea of what you've done to 16 safety director but it was for Southeast Europe? 16 prepare for today, for having a lawyer ask you a bunch of 17 A Yes. 17 questions. Have you read any documents in preparation for 18 Q Okay. 18 this deposition today? 19 A And then I came back to North America. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And is the safety director position the 20 Q Okay. Did you bring those with you? 21 same as the environmental health and safety program 21 A No, I didn't. 22 director or are those different positions? 22 Q Can you tell me first in terms ofjust size or 23 A It's the same position. 23 quantity how many documents you reviewed? 24 Q Okay. Just a fancier title? 24 MR. MORFORD: If it'll, Jessica, just so you 25 A A different title. 25 know, I've provided him everything that we provided 4 (Pages 13 to 16) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 17 Page 19 1 you, just so you know. Maybe I can help this 1 attorney gave you and talking to your attorney, did you do 2 section. 2 anything to talk to anyone at Otis or involved with the 3 MS. DEAN: Okay. 3 elevator industry to prepare for today's deposition? 4 MR. MORFORD: Whether he read it or not, you can 4 A No, I did not. 5 ask him. That's what I provided. 5 Q Did you have a chance to look at Mr. Engle's 6 Q Well, let's start off with the quantity of 6 deposition? 7 documents that you have and then we'll go with whether you 7 A Yes, I did. 8 actually looked at all of them. Do you have an 8 Q He had to take three volumes worth of 9 approximation? 9 depositions over the course of three days, lasted a little 10 MR. MORFORD: You can show. 10 bit over 15 hours; did you get all three of those? 11 A Yeah, that's what I was thinking of doing. 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q For the benefit of the video. 12 Q Did you have a chance to read all three of 13 A A 12-, maybe eight inches of papers. 13 those? 14 Q Did you have the opportunity to look through 14 A I glanced through all of them. 15 those? 15 Q Okay. Mr. Engle is on the phone with us today. 16 A I did glance through everything that was sent to 16 He wasn't able to come in person, so I don't have a face 17 me. 17 to show you, but do you know Glen? 18 Q And the source of all of those documents came 18 A I don't know Glen. 19 from an attorney that works for Otis Elevators; correct? 19 Q Okay. And do you know his wife Leslie? 20 A That's correct. 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Did you do anything yourself to figure out what 21 Q Do you believe that you're qualified to talk on 22 documents might be relevant to today's deposition? 22 behalf of Otis in relation to how the elevators work and 23 A No, I did not. 23 what asbestos was in them? 24 Q Okay. Other than reviewing those documents, did 24 A Yes. 25 you meet with any -- anyone, in relation to preparation 25 Q And do you believe it was your hands-on Page 18 Page 20 1 for this deposition? 1 experience in the field working on the elevator that best 2 A No, I did not. Well, I met with my attorney. 2 prepares you to talk about those things? 3 Q Okay. 3 A No. I think my overall experience over 38 years 4 A No one other than my attorney. 4 prepares me the best. 5 Q And you pointed -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A To Joe Morford. 6 A So I got the best of both worlds. I worked in 7 Q -- to your left, to the attorney, okay. How 7 the field, I managed people in the field, and also worked 8 many meetings did you have with Joe? 8 on a safety program to make them safe in the workplace. 9 A Two. 9 Q And if someone has -- was fortunate enough to 10 Q Okay. When were those? 10 have the length of experience that you've had and that 11 A Yesterday and about a month ago, I don't know 11 same type of experience where they've had hands-on field 12 the exact date but about a month prior to yesterday. 12 work, they were managing employees, and they were involved 13 Q Okay. How long was the meeting that happened 13 with the safety of the elevators, that's the kind of 14 about a month ago? 14 experience you need to be able to talk about how well the 15 A About four hours. 15 elevators worked historically and what type of asbestos 16 Q And what about the meeting yesterday? 16 products you'd expect to see; is that fair? 17 A About three hours. 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 Q And it's fair to say that each one of these 18 A Well, I think my 38 years gives me a lot of 19 depositions that I've looked at, Mr. Morford was -- your 19 experience in the elevator industry, both in the field 20 attorney, was there; is that fair? 20 working with my hands, in managing people in the field, 21 A Yes. 21 and in corporate so that I understand all facets of the 22 Q And you've had meetings with him prior in order 22 industry and all facets of how Otis Elevator Company 23 to prepare for these kind of depositions; correct? 23 operated. So I think it makes me uniquely qualified to 24 A Yes, I have. 24 answer the questions that you'll have for us today. 25 Q Outside of looking at the documents that the 25 Q And I guess what I'm trying, trying to get out, 5 (Pages 17 to 20) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 21 Page 23 1 is that that combination of experience along with the 1 manufacturer but to the highest bidder, you would disagree 2 length of experience which you've had puts you in a unique 2 with that? 3 position to be able to speak as an expert about how 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 elevators work and the asbestos that's in them? 4 A I would -- the best answer I can give you is 5 A Yes. 5 that in the period from when I started in 1966 until about 6 Q Throughout your course of working on elevators 6 1980, manufacturers, such as Otis, Westinghouse, Houghton, 7 in these capacities, did you have a chance to work on 7 Dover, would install elevators and maintain their own 8 elevators that were not manufactured by Otis? 8 elevators. 9 A Well, the tendency in the industry -- I started 9 There was in the very late '70s, early '80s, a 10 in the industry in 1966. I would say through 1966 througl 1 10 tendency to start moving outside of that window of only 11 1980, it was the tendency of the entire industry to 11 maintaining and working on your own installed base 12 perform their own installation, their own service, and 12 equipment. 13 their own maintenance on their own equipment. 13 So, I would say, in answer to your question, 14 It was only in the '80s, that a lot of 14 that working on competitors' equipment was very unusual if 15 aggressiveness, I guess, occurred in trying to do more 15 you worked for one of the large manufacturers during that 16 work on competitors' equipment. So that's, I think, the 16 era. 17 answer to your question. 17 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 18 MS. DEAN: I object to the nonresponsive 18 Q Are you familiar with Donald Nason. 19 portions. 19 A I didn't hear your question. 20 MR. MORFORD: That means it was a good answer. 20 Q You familiar with Donald Nason, N-A-S-O-N? 21 Q Actually, I was going to comment on that. A lot 21 A I don't believe so. 22 of times you may give useful information but it just 22 Q Would you trust that Otis Elevators, when it 23 wasn't to the question that I asked. It's not meant to 23 hired and picked people to provide expert testimony, would 24 comment on the validness of the information, it just might 24 pick somebody that was qualified about the subjects they 25 be that I just want a limited answer. So I may do that 25 were talking about? Page 22 Page 24 1 throughout. Know that I'm not just being like, "Why are 1 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 2 you doing that?" It has a legal purpose. 2 A Yes. 3 And that particular question was just, in your 3 Q Are you aware that there were companies as early 4 years of experience at Otis, did you have the opportunity 4 as the early '60s that's sole purpose were -- or at least 5 to work on other elevators? 5 one of the primary purposes were to service elevators made 6 A I never worked on any competitor's equipment 6 by Westinghouse, Otis, Houghton, the larger manufacturers 7 until the late '80s. 7 that you just mentioned? 8 Q Okay. 8 A In those early years that you mentioned, I 9 MR. MORFORD: By the way, despite her 9 presume you're talking about -- did you say the 1960s? 10 admonition, give complete answers. So you know, 10 Q Starting with the early 1960s and going 11 you're entitled to do that. 11 throughout the '70s, are you aware that there are 12 Q So you never worked on a Westinghouse elevator 12 companies whose sole purpose was not to install or 13 prior to -- prior to 1980? 13 manufacture elevators, but to service those larger 14 A I never worked on a Westinghouse elevator prior 14 elevator manufacturers such as Westinghouse, Otis, and 15 to 1986. 15 Houghton? 16 Q Is the same true for Houghton? 16 A Throughout that era, I am familiar with the fact 17 A Never did work on a Houghton elevator. 17 that there were a lot of what I would call "mom and pop" 18 Q What about Dover? 18 companies, small independent companies, who would pick up 19 A Never worked on a Dover elevator until 1986 to 19 maintenance on generally equipment that was not in large 20 '89 era. 20 commercial environments. I'm talking about apartment 21 Q What about a Montgomery? 21 buildings, small buildings, and so on. 22 A Never worked on a Montgomery elevator. 22 And there were independent elevator companies 23 Q So if someone gave the testimony that throughout 23 who would service all manufacturers of equipment, or maybe 24 the '60s, '70s and '80s, servicing, maintaining and 24 sometimes focus on one particular manufacturer, because 25 adjusting elevators was a matter of not preference to the 25 the mechanic that ran that independent company happened to 6 (Pages 21 to 24) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 29 Page 31 1 use both the manufacturer of the elevator and other 1 ask you just to look at that for a minute. 2 services although you're contending that it was more 2 I'll mark it as Exhibit 1. 3 regular to use the actual manufacturer? 3 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 was marked for 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 identification.) 5 A Yes, I agree. I say that during that era, '60s 5 Q You can see on the top left-hand corner, it says 6 and '70s, it was very commonplace, I don't know the 6 www.otis.com. That's Otis's website; true? 7 percentage but it was a very high percentage of consumer i 7 A Yes. 8 that selected manufacturer's maintenance. 8 Q There's a paragraph right at the bottom of the 9 Q And you've never worked in the Minnesota area; 9 first page of this document that I want to look at, and 10 correct? 10 ask you first if it's true; that's an accurate statement? 11 A Well, "never" is a big word. I have been in 11 MR. MORFORD: You mean what's on the screen 12 Minnesota, Minneapolis on business for Otis as a safety 12 here? 13 professional, I never was based in Minnesota. 13 A Otis Elevator Company is a wholly-owned 14 Q Okay. And so this would have been during the 14 subsidiary of United Technologies Corporation? That's 15 time period that you were in a safety position? 15 true. 16 A That's correct. 16 Q Is the entire paragraph correct? 17 Q So it would have been at least in the '80s, if 17 A Well, to the best of my knowledge, it's correct. 18 not later; correct? 18 Knowing the ethics of this company, I don't think that 19 A Correct. 19 they would state anything that's not true. 20 Q Otis was incorporated in 1853; is that right? 20 Q And one of the things that it tells you is that 21 A Yes, that's right. 21 Otis Elevators is the world's largest manufacturer, 22 Q Long time ago. 22 installer, and maintainer of the elevators, escalators, 23 MR. MORFORD: That's good. I wasn't sure you'd 23 moving walkways and other people moving systems; is that 24 know the answer to that. 24 right? 25 Q And when they first were incorporated, their 25 A That's what it states, yes. Page 30 Page 32 1 home base was Yonkers, New York? 1 Q Which with is claiming that it's not only the 2 A Yes, it was. 2 world's largest elevator manufacturer, but they also 3 Q And then they moved to Farmingham -- or 3 install more elevators and work on maintenance on more 4 Farmington, Connecticut? 4 elevators than any other elevator manufacturer in the 5 A Yes. 5 world; is that fair? 6 Q When did that happen? 6 MR. MORFORD: That's not what it says. It says 7 A I don't know the exact date, but I think it was 7 what it says. I tell you what, we'll stipulate that 8 around the late '70s. I'm going to say the '78 era. 8 the document says what it says. 9 Q Do you know if Otis Steel is part of 9 It says they're the word's largest manufacturer, 10 Otis Elevator, the company that you worked for? 11 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 10 installer, and maintainer of elevators. It doesn't 11 necessarily say that they're the largest 12 A Are you saying a company called Otis Steel? 12 manufacturer, separate and distinct from the other 13 Q If I see a reference in the documents to 13 items, installer and maintainer are separate and 14 Otis Steel, I'm wondering if you know if that's a 14 distinct from manufacturer. 15 subsection of Otis. 15 I will agree that the website says what it says. 16 A I do not know it as a subsection of Otis. 16 We will all agree to that. 17 Q So you've never heard of Otis Steel? 17 MS. DEAN: Respectfully, I wasn't asking for 18 A No, I haven't. 18 your agreement. And what I'm going to do throughout 19 Q What about Otis Engineering Corporation? 19 the whole deposition is look at documents, and then 20 A I've heard of Otis Engineering, I know it's not 20 if they make me think of things, then I'll ask 21 a part of Otis Elevator. 21 subsequent questions based on those. And if they're 22 Q Does it have any affiliation to Otis? 22 right, let me know, if they're wrong, let me know. 23 A No. 23 That's why I'm asking. 24 Q With the benefit of the World Wide Web, I had to 24 I would also respectfully ask that the witness 25 look, and I looked on Otis Elevator's website. I want to 25 not be coached. 8 (Pages 29 to 32) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 33 Page 35 1 Q The second page of this is the next thing I -- 1 profits, loss, the financial statements of Otis at any 2 well, I'm going to get back to the second page. I want to 2 point in time; is that fair? 3 show you a different page of the actual website, and I've 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 marked that page as Exhibit 2. 4 A I do not recall that data. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 was marked for 5 Q Okay. And you don't have anything here with you 6 identification.) 6 to help you recall that? 7 And on the bottom of that, you can see that it's 7 A No, I do not. 8 www.otis.com, and then it gives the rest of the http: 8 Q And that's not something you investigated or 9 address. That's an Otis website; correct? 9 researched prior to coming here today to talk to me? 10 A Yes. 10 A No, it is not. 11 Q And I just want to make sure that the 11 Q We kind ofjumped past one of my questions, it 12 information on this is correct. It indicates that even in 12 was on the installation base section of this Otis website. 13 2004, the last year that you were working for 13 It says: "More than 1.7 million Otis elevators 14 Otis Elevators, that Otis made $9 billion in revenues; is 14 are in operation throughout the world." 15 that correct? 15 Do you know if that's correct? 16 A Where does it say that? 16 A It states it, I believe it to be correct. 17 Q There's -- 17 Q Okay. And then it also talks about, as opposed 18 A Oh, yes. Okay. Revenues $9 billion, all right. 18 to who's putting in the elevator, who's servicing the 19 Q But we're on the same page, that's correct? 19 elevator, in the very last section; is that true? 20 A Yes. 20 A Could you -- 21 Q It also indicated that in terms of installation 21 Q In other words -- 22 of their elevators, there are more than 1.7 million 22 A -- point that out? 23 Otis elevators, and it also talks about the number of 23 Q Service. 24 escalators throughout the world? 24 A Oh, service base. I'm sorry, I wasn't looking 25 First of all, is that what it says? 25 at the headings. Right. Correct. Page 34 Page 36 1 A Yes. I just want to restate that the revenues 2 are sales, that's not profit; okay? 1 Q And it indicates that there are 1.45 million 2 elevators that are being serviced by Otis worldwide; 3 Q Got it. There's a big difference. 3 correct? 4 A There's a huge difference. 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 Q Okay. You don't know, and I'm going to talk to 6 you about this in more detail, but you don't know the 7 profits that Otis made at any time, do you, for any year? 5 A Yes. That's what it states. 6 Q Last thing for a while on the website, returning 7 back to Exhibit 1, the second page. I'm looking at the 8 A No, I do not. 8 Sharing Strengths; do you see that? 9 Q So that's something that I, at least today, in 9 A Yes, I do. 10 terms learning about Otis Elevator, cannot do while I talk 10 Q Is the paragraph under the Sharing Strengths 11 to you; is that fair? I can't learn about that because 11 portion of Otis' website correct, in your opinion? 12 you don't know anything about it? 12 MR. MORFORD: Objection. This is not part of 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. We've told you that 13 the notice. I'd like to know what point in your 14 the financial statements are contained on the UTC 14 notice this question is directed to, please. What 15 website, so you can get Otis information there. 15 number? 16 Mr. Dowson can read the documents just as easily as 16 MS. DEAN: I don't think that's necessary. If 17 you can or vice versa. So, I mean, you've known 17 you want to instruct him not to answer, you can, but 18 about this objection to the network-type questions. 18 I also think the words "product testing" are in there 19 MS. DEAN: I'll just state for the record that I 20 got an e-mail this morning stating that, and that 19 and the words "product testing" are in the notice. 20 MR. MORFORD: Where is that? Can I see it, 21 that's not very useful; that it is my understanding, 21 please? 22 correct me if I'm wrong, that none of those documents 22 MS. DEAN: You didn't bring a copy of the 23 are here. 24 Q And, Mr. Dowson, I'll just go back to my 23 notice? 24 MR. MORFORD: I'm asking you what number. If 25 question. You're not able to talk to me about the 25 you tell me what number, I'll let him answer the 9 (Pages 33 to 36) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 37 Page 39 1 question if it applies to the number; if not I'll 1 Q What about the statement that says that: "Otis 2 decide how to proceed. I'm asking you, what number 2 has remarkable resources and engineering product testing, 3 in your notice this question applies to? 3 purchasing, marketing and information systems." Do you 4 MS. DEAN: Eleven. 4 believe that that's true? 5 MR. MORFORD: Can I see it, please? 5 A It says: "Sharing strengths with UTC allows 6 MS. DEAN: No. 6 Otis to draw on remarkable resources in engineering, 7 MR. MORFORD: Can you read to me then so I can 7 product testing, purchasing, marketing, information 8 see whether it applies or not. 8 systems." 9 MS. DEAN: No. It's a legitimate question. 9 Which is referring to the fact that because 10 It's a basic question about his website. 10 there are multiple divisions in United Technologies after 11 If you're going to instruct him not to answer, 11 1978, I believe, Otis could acquire those extra services 12 we'll come back here and do this another day after 12 and extra engineering product testing and take advantage 13 the judge -- 13 of them. 14 MR. MORFORD: Wait a second. 14 Q And the idea that Otis has remarkable resources 15 MS. DEAN: I'm not going to go through every 15 to do product testing is something you believe to be true? 16 question and justify what number it went under. You 16 A Yes. 17 have that. 17 Q In fact, they've been advertising that for 18 MR. MORFORD: I've never asked you to do it for 18 decades; do you know that to be true? 19 every question, I haven't asked you yet. I've asked 19 A No, I don't. 20 you with respect to one question. 20 Q We'll get to that later. It's fair to say that 21 Are you telling me you won't tell me what the 21 Otis Elevators has sold elevators in the State of 22 notice says that you believe this question applies 22 Minnesota for decades? 23 to? 23 A Yes, I believe that to be true. 24 MS. DEAN: This has been provided to 24 Q And through the entirety of the last century? 25 Otis Elevators on six different occasions since June. 25 A I don't know when they entered Minnesota, but I Page 38 Page 40 1 MR. MORFORD: Well, and I have mine over there 1 think in general your answer or your question is accurate. 2 in the briefcase, I just think that -- 2 Q Certainly throughout the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s 3 MS. DEAN: Would you like me to read it to you? 3 and '90s? 4 MR. MORFORD: Yes, I would, please. 4 A Yes. 5 MS. DEAN: "Any tests, studies, precautions, 5 Q And they have an office in Minnesota? 6 dust level counts or actions taken by defendant or 6 A Yes. 7 was hired by defendant to determine the amount of 7 Q And they've done testing on asbestos levels in 8 asbestos released when working with or around 8 the State of Minnesota? 9 defendant's elevators, products, equipment or any 9 A Yes. 10 component part of defendant's elevators;" semicolon. 10 Q And they've advertised in the State of 11 MR. MORFORD: Did you get that? 11 Minnesota? 12 MS. DEAN: If you'd like to see it, it's written 12 A I don't know what advertising they're done in 13 down, it has been since June. 13 the State of Minnesota. 14 MR. MORFORD: You can go ahead and answer the 14 Q Do you think or do you know whether advertising 15 question. 15 has happened, first in national publications that would 16 Q Do you remember what the question was? 16 reach Minnesota, by Minnesota? 17 A No. Could you repeat the question, please? 17 A No, I don't. 18 Q Is the information on Otis's website under 18 Q Do you know who could talk to me about that? 19 Sharing Strengths; correct? 19 A I'm sorry, I don't. 20 A It's definitely correct since UTC bought Otis, 20 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 which was in the late '80s -- or, I'm sorry, in the late 21 A I don't know who could answer that question 22 '70s, so this statement then would have become true; not 22 accurately. 23 since I worked for Otis Elevator Company; but, in the lat 23 Q Does Otis have an advertising department? 24 '70s, when United Technologies purchased Otis, this 24 A Not that I'm aware of. They have a marketing 25 statement would have become correct. 25 department. 10 (Pages 37 to 40) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 41 Page 43 1 Q Okay. I think that might take care of what I 1 Q And the same is true for some of the electrical 2 want. 2 wiring used in elevators sold by Otis? 3 A But I think it's fair to say that the way this 3 A There was a limited amount of electrical wiring 4 industry, the way Otis Elevator worked in this industry, 4 that did contain asbestos. 5 that there was no advertising done by local offices and 5 Q And there are also arc shields or blow-out coils 6 very little done by the corporate office. Your marketing 6 that had asbestos-containing -- that were 7 really is direct marketing through architects and building 7 asbestos-containing that were used and sold in Otis 8 owners. 8 elevators; is that true? 9 Q Do you know that to be true for any time period? 9 A That is also true for a period of time. 10 I mean, are you assuming that? 10 Q And it's true that during the '30s, '40s and 11 A I know that to be true for my history of the 11 '50s that you would agree that it is more than likely 12 company. 12 those components not only contained asbestos but that an 13 Q What about before that? 13 elevator mechanic would be near or working with them? 14 A No, I don't know. 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 Q Do you know how big the marketing department is 15 A The mechanic would be near those products, but 16 at Otis? 16 my experience and my evidence dictates that there were no 17 A No, I don't. 17 asbestos exposures, harmful asbestos exposures, from thos 18 Q Do you know whether, when they market something 18 products. 19 for Otis or advertise something for Otis, who would be the 19 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 20 person that would look at that, make sure it went in the 20 portion, but we'll be talking about that. 21 correct position -- not position, the correct paper on the 21 A Okay. 22 right page, had the right format? Do you know who would 22 Q Let me break it down to, first, would you agree 23 be involved in that process at all? 23 with me that in the '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s and '70s, that 24 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Could you clarify 24 the lining, wiring and arc shields were asbestos 25 when? 25 components that you could find in Otis elevators being Page 42 Page 44 1 Q At any point in time, then we'll narrow it down. 1 worked on? 2 Because if you don't know, then we can -- 2 A I think we should take them one at a time. 3 A Well, in my experience in corporate 3 Q Okay. 4 headquarters, that type of brochure that would be created 4 A I think the brake linings in the MSDSs that I 5 for a product that Otis was selling would be created 5 remember contained about 45 to 55 percent asbestos type 6 entirely by that marketing department, probably reviewed 6 known as chrysotile, I believe it is; and the wiring was 7 by field operations and other departments to make sure 7 limited only to heavy wiring that went through to the 8 that it was accurate. But I would say primarily the 8 machine's inner connections, I guess you would say 9 responsibility of the brochure about a product would be 9 factory-installed wiring was asbestos-containing in some 10 the marketing department, with input from other department 10 of the components, not the field wiring. 11 heads. 11 And the blow-out coils and the arc shields 12 Q So if I'm understanding you right, if they're 12 were -- had some percentage of asbestos in them, I don't 13 going to put advertising in somewhere, they're going to 13 recall the exact percent, but they again were very hard 14 use the resources of other employees to make sure it's 14 components installed to prevent flashes from one contact 15 accurate, but it's the marketing department that would 15 to another. 16 look at it to make sure it is correct, make sure it got 16 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 17 put in the correct place, things like that; is that fair? 17 Q I'm going to talk about all those things, I just 18 A Yes, that's fair. 18 want to get dates first. 19 Q I want to talk to you, probably for quite a bit, 19 You would also agree that there was a 20 about the different types of asbestos components that were 20 rectangular tube with asbestos that was put in Otis 21 put in Otis elevators. From looking at the previous 21 elevator doors; correct? 22 testimony, you would agree that brake linings were 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Did you say tube? 23 asbestos-containing in Otis elevators; is that fair? 23 MS. DEAN: Yes. A rectangular tube with 24 A There was a period of time, yes, when brake 24 asbestos in elevator doors that were sold and 25 linings contained asbestos. 25 manufactured by Otis. 11 (Pages 41 to 44] Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 45 Page 47 1 A That is not my recollection. 1 A Okay. 2 Q Okay. Do you recall giving a deposition taken 2 Q And one of the things that you were asked after 3 on May 23rd, 2006 in the Dalquist case? 3 you identified the wires, the arc shields, the asbestos 4 A If you have a record of that, then I 4 door material and the brake linings, is if those were 5 definitely -- but I don't remember the date, sorry, 5 components that would be in elevators during the '30s, 6 Jessica. 6 '40s and '50s. And is it correct to say that yes, that's 7 Q And I wouldn't expect you to. I have a copy of 7 true, you would find those components in elevators during 8 that that I've given your attorney, and I'll also put it 8 those time frames? 9 up here so you can look at it. 9 A Not in all elevators but in many elevators, yes. 10 A That's going to talk about doors and that? 10 Q Same is also true -- 11 Q Yes. And during any deposition you take, you 11 A Depending on the fire codes that were required 12 had to -- you were sworn to tell the truth and given an 12 for that particular building. 13 oath just like you were today; correct? 13 Q And the fire codes would influence, in your 14 A Correct. 14 opinion, just the asbestos that would be in the doors, 15 Q And 2006 would clearly be closer in time to the 15 that wouldn't have relevance to the other products that we 16 time you were working on elevators than it would be today; 16 just mentioned; is that fair? 17 is that fair? 17 A That's fair. 18 A No. Fair enough. 18 Q Is it also true that you would -- that an 19 Q Okay. And one of the questions that were asked 19 elevator mechanic working Otis elevators during the 1960s 20 you on page 16 of that deposition, see if I can get it out 20 would come -- would likely come across asbestos wiring, 21 here: 21 arc shields, brakes and doors? 22 "As you can state for the record what asbestos 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 23 components -- " 23 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Object to the form. 24 "And can you state for the record --" 24 MR. MORFORD: What do you mean by come across? 25 MR. MORFORD: She's showing it up here, this may 25 Q That they would be there. I'm going to talk Page 46 Page 48 1 help if you can read it. That is really small print 1 about how they were worked on later, but the idea that 2 for you. 2 those components would be in Otis elevators in the '60s is 3 Q "And can you state for the record what were the 3 something you would agree to? 4 asbestos components -- " I'm going to start all over 4 A Yes. 5 again. 5 Q Okay. And that's also true for the '70s? 6 "And can you state for the record what the 6 A Correct. 7 asbestos components of the Otis Elevators were?" 7 Q And that's also true for the '80s? 8 And you began to answer and you talk about 8 A No, it's not. 9 wiring and arc shields and brake linings, but the 9 Q It was in the '80s that at least for some of 10 description I got on doors is found on page 17, line 16 10 these asbestos components that they were actively taken 11 through 18. 11 out; is that fair? 12 And it says: "So it was like a tube, a 12 A We know that at Otis Elevator Company that all 13 rectangular tube, with asbestos contained inside 13 asbestos was removed from all products by the early '80s 14 that door?" 14 And I think it's early to late '80s by the time they got 15 A Oh, okay. I understand now your confusion, 15 it out of all of the brake linings. By the early '80s, I 16 Jessica. 16 think it was out of most products, but it was the brake 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 linings, I think, were the last to go, which probably 18 Q First, did I read that correctly? 18 occurred in the late '80s. 19 A You read it correctly but you're misinterpreting 19 Q Okay. And just to make sure we're on the same 20 my words, maybe my words aren't perfectly clear. But th ! 20 page, I'm going to hand you some discovery responses that 21 door is actually like a tube, a metal tube, a square metal 21 were given to me by Otis lawyers in this case. 22 tube; and inside that square metal tube, a portion of that 22 And for people that don't do this for a living, 23 door is covered with an asbestos board or there's an 23 discovery responses are called interrogatories and 24 asbestos board inside that tube, metal tube. 24 requests for production, which are just fancy terms for, 25 Q Okay. I think, I think we're on the same page. 25 "I'm going to ask you some questions and ask you for some 12 (Pages 45 to 48) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 49 Page 51 1 documents," and then the other party gets a chance to 1 A That's correct. Because there's no need to, 2 respond to that. Is that your understanding of what's 2 because the exposure is so minor that it's not necessary. 3 happening? 3 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 4 A Yeah. 4 Q I promise we'll get to that. 5 Q Okay. And one of the questions, if you look on 5 Okay. Are there any other asbestos components 6 page five, it's called interrogatory number four. And the 6 in Otis elevators other than the ones that we've just 7 question asked to describe in detail all 7 talked about? 8 asbestos-containing products, mined, milled, manufactured, 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 9 sold or distributed by you, including the name of the 9 A Not that I'm aware of. 10 company, the name of the product, the precise composition 10 Q There are a few that -- 11 of the product, and the period of manufacture of the 11 A I mean, I'm thinking about your question. It's 12 product; correct? 12 possible from time to time that some of the floor tile 13 A Yes. 13 that was installed in elevators may have contained 14 Q Now, if you go to the very last sentence in the 14 asbestos. That's the only other thing I can think of. 15 lengthy response from Otis, it indicates that even in the 15 Q Okay. And I talked to Mr. Engle or Glen about 16 1990s asbestos-containing components were used in its 16 this and want to see if you agree with his recollection on 17 elevators; isn't that true? 17 some other components. Do you know during what time 18 A Repeat your question, please. 18 period Otis would have used asbestos-containing floor 19 Q Otis's verified response to this question, the 19 tiles? 20 very last sentence, indicates that Otis continued to use 20 A My recollection is, is that Otis got out of the 21 asbestos-containing components in its elevators as late as 21 flooring business in the very early '70s, I'd say by 1972 22 1993. 22 Otis did not install floors in elevators unless there was 23 A Was phased out between 1985 and 1993; correct. 23 a very unusual exception where they had no choice. 24 Q And the way I understand that is they started 24 Q What about repair? 25 this process in the '80s but there was still asbestos 25 A Even in repair, that was true. Page 50 Page 52 1 components in the Otis elevators sold in the '90s; is that 1 Q Do you have any documents that indicate that 2 true? 2 that is what happened in 1972, a decision was made: We're 3 A Mainly the brakes. 3 not using this asbestos in -- 4 Q But that's a true statement? 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 MR. MORFORD: What's that? 5 A I only have my recollection. 6 A What's stated here is true. 6 Q Okay. Have you looked to see if documents 7 Q And to be fair, there's a distinction between 7 exist? 8 Otis selling a product with asbestos and an elevator -- 8 A Yes. 9 working on an elevator that may have been manufactured a 9 Q Okay. What search have you done to determine 10 long time ago; correct? 10 what documents there are about the floor tiles that Otis 11 A I'm not sure I understand, Jessica. Sorry, my 11 used? 12 mind was taken out. 12 A Well, with respect to asbestos, Mr. Morford led 13 Q My mind's gone to the next step. What I'm 13 an extensive search throughout our company in 2002, 2003 14 trying to clarify is, even though Otis stopped selling 14 2004, and I helped him to try and find every document that 15 elevators in 1993 with asbestos in them, today an elevator 15 existed that talked about asbestos, so that's my 16 mechanic could be working on an Otis Elevators that has 16 recollection. 17 asbestos parts because it was put in a while ago, and back 17 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, just to be clear, I think 18 in that time there was asbestos; correct? 18 what he testified to, just so everybody understands, 19 A That's possible, yes. 19 is that Otis got out of installing or repairing any 20 Q And, in fact, that does still happen today, at 20 floors. He didn't say in the early '70s is when 21 least in some of Otis's elevators? 21 there stopped being asbestos, he said "got out of the 22 A Yes. 22 flooring business," period. I just want to make sure 23 Q Otis hasn't gone out into the 1.7 million 23 it's clear. 24 elevators they have and removed every asbestos product 24 The reason we haven't found any documents on 25 that's in them? 25 floors was they got out of the flooring business so 13 (Pages 49 to 52) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 53 Page 55 1 long ago there are no documents on floors. We have 1 documents or talking to anybody about it? 2 searched. I'mjust trying to help you understand. 2 A No. I saw some reference in Mr. Engle's 3 Q Have you done any kind of review of the 3 testimony about gaskets, but I don't recall any interna 4 documents about floor tiles independent at an attorney's 4 discussions at Otis about those similar situations. 5 direction by Otis Elevators? 5 Q The last product I want to talk to you about is 6 A No, I have not. 6 the transom. Are you familiar with transoms? 7 Q Can you explain to me what search you did in 7 A Well, the transom that I would be familiar with 8 order to evaluate information about the floor tiles, 8 would be an extension above a door. 9 whether it be the type of floor tile used, when it was 9 Q And my understanding is that sometimes if you 10 used, the brand names of the floor tile, the methods for 10 have a typical eight-foot elevator door, the architect 11 your elevator mechanics to install floor tile? 11 will design a building where there is an additional space 12 A Difficult question to answer there. Because 12 before you get to the ceiling and a transom would be put 13 Otis basically abdicated the floor business back in the 13 in that space? 14 early '70s, there were no documents that we could find 14 A That would typically occur in a lobby level 15 related to flooring. 15 where there's a high floor. 16 Q And I guess I just want to get an idea of where 16 Q Okay. And is it -- is it true that in those 17 you looked. 17 transoms, just like in the door, you had a UL rating; and, 18 A Hum. In the safety department, we have a wealth 18 therefore, if the door was going to have asbestos inside 19 of documentation of information. We looked through that 19 it, so would the transom? 20 And Mr. Morford also led a search in the Otis service 20 A It's entirely possible that that occurred. I do 21 center for documents related to asbestos, which would hav e 21 not recall that being a fact. 22 been flooring also; so, I mean, we looked where we though 22 Q Okay. Again is that something that you've 23 we would find information related to asbestos. 23 investigated in terms of either talking to people or 24 Q Is there any other particular location that you 24 looking at documents? 25 can think of other than the service center and the safety 25 A My recollection and my experience since 1966 Page 54 Page 56 1 department? 1 indicates that I never saw anything, any -- any asbestos 2 A No, I cannot. 2 or asbestos products in a transom at Otis Elevator 3 Q Okay. My understanding is that there were also 3 Company, only in doors. Because typically a transom was 4 in the hydraulic elevators, hydraulic pumps that were 4 only a sheet of metal that extends up, it might be 5 used; is that true? 5 stainless steel or bronze, so it would come off the 6 A There was -- could you restate that, please? 6 leading edge of the door frame and go up; and behind that 7 Q Sure. In hydraulic elevators -- let me back up 7 a cement block or a drywall, sheetrock, plaster assembly 8 one step. Elevators -- Otis Elevators manufactured both 8 would go in and provide a fire rating. There was no need 9 traction and hydraulic elevators; is that true? 9 for a fire rating on the transom itself. 10 A Yes. 10 MS. DEAN: Okay. I'm being told that we need to 11 Q And those would have been manufactured and sold 11 switch tapes so we're going to just take a short 12 in Minnesota as well as throughout the country? 12 break? 13 A Yes. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:10 a.m., 14 Q And in hydraulic elevators, you have a hydraulic 14 we're off the record. 15 pump that is used as far as the elevator that would be 15 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 16 sold by Otis? 16 record.) 17 A Yes. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:22 a.m., we'ri 18 Q Do you know whether the gaskets and packing that 18 back on the record. 19 are used on the flanges and internal to those pumps were 19 BY MS. DEAN: 20 ever asbestos components? 20 Q Okay. Right before we broke, I think we were 21 A I don't have any idea. 21 talking about transoms. If my understanding is correct, 22 Q Is that something that you've ever investigated? 22 what you're saying is that sometimes either sheetrock or 23 A No, I have not. 23 masonry, CMU, will be used to back the transoms, and 24 Q Okay. And, finally, I think you've answered my 24 therefore you don't need any kind of asbestos insulation; 25 question, but what I mean by investigated is looking at 25 is that fair? 14 (Pages 53 to 56) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 57 Page 59 1 A Yes. 1 transom? 2 Q Are you aware of times when that wasn't used? 2 A No. 3 A No, I'm not. 3 Q Are you aware that that's something that was 4 Q So you've never seen a situation where there was 4 done routinely in order to put in things like the up and 5 nothing backing the transom so that there was the need to 5 down light that would be put above the door? 6 use asbestos insulation? 6 A No. That would be unusual. 7 A No, I'm not aware of that. 7 Q Is it something that you're aware every 8 Q If there wasn't something backing the transom, 8 happened? 9 would you agree with me, because of the NFPA, that that 9 A It did not happen at Otis, because that 10 would be something that would have been added, typically? 10 component would have been made and designed as an integra 11 Because you'd have the same requirement in the hoistway 11 part of that design. In other words, the transom would 12 area. 12 have had an accommodation for that fixture, and the only 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 13 thing that the installer would have done was bolted the 14 A There would be fire rating on the hoistway area. 14 fixture to the back of the transom and connected the wires 15 I find it illogical, by the way, that behind the transom 15 to it. 16 that there wouldn't be a fire-rated wall. I just find it 16 Q So if someone testified or indicated that they 17 illogical from a construction point of view that you would 17 did in fact have to drill holes in order for that fixture 18 put your wall above the transom instead of -- 18 to be placed on the transom, you would disagree? 19 Because the transom, all the transom is is 19 MR. MORFORD: On an Otis product? 20 basically a facing, it's a sheet of metal; and, therefore, 20 A On an Otis product, I would disagree. 21 if it was a void space into the elevator hoistway behind 21 Q Now, my understanding is the asbestos insulation 22 that, would be very unusual. 22 that was used in doors sold by Otis Elevator was placed in 23 Q And in order to evaluate whether in the sheet of 23 there in order to deal with the 1.5 Hour UL Fire Rating; 24 metal, whether it's the transom or the sheet of metal or 24 is that true? 25 it was the door, whether there is asbestos internal to it, 25 A It could have been any fire rating as regulated Page 58 Page 60 1 you would have to actually drill in or somehow open those 1 by that particular municipality. So sometimes it was -- I 2 materials; correct? 2 think 1.5 was typical, but it was not unusual to be less 3 A I don't understand that question. 3 than or more than 1.5. 4 Q I think you've discussed before that when you're 4 Q Throughout the 1960s to date, do you contend 5 looking at these materials, they're metal, and so it's not 5 that the NFPA or any other local standard had something 6 obvious when you're looking at them whether there's 6 lower than a minimum rating of 1.5 for a door? 7 asbestos internal to them; correct? 7 A I do not recall a rating -- well, I can't 8 A That's true. 8 specifically -- I recall ratings of one hour but I don't 9 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 9 recall exactly the specifics of those, it's too far back 10 Q When did you first realize that the doors sold 10 in my memory. I would say 1.5 is the most typical rating 11 by Otis had asbestos internal to them? 11 I just didn't want to say it was the only rating. 12 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 12 Q Okay. And my understanding is that these 13 A When asbestos became an issue, in other words, 13 local -- that there are local building codes, but that 14 when OSHA raised the issue of asbestos as a workplace 14 those cannot -- they can increase standards but they 15 issue, then all elevators including -- all elevator 15 cannot go below what the National Fire Protection Agency 16 companies including Otis started to become aware of thei r 16 or NFPA sets forth; is that fair? 17 products. 17 A That would be my understanding. 18 And when we started doing modernization on the 18 Q And even today the typical or most typical 19 elevators, which really started to occur in the '80s and 19 rating that you see 1.5 Hour UL Fire Rating. 20 '90s, then we had to assess where asbestos might be and 20 A Yes. 21 whether or not it would be a factor. 21 Q So the incentive for using this asbestos 22 So I would probably say, thinking out loud here, 22 insulation has been present for the last 50 years? 23 that we became -- I became aware in the '80s that asbesto s 23 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 24 could be inside the doors. 24 Q At least. 25 Q Have you ever had to drill a hole into a 25 A I would say that the -- all doors are tested, 15 (Pages 57 to 60; Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 61 Page 63 1 all Otis doors were tested by a UL registered laboratory. 1 MR. MORFORD: Objection. He answered your 2 In other words, you couldn'tjust put a stamp on your dooi 2 question. 3 saying that it had a 1.5 Hour Fire Rating. They had to go 3 A I would only be surmising or guessing as to why 4 to an independent testing lab, which was usually a UL 4 they chose to use asbestos in the doors. 5 laboratory. 5 Q I guess my question's a little different though, 6 So, to achieve the 1.5 rating, at some point in 6 and that is, the material that you're using now that has 7 time, probably the time that you're concerned about, '50s 7 no asbestos in it, can you tell me or do I need to talk to 8 and '60s, and maybe early '70s before asbestos was bannec , 8 someone else if that material was something that could 9 Otis and other manufacturers used asbestos inside the 9 have been used for any point in time? 10 doors to help them achieve that fire rating. After 10 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 11 asbestos was banned, they achieved that fire rating 11 Q Other than now, because we know we're using it 12 without asbestos through thickness of doors or other 12 now. 13 possibilities. Am I answering your question? 13 A Given the knowledge of the engineers back in the 14 Q Yes, you just made me think of a few other 14 '50s, they probably could have done the same thing; 15 things. Are you saying in 1972 that Otis Elevators 15 correct. 16 stopped using asbestos in their doors? 16 Q It's not your testimony that the National Fire 17 A No, I'm not saying that. I don't know the exact 17 Protection Agency, their local building codes required 18 date when they stopped using it. 18 asbestos. They didn't tell you how to meet that goal, 19 Q Okay. But you are comfortable, I gather from 19 they just told you, "You have to meet this UL rating;" is 20 your last answer, in saying that at least in the '50s and 20 that fair? 21 '60s and part of the '70s that that was something used to 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 22 achieve that UL rating? 22 A Correct. The companies, the manufacturer of the 23 A I'm comfortable with saying that Otis Elevator 23 doors would have their doors tested, and it would have to 24 Company, that asbestos was used in some of their doors in 24 meet that rating. 25 the '50s and '60s. 25 Q When you say they were tested, they were tested Page 62 Page 64 1 Q What about the '70s? 1 not for asbestos or the content of it but just to see if 2 A I do not know. 2 they passed that rating? 3 Q Have you talked to anybody or looked at 3 A Correct. 4 documents to figure that out? 4 Q Okay. Similar question, the owner of the 5 A No, I have not. 5 buildings, they would -- they would definitely want their 6 Q And my understanding is that today a thin piece 6 elevators to pass that code; correct? That would be a 7 of metal is put inside the door in order to achieve that 7 requirement for you to be able to install their elevators? 8 UL rating; is that true? 8 A It wasn't specifically -- I guess I differ with 9 A That would be true in most cases, or the 9 you on the owners. The owners want a -- want a building 10 thickness of the metal has been increased on the tube 10 that's built in compliance with codes. 11 itself. 11 Architects and engineers design buildings 12 Q Okay. 12 compliant with codes, and the elevator code would require 13 A The structure of the door itself. 13 a special rating on the doors, and the elevator 14 Q But I guess what I'm getting at is that metal 14 manufacturer would be required by law to provide doors 15 that is now inserted in has no asbestos in it? 15 that would meet that fire rating. 16 A Correct. 16 Q And I guess what I'm trying to get at is the 17 Q And that's something that Otis could have used 17 method that you guys provided that to comply with the 18 at any point in time through the last hundred years inside 18 code, that was in your hands, as long as you complied with 19 of their doors to achieve the UR rating? 19 the code? 20 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 20 A Yes. 21 A I don't know that, I'm not an engineer. 21 Q I'm going to hand you an exhibit that I'm going 22 Q You don't feel comfortable saying that that 22 to mark as Plaintiffs Exhibit 4. 23 piece of metal is something that was available to Otis 23 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 was marked for 24 from -- if not a hundred years, from any point in time you 24 identification.) 25 can tell me? 25 I'll let you know this is a document that Otis 16 (Pages 61 to 64) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 65 Page 67 1 gave me. And I want to ask you, I'm going to ask you more 1 several years." 2 about this later, but the reason I bring it up now is 2 If you're going to quote the document or appear 3 because the bottom of page one where it says "area of 3 to the witness that you're going to quote the 4 exposures"? 4 document, at least read it accurately. 5 A Yes, okay. 5 Q I'll admit that I wasn't focusing on the 6 Q And what it says is that, "Elevator and 6 escalator part, but my question remains the same, that, 7 Escalator Installation - Exposure to asbestos in elevator 7 are you claiming that in your reading of this document 8 and escalator installation has been eliminated in the past 8 since 1983, it's talking about in the installation process 9 several years." 9 that eliminated exposure in other product -- other 10 Did I read that right? 10 construction areas, like, joint compound? 11 A Yes. 11 A Exposure to the elevator constructor was -- the 12 Q And this is a document from April 6, 1983? 12 biggest exposure in past history prior to this letter was 13 A Yeah. 13 spray-on insulation done by other trades on a construction 14 Q And it says "Internal Correspondence" from 14 site, not by the elevator components themselves. 15 Otis Elevators? 15 Q And do you know when that -- 16 A Yes. 16 A Because there was very few components that 17 Q Okay. I think you've stated before that the 17 contained asbestos. 18 installation of doors is when you would be doing work on 18 MS. DEAN: I'll object, nonresponsive. 19 doors. That's primarily when an elevator mechanic would 19 Q Do you think a half dozen asbestos components in 20 be dealing with doors; is that fair? 20 a product is very few -- 21 A During installation a mechanic would be 21 A Yes. 22 installing elevator doors; correct. 22 Q -- asbestos components? 23 Q Am I reading this -- would I be reading this 23 A Yes. 24 correctly in that what they're saying here is when you're 24 Q Fireproofing and taping and bedding and joint 25 doing the installing of the doors, you're not going to 25 compound, those were all banned in the 1970s; correct? Page 66 Page 68 1 have exposure to asbestos anymore because it's been 1 Are you aware of that? 2 eliminated? 2 A I'm aware that asbestos was banned from 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 3 construction in the early to mid-'70s. 4 Q Is that what it's referring to or do you know? 4 Q And but your contention that they're referring 5 Let me tell you what my thought is. If you're 5 to those exposures from other construction asbestos use in 6 saying the floor tiles weren't used after '72 or '3, I'm 6 this document in 1983, when they're talking about it being 7 trying to wonder what other products is Otis saying, "Hey, 7 eliminated in the past several years? 8 we eliminated it, so that you won't be exposed to asbestos 8 A I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. 9 during the installation process," if it's not doors? 9 Would you repeat it, please? 10 That's the one that comes to my mind but I want to make 10 Q This is a document in 1983 saying, "We've 11 sure I'm not reading this wrong. 11 eliminated exposure to asbestos in the past several 12 A Well, I think you're off course here. 12 years." 13 Q Okay. 13 And you're going to give the opinion that 14 A Because I think number one refers to the 14 they're referring to exposure from other constructions 15 exposure to the elevator workers from other trades 15 that were eliminated almost ten years earlier? 16 installing asbestos in work sites, it's got nothing to do 16 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 with the elevator components whatsoever. 17 Q That's what you're -- that's what you're 18 Q So when they say that exposure to asbestos in 18 contending this means? 19 elevators has been eliminated in the past several years in 19 A My conjecture is that on construction, the major 20 1983, you're talking about the elimination of asbestos in 20 exposure to asbestos in the past, prior to this time, was 21 other construction fields? 21 exposure from other trades installing asbestos-related 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Be fair with the 22 products in the buildings where elevator constructors were 23 witness, please. That's not what it says. 23 installing elevators. 24 It says: "Exposure to asbestos in elevator and 24 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 25 escalator insulation has been eliminated in the past 25 Q I guess, do you believe that your interpretation 17 (Pages 65 to 68) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 69 Page 71 1 of this document is reasonable? That they're talking 1 things; right? 2 about the elimination of exposure to asbestos, that when 2 A That's true. 3 they say that in the last few years, in the context of the 3 Q The doors we've been talking about, just so 4 document written in 1983, that they're talking about 4 people that don't work with elevators are on the same way, 5 exposures that were eliminated in the early '70s? 5 are the hoistway doors; right? 6 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 6 A The doors that we're talking about that had 7 Q It's the date of the document that gives me that 7 potential for asbestos inside them were the hoistway 8 problem. 8 doors. 9 MR. MORFORD: Is the question, does he believe 9 Q That, in fact, did have asbestos put in by Otis 10 what he's testified to is reasonable? Is that the 10 for years, or at least some of the them; right? 11 question? 11 A Some of the doors, right. 12 Q Given the date of that document and that they 12 Q And a hoistway door is the door that opens on 13 said it's been done in the last several years, and we know 13 each landing on each floor; correct? 14 that asbestos was banned almost ten years earlier, I'm 14 A That's correct. 15 asking you still -- that's why I have an interpretation 15 Q So, if there's a ten-story building with ten 16 problem with the way you're reading it. And I'm saying, 16 elevators, there's going to be a hundred hoistway doors; 17 asking -- 17 correct? 18 A Well, the person that wrote this was not a 18 A Yes. 19 lawyer, and writing with his knowledge of the fact that -- 19 Q And in every one of those doors, for at least in 20 MR. MORFORD: Just answer her question. 20 the '60s and '70s, and you just don't know for the other 21 A -- insulation had been banned in the early to 21 periods, could have had asbestos as internal to those 22 mid-'70s. And I think that's reinforced by statement 22 doors? 23 number two on page number two of the same document where 23 A Right, sealed inside the doors. 24 it says: "The highest potential for exposure lies in 24 Q I want to talk to you a little bit about the 25 modernization jobs in older buildings with asbestos 25 apparatus that is hung on those hoistway doors that were Page 70 Page 72 1 insulation if this material is disturbed by our people." 1 asbestos-containing and supplied by Otis. You've talked 2 It was the same exposure in construction earlier 2 about this before and so I kind of want to go over some ol 3 in our history and then it became a secondary exposure if 3 the things you've talked about and ask some more 4 we modernized elevators. 4 questions. 5 So, I'm not trying to twist your words, I'm 5 A Okay. 6 trying to say that that's what the gentleman was talking 6 Q One of the devices is called a gib; is that 7 about when he wrote this letter. He's not talking about 7 correct? 8 the elevator components. 8 A Right. 9 Q The difference between one and two Is that one's 9 Q And a gib is attached at the bottom, front side 10 talking about Installation, and two's talking about 10 of the hoistway door; is that correct? 11 modernization; fair? 11 A Correct. 12 A That's correct. 12 Q And it's purpose is to guide the Otis elevator 13 Q And installation is not working with old stuff 13 door at the bottom to make sure it doesn't come loose? 14 that's been in there before 1975, for instance, that's 14 A Yes. 15 when putting in something brand new; right? 15 Q Would you agree with me that typically, unlike 16 A Correct. 16 other attachments, a gib would not have predrilled holes? 17 Q And so for more than several years, for years 17 A In the '50s and '60s, it would not have 18 and years, almost ten years, when you're doing an 18 predrilled holes. After about 1972, all Otis doors had 19 installation of the elevator, things like fireproofing and 19 predrilled holes. 20 joint compound would no longer be present; right? 20 Q What are you relying on to tell me that, just 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 memory or is there any documents that -- 22 A According to the law, they would no longer be 22 A Memory. 23 present. 23 Q Have you looked to see if there's documents that 24 Q And that's very different from modernization 24 support that? 25 when you still have to worry about running into those 25 A No. 18 (Pages 69 to 72) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 73 Page 75 1 Q My understanding, the problem with predrilled 1 machine screw; correct. 2 holes, at least when it came to gibs, is that there were 2 Q And that machine screw had to be long enough to 3 requirements that the doors be a specific height from the 3 go through the gib's mounting; is that fair? 4 sill, and that because different floors were different 4 A The gib and the door, yes. 5 heights, you couldn't have the precision that you would, 5 Q I think you answered the next question. It also 6 for instance, with other attachments; and, therefore, 6 went through the skin of the door? 7 that's the reasoning behind not predrilling? 7 A Correct. 8 A No, it wasn't a good reason. You're 8 Q And for periods of time when there was a 9 misinformed. The reason really was that it was a union 9 retainer plate, it would also go through the retainer 10 requirement under Article IV of the International Union o f 10 plate? 11 Elevator Constructors that required that work be done in 11 A For periods of time there was a retainer plate. 12 the field. 12 Q My understanding is that the code has required 13 So, prior to 1972 when there was a major strike 13 more recently that a retainer plate be added to it as 14 all across the U.S. and Canada, elevator constructors had 14 well, and so gibs -- 15 to drill those holes, both for the gibs and for the 15 A And instead of -- along with the two gibs, there 16 hangers on top of the doors. So that would have been the 16 were also retainers also attached to the bottom of the 17 case. 17 door, retainers. They really were gibs without the gib 18 Q So you don't believe -- I understand absolutely 18 material, just a piece of metal. 19 what you just said. But as an additional concern, you 19 Q Okay. And if that were used, the screw that was 20 don't believe that the height problems that you would have 20 used would have to be long enough to pierce through that 21 in meeting the code would be a reason that the drilling 21 as well? 22 should be done in the field as opposed to the floor? 22 A It was exactly the same process. 23 A That had nothing do with it. Because the floors 23 Q Okay. Do you know the length of the -- well, 24 are preset, the headers are preset for the doors to hang. 24 first, of the screw? 25 And all of that drilling that occurred by Otis Elevator 25 A I would estimate it -- and I'm going by Page 74 Page 76 1 was done into reinforcement inside the door in all of 1 memory -- to be 3/8-and-a-half an inch thick there. 2 those areas where there was no asbestos; so, there was no 2 Q Do you know the length of the actual mounting 3 asbestos contact to install gibs or hangers on Otis doors. 3 material that was used for the gib? 4 MS. DEAN: I'm going to object to the 4 A I would say 16-gauge material on the gib, and 5 nonresponsive portions, and let me just take a 5 1/8th gauge material, 1/8th inch gauge material on the 6 couple-minute break. 6 door would probably be typical. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:44 a.m., we're 7 Q And typically there would be at least one gib 8 off the record. 8 per door panel per hoistway door; is that fair? 9 (A brief recess was taken.) 9 A Yes. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:51 a.m., we're 10 Q And for someone who wanted to try to envision 11 back on the record. 11 that, when the hoistway door opens, there's two different 12 BY MS. DEAN: 12 panels, so there's going to be a gib on each of them, or 13 Q We were talking about gibs that were attached to 13 two for that one door? 14 hoistway doors, and I want to follow up with just a few 14 A Yes. For each door there would be at least one 15 more questions. 15 gib. 16 My understanding is the way that those gibs were 16 Q And sometimes two were used? 17 installed during the time that they were predrilled is a 17 A And sometimes two. 18 flathead machine screw that was -- was used in order to 18 Q For just a single gib that was put onto the 19 place it in on a mounting material; is that also your 19 door, my understanding is that you would have to, when 20 understanding? 20 there was drilling required, drill between three and five 21 A When the holes were predrilled and the 21 holes; is that yours as well? 22 self-tapping screw was used, that's correct. 22 A No. At Otis we would only drill two holes. 23 Q Okay. And when you had to drill it in, you had 23 Q Okay. You never had -- 24 to drill in a machine screw in order to get -- 24 A Two mounting holes for each gib. 25 A You would put a pilot hole and then use the 25 Q Okay. So you never saw a configuration of 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 77 Page 79 1 three, four or five? 1 In the '50s and '60s, they were bolted on by the field 2 A No, I did not. 2 constructor. 3 Q During what course of your employment history 3 After 1972 at Otis, they were not bolted on by 4 would you have been doing that hands-on work yourself? 4 the field constructor, they were an integral part of the 5 A 1966 to 1978. 5 door. In other words, the hangers were a part of the 6 Q Okay. So for each set of doors, there would be 6 door. So there were no hangers to install after 1972 at 7 a minimum of four holes that would have to be drilled into 7 Otis Elevator Company. 8 the doors in order to put on the gibs; is that fair? 8 Q Okay. So before 1972 when an elevator mechanic 9 A I would say at Otis it was not unusual on a door 9 is given a door, they're going to have to bolt it and 10 to only have two holes for one gib. The retainers only 10 drill it themselves; but, after that strike, it became 11 came about -- I'm going to say in the late '70s as part ol 11 something that was predrilled and given to them ready to 12 another fire code regulation. 12 go? 13 So in the '60s, I would say we were only 13 A Right. 14 installing one gib. I would say by the mid- to late '70s, 14 Q Okay. Even after they were -- 1972, when they 15 in some jurisdictions, we were required -- we were 15 were predrilled, you're aware of circumstances where, 16 installing additional metal gibs. 16 because of problems, that additional drilling was required 17 Q I think we're saying the same thing. 17 to either enlarge the hole or put in a new hole? 18 A Okay. 18 A Well, no, I'm not aware of that. Because I know 19 Q So because if it's one gib per panel, that's two 19 it's hard for me to explain without pictures and being 20 gibs per door or four holes per door; right? 20 able to give you a -- I can only use my words to try and 21 A Two or four holes per door at Otis. 21 describe. 22 Q Was there ever a hoistway door that was 22 An integral hanger was actually welded solid on 23 installed where there wouldn't be a gib put on both panels 23 top of the door skin itself on the inside of the elevator 24 of the door? 24 shaft. So the drilling by the field installer was 25 A Not that I can think of. 25 nonexistent. All they had to do was -- they were Page 78 Page 80 1 Q Okay. Sorry if I'm missing something. So if 1 eccentric. What's an eccentric roller? If I'm an 2 you have to have two gibs, and each gib requires at least 2 installer, I have the ability, because each roller that 3 two holes, then at minimum you have four holes being 3 holds the door has an eccentric roller, so I can raise or 4 drilled? 4 lower the door strictly by an adjustment of a nut and 5 A Okay. Well, I'm thinking about each individual 5 bolt, by design. So I'm not doing any drilling there or 6 panel. So if you have a center opening door, you've got 6 ever after. 7 two panels. 7 In other words, all of the design was taken over 8 Q Right. 8 by the factory. So at the best case/worst case scenario, 9 A All right? So you've got one gib on each panel, 9 the installer or the service mechanic might replace a 10 typically, so you have two holes in each one of those 10 roller, they're not doing any drilling after 1972 at 11 panels. At the entrance, the entire entrance, you'd have 11 Otis Elevator Company. 12 four holes. 12 Q Okay. So let me give you an example, I've been 13 Q Okay. And so for a girl who's walking up to an 13 given three or four, but if the center line door was not 14 elevator that's opening, I'm going to see two panels, and 14 set properly and the guidelines were shifted, my 15 each of those are going to have two holes in them? 15 understanding is an elevator mechanic would have to 16 A Right. If it's a center-opening configuration, 16 relocate the clutch, which meant that they would to have 17 you'd have two panels. 17 remount the door lock assembly. And so that if those 18 Q Okay. In addition to that, every elevator 18 predrilled holes weren't perfectly set, you would enlarge 19 mechanic would have to adjust the hanger rolls on the top 19 the hole in the door. And that's a kind of problem that 20 of the door to make sure they ran freely, and that all 20 didn't happen routinely, but in elevators -- 21 code gaps were achieved; is that fair? 21 A That probably happened in the '50s and '60s, but 22 A Yes. 22 it sure didn't happen in the '70s. Because there were 23 Q And the hanger assemblies were attached to the 23 slots in the door locks, there were slots in the clutch, 24 door? 24 so there was plenty of movement to get whatever adjustment 25 A Yes. Again, we would talk about a time period. 25 you needed in the early '70s. 20 (Pages 77 to 80) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 81 Page 83 1 So in 1960s, maybe you might have had to redrill 1 Q So same, same thing? 2 the holes -- highly unlikely, by the way -- but you might 2 A Yes. 3 have had to move a clutch or move a door lock in the '50s 3 Q What about -- my understanding is there are 4 and 60s. 4 different ways to ensure that the hoistway door closes and 5 Q Before 1972 when the mechanics were doing the 5 locks in the event that the elevator would move away from 6 drilling, how many holes were drilled for the hanger 6 the hoistway door? 7 assembly process? 7 A Um-hum. 8 A In what year? 8 Q And that some of those methods can require 9 Q Before 1972. 9 drilling as well; do you agree with that? 10 A Before 1972? I would say across the top of the 10 A There has to be a weighted device or a 11 door there would be two holes for each hanger and two 11 spring-loaded device to close the doors, the hoistway 12 holes for each door lock. So across the top of the door, 12 doors, when the car is either not there or if the car door 13 I would say six holes into the reinforcing inside of the 13 does not close that hoistway door properly. So there are 14 door, not inside the asbestos sheathing at Otis Elevator 14 numerous redundancies in the elevator industry to make 15 Company, and there would be two holes probably in the 15 sure that the public is safe. 16 bottom where the gib went, and that would pretty much b ; 16 So there they used a spring tension device that 17 it. 17 would attach to one of the doors sometimes; sometimes it 18 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portion. 18 would attach to something other than the hoistway doors, 19 Q And I'm gathering by your answer that you're 19 it would attach to a strut or a header. But there were 20 talking about for a panel in a hoistway door? 20 devices to pull the doors closed, the hoistway doors 21 A I'm talking about each panel, right. One 21 closed, whether the car door closed them or not. 22 panel -- if you're a center-opening door, one panel has a 22 Q Okay. 23 door lock, the other one has no door lock. 23 A For safety of the public. They were not always 24 Q And a center-opening door is your typical door 24 attached to the car door or the hoistway doors. 25 when, when you look at it, it opens from the middle, each 25 Q And sometimes they were? Page 82 Page 84 1 side goes to the opposite side and you can -- 1 A Sometimes they were. 2 A It's typical for people like yourself that live 2 Q And the spring coil that you're referring to, is 3 in the corporate world in office buildings and hotels. 3 that called a spirator? 4 It's is not a typical world for apartment buildings, which 4 A Yes. It was an Otis spirator. 5 is a huge amount of our installation. 5 Q You mentioned a weight, and I think I'm familiar 6 So, in other words, single speed doors, single 6 with the sash weights; is that what you're referring to? 7 slide doors are probably more common than center-openin g7 A Yes. 8 doors on anything except office buildings and hotel 8 Q Okay. Did Otis ever use any closures? I'm not 9 buildings. 9 sure if that's the professional term for it, but J.L. 10 Q Are there any other reasons that you can think 10 manufactured them and it was another method to close those 11 of that you would be drilling an asbestos-containing Otis 11 doors. Was that something Otis ever used? 12 door? 12 A I'm going to say no. 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 13 Q During any of the drilling that would happen on 14 A The only thing that I can think of is that there 14 Otis doors, Mr. Engle indicated that you would see a 15 was on some Otis doors what we would call a sight guard, a 15 little bit of white powder on the actual drill itself and 16 filler that would fill the space between the hoistway door 16 there would be powder from the hole; is that something 17 and the car, and you would drill some small holes similar 17 you've ever observed? 18 to the gib along the edge of the door to put on what I 18 A That did not happen at Otis Elevator, I not 19 would call a sight guard. Again, that would be done into 19 observe that ever. 20 the edge of the door into a specific area that was 20 Q And even if you're just -- just doing the gibs, 21 reinforced for that device. 21 before 1972, and drilling those four holes at minimum, in 22 Q And during what time frame would the drilling be 22 a ten-story building with ten elevators, that's 400 holes 23 done by a field mechanic as opposed to -- 23 you're drilling; right? 24 A '50s and '60s would be common, they would have 24 A Right. 25 been predrilled after '72. 25 Q Sorry, I don't mean to make it a math test, but 21 (Pages 81 to 84) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 85 Page 87 1 it adds up quickly just for one building; that's fair? 1 of is stacking. If you're stacking 400 elevators, it 2 A Right. I have a vivid recollection of drilling 2 makes a lot of good sense that you'd be able to stack 3 and tapping doors. Because on a large job, a mechanic or 3 them. 4 a helper, whatever my assignment was at the time, would 4 A I don't understand that. 5 actually spend days drilling, and I do not recall once 5 Q If you have a bunch of stuff stuck on the 6 ever seeing white powder on an Otis door. 6 elevator it's going to make it more difficult to stack; 7 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portions. 7 right? 8 Q You just volunteered though that you had spent, 8 A No, that's not true. With a door, door's flat, 9 personally engaged drilling holes into these elevator 9 even the hanger that's on it is flat. So, basically, you 10 doors during the time frame when you were either a helper 10 just make a pile, put them on a skid and get rid of them. 11 or a mechanic, and that was in the '60s or early '70s? 11 Q And it's your testimony that they were never 12 A That was in the '60s; correct. 12 recycled, the apparatuses, so that they could be used in a 13 Q Okay. You had mentioned earlier that 13 different context? 14 modernization work was done and that that kind of 14 MR. MORFORD: At Otis, you mean? 15 became -- I don't want to put words in your mouth but 15 A At Otis Elevator Company? I don't think so. 16 popular is the word that comes to mind, in the 1990s; am I 16 Q Do you believe that the removal of 17 understanding your testimony correct? 17 Otis elevators during modernization is a dusty process at 18 A Yes. 18 all? 19 Q But modernization is not something that just 19 MR. MORFORD: Could you repeat that question? I 20 started in the '90s, that was done in the '60s, '70s and 20 missed it, I'm sorry. 21 '80s, although not as often? 21 Q Do you believe that the removal of an Otis 22 A Yes. 22 elevator during modernization was a dusty process at all? 23 Q And during that time, I guess to explain what 23 A Actually, I wouldn't call it a dusty process. 24 modernization is on the very most basic level is, I've got 24 Q Does Otis test or do bulk samples on their doors 25 elevators in my building and I want to make them more 25 even today in order to evaluate whether there is asbestos Page 86 Page 88 1 modern, get better elevators, so that old elevators are 1 inside them? 2 going to taken out or updated and new elevators, or at 2 A If Otis is going to perform a modernization and 3 least portions of them, are going to be put in; is that 3 they are contracted to remove all of the elevator 4 fair? 4 components from the building, they would test the 5 A Yes. 5 components that they're suspicious might have asbestos, 6 Q And so some of these doors that Otis had and 6 for the sole purpose of trying to determine if special 7 sold with asbestos in them would have to be dismantled? 7 arrangements have to be made for that equipment to go to a 8 A They'd have to be removed, dismantled is a 8 specific landfill. Because there are very few areas in 9 deceiving question. They're all one piece so they're not 9 the country that will accept asbestos in landfills, so you 10 really dismantled, they're just removed. 10 have to find the specific areas. 11 Q My understanding is that in removal, there were 11 So, number one, that would occur. Obviously 12 two reasons that all of the attachments would generally, 12 then you would have the knowledge that asbestos is 13 although not always, be dismantled, taken off; is that not 13 contained inside the doors, you can't just ship the doors 14 your understanding? 14 off to anyplace that you want, you have to get a specific 15 A Oftentimes in a modernization they'd be -- all 15 area to ship them to. 16 of the hardware that's attached to the doors would not be 16 So from that standpoint, Jessica, yes, Otis 17 removed at all, correct, if that's what you just stated. 17 would try and determine which components of the unit that 18 Q I think we're saying the opposite. 18 they're disassembling would contain asbestos. 19 A Most times at Otis when we did a modernization, 19 Q And that's something that they started, I think 20 the entire door with all its attachments would be removed . 20 in your early testimony -- earlier testimony in 1972 and 21 Because it would have no value to the new door that was 21 still do today? 22 being installed because they'd be an entirely different 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 23 design; so, there was no point in removing the 23 A Fairly accurate. I think, I think probably this 24 attachments, you just take the door off and discard it. 24 was more prevalent in the '80s and '90s and presently 25 Q With all due respect, a point that I can think 25 today at Otis Elevator Company. 22 (Pages 85 to 88) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 89 Page 91 1 Q Okay. I marked as Exhibit 3 an Otis Employee 1 at the same time. I'm sorry. 2 Handbook, and I'll give you a copy of this, but I want to 2 Q I'm just trying to make us all happy. 3 put it up here so everyone can see as well. 3 MS. DEAN: You can't bring a notice and you're 4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 was marked for 4 screaming about this. 5 identification.) 5 MR. MORFORD: What's that? 6 My first question is, can you tell me, by 6 MS. DEAN: I said you can't bring a notice but 7 looking at this document, and I'll hand it to you, what 7 you're screaming about this. 8 year this manual or the book was created? Because I 8 MR. MORFORD: I'm not screaming about it, okay? 9 couldn't find it. 9 I just think the witness is entitled see the entire 10 A Okay. 10 document. 11 MR. MORFORD: Did you make copies for me of any 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I think I know -- 12 of the exhibits? 12 MR. MORFORD: It's not his fault you wrote on 13 MS. DEAN: Lots of them I did, but sometimes I 13 the wrong copies, Jessica. 14 accidentally write on the wrong copy and so I 14 MS. DEAN: And I don't have an obligation to 15 can't -- 15 show him documents that are his. 16 A This particular document, I can only -- I don't 16 MR. MORFORD: You have an obligation to give him 17 know the exact date, but I'm going to surmise that it was 17 an entire exhibit. Are you saying you don't? Are 18 in the '80s that this was created, that's my best guess. 18 you saying you don't have an obligation to give a 19 Q Okay. And just because legal people are legal 19 witness an entire exhibit? 20 people, when you say your best guess, can I also -- is it 20 MS. DEAN: I'm saying I offered it to him, but 21 fair to say it's your best estimate? 21 it doesn't matter. 22 A My best estimate. 22 MR. MORFORD: You didn't until I objected and 23 Q The part that I want to look at on here is, 23 then you made a wise crack, so don't start with me. 24 Exhibit 3, and it's marked 00076, and says "Asbestos 24 MS. DEAN: It's already started. 25 Testing." 25 Q Okay. Here's the question. Under Section 4, it Page 90 Page 92 1 MR. MORFORD: Can he have the whole exhibit so 1 talks about Asbestos Testing in subsection A; is that 2 he can read the entire thing in context? 2 fair? 3 MS. DEAN: Sure. 3 A Yes. 4 MR. MORFORD: You can still copy it. 4 Q And what it's telling, this document in the 5 MS. DEAN: The entire section that I want to 5 '80s, is that: 6 talk about is displayed on the screen. 6 "If you wish to determine the presence of 7 MR. MORFORD: Right. But he can't read the 7 asbestos, laboratory analysis of any bulk samples 8 entire document when you do this. 8 can be done through the area manager of safety and 9 MS. DEAN: I'm more than happy to give him a 9 environmental control, which is AMSE, and that this 10 break to evaluate the entire document. 10 analysis will tell you if it there is asbestos 11 MR. MORFORD: Can you go down so we can at least 11 present, how much... " 12 see what the part above that says on that page that 12 And in parentheses it has a percentage sign. 13 you kept from him? 13 "... and what type, based on the particular 14 MS. DEAN: I'm not keeping anything from him. I 14 sample. Contact your supervisor and arrange for 15 already stated that if he wants to look at everything 15 your questions and samples to be processed." 16 and take a break, we'll give him an opportunity to do 16 Did I did read that correctly? 17 that. 17 A Yes. 18 MR. MORFORD: We don't need to take a break. 18 Q In other words, it is a policy in Otis, starting 19 Just show us what's on the page before you start 19 at least in the 1980s, that if you suspect asbestos you 20 asking him questions about it. 20 need to get a sample? 21 A I'm sorry, I don't see -- 21 A This is a work practice guide, and the work 22 MR. MORFORD: We're not trying to be difficult. 22 practice guide is specifically intended for 23 A -- any mention of asbestos testing so I'm having 23 responsibilities and procedures for protecting employees 24 a little trouble. 24 from health hazards in the workplace from asbestos, new 25 Oh, I see, because you can't do it and show it 25 equipment, modernization, service and maintenance. 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 93 Page 95 1 But this particular asbestos testing that you're 1 fair? If you've got something that's 90 percent asbestos 2 referring to is really -- was really pointed at the 2 it might be more dangerous than something that only has 3 mechanic to say: If you're in a building and you suspect 3 10 percent asbestos? 4 that there might be asbestos insulation in the building 4 A I used to think so prior to the testing. But 5 that you're working in, and you don't know if it is for 5 what I did find through all my years of experience being a 6 sure, it's never been tested before, you can contact your 6 safety manager is that even though there was a high amount 7 supervisor, and the safety department and your superviso r 7 of asbestos in the insulation in many of these buildings 8 will help you determine whether or not there's asbestos in 8 that we worked in, the amount of exposure to the mechanic 9 this particular building." 9 from airborne asbestos fibers had nothing to do with the 10 Q Okay. And this is the Otis Employee Safety 10 bulk sample. 11 Handbook? 11 I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but 12 A Yes. 12 we saw buildings with high percentage of asbestos in the 13 Q Okay. And that's directed to elevator 13 insulation, very low exposure; we saw the same thing with 14 mechanics? 14 low amounts of asbestos in the bulk sample and the same 15 A Yes. 15 low exposure. So it didn't seem to be -- it seemed 16 Q And I am presuming from your previous testimony 16 logical that high amounts of asbestos in the bulk sample 17 this is something that is in fact done? 17 would create a higher risk, but time proved that not to be 18 A Yes. 18 true. 19 Q And the two things that it tells you you can 19 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 20 learn from these bulk samples of asbestos are the amount 20 Q In addition to having the employee handout that 21 of asbestos and the type of asbestos? 21 you were to test the amount and percentage, are you aware 22 A Yes. 22 of what Otis's policy is about retaining those records 23 Q And knowing the type of asbestos can be 23 where you learned from the bulk sample the amount of 24 important; right? I mean, Otis recognizes that. 24 asbestos and the type of asbestos? 25 A From a mechanic's standpoint, it doesn't mean 25 A Where Otis did the sampling, we kept the Page 94 Page 96 1 anything, I don't think. I think from a mechanic's 1 records. Well, even today we have the records from 1983, 2 standpoint they have a concern about -- because we've 2 '84. I actually don't know. 3 educated them at Otis -- that there may be asbestos in the 3 MR. MORFORD: She's talking about this sample. 4 building. They just want to know, "Am I safe to work in 4 A This sample here, bulk sampling? The building 5 this building?" And so what I'm trying to say is, is that 5 people? I don't know what the statute says about what the 6 they don't care what type of asbestos it is. All they 6 building people had to do. Because, in these cases, we 7 want to know is, "Please come and check this building and 7 would require the building owner to do the sampling, and 8 make sure it's safe for me to work here." 8 then iterate to us whether or not they had asbestos in the 9 Q But somebody at Otis cares about the type of 9 building. 10 asbestos because that's one of the things that you're 10 Q And when they did, is that data that would be 11 determining when you're doing these tests; right? It's 11 kept on file at Otis for any period of time? 12 part of the actual handbook to figure out the type of 12 A That data would be kept on file at that 13 asbestos? 13 particular owner's building. 14 A Even at the safety department level, all I 14 Q Okay. 15 really care about is that it's safe for that employee to 15 A They would tell us that it was safe to work 16 work in that building. 16 there. 17 Q Okay. 17 Q Is it kept on file by Otis at all, as opposed to 18 A I don't care what type of asbestos is in the 18 the building manager? 19 building, I just want to know that my employee is going to 19 A Not that I'm aware of. 20 be safe working there. 20 Q Okay. I want to hand you Exhibit 5, which is an 21 Q Yeah. If it's asbestos, you just want to know 21 Otis document that I received. I'll give you a moment to 22 it's asbestos? 22 look at that before I put it on the projector. 23 A Exactly. 23 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5 was marked for 24 Q The other thing it talks about is the amount, 24 identification.) 25 and that helps you evaluate how great the risk is; is that 25 A Okay. I understand the context of the letter. 24 (Pages 93 to 96) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 97 Page 99 1 Q Okay. Do you mind if I put it up here? 1 Q Okay. We have established it's an Otis document 2 A Yes. 2 written in 1988? 3 Q Yes, you do mind or it's okay? 4 A It's okay. 3 A Yeah. 4 Q I want to look -- if I can get my machine to 5 Q Okay. First of all, this is a -- this is on 5 work -- at the third paragraph. And what it states is: 6 Otis letterhead? 6 "The attached letter should be used in 7 A Yes. 7 response to all such formal notifications. You 8 Q And it's an Internal Correspondence, dated 8 should personally attempt to evaluate the potential 9 March 15th, 1988? 9 exposure to Otis employees yourself based on the 10 A Yes. 11 MR. MORFORD: I'm just going to object to 10 available information from the building owner, the 11 local office, and, if necessary, by visiting the 12 questions about an exhibit that's not in front of the 12 site." 13 witness in its entirety. 13 "In the next paragraph, it says: "The local 14 Q You've had an opportunity to review this; 14 office should endeavor to obtain any measurements 15 correct? 15 of airborne asbestos concentrations from the 16 A If Mr. Morford provided it to you, I've had an 16 building owner to assist in the evaluation. Any 17 opportunity to review it. 17 data collected should be kept on file 18 Q Even more recently, you just looked at it; 18 indefinitely." 19 correct? 19 Did I read that correctly? 20 A I glanced at itjust now. 20 A Yes, you did. 21 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, so that you understand my 21 Q And you have an individual screen that's right 22 question, it's because particularized questions, 22 in front of you to help you read that? 23 particular questions about this exhibit, could run 23 A Yes. 24 the risk of being taken out of context with the 24 Q Okay. And so my understanding from reading this 25 witness not being given the opportunity to have the 25 internal document from Otis is that at least in 1988 there Page 98 Page 100 1 entire exhibit literally in front of him to read 1 was a policy to get these records and to keep them 2 through. 2 indefinitely; is that fair? 3 I understand what you're doing, I know he 3 A That was a policy, to try and get the records 4 doesn't mind that it's on the screen, but I just 4 and keep them indefinitely. 5 think it's only fair to the witness if he has the 5 Q And it happened frequently enough that a form 6 entire exhibit to answer questions from as opposed to 6 letter was created and attached to this document; is that 7 the portions you choose to put up on the Elmo. 7 true? 8 I'm sorry you didn't make a third copy of the 8 A Yes. 9 exhibits, apparently you can't use the ones that you 9 Q And what it says is: 10 wrote on in your second copy, but -- 10 "Otis Elevator Company acknowledges receipt of 11 MS. DEAN: Did you bring a copy of your 11 your letter, dated..." on blank date, "... 12 exhibits? 12 regarding the presence of asbestos in your building 13 MR. MORFORD: I'm stating the objection, and 13 located at ..." blank. 14 that's my objection. You can do as you want, but 14 "Otis recognizes that as an employer it is 15 what happens later as far as the use of the document 15 fully responsible for compliance with all 16 is your risk. 16 applicable OSHA regulations." 17 Q Have you had an opportunity to read that 17 And that's body of that form letter; correct? 18 document? 18 A Yes. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you need more time to look at it? 19 Q Do you know why none of those documents have 20 been given to Mr. Engle? 21 A No, I'm fine. 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. The dates, first of 22 Q It's a two-page document; correct? 22 all, if they existed and I've never seen one, but if 23 A Correct. 23 they existed, Jessica, so you know, the date of that 24 Q And I gave you both pages? 24 document is 1988, it's long after he was doing 25 A Yes, you did. 25 elevator work; so, it wouldn't be relevant in any 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 101 Page 103 1 event, nor could it lead to relevant evidence. 1 what type of asbestos was there? 2 MS. DEAN: I couldn't more wholeheartedly 2 A I don't have any knowledge of documents from 3 disagree, but you don't have to listen to that 3 that building -- 4 argument. 4 Q Okay. 5 MR. MORFORD: I will tell you this, if we had 5 A -- regarding asbestos. 6 located documents like that from building owners, we 6 Q And the reason you don't have knowledge, just to 7 would have provided them to you, and I haven't seen 7 be candid, is you haven't talked to the building owners, 8 any. 9 MS. DEAN: And right now I'd like to ask the 8 you haven't gone to the Minnesota files, you haven't done 9 that search; is that fair? 10 questions of the witness. 10 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 11 Q Have you gone -- we'll just start off with 11 A No, I have not. 12 Minnesota, to the local offices to see what documents of 12 Q The actual doors and door frames that were 13 that nature they have? 13 manufactured by Otis, were they manufactured in a 14 A No, I have not. 14 Harrison, New Jersey plant for Otis? 15 Q Has that been done for any local office for Otis 15 A In what time frame? 16 Elevators that you're aware of? 16 Q If they ever were, we'll start there, then try 17 A I would say back when we were searching all 17 to see when. 18 asbestos-related documents in 2003 and 2004, 2002, '2, '3 18 A I'd say in the 1960s, most doors came from the 19 '4, we did not find any. And we did not go to the offices 19 Harrison plant. 20 personally but we requested the information from the 20 Q Was there any search of that plant to determine 21 offices. 21 the suppliers of the asbestos that was put into the doors? 22 Q Given the policy to first determine the type and 22 A Not that I'm aware of. 23 the amount of asbestos, and then the policy to keep those 23 Q Okay. It's not something you've done? 24 documents indefinitely, do you believe such documents 24 A No. 25 exist? 25 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, the plant's closed, it's Page 102 Page 104 1 A My belief is, is that most owners would not sign 1 been closed. 2 the Otis document. My -- from my personal experience, 2 A Yeah, for many years. 3 working with owners, they would harbor all of that 3 Q Have you discussed with any employee of the 4 information themselves. They would do the testing, they 4 Harrison, New Jersey plant to determine the supplier of 5 would tell Otis Elevator Company that it's safe to work in 5 asbestos that was used in elevators sold by Otis? 6 their building because they did the testing, but they 6 A Not that I recall. 7 would not, for liability reasons, provide any other 7 Q I'm going to take break from doors a little bit. 8 documentation. 8 A Looks like you're going to take a break. 9 Now, does that mean that any documents, some 9 Q Oh, he told me, I'm sorry. Yes, you're right. 10 documentation flowed from the owner to Otis Elevator 10 A I see him nodding there. 11 Company? Probably. But I did not produce or did not fin 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 12:27 p.m., we're of 12 any documents in my searches for those items. 12 the record. 13 Q So you haven't -- have you made first any -- we 13 (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken from 14 know that you didn't make an effort to look in the 14 12:27 p.m. through 1:10 p.m.) 15 Minnesota files to find out if that happened; that's fair? 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record, 1:11 p.m. 16 A That's fair. 16 BY MS. DEAN: 17 Q Okay. And I'm assuming no effort has been made 17 Q Let's talk about brakes. 18 to contact the owners where you know Otis work has been 18 A Okay. 19 done in order to evaluate that information? 19 MS. DEAN: Oh, I forgot about that. 20 A I'm not sure I understand your question. 20 Q You've already told me that asbestos-containing 21 Q Well, I know from documents that you've given me 21 Otis brakes were used, I think in the 1930s to the early 22 that Otis has done a modernization project in 1992 on a 22 1990s; is that fair? 23 First National Bank, which is a building in Minnesota that 23 A Yes. 24 Glen indicated he worked at. Have you guys talked to 24 Q Some of those asbestos-containing brakes used 25 those field people to find out what asbestos was there and 25 friction component, or used friction to actually stop the 26 (Pages 101 to 104) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 105 Page 107 1 elevators; is that fair? 1 A Forty-five to 55 percent of the composure of 2 A A very low percentage, yes. 2 that brake lining is chrysotile. 3 Q Do you have any idea what the percentage was for 3 Q And chrysotile is a form of asbestos? 4 any time? 4 A Yes. 5 A No, I do not know the actual statistics. 5 Q Okay. And so, on average, about half of the 6 Q Okay. Are there documents that would let us 6 entire makeup of a brake is asbestos, there's as much 7 know whether it was a third or half of the elevators that 7 asbestos in it as all of the other components combined? 8 use friction as a method to stop? 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 9 A Not that I'm aware of. I would say since 1970s, 9 10 almost all elevators sold did not have a friction stop -- 10 Q Is that fair? MR. MORFORD: Talking about a brake or a brake 11 Q Okay. 11 lining? 12 A -- at Otis Elevator Company. So I would say 12 A The brake lining provided by Raybestos, this 13 since 1970 or 1971, that all elevators sold by Otis rarely 13 material safety data sheet contained by 50 percent 14 ever had a friction stop in North America. 14 asbestos. 15 Q Okay. But after 1970 and even in the '80s and 15 Q And are you aware that some of the brakes that 16 '90s, an older elevator with a brake that used a friction 16 were used in Otis elevators had a higher composition than 17 stop may still exist? 17 even 55 percent? 18 A That's true. 18 A No, I was not aware of it. 19 Q Elevators typically have a pretty long-lasting 19 Q So you haven't seen document by anyone retained 20 life? 20 by Otis indicating that their brakes have up to 75 percent 21 A That's true. 21 asbestos? 22 Q Otis not only sold asbestos-containing brakes 23 for elevators, they actually specified the use of asbestos 22 23 A I just don't recall seeing that. Q Does that amount surprise you? Is that 24 in their brakes; is that fair? 24 something you've ever been told, that there's 25 A I only -- if I answer your question, I would 25 three-quarters of what's in the brake lining is made of Page 106 Page 108 1 answer it to say that the material safety data sheets that 1 asbestos? 2 I'm familiar with showed that there was 45 to 55 percen ; 2 A I guess it doesn't surprise me if that's what 3 asbestos chrysotile in the brake linings that I saw. 3 the material data safety sheet says. 4 Q Okay. I'll skip ahead to that and then go back 4 Q Okay. What originally got us on these questions 5 to the specification, just because you mentioned it. 5 though is, in addition to just selling and manufacturing 6 The only MSDS sheet that I've seen is this one, 6 the brakes, are you aware if Otis ever specified that, 7 is that -- and that indicates the numbers that you just 7 "Hey, our brakes need to use asbestos as a component"? 8 told me, 45 to 55 percent asbestos content; is that what 8 A I'm not aware of that, no. 9 you were referring to? 9 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you what I've marked as 10 A This is from Raymark, it looks like. 10 Exhibit 6. And it says Otis Elevator Material 11 MR. MORFORD: Don't make it -- 11 Specification. 12 A And it looks like, yes, 45 to 55 percent 12 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 6 was 13 chrysotile. 13 marked for identification.) 14 Q Are you aware of any other material safety data 14 Have you ever seen that document? 15 sheets that Otis has about any asbestos component used 15 A I may have. 16 other than this one? 16 Q Okay. And the way I read this document is that 17 A No. 17 it is a material specification requirement that Otis is 18 Q Okay. And just quickly I'm going to mark this 18 having in relation to different types of brake lining, and 19 as Exhibit 7. 19 lists brake lining number one, four, five, so on and so 20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 7 was 20 forth. 21 marked for identification.) 21 A Correct. 22 And what this indicates is that there is 22 Q And for each type of brake lining identified, 23 chrysotile asbestos in the brakes, and that 45 to 23 they indicate that asbestos is a component for those 24 55 percent of those brakes is asbestos; fair? 24 brakes; is that fair? 25 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 25 A Yes. 27 (Pages 105 to 108) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 109 Page 111 1 Q And so it's Otis that is saying, "As a 1 Q A problem that was routinely had with elevators 2 specification for our materials, we want asbestos to be 2 though that were DC motor driven is that they wouldn't 3 used"? 3 level properly, they released a little bit too high or a 4 A When this document was written in 1971, Otis was 4 little bit too low? 5 saying, "This is a description of what's in the brake 5 A I don't recall that being a problem at 6 lining." 6 Otis Elevator Company. 7 Q Then attached to that is another document where 7 Q So you don't believe one of the biggest source 8 it says Technical Information Publication, and I think 8 of accidents in relation to Otis Elevators has been a 9 it's dated July 7th, 1981; do you see that? 9 person exiting the elevator tripping or entering the 10 A Yes, I do. 10 elevator tripping, because it's just a little bit -- it's 11 Q And that also has a description of the 11 a little too high or a little too low? 12 brake linings, and for each of those indicated that 12 MR. MORFORD: Alleging that or doing it? 13 asbestos was used; is that true? 13 Q Did that actually happen? Was that a problem at 14 A Yes. 14 Otis Elevator? 15 Q And for at least certain periods of time, all of 15 A It's true that in general tripping going in and 16 the asbestos brake linings used in Otis elevators were 16 out of elevators is a fairly high occurrence, I guess 17 asbestos-containing; is that fair? 17 you'd say, from a publicly reported accident on Otis and 18 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 other elevators. 19 A I no longer believe that to be 100 percent true. 19 But at Otis, the elevator, if it did not level, 20 But I think it's probably fairly safe to say that through 20 if it did not land level with the floor, could be -- was 21 that period up until manufacturers were required to 21 probably, most likely, a matter of it not being adjusted 22 eliminate asbestos from brake linings that that was true. 22 properly to stop level with the floor, in other words, had 23 Q Okay. I want to talk primarily about the 23 nothing to do with the brake. It would stop on a leveling 24 maintenance of brakes, but, quickly, an elevator mechanic 24 system below or above the floor, and that leveling system 25 that was adjusting an elevator would also have a 25 was not adjusted correctly, had nothing to do with the Page 110 Page 112 1 responsibility to deal with brakes in terms of adjusting 1 brake. 2 spring tension on asbestos-containing Otis brakes; is that 2 I'm not saying that there wasn't a re-leveling 3 fair? 3 system on Otis Elevator Company. If there was a heavy 4 A Yes. 4 load in the car, maybe the car might stop and go below the 5 Q My understanding is that the two main types of 5 floor and have to be leveled. But if you had a consistent 6 brakes used by Otis, especially if we don't talk about the 6 problem, it was typically nothing do with the brake, it 7 last ten years, are AC single speed brakes and DC brakes. 7 was to do with how the elevator was adjusted to land at 8 A Yeah. 8 the floor. 9 Q Is that correct? 9 Q Regardless if it was due to the brake or due to 10 A Yes. 10 how the elevator was leveling with the floor, my 11 Q Okay. I want to talk about, first of all, the 11 understanding is what happens is that the DC motor has to 12 DC motor driven machines and see if I understand how they 12 rotate to get the elevator in the correct place? 13 work and how someone would be in contact with asbestos. 13 A That's correct. That's true. 14 My understanding is the idea of these brakes is the motor 14 Q And during that rotation that the brake drum 15 will control the acceleration and deceleration of the 15 would drag on the brake shoes? 16 elevator to make the elevator level at the landing; is 16 A No, not necessarily. 17 that fair? 17 Q Is that something -- 18 A Level and stop at the landing. 18 A At some manufacturers, perhaps, but not at Otis. 19 Q And there's a small clearance for it to go 19 They lift the brake, level it into the floor, and drop the 20 either a little bit up or a little bit down but it's 20 brake in. 21 pretty small? 21 Q So during this rotation of the motor, it's your 22 A The UMB control for DC operated elevators wouh 22 claim and what you intend to tell the jury is that the 23 bring the elevator into the floor level and then stop it 23 brake drum would not drag on the brake shoes? 24 at the floor, and the brake would clamp the machine so 24 A Right. 25 that it would not move for loading and unloading. 25 Q And that that never occurred? 28 (Pages 109 to 112) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 113 1 A "Never" is a big word. There might have been 1 2 some products where it did occur; but, to my knowledge an< 1 2 3 my adjustment experience, the brake lifted for the 3 4 re-leveling process. 4 5 It would be stupid to drive a machine through 5 6 the brake. Maybe some companies did that. I guess stupid 6 7 is the wrong word. It's not what I'm accustomed to at 7 8 Otis Elevator Company. 8 9 Q For your DC brakes as well as the AC driven 9 10 machines that were used, there was a maintenance schedule 10 11 that required elevator mechanics to disassemble, clean, 11 12 lubricate and take any corrective action on the brakes; 12 13 correct? 13 14 A Yes. 14 15 Q Would you agree with me that with DC motor 15 16 driven brakes that you would have high spots that would 16 17 have to be cleared in order to maximize the amount of 17 18 contact to the brake lining. 18 19 A I don't think I would agree with that. 19 20 Q That's not something you've ever -- 20 21 A In my 38 years of experience, I never saw anyone 21 22 sand, file, grind or adjust a brake lining. I saw many 22 23 adjustments to the spring tension to lift the brake clear 23 24 of the motor pulley; but, I never saw anything to adjust 24 25 the brake lining or manipulate the brake lining. 25 Page 114 Page 115 MR. MORFORD: I know Don Nason testified in one case back five years ago, I've not spoken with him since then. I'm not certain he's in -- if he is or is not in discovery responses here, I just don't know the answer to that right now, so -- And I think the witness has already said he doesn't know who Don Nason is. I think we already talked about that in his deposition earlier today. MS. DEAN: We did a little bit. I just wanted to be able to establish that he's Otis's expert, which I can find in here, it might take me a while. MR. MORFORD: I don't believe we've identified him as an expert witness in this case. I believe he testified in one case in El Paso, Texas, in 2002. I know I haven't spoken with Don subsequent to 2002 so I, you know. I can stipulate that in 2002 he testified in the Langer case, and I can also tell you, as I sit here right now, I don't have any intent of calling him in this case. MS. DEAN: I'm going to hand you the interrogatory responses that I've shown you before, which are responses given to me from Otis in relation to this case. MR. MORFORD: Jessica, if Don Nason is on the Page 116 1 Q Are you saying that in terms of both DC and AC 1 witness list, he's on the witness list, but I'm not 2 brakes? 2 going to call him at trial, and I'm not using him as 3 A Yes. 3 an expert. 4 Q If Otis Elevator hired an expert to talk about 4 MS. DEAN: But I might. 5 brakes and how they work, and he indicated sanding would 5 MR. MORFORD: Well, I doubt it. 6 be required, would you rely on the experts that Otis chose 6 MS. DEAN: I doubt it too, but -- 7 to hire? 7 Q And the reason I'm handing you that document is 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection, calls for speculation. 8 to point your attention to 18, page 18, where it discusses 9 A I would just restate my answer. In my 38 years 9 different potential witnesses that will be used by 10 of experience, personal work in the field, I never sanded 10 Otis Elevator? 11 filed, ground a brake. I never employed anyone who did. 11 MR. MORFORD: Did you say page 18? 12 I never saw it occur in my 38 years of experience at 12 MS. DEAN: Yes. 13 Otis Elevator Company. 13 A Maybe it's in the second one. 14 Q You don't have 38 years of experience working in 14 Q For some reason, and I think it relates to how 15 the field? 15 things are filed in Massachusetts, they were filed in two 16 A Oh, yes, I do. I didn't work in the field with 16 different sets because I think the length, which is why 17 my hands but I was in field with all facets of my job for 17 you're seeing two sections there. 18 38 years. 19 MR. MORFORD: Are you going to ask another 18 A I think it's this page. 19 Q Is that 18? 20 question? 20 MR. MORFORD: What is this, this is -- 21 MS. DEAN: Soon. 21 MS. DEAN: Defendant Otis Elevator Company's 22 Will you stipulate for the record that 22 answers to plaintiff's interrogatories, set one and 23 Donald Nason is an expert that is listed in your 23 two, filed on September 21st, 2007. 24 discovery responses as well as someone that's been 24 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 25 used in the past? 25 29 (Pages 113 to 116) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 117 Page 119 1 BY MS. DEAN: 1 don't print out the same. 2 Q If you look at that document, would you agree 2 MR. MORFORD: Did you ever read this before? 3 with me that the seventh person mentioned on a witness 3 THE WITNESS: I don't recall reading this. 4 list of people that Otis might rely on in relation to this 4 MR. MORFORD: She's making this up then. I 5 trial is Patrick Dowson? 5 object to the line of questions, just for the record. 6 A Yes. 6 MS. DEAN: Move to strike the commentary. 7 Q Okay. Now I want to show you some testimony by 7 Q Does the beginning of that page say, "That 8 Mr. -- do I have that right? That's you. I'm trying to 8 sounds like something you've done a time or two?" Are we 9 find, I need to find Nason, which will require saying 9 on the same page? 10 that. 10 A Are we on page -- okay. It says 58 at the top, 11 MR. MORFORD: We didn't identify him in this 11 104 at the bottom. 12 case, Jessica. I'm surprised. That why I said I 12 Q Yes. Okay. I'd like you to look at the 13 can't say that because I don't think we would have. 13 question on line 7 that says: 14 And I don't see him in this set of discovery 14 "Do you have to ever sand them or buff them or 15 responses, because I haven't talked to him in five 15 grind them and shape them so they fit tightly 16 years, I don't know if Don is even alive. I hope he 16 against the friction surface?" 17 is and he's doing great. 17 And if you looked at line 4 above, you can see 18 MS. DEAN: I might be confusing Dowson's 'rogs 18 that they're talking about brake linings that had 19 with Nason's. 19 asbestos-containing materials. Are you with me on that? 20 MR. MORFORD: We have no intention of calling 20 A I'm sorry, I was reading while you were asking 21 Don as a witness in this case. We haven't spoken 21 the question, so restate your question, please. 22 with him about this case. He doesn't have the -- 22 Q I'll state it this way, let me know if reading 23 he's not the person most knowledgeable, as Pat is 23 this correctly. 24 here today. 24 Mr. Nason was asked: "When we're talking 25 So did he testify in 2001 or '2 in the Langer 25 about brake linings, are those asbestos-containing Page 118 Page 120 1 matter? Yep, we all know that, we both have the 1 materials?" 2 transcript. 2 Answer: "Some of them." 3 MS. DEAN: Okay. I want to reference that 3 Question: "Do you have to ever sand them or 4 transcript for a minute. Do you mind showing him 4 buff them or grind them to shape them so that they 5 that copy or shall I give him mine? 5 fit tightly against the friction surface?" 6 MR. MORFORD: I guess I'll show it to him. What 6 Did I read that portion correctly? 7 page? 8 MS. DEAN: If you look at the first page, this 7 A You read the question correctly. 8 Q And you do agree me, if you move on to the next 9 is the deposition that your attorney referenced where 9 page, that he admits on line 17: 10 Donald Nason was deposed on behalf of Otis in the 10 "If you've got a high spot, you can try to tap 11 Langer case, which is an El Paso, Texas case. 11 it down with a ballpene hammer, you can file it and 12 MR. MORFORD: I'm going to object to the use of 12 knock off the high spot." 13 document. I don't understand, are you impeaching him 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 with something? We'd like to know what it is. It's 14 A I see what Mr. Nason said. 15 improper impeachment at this point. 15 Q Do you disagree with Otis's expert -- 16 MS. DEAN: I'm asking him a question about it. 16 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 Q I'd like you to look to page 58 of this 17 Q -- in the Langer case? 18 testimony. And I forewarn you that the way this 18 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 19 transcript was done makes that difficult, because the 19 A What I stated is true. I worked in the field 20 numbers at the bottom are not the same as the numbers of 20 for 12 to 13 years, I never once put a file on a 21 the pages. So if you go to 58 on the bottom, that will 21 brake lining, never saw anyone else do it, and in my next 22 not tell you what you're looking for. 22 28 years or whatever it is as a supervisor and safety 23 MR. MORFORD: What page do you want him to go tc 23 manager, never saw anyone do it either. It was not part 24 on the bottom there, Jessica? 24 of any standard procedure that I'm aware of. 25 MS. DEAN: I think it is 104 but the documents 25 MS. DEAN: Objection, not -- 30 (Pages 117 to 120) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 121 Page 123 1 A Did it ever happen? 1 object to the nonresponsive, but the move to strike, 2 Q I'm sorry. 2 I think will be handled at the time of trial. I'm 3 A According to Mr. Nason, it might have, but my 3 just talking about counsel's comments. 4 experience is it never happened. 4 A I think Mr. Nason stated, page 105, it says at 5 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 5 the top here: 6 Q Are you going to disagree with Otis's retained 6 "If you're hitting over 60 percent of the 7 expert in Langer who said that there were high spots that 7 surface of the lining, you don't need to do 8 would either be ballpene hammered off or -- 8 anything. If you've got a high spot, you can tap 9 MR. MORFORD: He's an employee of Otis during 9 it down with the ballpene hammer." 10 the time -- Mr. Nason's an employee of Otis during 10 You could take a file and knock it off with a 11 the time of Langer. 11 high spot. 12 You keep referring to him as an expert. I just 12 My experience, that 60 percent over the surface, 13 don't understand why you keep doing this but I'll 13 that this condition that Mr. Nason talked about hitting 14 continue my objection. The witness already said he 14 with a hammer or knocking it off with a file must have 15 doesn't know who Mr. Nason is, if you're going to 15 been extremely rare because I never saw it in 38 years. 16 make these representations it's improper. 16 That's all I can say. 17 Q I want my representations to be nothing but 17 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 18 accurate, so if you'll turn with me to the bottom of the 18 Q So, you've never seen filing? 19 page number, being 15, the actual document page number is 19 A Never. 20 nine. 20 Q You've never seeing seen a ballpene hammer used? 21 MR. MORFORD: Page nine or page 15? 21 A Never. 22 MS. DEAN: Page 15 at the bottom and nine in the 22 Q And you won't go as far as saying if another 23 middle. 23 employee saw it that they're wrong, you just have never 24 Q I'd like to focus your attention to the very 24 seen it? 25 bottom of that page, line 6, and move on to the next page 25 A I've never seen it. Page 122 Page 124 1 as well. 1 Q With an AC brake that was used prior to 1980, 2 A And who's talking in this deposition, is this 3 still Mr. Nason? 2 disabled AC brake, is it fair to say that that's a 3 friction brake? 4 Q Yes. The question is: 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 Question: "All right. I understand that you 5 A Prior to 1972, Otis used that quite a lot. 6 have been designated as both a fact witness and an 6 Q And when using it, that it was a type of 7 expert witness in this case; is that your 7 friction brake; is that fair? 8 understanding?" 8 A Yes. 9 And Mr. Nason responds, "Yes, it is." 9 Q And my understanding is that the stop on the 10 Q Did I read that correctly? 10 brake -- 11 A Yes, you did. 12 Q And so my question goes back to this. If 11 Well, my notes make no sense. Let me look to 12 the original document. 13 Mr. Nason, an employee of Otis, is a fact witness and an 13 -- is that AC resistant control elevators stop 14 expert hired by Otis in former cases, indicates that there 14 on the brake and slide into the floor at every single 15 were high spots that had to be ballpened off or filed off; 15 stop; is that fair? 16 are you disagreeing? 16 A Yes. 17 A Let's go back to what he said. Let's go back to 17 Q And those brakes were asbestos-containing? 18 page -19 Q The bottom of that was 104 and it went to 105. 18 19 A In many cases, yes. Q And my understanding of the way that AC motor 20 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, he already -- I object, 20 works is it accelerates very quickly so that the elevator 21 because it's been asked and answered. He already 21 goes from zero to hundred feet per minute very quickly; is 22 disagreed with Mr. Nason, then you moved to strike 22 that fair? 23 his disagreement. So I object to the question as 23 A Uh-hum, yes. Keeping in mind that hundred fee: 24 asked and answered. 24 per minute is not very fast; in miles an hour, maybe 25 MS. DEAN: Just so the record is clear, I did 25 five miles an hour. 31 (Pages 121 to 124) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 125 Page 127 1 Q Fast for an elevator, slow for a car; fair? 1 MR. MORFORD: That means you're really doing a 2 A Right. 2 good job. 3 Q It's one those elevators where you can kind of 3 Q Oh, I have to ask now. Do you think you're 4 feel it when you take off as opposed to smoother rides 4 qualified to read industrial hygiene studies? 5 that you take now? 5 A Yes. 6 A Okay. Yes. 6 Q Do you think you're qualified to read 7 Q And at some points there a device in the system 7 epidemiological studies? 8 that tells Otis Elevator's controllers to disconnect the 8 A I don't know, I don't think so. 9 power before the elevator starts to stop; is that true? 9 Q We'll deal with those studies in a little bit. 10 A Yes. 10 MS. DEAN: Let's take a short break. 11 Q And the friction comes from the brake drum 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 1:45 p.m., we're off 12 sliding against the brake shoes? 12 the record. 13 A Yes. 13 (A brief recess was taken.) 14 Q And that happens every single stop? 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:52 p.m., we're 15 A Yes. 15 back on the record. 16 Q And your contention is, despite that friction, 16 BY MS. DEAN: 17 every single stop, there's never high spots that have to 17 Q Do you have an estimate on the average life span 18 be sanded down? 18 of a brake lining before it would have to be re-lined for 19 A That's correct. I don't like your term "never" 19 Otis elevators? 20 but it's extremely rare because I never saw it. 20 A I can only say extremely long periods of time. 21 Q Have you ever seen a problem with glazing, that 21 Q In a matter of years? Months? Decades? 22 because there's so much action on it there's a glaze that 22 A Years, many years between. 23 develops around the brake lining? 23 Q And it's your conception that even though it's 24 A Some of the brake lining would be replaced mor< 24 only re-lined after pretty long periods that no sanding or 25 than likely. 25 filing has to occur? Page 126 Page 128 1 Q If the brake lining is thick enough, then an 1 A Correct. 2 alternative to replacing it that is both cheaper and more 2 Q Okay. I want to return your attention to back 3 effective is to try to get off the glazing; is that fair? 3 to Exhibit 6, which we looked at a few minutes ago, and 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 focus on the Technical Information Publication? 5 A At Otis we would replace the brake lining. 5 A Yes. 6 Q So you've never seen any sanding in an effort to 6 Q Do you see that it has a label, 0TS, at the 7 remove that glazing? 7 bottom with numbers? 8 A That's correct. 8 A Yes. 9 Q The problem with the glazing is that if it's 9 Q And the beginning of this document says 10 smooth you have a problem with friction, you need some 10 Otis Elevator Company, and shows the North American 11 kind of tension there? 11 operation logo for Otis Elevators; correct? 12 A Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Have you ever seen any clean-up happen after an 13 Q And if you look to the last page, this is a 14 elevator mechanic does maintenance work on brakes? 14 document from the National Field Engineer, Abe Saxer 15 A I'm not sure what you mean, Jessica, any 15 (phonetic) for Otis; correct? 16 clean-up. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Either the use of a broom or vacuum, catalytic 17 Q Okay. And the subject of this is talking about 18 blower, all of the above? 18 brake linings, their use, and the different brake types; 19 A It's standard procedure to clean, sometimes blow 19 is that also fair? 20 out the brake with a hand blower like a hairdryer, you 20 A Yes. 21 know, wipe it with a rag; so, cleaning of brakes was quite 21 Q I want to bring your attention to the last page 22 normal, and there was no exposure to asbestos because w ; 22 of that document. 23 tested that procedure. 23 A Yes. 24 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 24 Q Excuse my underlining, but the part I want you 25 portion. 25 to focus on, and let me know if I'm reading it correctly 32 (Pages 125 to 128) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 129 Page 131 1 where it says: 1 pulling words out of the middle of a sentence. 2 "As a final resort, the lining can be pened 2 MS. DEAN: We can waste all our time by 3 with a ball -- with a hammer or can be sanded to 3 bickering but I read those words, I read the whole 4 match the contour of the pulley." 4 sentence, I gave him the document. It actually came 5 A Yes. 5 out of my mouth. 6 Q And then the last sentence says: 6 So, you're not allowed to testify. If he sees a 7 "If the lining is sanded, the final contact 7 problem, you have a chance to question him on it, 8 radius will vary from the actual pulley radius by 8 let's just get this done. I highlighted them even, 9 the thickness of the abrasive paper." 9 and that's what the record is going to reflect. 10 A Correct. 10 MR. MORFORD: Your last -- you're telling us now 11 Q And this is an Otis document from 1981 talking 11 that your last question included all the words in the 12 about using a ballpene hammer and sanding paper on brake 12 sentence? 13 linings; correct? 13 MS. DEAN: My last question wasn't reading from 14 A Right. And then I'd like to bring your 14 the document, it was asking him what his opinion was. 15 attention to the sentence that says "as a final resort" 15 I'm going to keep doing that: Document, opinions, 16 you can hammer it or sand it. And what I'm telling you, 16 document, opinions. My little method. 17 my experience is it never needed to be hammered or sanded. 17 MR. MORFORD: Brilliant. 18 Never, I guess, is a little bit strong of a word 18 Q Okay. Let's talk about wiring. Asbestos -- 19 because I'm sure this occurred a few times, but it was not 19 I'll sometimes refer to it as asbestos wiring. But to 20 a standard procedure. Because the brake lining was the 20 make sure we're on the same page, my understanding is Otis 21 same shape as the brake drum or the brake pulley; and, if 21 sold elevators with wiring that had a covering that was 22 it was bonded correctly, there was no difference between 22 asbestos-containing, it wasn't actually in the wiring; is 23 the two. And all you had to do is put a feeler gauge 23 that fair? 24 between the two to make sure that they were separated 24 A That's fair. 25 properly when the pulley was running. 25 Q Okay. Sometimes I just get shorthand, that's Page 130 Page 132 1 And this procedure, as a final resort, as 1 always going to be what I mean by that, it's the covering 2 Mr. Saxer says, he's trying to give his engineers and his 2 that contains the wiring having an asbestos component. 3 mechanics an alternative, and then also a proper procedure 3 And you admit that for at least certain years, 4 if they had to sand it. But I'm telling you, in my 4 Otis sold elevators that had asbestos insulation over the 5 experience, this never occurred under my watch. 5 wiring? 6 MS. DEAN: I'll object as nonresponsive, after 6 A I acknowledge that they had the asbestos wiring 7 the statement I'd like to point out to you. 7 over very heavy motor leads in the machine room only, 8 MR. MORFORD: He's just trying to give context 8 factory installed. 9 to this. 9 Q How do you know that that's the only 10 Q And this document is three pages? 10 application? 11 A Yes. 11 A Because my knowledge of modernization in the 12 Q And in this document, it talks about as a 12 1980s and '90s, when we looked for areas where we could 13 methodology for working with brake linings, to use a 13 find asbestos, that was where we found asbestos, was in 14 ballpene hammer and sanding, and it's your contention that 14 the heavy leads in the elevator machine room. 15 that's something that almost never happened? 15 Q And you knew that in the '80s and '90s? 16 A That's true. 16 A Yes. 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. He also used -- you 17 Q There's wiring in the elevators internal to the 18 began to pull certain words out of document. The 18 Otis Elevator controller; is that correct? 19 words you just used out of the document were preceded 19 A Well, in general to answer your question, yes, 20 by, I believe, "as a final resort," and that's what 20 there's wiring in the elevators. 21 the witness was saying. 21 Q And there's also wiring from -- 22 MS. DEAN: Again, I ask you not to coach the 22 MR. MORFORD: Excuse me, I don't think he was 23 witness. 23 done. 24 MR. MORFORD: I'm not. I'mjust trying to make 24 A I guess I wanted to say, it's hard to clarify 25 the documents be fairly used as opposed to your 25 your question. There's wiring in car cab, there's wiring 33 (Pages 129 to 132) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 133 Page 135 1 in the hoistway, there's wiring in the machine room. So 1 deposition, you were under oath? 2 I'm not quite sure where you were going with your 2 A Yes. 3 question. 3 Q And you had your attorney present? 4 Q Just to ask about the wiring in the elevator 4 A Yes. 5 controllers. 5 Q I want to turn your attention to page 21. And 6 A Okay. 6 there's a copy for your review sitting on your side of the 7 Q There is wiring, in fact, in the elevator 7 table. I'm also going to put it up on the monitor. 8 controllers? 8 MR. MORFORD: Here you go. Here's the entire 9 A Correct. 9 page. 10 Q Okay. And the next place I was going to go to, 10 Q The question's actually on the earlier page. 11 there's wiring in the Otis hoistways to the elevator 11 What David asked you is: 12 controller in the machine room? 12 "Would an elevator mechanic or somebody like 13 A Yes. 13 me, would somebody like Mr. Dalquist working in 14 Q And then the elevator mechanic would have to 14 elevator installations, have any responsibility 15 handle those wires? 15 relating to the wiring or the arc shields?" 16 A Yes. 16 And if you look at page 21, line one, you 17 Q They'd have to connect the wire to the terminal 17 start talking about wiring. 18 where the wire arrives at, whether it be in the junction 18 And you say: "The wiring would be internal on 19 box, at the car, or inside the junction box at the 19 elevator controller itself, and there would be some 20 controller site; correct? 20 wiring that ran from the elevator hoistway to the 21 A That's true. And at Otis we never found 21 elevator controller in the machine room that 22 asbestos in any of those wires. 22 installers like Mr. Dalquist would have to handle." 23 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 23 And -- well, first, did I read that correctly? 24 portions. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And part of terminating a wire or what that 25 Q And the next question talks about how you handle Page 134 Page 136 1 means is cutting the wire; correct? 1 them, and I've covered the same territory where you 2 A Yes. 2 explain that you'd run the wire down the elevator shaft, 3 Q And so if there's asbestos covering that wire, 3 and their only contact with the actual wire itself is when 4 you're cutting through that asbestos? 4 they connect it to the terminals which arrive at -- 5 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 whether it be at the inside junction box or the inside of 6 A Hypothetically, yes. 6 the junction box at the controller. 7 Q Has it been your testimony in the past that some 7 That's something we just talked about that you 8 of the wires that we just discussed had asbestos 8 still contend to be the case; correct? 9 insulation? 9 A Yes. 10 A No, they did not, at Otis Elevator Company. 10 Q The next question asks you: 11 Q Has that always been your testimony? 11 "Would this wiring have the asbestos 12 A Well, I'm not sure, but it is my testimony 12 insulation that you talked about?" 13 today. I'm more knowledgeable today than I have been in 13 And you answered: "It could in some cases. 14 the past about where those wires occurred at Otis Elevato 14 We found modernization products that it was 15 Company. 15 inconsistent." 16 Q What happened in the last four years that made 16 And the only wiring that was being talked about 17 you more knowledgeable than in the previous deposition? 17 was on the controller itself and the wiring that ran from 18 And I know you said you looked it in the '80s and '90s, 18 the elevator hoistway to the controller in the machine 19 but makes you more knowledgeable about things that 19 room? 20 happened in the past today? 20 A Well, I don't think my answer, line 25, was as 21 A Well, I think you have to be specific, I don't 21 clear as my answer today. I said: "We found 22 know what I said before. 22 modernization products that it was inconsistent." 23 Q Okay. I'd like to turn your attention to the 23 In other words, there were some wires, mainly 24 deposition taken on May 23rd, 2006, in the Dalquist case. 24 heavy wires that carried a lot of voltage that had 25 We've talked about this deposition once before. As any 25 potential for heat that had some asbestos-containing 34 (Pages 133 to 136) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 137 Page 139 1 materials insulation. 1 know, we're talking about wires that are the size of my 2 So it wasn't all wiring, all controller wiring 2 little finger or larger, and they would have to strip the 3 did not contain asbestos, only some of the wiring that was 3 end off of that and clamp it. So, you know, we're not 4 heavier nature that contained some. 4 talking about the overall installation of the elevator, 5 Today I'm being more specific and I'm saying 5 this is only a minor part, a few minutes' work. 6 it's the motor field wiring that ran from the motor field 6 Q I think -- I just want to make sure I have an 7 internally in the machine room, so none of it in the 7 answer to the question -- that during either the '30s 8 hoistway. I think it was pretty consistent with what I 8 '40s, '50s or '60s, that this idea of stripping and 9 say here really. 9 clamping wires that had asbestos covering was something 10 Q Is motor field wiring control wiring? 10 that a person working on an Otis elevator would likely 11 A There are connections to the controller, yes. 11 come in contact with? 12 Q Would you call it controller wiring? 12 MR. MORFORD: When you say working, do you mean 13 A Well -- 13 installing? Or do you mean maintaining and 14 Q And that's where the confusion comes in for me. 14 servicing? 15 Because it seems like in this you're talking about 15 Q You can go ahead and answer. 16 controller wiring and indicating it's asbestos-containing 16 A Installing elevators, they would clamp them 17 and you're backing away from that now. Help me understand 17 together; on maintenance and service they would rarely, if 18 if I'm getting confused. 18 at all, hardly come in contact with them. 19 A I understand how you can be confused. It's 19 Q So the answer to my question is that yes, an 20 pretty -- you need to be an elevator mechanic or we need 20 elevator mechanic -- 21 to spend quite a bit of time on this, have some diagrams 21 A On construction would come in contact with that 22 and so on. 22 wiring; on service and maintenance, probably not. 23 But an elevator machine would arrive in the 23 Q And the nature of that contact would be the 24 field and have internal wiring inside that machine. 24 stripping, clamping, or cutting? 25 Inside that machine would contain, in the time period that 25 A On construction, yes; on maintenance and service Page 138 Page 140 1 we're talking about, some asbestos covering on those 1 with a meter, probably touching the wires to get a voltage 2 wiring, on those wires. 2 reading. 3 The wires that ran from the machine to the 3 Q For the -- for the type of wiring where you said 4 controller may or may not have contained asbestos. We 4 for Otis Elevators that it may or may not be asbestos, it 5 definitely found asbestos in the machine internal wiring. 5 could be plastic, it could be other types of covering -- 6 So if I ran wires or the mechanic ran wires from the 6 A Yes. 7 controller to connect to the machine, they may or may not 7 Q -- could you determine the consistency of the 8 have had asbestos in them, they may have only been 8 covering by touching it? I mean, you can tell the 9 rubber-coated or plastic-coated wires. 9 difference between asbestos cloth and a plastic or PVC 10 So depending on the era of the modernization, 10 covering? 11 it's very had hard to answer these questions, because 11 A No, Jessica. But my response would be that in 12 they're almost job specific. But one thing that was 12 modernization, before we removed elevators from service 13 fairly consistent was that the internal wiring inside the 13 and replaced them, the only place we found 14 motor and sometimes the generator would have asbestos 14 asbestos-covered wiring was on the motor field with heavy 15 coating on the wires. 15 leads in the machine room. 16 Q Would you agree with me that it's likely, that 16 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 17 during the '30s, '40s, '50s and '60s, that an elevator 17 Q Can you tell the difference between a plastic 18 mechanic would have been terminating or cutting asbestos 18 and an asbestos-covering wire? 19 wires throughout the course of their career? 19 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 20 MR. MORFORD: On an Otis machine? 20 A Only if you have it tested. 21 MS. DEAN: Yes. 21 Q You don't believe that that can be determined by 22 A On an Otis machine? I would say that they would 22 feel? 23 make connections to asbestos coated wiring on the machin ; 23 A No. 24 and at the controller. They would make connections, yeah. 24 Q For instance, have you seen a caryl (phonetic) 25 They would clamp, they would physically -- you 25 covered with asbestos? 35 (Pages 137 to 140) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 141 Page 143 1 A I mean, I can assume from my experience and you 1 Q Okay. Where Asbestos Wire 2 is something that 2 can assume from your experience, but the only way to 2 is a new update in this 1964 -- 3 really know is to have it tested. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. I think I -- I think I understand the 4 Q -- specification. So, at least starting in 1940 5 distinction. But if you're somebody that has lot of 5 and then going into the 1960s, we know that at least 6 experience with these wires, you're going to be able to 6 Asbestos Wire No. 1 was being used in Otis elevators. 7 give a likelihood guess of what type of covering it is 7 A We know but we don't know where -- 8 based on that experience, although you would need 8 Q Okay. 9 scientific testing to know for sure? 9 A -- from this document. 10 A Right. 10 Q That's what I was going to ask you. Can you 11 Q Okay. I want to show you a document I'm going 11 tell from here what applications this was going to be 12 to mark in its entirety as Exhibit 8, which was provided 12 used? 13 to me on Saturday from Otis. 13 A Well, I'm starting to assume from number one am 14 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 8 was 14 number two, but I'm only guessing that it's specifically 15 marked for identification.) 15 where I already told you, which is on the machine room 16 I'm going to ask you to turn with me to 511, 16 wiring where we have heavy currents. 17 which is the Otis Bates number, it's on the bottom right 17 Q And that, that guess is based on your experience 18 of the document. 18 in testing later and finding it there? 19 MR. MORFORD: Just for the record, there are 19 A Correct. 20 documents in Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 that are marked 20 Q Okay. Is it based on anything else? 21 "confidential." We have the prior agreement, but I'm 21 A No. 22 making sure the court reporter recognizes that 22 Q Do you know where this document came from? 23 Exhibit 8 will have a separate seal for the time 23 A No, I'm sorry, I don't. I don't recall where 24 being. 24 this specific document came from. 25 MS. DEAN: And eight is the entirety of all, 25 Q And then if you go on to the next page, you can Page 142 Page 144 1 they're all confidential. 1 see that there are additional asbestos covered wires that 2 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 2 are being used by Otis, not just used by specified by Otis 3 MS. DEAN: They were just all clipped together. 3 in July of 1964; is that correct? 4 MR. MORFORD: Fair enough. 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Specified doesn't mean 5 A I see exhibit or page 11 that you're talking 5 used. 6 about, Jessica, but I don't know what it's referring to. 6 A Right. It is being specified in 1964. 7 Q Okay. Let me look at it on here with you. 7 Q The next page I'd like you to turn to -- well, 8 And this is an Otis Elevator Company Material 8 do you know where that document came from? Did I ask you 9 Specification sheet, is that what it says on the top? 9 that? 10 A Yes. 10 A I think it's a manufacturing document but I'm 11 Q And it's dated at the bottom, it says, "Date 11 guessing. 12 issued, July 1, 196 --" 12 Q So you didn't locate the document? 13 A 1964. 13 A Well, if I did I don't recall where -- where we 14 Q I think. Okay. And what it's specifying are 14 got it from. 15 asbestos wires; correct? 15 Q If you look to 520, there are, it says, there's 16 A Yes. 16 like a parts list, for lack of a better word, where it 17 Q And then if you look at the bottom, there's also 17 gives a figure number, a reference number, a part number 18 a note here; correct? 18 and description? 19 It says, "No Asbestos Wire No. 1." Do you see 19 A I'm sorry, what page are you on? 20 where I'm at? 20 Q 520. 21 A Yes. 21 A Okay. 520. 22 Q And what it's indicating is that previously they 22 Q I'm trying to figure out how I would read this 23 were using Asbestos Wire No. 1, and they date that, 23 document. Is the code on the parts number corresponding 24 January 17, 1940? 24 to another set of documents that discuss the nature of the 25 A Yes. 25 part? 36 (Pages 141 to 144) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 145 Page 147 1 A I wish I could help you out but I don't know how 1 components are, they just don't exist because it's 2 to. The part numbers are part numbers, that's all I can 2 been such a long time ago. 3 say, I don't know how they're derived. 3 And we haven't had the other stream of cases 4 Q Do you know who created this document? 4 that other asbestos defendants have such as we've 5 A No, I don't. 5 always had a gazillion of these things out there. 6 Q Do you know who might be able to help me figure 6 MS. DEAN: I'm just trying to figure -- 7 out how to read it? 7 MR. MORFORD: I'm just trying to tell you for 8 A No, I don't. It's a pretty old document. 8 the record. I understand what you're doing but I'm 9 Q It is. 9 trying to help. 10 A Looks to me like it's internal wiring on an 10 MS. DEAN: We've got to stop. 11 elevator controller. That's what it looks like to me, 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 2:16 p.m., we're off 12 internal. 12 the record. 13 MR. MORFORD: Look at 517, that should help you. 13 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 14 A 517, yeah. 14 record.) 15 MR. MORFORD: 516. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:18 p.m., back 16 Q It looks to me like -- 16 on the record. 17 MR. MORFORD: It's not the part number, it's the 17 BY MS. DEAN: 18 reference number you need to look at. 18 Q Do you know the particular manufacturers of any 19 A Right. If you look at the reference number, 19 of the asbestos wire that was used by Otis? 20 then the reference number refers to page 517. And so if 20 A No, I do not. 21 you looked at number 53, for example, and you go over an d 21 Q And so if somebody had a memory of using a 22 find 53, then it'll say coil or magnet. 22 particular type of wire in relation to Otis's elevators, 23 So it would appear, Jessica, that this is a 23 would you be able to dispute that testimony? 24 parts list for a controller, all the little parts and 24 A No, I could not. I'm always amazed at people 25 pieces that went on a controller at this era. 25 who can remember all these manufacturers and things but Page 146 Page 148 1 Q I agree. But what I'm curious about is if I 1 am not one those people. 2 wanted to know the nature of that part, the supplier of 2 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 3 the part, and look at that parts number document, is there 3 portions. 4 any corresponding document? The way I read a lot of other 4 Q Were you aware that there were particular types 5 sheets that are similar to this is that those numbers 5 of wire that were manufactured specifically for elevator 6 correspond to other files. Do you know if that's the case 6 components? 7 here? 7 A No. 8 A I just don't know, Jessica. 8 Q Elevator -- 9 Q Because I can't tell in looking at this, and 9 A No, I'm not aware of that. 10 neither can you, is it correct, that any -- what is the 10 Q Okay. 11 material that makes up any of these parts? 11 A It's possible, Jessica, but I'm not aware of 12 A No, I'd be guessing. 12 that. I guess I would have assumed that somebody bough' 13 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, if I can try to explain 13 wiring that met the criteria but it was not specific to 14 for the record, we tried to dig up everything we 14 elevators. But I could be wrong. 15 could responsive to your request. But you have to 15 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 9 was 16 recall, especially with these sorts of things, they 16 marked for identification.) 17 changed tremendously in the last 30 years as 17 Q What I hand you is Exhibit 9, which is not an 18 electronics have changed tremendously in the last 30 18 Otis document, it's a General Cable Corporation document. 19 years. 19 And it said: "All asbestos and asbestos varnish, Cambric 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 insulation wires and cables." 21 MR. MORFORD: These things haven't been made for 21 And I wanted to direct your attention to the 22 decades. We just don't have old documents. We've 22 second column, first paragraph. 23 looked. I just wanted to say it on the record so 23 A Okay. 24 that you understand, we've tried to find things to 24 Q And they're talking about different conductors 25 help you as far as who suppliers of all the different 25 that are used, and they specifically indicate they have 37 (Pages 145 to 148) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 149 Page 151 1 some for elevators; correct? 1 MS. DEAN: Yes, I'll mark it. 2 A Yes. 2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10 was marked for 3 Q And if you move to the next page, very 3 identification.) 4 similar-type language, they're also indicating that their 4 MR. MORFORD: Can you tell me where it came 5 wires can be used for elevator control panels and indicate 5 from? 6 the appropriate voltage; correct? 6 MS. DEAN: No. 7 A Yes. 7 MR. MORFORD: You can't? 8 Q So you don't know one way or another if that 8 MS. DEAN: No. 9 type of wire was used in Otis elevators? 9 A I can see by looking at it this is an extremely 10 A No, I'm sorry, I do not. 10 old elevator. I don't know what vintage but I'm going to 11 Q I want to talk to you now a little about arc 12 shields. You indicated that Otis sold elevators with 11 say '20s or '30s, probably. 12 MR. MORFORD: Can I just ask why you can't tell 13 asbestos-containing arc shields? 13 me where the photos came from? 14 A Yes. 14 MS. DEAN: I don't know. 15 Q Arc shields, arc reflectors, blow-out coils, 15 MR. MORFORD: Oh, okay. That's a good reason. 16 those are all different names for the same thing? 16 A I guess I would like to say, there's another 17 A Yes. 17 exhibit that you passed to me, I think two exhibits ago, 18 Q In most basic terms, an arc shield is used -- 18 that more clearly depict a blow-up coil than what I see 19 let me back up. My understanding is that there are 19 here. I don't really -- I don't know what to say about 20 electrical contractors that are used to operate elevators? 20 this, this is such an old vintage. It's not what we 21 A Yes. 21 typically see in the workplace anymore. 22 Q And that an electrical contractors is an open 22 Q Not anymore. But would you agree that the front 23 face switch that comes together to conduct electricity? 23 of that -- and I'll put it here so we can look at it 24 A Yes. 24 together -- looks like somebody took a picture, not 25 Q And then an electrical coil pulls a relay, and 25 necessarily a very professional one, but it says at the Page 150 Page 152 1 that the relay has fingers that actually conduct the 1 top here Otis Elevator Controller; correct? 2 electricity? 2 A Yes, it is. 3 A Yes. 3 MR. MORFORD: Just so I can have a running 4 Q And where the arc shields come into play is that 4 objection to the use of the photographs; lack of 5 they're put in between each one of those fingers? 5 foundation. 6 A Yes. 6 Do you agree to that so I don't -- 7 Q And the purpose is to make sure that you -- the 7 MS. DEAN: Oh, sure. 8 electricity doesn't have the ability to jump from one 8 MR. MORFORD: -- object to each question. 9 finger to another? 9 Q And these are the arc shields? 10 A Very good, yeah. 10 A Yes. They are arc shields, yes. 11 Q And there are about three to six relays on an 11 Q And my understanding from previous comments is 12 controller, in general? 12 that you believe that these were arc shields that were 13 A Depending on the vintage that you're talking 13 used in a very old vintage Otis elevator as opposed to 14 about, some of them, there could be 50, 60, a hundred 14 some you would see now-a-days? 15 relays. 15 A Very old vintage. 16 But I think what you're referring to is to carry 16 Q Can you give me an estimate? 17 the heavy current where these blow-out coils existed is 17 A I think '20s or '30s. 18 probably five or six relays, probably pretty typical. 18 Q Is when it would have been installed? 19 Q Okay. I think we're on the same page on that. 19 A Yes. 20 I want to hand you some pictures that show at 20 Q For that vintage elevator, is that a fair and 21 the top Otis Elevator controllers, and ask you if that 21 accurate depiction of what the arc shields would look on 22 depicts an arc shield in between each one of those relays. 22 an Otis Elevator controller? 23 MR. MORFORD: I object, lack of foundation to 23 A On an elevator of that era, yes. 24 the exhibit. I've never seen that before. 24 I was going to say, even in the era that 25 MR. RHODES: Is that Exhibit 10? 25 Mr. Engle worked in the field, I doubt that he ran into 38 (Pages 149 to 152) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 153 Page 155 1 many of those controllers, because I didn't. 1 asbestos components that were used: The wiring, the door, 2 Q So you don't think even in the '60s and the '70s 2 inside the doors, any gaskets and packing if they were 3 that he'd be interacting with elevators installed in the 3 asbestos-containing, and the floor tile; can you tell me 4 '30s? 4 who supplied the asbestos component to those? 5 A Very few. 5 A My only knowledge is of the brake linings, which 6 Q Now, the use of arc shields albeit may be 6 I actually recall the material safety data sheets, so we 7 different, a different look to them, that were 7 know that Raybestos and Johns-Manville provided them. Th 8 asbestos-containing, still continued for into the '60s and 8 rest of the products, I don't know they where they came 9 '70s; correct? 9 from. 10 A Yes. 10 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 11 Q We talked a little bit about asbestos-containing 11 portion. 12 floor tile. My understanding is that floor tile in 12 Q Now, you've been asked before in 2002 who 13 general was not something that Otis was doing when 13 manufactured some of these products, the brake linings and 14 installing new elevators after the mid '70s, the early to 14 doors; correct? 15 mid-'70s's; is that correct? 15 A Yes, I probably have. 16 A Yes. 16 Q And do you remember indicating that you hadn't 17 Q Okay. Do you know for what period of time the 17 done anything to find out who had done that back at that 18 floor tile that was installed was asbestos-containing? 18 date? 19 A No, I don't. 19 A No, I don't recall that. 20 Q In order to cut the tile -- first of all, tile 20 Q Let me refresh your memory. It's a deposition 21 has to be cut in order to be installed; correct? 21 of a gentleman by the name of Lewis Blackman? 22 A To fit it to the elevator cab, the edging or the 22 MR. MORFORD: Blackburn. 23 edges, pieces that go around the edge of the cab, normally 23 Q Blackburn. 24 to have to be fitted. 24 A That was in Texas, right? 25 Q Okay. And to fit them, you'd have to cut the 25 Q Lewis, yeah. And I'd like to draw your Page 154 Page 156 1 tile to make it fit? 1 attention to page 50. 2 A Yes. 2 MR. MORFORD: When you're saying "you," do yoi 3 Q Have you ever seen someone use a belt sander in 3 mean Mr. Dowson or do you mean Otis? 4 order to do that? 4 MS. DEAN: Otis Elevators. 5 A No, I never have. 5 MR. MORFORD: Because I can tell you, we 6 Q What methods have you seen or used in order to 6 searched, I told you we searched. 7 cut tile? 7 MS. DEAN: Pat's the corporation, not you. 8 A A utility knife. 8 Q What this says, if you start at line seven, you 9 Q Anything else? 9 were asked: 10 A No. 10 "Do you know where Otis purchased asbestos 11 Q Have you ever been involved with preparing the 11 boards?" 12 tile that is installed in Otis elevators? 12 Answer: "I do not." 13 A No. 13 Question: "Is there any way that could be 14 Q Is that something that Otis did prior to when 14 determined now where Otis obtained the asbestos 15 they stopped working with floor tiles? 15 board it put inside its elevators?" 16 A I'm sure Otis did replace some floors in the era 16 Answer: "I don't know, I can't answer that 17 that I worked in, I just wasn't part of that effort. I 17 question." 18 didn't see it occur. 18 Question: "Have you done anything to try to 19 Q Okay. So do you have an opinion about the 19 determine who supplied those -- that asbestos board 20 methodology used to remove or repair floor tile in 20 to Otis?" 21 elevators? 21 Answer: "No, I did not." 22 A No, I don't. 22 MR. MORFORD: Now, when you say "you," do yoi 23 Q Okay. We'll move on. 23 mean you, Pat Dowson, or you, Otis? That's what I 24 A All right. 24 want clarified for him to answer the question 25 Q Other than the brake linings, for any of the 25 completely and honestly. 39 (Pages 153 to 156) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 157 Page 159 1 Q Did I -- did I first read that correctly? 1 supplied the asbestos components put into Otis elevators 2 A Yes, you did. 2 other than brake lining? 3 Q And do you recall one way or another whether you 3 A Me, personally? No. I think I answered the 4 were acting as a corporate representative during that 4 question though, at that time, Mr. Morford and other folk. 5 deposition? 5 in the company searched to find anything we could on 6 A Yes, I was. 6 asbestos. 7 Q Okay. And, like today, that means that I'm 7 Q Is there anyone other than a lawyer? Because if 8 asking you questions on behalf of Otis Elevators? 8 this is the case, I'm going to ask to break privilege, 9 A Yes. 9 because I need to ask somebody who can explain to me what 10 MR. MORFORD: Counsel, wait a second. Now, it's 10 was searched and how that was done. 11 one thing if you ask a question and say, "Did you do 11 A Mr. Morford went from department to department 12 something?" It's another thing when you say, "Are 12 within Otis Elevator Company with the full authorization 13 you aware, did Otis do something?" 13 and permission to get every document related to asbestos 14 And you haven't couched the questions to him 14 from every place he could find it. 15 today in terms of "did Otis do something" very often? 15 So his task was to go to every entity that he 16 Sometimes you have, that's fine. 16 could find within Otis Elevator Company and find every 17 When you couch it in terms of "did you do 17 asbestos document related to asbestos. 18 something," I think you're causing confusion as 18 Q And to talk about that process, is there anyone 19 opposed to "did Otis." I just want you to clarify 19 other than a lawyer, Mr. Morford? 20 the question so that the witness is treated fairly, 20 MR. MORFORD: Mr. Dowson, he was just telling 21 that's all I'm asking. 22 MS. DEAN: I think it's been clarified, if it 21 you. 22 Q Tell me exactly what you've done in order to 23 was someone else, I'll -- 23 determine this process. I thought you'd done nothing. I 24 MR. MORFORD: Do you understand that every time 24 mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but I thought I 25 she said "you" all day long, she meant you, the 25 understood your testimony -- Page 158 Page 160 1 entirety of Otis Elevator Company, as opposed to you, 1 MR. MORFORD: He thought you meant Otis, he just 2 Pat Dowson? 2 told you what Otis did. 3 THE WITNESS: I understand, Mr. Morford, why 3 Q And I'm asking, because my understanding is Otis 4 you're making that statement. I mean, sometimes when 4 hired a lawyer and the lawyer looked. Other than that 5 you're asked a question and it says "you," you think 5 lawyer, is there anyone I can talk to, to understand what 6 about you personally, most often you do. 6 was looked at and what process was followed? 7 And so in this response, I'm sure I thought this 7 A Mr. Morford was employed by Otis Elevator to 8 question was aimed specifically at me, personally, 8 search our database, Otis Elevator Company paid him to d> 9 and that's why I answered the way I did. 9 that. He interfaced with numerous people whom I don't 10 BY MS. DEAN: 10 know the names to give you, but he went from place to 11 Q That deposition was taken in 2002? 11 place to find documents, and he found whatever he could. 12 A Yes, I believe so. 12 Q You don't even know that to be true, personally, 13 Q It's been about five years? 13 right? 14 A Yes. 14 A Oh, absolutely, I know that to be true. 15 Q Have you done a search since then? 15 Q Have you personally verified it or did he just 16 MR. MORFORD: 2003. 16 tell you about it? 17 THE WITNESS: 2003. 17 A I absolutely know that to be true, I definitely 18 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 verified it. 19 A I have not personally done a search since that 19 Q How? 20 time; but searches were done, Jessica, within our company 20 A By talking to the places where Mr. Morford went. 21 on everything related to asbestos. And you have, to my 21 Q Who? 22 knowledge, received everything that we have on asbestos. 22 A I mean, I don't remember the names at the time 23 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portions. 23 but I certainly called the Otis service center. I called 24 Q So since 2003, it's fair to say that personally 24 the plant in Bloomington, Indiana, and interfaced with 25 you haven't done anything in order to determine who, who 25 people there to make sure that they gave full cooperation 40 (Pages 157 to 160) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 161 Page 163 1 to Mr. Morford to get everything he needed. 1 A I am fully confident that we have produced -- 2 Q If I wanted to know the places that were went 2 Otis Elevator Company, that is -- every document that we 3 to, the persons talked to, or the documents reviewed, 3 could find in our searches related to your requests. 4 could you tell me that? 4 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 5 A I -- gosh. I can't remember the names 5 Q Other than telling me that you talked to Joe 6 specifically, we're talking five years ago. 6 Morford, are there any places, names or documents that you 7 Q But you couldn't remember five years ago when 7 can tell me that have been looked through or have been 8 you were asked; true? 8 gone over that you haven't told me so far? If not, we'll 9 A I don't think I fully understood the question 9 move along. I just need an answer. 10 five years ago. 10 A We looked at all the documents that we could 11 Q Is there anyone -- 11 think of as a company to provide to you and other people 12 A That was my first deposition -- 12 Q And you don't -- 13 Q I saw that. 13 A I don't know what else to say. 14 A -- on this asbestos stuff. But I probably just 14 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 15 didn't understand the question correctly. 15 Q The method that Otis used to look through the 16 Q And I just -- I'm sincerely just wondering, if I 16 documents, as you understand it, was to hire a lawyer; 17 wanted to know how documents are organized, where they 17 correct? 18 were, how they were searched, who searched them, other 18 A We hired a third-party, it happened to be a 19 than Joe, the lawyer sitting next to you, can you think of 19 lawyer, because it was the best effective use of time and 20 anybody who could give me any more details than what he 20 a most thorough way to get it. 21 told me today? 21 Because if a lawyer comes to your department and 22 MR. MORFORD: Is there some reason you haven't 22 says, "I want everything that you have related to 23 taken my word for it? 23 asbestos, I want you to stop what you're doing, you have 24 MS. DEAN: Yes, but I think it's best -- I found 24 the full support of Otis management to stop what you're 25 400 documents that you haven't produced, and only 25 doing, research all your documents and see what you can Page 162 Page 164 1 under an order to compel did I get them. So, yeah, I 1 find on asbestos, and give it to Mr. Morford," you've got 2 have a problem. And I don't know what you've done. 2 full cooperation and you've got it done. I don't think 3 MR. MORFORD: I'd love to know -- I mean, I 3 there's a better way to do it. If you send an Otis 4 tried to give you everything that's responsive to the 4 employee to do it, they may get -- 5 discovery request. I'd love to know what you have. 5 MR. MORFORD: Just answer the question. 6 MS. DEAN: We can get into that later, but I 6 A -- pushed off. 7 have a right to figure out what was looked through 7 MR. MORFORD: Don't defend the process, just 8 and how. And if the only guy that's done it is 8 answer the question. 9 someone who has no elevator training, is a lawyer, I 9 A I think it was an excellent process. 10 have a right to know that. 10 MR. MORFORD: Okay. Don't defend the process, 11 Q And so it's a simple question. Can you tell me 11 just answer the question. 12 in terms of places, names and documents, or can you tell 12 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 13 me anything other than what you've already told me? 13 Q I'm not saying the process was bad or good. But 14 A I think I've answered your question. 14 if I want to know how it was done, where it was done, what 15 Q So there's no other information for you to give 15 documents that were looked through, is it fair to say you 16 me? 16 can't give me any more details because the process that 17 MR. MORFORD: He just answered your question, he 17 was employed was to use an attorney, and the only name you 18 said no. He's told you what he knows. 18 can give me right now is Joe Morford? It's not whether 19 Q Do you agree with your lawyer's representation 19 it's good or bad, it's who you talked to. 20 that, no, there's no other information you can give me? 20 A Talked to Joe Morford. 21 Because he can't testify for you. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection, asked and answered. 22 A I can't think of anyone else right now. 23 MS. DEAN: I can't read that. 23 Q Okay. We briefly touched on the subject that 24 MR. MORFORD: And I can't let you keep 24 there are other construction workers that would be 25 reading the -- 25 present, especially during the installation of an 41 (Pages 161 to 164) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 165 Page 167 1 elevator, that may have had asbestos products; do you 1 Q And you would say it's fairly common to have an 2 recall talking about that? 2 upward draft of the air movement, which has been referred 3 A Give me that again. Sorry, too much of a change 3 to by people as a chimney effect? 4 of context. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Sorry, I completely changed. In the 5 Q Would you agree that the elevator mechanic would 6 construction setting, when you're installing an elevator, 6 oftentimes be left with the responsibility of cleaning out 7 we had talked a little bit about the fact that elevator 7 the hoistway or the cab after that joint compound work was 8 mechanics could be exposed to asbestos from other trades. 8 done? 9 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Would you agree with me that one of those 10 Q I also want to talk to you a little bit about 11 trades, at least before 1972, let's leave it there, would 11 boilers and during -- interaction that an elevator 12 have been tapers and vetters that were putting up 12 mechanic might have with boilers during installation of an 13 wallboard in the building? 13 elevator. 14 A That would be a possibility, yes. 14 Have you ever seen it where the boiler room was 15 Q And my understanding is that sometimes there 15 either attached to or adjacent to the elevator mechanic 16 would be taping and vetting done in the actual elevator 16 room? 17 machine room; would you agree with that? 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 A Yes. 18 A On rare occasions, yes. But, by code, the 19 Q And that they would also be done on the 19 elevator machine room is totally separated from all other 20 different landings; so that if you're working on an 20 equipment; so, my experience has been, is that it's a 21 elevator, it may in the lobby at that landing; is that 21 totally separated room. There were large commercial 22 fair? 22 buildings where you may have to walk through a boiler room 23 A Yes. 23 in order to get to the machine room; but, normally your 24 Q Through your experience, have you seen the 24 elevator machine room is totalled separated and walled. 25 process of taping and vetting occur? 25 Q And mr. Engle had said the same thing, but he Page 166 Page 168 1 A Yes. 1 said a lot of times -- well, not a lot of the time, but 2 Q Have you seen the dry asbestos being mixed? 2 some of the time wire mesh fencing material was used in 3 A Yes. 3 order to do that separation. 4 Q Have you seen it being applied to the walls? 4 A I would say that's pretty rare. 5 A Yes. 5 Q Even if they are walled off from each other, has 6 Q Have you seen it sanded? 6 it been your experience that an elevator mechanic would 7 A Yes. 7 have to go through a boiler room in order to get to their 8 Q And have you ever seen just the general cleanup 8 workspace? 9 process after they do that? 9 A In a large commercial construction project, it 10 A I guess, I guess the answer is yes, I don't have 10 would not be unusual, 50 percent of the time, maybe 11 a distinct, clear vision of that. 11 40 percent of the time. 12 Q Okay. Would you agree with me that that can be 12 Q Okay. I want to talk to you a little bit about 13 an extraordinarily dusty process? 13 how Otis has handled safety issues and -- throughout the 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 years. It's your belief Otis is a very -- is very 15 A Sheetrock, even today, is a very dusty process. 15 progressive about safety; is that fair? 16 Q One of the things that Mr. Engle pointed out to 16 A Yes. 17 me is he described the elevator hoistway as a chimney that 17 Q And you contend that the main reason Otis 18 kind of sucks air in, so that if joint compound work was 18 finally stopped using asbestos in their elevators that it 19 being done it would come into the elevator. Have you 19 sold is because they couldn't get the asbestos products 20 ever -- Would you agree with that? 20 anymore, in other words, they stopped selling it; is that 21 A I guess in the Minnesota area in the wintertime, 21 true? 22 yeah, if all the doors were on and the bottom of a 22 A Yes. 23 hoistway was left open, the elevator hoistways could 23 Q Was safety any of the consideration for them to 24 become somewhat of a chimney with warm air moving up 24 stop using asbestos as opposed to just not being able to 25 through them, yes. 25 get your hands on it anymore? 42 (Pages 165 to 168) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 169 Page 171 1 A I'd say the elimination of the products by the 1 only potential exposure that I'm aware of. 2 industry was the main driver. I don't think safety was 2 Q Have you seen in any Otis handbook where it's 3 the driver from a workplace issue standpoint, because all 3 indicated that you would be exposed, and, therefore, you 4 of our testing proved that there was no real exposure in 4 need to not remove these linings, get someone else to get 5 the workplace from asbestos. 5 in there and do it? 6 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portions. 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Was safety even an afterthought in that process? 7 Q And we've already looked at an MDS -- MSDS sheet 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 8 that talked about asbestos brakes; correct? 9 A I don't know how to answer your question. What 9 A Correct. 10 time period are you talking about and how are you -- how 10 Q It's Otis's contention that those brakes are 11 are you putting that together? 11 safe, that they don't cause any kind of problem? 12 Q In determining to stop using asbestos in the 12 A With respect to asbestos, that's correct. 13 components that Otis had, whether it be -- some of the 13 Q And that what's been marked as Exhibit 7, I want 14 components in the '80s or later in the '90s, you've 14 to look at it again, and what this says -- well, first, 15 indicated that the driving force was that you couldn't get 15 can you explain to the jury what a material safety data 16 the asbestos anymore. And I was following up with that 16 sheet is? 17 saying, was safety even an afterthought in that process? 17 A It's a comprehensive breakdown of the materials 18 A Well, first of all, safety for the worker only 18 in a particular product and the potential exposure of 19 came into the workplace in about 1972, 1973 by OSHA, so 19 those materials to harm people, or does it create the need 20 that was the first time when basically the industry was 20 for any engineering controls or personal type of controls? 21 put on alert that working around asbestos was a concern. 21 Q And what this particular material safety data 22 So by that time, because of other asbestos-related 22 sheet is looking at in terms of being potentially 23 findings, the manufacturers of asbestos were already bein 23 dangerous is the use of brake linings; is that fair? 24 required to remove it. 24 A Yes. 25 And so therefore your question's kind of 25 Q And what it says under Inhalation is: "Chronic Page 170 Page 172 1 backwards inasmuch as the products were removed by the 1 overexposure may cause asbestosis and cancer;" correct? 2 time OSHA enacted a safe workplace based on exposure of 2 A If that's what it says, Jessica. 3 asbestos, airborne asbestos, to workers; so, the work had 3 Q That is not nearly focused enough for me. 4 primarily been done. 4 MR. MORFORD: I'll give you the exhibit. 5 With respect to brake linings, Otis couldn't get 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 the material out of the brake linings until another 6 A Chronic overexposure may cause asbestosis and 7 brake lining was found, so what were we supposed to do? 7 cancer. 8 What was anybody supposed to do? Put brakes on elevators, 8 Q And then under other potential health risks at 9 don't put brakes on elevators? 9 the bottom, it says: "Asbestos is listed as carcinogenic 10 So there was no airborne exposure from those 10 by the National Toxicology Program." 11 products. Was safety a concern? Absolutely. A 11 A I think the key word is "chronic overexposure," 12 tremendous amount of testing done by Otis in 1983 and '84 12 Jessica; right? So every company has to make sure they 13 to make sure that there was no exposure from asbestos in 13 don't have an overexposure. Otis made sure we did not 14 the workplace, and so safety was a driving concern. 14 have an overexposure. 15 Had we found that there was a problem with 15 Therefore, this is a warning document: Go test, 16 asbestos in the workplace, it would have turned the entire 16 go find out, which we did. We found out we did not have 17 elevator industry upside down. We wouldn't be working on 17 an overexposure and took appropriate precautions. 18 elevators today the way we are working on them. So 18 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 19 safety's always been a driving concern. 19 Q So the question I said is, did I read this 20 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portions. 20 correctly? "Asbestos is listed as a carcinogenic by the 21 Q Otis admits that you're exposed to asbestos when 21 National Toxicology Program? 22 you remove brakes, when you remove brake linings; is that 22 A If that's what you're reading, yes. 23 fair? 23 Q And it's Otis's position that their 24 A There's a potential for exposure if you were 24 brake linings couldn't harm a soul? 25 going to replace brake linings in the field, that's the 25 A It is our position, based on scientific testing, 43 (Pages 169 to 172) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 173 Page 175 1 that the chronic over-exposure did not occur working on 1 A Okay. 2 Otis brake linings. 2 Q Okay. Have you had a chance to look at it? 3 MS. DEAN: I'll object to nonresponsive. 3 A Yes. 4 Q I promise you I'm going to get into those tests, 4 Q I want to put it up here so both of us can look 5 because I think they're very interesting, but -- 5 at it at the same time if it's okay. 6 A Well, they're like .002 and .005 and .008 when 6 A I'm sorry? 7 working on brake linings. 7 MR. MORFORD: Taking the exhibit away from the 8 MR. MORFORD: Wait for a question. 8 witness again? 9 A Brake linings. 9 MS. DEAN: I'm putting it in front of him in 10 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 10 terms of a monitor. 11 Q It's amazing what people can remember. But my 11 MR. MORFORD: In its entirety? 12 question was -- 12 MS. DEAN: If at any point if he wants, we can 13 MR. MORFORD: That's enough. 13 pull it out, yes; otherwise we won't to be able to 14 Q -- despite the MSDS sheet, despite this MSDS 14 read it together. 15 sheet, it's still Otis's position that their brake 15 Or if you want the document back, let me know. 16 linings, asbestos-containing brake linings, could not hurt 16 Q Now, this is a document, an Internal 17 their mechanics; is that fair? 17 Correspondence from Otis elevators from November 4th -- 18 MR. MORFORD: Objection; asked and answered. He 18 I think I turned the whole thing off. 19 already told you what Otis's position is. 19 -- from November 4th, 1986; is that correct? 20 Your characterization of the position, he hasn't 20 A Yes. 21 adopted. You may not like that. He's told you his 21 MS. DEAN: What have I done. 22 position, you keep moving to strike it. I object. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It'll take a second to 23 Q Do you need me to repeat? 23 recycle. 24 A Yes. 24 MS. DEAN: Okay. 25 Q Even after getting this MSDS sheet about the 25 Q And this is from J. Knowles; is that correct? Page 174 Page 176 1 dangers relating to the brake linings, it's Otis's 1 A Yes. 2 position that their asbestos-containing brake linings 2 Q And he was a safety director; correct? 3 could not harm their mechanics. Do I understand that 3 A Yes, he was. 4 correctly? 4 Q And what the second paragraph tells us, is: 5 A Based on the normal work activity that we 5 "As far as potential problems with 6 performed on elevators, the asbestos in the brake linings 6 installation and replacement, the following 7 could not harm any of our employees. 7 precautions should be followed." 8 Q Yet Otis has been warning their employees for a 8 Correct? 9 good long time that they should never attempt lining 9 A Yes. 10 replacement in the field; is that correct? 10 Q And what he's talking about and what the subject 11 A Yes. 11 of the entire document is is brake shoes? 12 Q Because although it's safe, they're just saying 12 A Yes. 13 they should never do it? 13 Q And he says in the third paragraph: 14 A Yes. 14 "The fibers can be released during machine 15 Q I want to show you what I'm going to mark as 15 operations such as drilling and grinding, and 16 Exhibit 10 -- excuse me, Exhibit 11. 16 asbestos-containing dust can accumulate in the 17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 11 was 17 brake housing and wear." 18 marked for identification.) 18 Correct? 19 I want to be able to put this on the sheet but 19 A Yes. 20 I'll give you an opportunity to look at it first before I 20 Q He's talking about people doing drilling and 21 do so. 21 grinding on asbestos shoes; correct? 22 I'll represent to you that the second and third 22 A Yes. He's saying that you can create dust if 23 page of the document are the same MSDS sheets we've been 23 you do those activities. 24 talking about today, so it's the first page I'm going to 24 Q And one the ways that we talked about cleaning 25 be talking about. 25 up dust, or several of the ways, are sweeping, vacuuming 44 (Pages 173 to 176) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 177 Page 179 1 or using a blower? 1 there with a dust mask available, it wasn't a HEPA filter 2 A Yes. 2 cartridge; correct? 3 Q And he goes on to say: 3 A Probably not. 4 "Whenever new shoes have to be worked on, the 4 Q And there wasn't special vacuums that were being 5 employee should wear a respirator equipped with a 5 used? 6 HEPA filter." 6 A Probably not. 7 Correct? 7 Q And Otis wasn't telling people, "You've got to 8 A Yes. 8 wet down these brake linings? 9 Q And it also talks about wetting the 9 A Prior to 1973, no. 10 brake lining; is that correct? 10 Q And even the respirators that were used, they 11 MR. MORFORD: Would you move it up, please, so 11 were usually thin paper masks that with a rubber band on 12 that we can see it too? 12 them; correct? 13 MS. DEAN: It's on the screen. 13 A Yes. 14 MR. MORFORD: The picture Mr. Dowson is blocking 14 Q And you admitted that while those were available 15 the words. Now it's not on the screen. Thank you. 15 you oftentimes never used them? 16 A I think this comes back to the issue, Jessica, 16 A Did I admit that? 17 that if you were going to change brake linings in a field 17 Q Is that true? And then we'll take it from 18 office where you had to do significant work on the brake 18 there. But unless there was concrete work being done, you 19 linings, you would need to wear a HEPA filter and so on. 19 almost never used it; is that fair? 20 You know, my experience is none of this ever 20 A That's fair. 21 happened, because it was just more productive to take the 21 Q And your safety director is requiring these and 22 brake shoes off, send them out to have the brake shoes 22 recommending these extensive steps to take for a danger 23 replaced and brought back to the job site and reinstalled. 23 that Otis claims doesn't exist; is that fair? 24 So it is a warning letter by Mr. Knowles to say 24 A I think he took a very conservative approach in 25 this isn't a good idea, and if you do this you could 25 this letter, yes, because tests had already proven prior Page 178 Page 180 1 create dust, but my experience is it never happened. 1 to this that there was no exposure, even doing this work. 2 Q And what he's saying here is if you do this, you 2 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 3 need to use a HEPA filter respirator; you need to wet down 3 Q But that brings out a point. This is what he 4 the brake linings; and then when you clean up the dust 4 was recommending even after air sampling was done of 5 again, you've got to have a special vacuum cleaner, 5 asbestos? 6 because any old vacuum cleaner won't work because the 6 A He's a safety guy, he's taking a very 7 asbestos dust is so small, so you have to get a HEPA 7 conservative approach, which is what he should do. 8 vacuum cleaner as well; correct? 8 Q Why? 9 MR. MORFORD: Objection, takes it out the 9 A Because safety people should take conservative 10 context of the entire document. 10 approaches, just like OSHA took a conservative approach. 11 Q Am I understanding that document? 11 Q That's what you believe happened, OSHA took a 12 A Yes. 12 conservative approach on the dangers of asbestos? 13 Q That's not taken out of context at all. 13 A Yes. 14 MR. MORFORD: Other than saying it preferably 14 Q Bear with me for a moment while I find a new 15 should be done in the office when possible, which you 15 document. 16 didn't include. 16 MR. MORFORD: Do you need a minute? We've been 17 A So, okay. So all of this is true, it's a good 17 going for a while. 18 recommendation. I can see why Mr. Knowles did this at th e 18 MS. DEAN: We have been. If you really want a 19 time. 19 break -- 20 Q And the recommendation was related to safety 20 MR. MORFORD: Do you want to stretch your legs? 21 requirements that needed to take place to guard yourself 21 Whatever you want. 22 from asbestos dust when working with brake linings? 22 THE WITNESS: I'm fine. 23 A Yes. 23 MS. DEAN: Let's see. I'm going to mark the 24 Q Now, you or Mr. Engle or an elevator mechanic 24 Otis Employee Safety Handbook as Exhibit 12. 25 back in the '60s and '70s were doing this kind of work, if 25 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12 was marked for 45 (Pages 177 to 180) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 181 Page 183 1 identification.) 1 there is no risk posed to any asbestos in our job? 2 Q I'll give you an opportunity to read that for a 2 MR. MORFORD: Objection. You're 3 moment. As you're reviewing it, the question I'm going to 3 mischaracterizing his testimony, Jessica. He said in 4 first ask you again is if you can tell me when this 4 relation to our products, not in relation to the job, 5 employee handbook was used. 5 there's a big difference between the two. Your 6 A Well, unfortunately, it's not dated, but my 6 confusion of them in the question is really unfair to 7 recollection is it was produced around the early '90s, 7 the witness. 8 '92, '93 era, but it does not say that. 8 A Restate the question, Jessica, please. 9 Q What time frame did you say again? I apologize. 9 Q Let's do it this way. Would you say that on -- 10 A Around '92 to '93. 10 according to the employee manuals, not just in '92 but in 11 MR. MORFORD: Who was the president? 11 general, that the order that Otis was giving its field 12 THE WITNESS: Who was president, correct. 12 mechanics in the mid- to the late 1980s was that if they 13 Q Could you find him there? 13 had any suspicion that there was any asbestos, that they 14 A No, just the president. 14 were to stop work, contact their supervisor, and basically 15 MR. MORFORD: No, just trying to find out who 15 get off the job until the situation was safe? 16 the president of Otis was. 16 A Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: At that time. 17 Q But Otis is now saying in 2007 that this 18 MR. MORFORD: Maybe that'll help you give some 18 situation was safe, that there's no reason to stop? 19 context to it. 19 A You have to understand that in general the 20 MS. DEAN: Oh, makes good sense. 20 situation is safe. But mechanics, elevator mechanics at 21 Q And if you look to page 48 of the Bates label, 21 Otis, are sometimes faced with unusual conditions. And 22 which was page 40 of the safety handbook, I'd like to ask 22 that might be a call comes in from a customer where we 23 you some questions about that too. 23 don't maintain the equipment, and we ask one our mechanics 24 A Okay. 24 to go to a building they've never been to before and fix 25 Q This is an Employee Safety Handbook from 25 an elevator, because the customer is willing to pay Page 182 Page 184 1 approximately 1992, and this is a section dedicated to 1 Otis Elevator Company to come and fix their elevator. 2 asbestos; correct? 2 That mechanic arrives at the building, he's 3 A Yes. 3 never seen it before. He doesn't like what he see's 4 Q Okay. And one the things it tells its elevator 4 because it's unusual. He might see asbestos insulation or 5 mechanics, because that's who this is targeted to, is 5 insulation that he thinks is asbestos because he's not 6 that: 6 familiar with it. We wanted to give the mechanic that 7 "If you suspect that asbestos is present, 7 opportunity to say, "I don't feel comfortable here in this 8 contact your supervisors immediately, and stay out 8 environment." 9 of the area until otherwise directed by your 9 I'm giving you an example of why we had to write 10 supervisor." 10 to mechanics that way. Because mechanics sometimes, 11 Correct? 11 because of the course of the nature of our business, were 12 A Yes. 12 the first people to the scene of a building. It wasn't 13 Q And it then goes on to say in Service and 13 always a supervisor or a salesman or a manager, in the 14 Maintenance, that: 14 perfect world, it would be, but it isn't always that way. 15 "Otis personnel are not to clean up any 15 So this is a way of saying to them, "You have our 16 hoistways, car tops, pits, machine rooms, 16 authorization to stop work if you're suspicious of 17 et cetera." 17 something." 18 Correct? 18 That also applied to everything, Jessica, right 19 A When asbestos is involved, correct, while 19 when it came to safety, it didn't just apply to asbestos. 20 asbestos abatement projects are in progress. 20 So you're trying to empower the mechanic to say, "If it's 21 Q If Otis is telling its field mechanics, "If you 21 not safe to work here, I don't feel comfortable working oi 22 have any suspicion about any asbestos," that they are to 22 this elevator, it doesn't have a top car inspection unit 23 stop work and contact their supervisor and stay away until 23 and I can't ride safely through the hoistway, I can call 24 they're safe, it's safe, do you think that's at all 24 my supervisor and do something about it." 25 contradictory to the position that they're saying that 25 So it was an empowerment era that we were going 46 (Pages 181 to 184) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 185 Page 187 1 through, trying to empower the mechanics to also be part 1 paint, cleaners, other exposures in the workplace. 2 of the solution. At no time did we ever say there's no 2 So two years prior to OSHA releasing any 3 potential for exposure to asbestos, and so we're trying to 3 legislation, workplace legislation, Otis started to look 4 education our workforce to that degree. 4 at all of those issues differently. Because it had become 5 Q But if they're part of the solution, there has 5 aware by experts that were reporting to OSHA that people 6 to be a problem; right? I mean, does Otis recognize that 6 could be harmed chronically or acutely by exposures from 7 there's even potential problems with asbestos exposure 7 chemicals, paint, cleaners, asbestos and other related 8 when doing elevator mechanic work? 8 fumes, I guess you would say, exposures. 9 A My experience has been, numerous calls came in 9 Q Okay. I want to ask you about that. 10 to me as a regional safety manager about mechanics havin g 10 MS. DEAN: I'm going to object; nonresponsive. 11 some fear when we had building owners test those 11 Q I just first want to personally look at -- I'm 12 buildings, did air monitoring in those buildings in the 12 going to ask about when Otis claims it first had knowledge 13 elevator shafts, we found no exposure to the mechanics. 13 about asbestos in a minute. 14 So, you know, it was right they were concerned; but, when 14 But it's your contention that you first 15 they brought the concern to us, I don't remember any case 15 understood that there was a potential health threat posed 16 where that concern was real. 16 to individuals from asbestos in 1980; is that fair? 17 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 portion. 18 A In 1973 when OSHA enacted, started to talk about 19 Q Is this still the instruction that they give in 19 asbestos, the Otis Elevator Company and other companies, 20 2007 for Otis elevator mechanics? 20 we started to become aware that asbestos was harmful to 21 A I'm not 100 percent sure but I would probably 21 employees. 22 think it is very similar. I haven't looked at it lately. 22 Q What year was that? 23 Q Otis admits that the first information that went 23 A 1973, I believe. 24 to Otis mechanics in the field was their field safety 24 Q Okay. Do you recall giving a deposition again 25 mechanic book in 1986 about referencing asbestos and its 25 in the Dalquist case? Page 186 Page 188 1 dangers; is that fair? 1 A I gave a deposition, yes. 2 A Yes. 2 Q And you were under oath? 3 Q Otis made no effort to notify the owners of the 3 A Yes. 4 buildings where Otis installed asbestos-containing 4 Q And your attorney was present? 5 components to let those owners know that there was 5 A Yes. 6 asbestos in the elevators in their buildings; did they? 6 Q I'm going to draw your attention to page 34 of 7 A Not that I'm aware of. 7 that deposition. 8 Q And they made no efforts to warn other elevator 8 You were asked: "Was 1983 the first time you 9 personnel who could be working on their equipment through 9 became aware of any health hazard associated with 10 warning signs or manuals? 10 asbestos?" 11 A No, I don't think there was any reason to. 11 MR. MORFORD: What page is that? 12 Q Specifically in terms of your position that Otis 12 MS. DEAN: Now on the top of 35. 13 is progressing about safety, I want to talk about safety 13 Q And your answer was: 14 in relation to asbestos. You agree with me that 14 1983 was approximately the time I became aware 15 progressive is kind of the idea that you're ahead of the 15 of concerns around asbestos, yes." 16 game? 16 First of all, did I read that correctly? 17 A Yes. 17 A Right. That was me personally, and now I'm 18 Q Wouldn't -- specifically to you as opposed to 18 answering for Otis Elevator Company. 19 Otis Elevator, your claim is that you didn't realize until 19 Q Right. And -- 20 1983 that asbestos could pose potential health problems to 20 MR. MORFORD: You've got the confusion of "you" 21 individuals; correct? 21 again. 22 A By 1983, OSHA was already working on the 22 Q I want to clarify for the third time in this 23 beginnings of hazard communications, and it became 23 question. And I'm not asking about Otis, I'm asking 24 apparent to all general industry that hazard 24 specifically about you. 25 communications covered numerous things: Use of chemicals, 25 You believe that the first time you were aware 47 (Pages 185 to 188) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 189 Page 191 1 of any health hazards associated with asbestos would have 1 Q And as a construction foreman or superintendent 2 been around 1983? 2 you had been working for Otis -- 3 A I would say the first time it impacted me in my 3 A Since 1966. 4 position in the field that I -- that we may have to 4 Q Right. But you had also been working for Otis 5 approach our workplace differently was in 1983, yes. 5 for two or three years when they understood asbestos was 6 Q Other than just in your field, I mean, the 6 dangerous but that hadn't been communicated to you; 7 question that was asked you was the first time you became 7 correct? 8 aware of any health hazards associated with asbestos, was 8 A I don't know really what you're trying to say. 9 that at some time earlier or was that in 1983? 9 Now let me answer for Otis. Otis recognized 10 A I'm sure it was much earlier than that, that it 10 that in 1973, when OSHA enacted legislation regarding 11 was associated with people typically who worked with 12 asbestos, not with elevator work. 13 Q So this answer was just wrong? 14 A No, that answer was not wrong. It's pretty 11 asbestos, that there were some concerns about asbestos 12 causing harm to employees. 13 The elevator industry did not feel like that 14 applied to the elevator people because they weren't 15 accurate, actually. 16 Q Let's look at it again. 15 working with asbestos, they didn't install asbestos. So 16 the feeling at that era was that didn't apply to the 17 MR. MORFORD: The answer in the deposition, you 17 elevator workers. 18 mean? 18 And I would have to say that they were pretty 19 MS. DEAN: Yes. 19 accurate, because when they did their tests at Otis in 20 Q The question is -- 20 1983, it held true that there was zero exposure to 21 A I was being asked when I became aware of it in 21 asbestos while installing, servicing, maintaining the 22 the workplace. 22 elevators. 23 Q The question is -- 23 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 24 A When did I hear about asbestos? 24 Q I swear, I'll get to those tests. 25 MR. MORFORD: Take a look at the question. 25 But the question was -- I'll back up on the Page 190 Page 192 1 Q Mr. Greenstone asked you, said: 1 question. You've testified before, and Otis claims, that 2 "Thank you, sir. Was 1983 the first time you 2 they didn't know asbestos could potentially cause harm in 3 became aware of any health hazards associated with 3 humans until 1972; is that right? 4 asbestos?" 4 A Correct. 5 And your answer was: "1983 was approximately 5 Q And during 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975, there was 6 the time I became aware of concerns around 6 still asbestos components that were being worked on and 7 asbestos, yes." 7 installed by Otis Elevator mechanics; correct? 8 A Okay. Then I misspoke. 8 A Yes. 9 Q When do you think you first started realizing 9 Q And no where during that time were you informed, 10 that there were potential harms to people from exposure to 10 or at least not until 1975, as a construction 11 asbestos? 11 superintendent about any dangers associated with asbestos; 12 MR. MORFORD: Him, personally? 12 is that fair? 13 A Me, personally? 13 A Right. That's fair. Employees were installing 14 Q Yes. 14 components that contained asbestos, Jessica, they were not 15 A Probably in the mid-'70s. 15 manipulating the asbestos at Otis Elevator Company; 16 Q Okay. Would it have been before or after 1972? 16 therefore, they were not exposed to the asbestos at Otis 17 A After 1972. 17 Elevator Company. 18 Q Can you give me an idea of how much after? 18 Q And you've alluded to this several times, but 19 A No. Mid-'70s, I would say mid-'75. 19 you believe that the general industry, as opposed to, for 20 Q What position were you in 1975? 20 instance the general public, did not become aware of the 21 A I was construction super -- no, I was a 21 problem relating to asbestos until about 1972 when the 22 construction foreman. 22 OSHA regulations came out; is that fair? 23 Q So that's before you became a field operations 23 A That's fair. 24 manager? 24 Q Okay. Is it your belief as a former 25 A Yes. 25 environmental health and safety program director, that 48 (Pages 189 to 192) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 193 Page 195 1 asbestos fibers only create a health hazard when you're 1 that you should take action. 2 exposed to excessive amounts of them? 2 MS. DEAN: Objection to the nonresponsive 3 A Whenever you're exposed to the amounts laid out 3 portions. 4 by OSHA, in excess of those amounts, are you subject to 4 Q Is it Otis's belief that the 1972 level for 5 any concern, yes. 5 asbestos exposure was conservative? 6 Q And that may be saying the same thing, but 6 MR. MORFORD: Currently or back then? 7 not -- as opposed to excessive set amount, is it your 7 Q At any time. 8 belief that excessive -- that you have to have an 8 A I think from 1972, it was considered 9 excessive amount of asbestos exposure before there is any 9 conservative. 10 kind of health hazard? 10 Q Do you believe it's conservative now? 11 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 11 A As it got lowered over the years, I think today 12 A The PELs set by OSHA is very conservative, 12 it's at .1, so it changed. 13 providing that your workplace did not exceed those values , 13 Q And is it Otis's position that .1 is a safe 14 there was no acute or chronic exposure. 14 level, that if you keep it -- if you keep it below that 15 MS. DEAN: Okay. Let's switch real quick. 15 you're being safe? 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 3:18 p.m., off the 16 A Yes. 17 record. 17 Q So Otis has never told you that its position of 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 18 anyone, any expert in World Organization, anyone 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record, 3:27 p.m. 19 evaluating asbestos, that that's not safe, that there's no 20 BY MS. DEAN: 20 such thing as a safe level of exposure to asbestos? 21 Q I want to understand if this is your opinion. 21 A I can only rephrase your question in the answer 22 If I were to ask you about the inhalation of asbestos 22 that says that all of our tests over -- which was 23 fibers and whether they presented a health hazard, it was 23 equivalent to one employee working for six months in the 24 my understanding that you believed asbestos fibers only 24 workplace, their exposure was .015. That is well, well 25 create a health hazard when you're exposed to excessive 25 below the OSHA standard; therefore, no reason for Otis t Page 194 Page 196 1 amounts. Is that your opinion? 1 be concerned about exposure in the workplace. 2 A It is my opinion when exposed to amounts above 2 Had it been .11 or .19 or something like that, 3 the threshold set by OSHA, you've got exposure, yes. 3 close to the OSHA level, I think we would be in a totally 4 Q Here's the problem I'm having understanding 4 different conversation. 5 that. You've said a couple of times you believe the 5 MS. DEAN: Object; nonresponsive. 6 amount set by OSHA is conservative? 6 Q And I mean this with all due respect, but I 7 A Yes. 7 understand you believe there's import to those tests that 8 Q Conservative and excessive don't usually go 8 we probably don't agree on. We are going to talk about 9 hand-and-hand, in my mind. If your opinion is that it has 9 those tests. 10 to be excessive amount of asbestos fibers to have a 10 But my question is, has it ever been 11 danger, then that doesn't seem to be hand-in-hand with 11 communicated to you from Otis that there are bodies and 12 only a conservative amount causing harm. So which is it? 12 experts that believe that there's no safe level of 13 A What I mean is, is that I think -- I believe, 13 exposure to asbestos? 14 OSHA, with all of their experts, and their sole purpose 14 A Our guideline is OSHA. 15 for existence to protect employees, set a conservative 15 Q Okay. Are you aware that OSHA's position, as 16 level for exposure. I believe that if you come anywhere 16 early as October 2005, is that there is not a recognized 17 close to that limit set by OSHA, that you should take 17 safe level of asbestos exposure? Is that something Otis 18 action. 18 has ever told you? 19 As proven by I think in 1983 when we went to the 19 A What did you say? I'm sorry, Jessica, could you 20 World Trade Center and we did tests on not only asbestos 20 repeat that? 21 but a number of other products that we were using. And w e 21 Q As early as 2005, are you aware that OSHA has a 22 found that one of the chemicals we were using created an 22 position that the agency does not recognize a safe level 23 over-exposure, we withdrew it from the workplace and 24 banned it from use. I think that when you get close to an 23 of asbestos exposure? 24 MR. mOrFORD: Objection; foundation. 25 exposure set by OSHA or by a manufacturer of a product 25 A I've never seen that document, and I don't know 49 (Pages 193 to 196) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 197 Page 199 1 that they changed their PELs. 1 being associated with chrysotile are very serious 2 Q Okay. Is that information that was ever 2 in nature, namely, lung cancer and mesothelioma." 3 communicated to you? 3 Has that ever been communicated to you? 4 A No, I don't recall that ever was. 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 Q Were you aware that the U.S. Consumer Product 5 A No. 6 Safety Commission held the position that it should be 6 Q A more recent World Health Organization May 5th, 7 noted that while asbestos levels may vary, they do not 7 2006 document, indicates that they have done -- they have 8 change the fact that there is no known level below which 8 done basically a test with the International Agency for 9 inhalation of asbestos can be considered safe? Is that 9 Research on Cancer and determined the following results: 10 something that has ever been communicated to you? 10 "One, all types of asbestos causes asbestosis, 11 MR. MORFORD: Objection; foundation. 11 mesothelioma, and lung cancer; 12 A No, I'm not aware of that. 12 "Two, there is no safe threshold level of 13 Q Did Otis ever inform you the Consumer Product 13 exposure." 14 Safety Commission indicated that the commission noted that 14 Has that been communicated to you? 15 in the scientific literature: "There is a general 15 A No. 16 agreement that there is no known threshold level below 16 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 which exposure to free-form asbestos would be considered 17 Q Have you been told anything about how the Center 18 safe"? 18 for Disease Control and Prevention, which is the 19 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 19 Department of Health and Human Services, feels about 20 A No, I didn't know. 20 levels of exposure to asbestos that are safe? 21 Q Were you made aware of the World Trade 21 A No. 22 Organization's position on asbestos? 22 Q It's never been told to you that mesothelioma 23 A No. 23 has occurred following short-term asbestos exposures for 24 Q Were you ever told that they found that there is 24 only a few weeks? 25 no minimum threshold level of exposure or duration of 25 A No. Page 198 Page 200 1 exposure that's been identified in terms of measuring 1 Q Or that it can come from very low levels of 2 asbestos and asbestos being safe? 2 exposure? 3 MR. MORFORD: When? 3 A No. 4 A When? 4 Q Is it Otis's position that it was reasonable for 5 MS. DEAN: September 18, 2000, or at any point 5 them not to be aware that asbestos could cause danger even 6 in time. 6 though they had asbestos-containing components until 1972? 7 A What seems unusual, Jessica, is that the 7 A Please repeat your question. 8 workplace OSHA regulations haven't changed in spite o: ' 8 Q We've established that Otis contends it didn't 9 everything you just read there. 9 even know that asbestos could cause harm until around 10 Q And we can talk about that. 10 1972; correct? 11 MS. DEAN: I'm going to object as nonresponsive. 11 A Yes. 12 Q The World Trade Center's position in 2001 or 12 Q Given that they used asbestos-containing 13 2008 or at any other time, has that ever been something 13 products and sold them, do you think it's reasonable that 14 explained to you as safety director for the company? 14 they weren't aware of dangers associated with asbestos 15 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 until as late as 1972? 16 A No. 16 A Yes, I think it's reasonable. 17 Q March 12, 2001, the World Trade Commission put 17 Q You've been asked numerous times about different 18 out a position paper that said: 18 trade organizations, safety organizations and journals 19 "The panel found on the basis of the 19 that Otis Elevator may have been a member of; correct? 20 scientific evidence that no minimum threshold of 20 A Yes. 21 level of exposure or durations of exposure has been 21 Q And you've been asked about the National Safety 22 identified with regard to the risk of pathology 22 Council? 23 associated with chrysotile except as it relates to 23 A Correct. 24 asbestosis. 24 Q And ASME? 25 "The pathology which the panel identified as 25 A Correct. 50 (Pages 197 to 200) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 201 Page 203 1 Q And your belief is that they weren't members of 1 A Yes. 2 those organizations? 2 Q Okay. And what I did was, searching this 3 A That's correct. 3 document is not easy, but I did the best I could to find 4 Q The only one that you're aware of is NEII? 4 out when Otis was in here. If you turn, for instance, to 5 A That's correct. 5 page 227. 6 Q Did you ever search to find out if they were 6 MR. MORFORD: 227? 7 members of those organizations? 7 MS. DEAN: Excuse me, 209. 227 is the next 8 MR. MORFORD: Do you mean you, Pat Dowson, or 8 document. 9 you, Otis? 9 MR. MORFORD: It's kind of odd, Jessica. It 10 Q Has Otis Elevator done anything to figure out if 10 goes 61, 62, 63, 64, and then 202. I object to the 11 they were members of those organizations? 11 exhibit. But what page are you on? 12 A I personally searched that and researched that 12 MS. DEAN: We can get a completed copy. 227, or 13 in 2003, 2004, and I could not find out any evidence that 13 209, excuse me. 14 the corporation was ever a member of those organizations 14 Q What that represents is that in Little Rock 15 The only organization was NEII. 15 there was somebody by the name of Robert Hall? 16 Q Did you ever find out if important members of 16 A Right. 17 Otis's organization, its employees, like the president, 17 Q Who was a mechanic for Otis Elevators Company 18 the engineer, the safety council leader? 18 that was part of this membership list; correct? 19 A None of them were members, no. Did we buy any 19 A Yes. 20 information from the National Safety Organization? Yes. 20 Q And I'll represent to you what that "J" stands 21 Q Did you find any employee at any time that was a 21 for is the year they joined in the membership, and that 22 member of ASME, International Safety Council? 22 says '24 here; correct? 23 A No, I didn't. 23 A Yes. 24 Q What did you do to find out? 24 Q I'm not going to show you any these but I want 25 A Inquired, sent e-mails, and, you know, did a 25 to scan through a few of them to get an idea of what I Page 202 Page 204 1 search of people that I thought would know at the time the 1 found to see if you agree with the way I'm at least 2 answer to that question, but never found any positive 2 reading the document. 3 answer. 3 On page 227, if you look -- first of all these 4 Q Did you ever ask anybody from the actual 4 are members that are in San Francisco; correct? 5 organizations? 5 A Yes. 6 A One thing I'm absolutely sure of, Jessica, there 6 Q And if you look third to the bottom, they show 7 was no one at the corporate level that were ever involved 7 that there's a Daniel Topanelli, who's part of the 8 in any organizations except NEII. 8 construction department for Otis Elevator Company, who 9 Q I want to first talk to you about ASME. 9 joined in 1925; correct? 10 I'm going to hand you what we're going to mark 10 A Yes. 11 as an exhibit. It'll be Exhibit Number 13. 11 Q And if you move to page 287, you see that 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 13 was marked for 12 there's an employee -- well, first of all, it's part of 13 identification.) 13 membership list from Chicago, Illinois? 14 I'm going to ask you if you've ever seen that 14 A Uh-huh. 15 document before. 15 Q And it indicates under the name Zepernick, that 16 A I can definitely say I've never seen this 16 William Zepernick was an Otis employee that joined ASME in 17 document before. 17 25; correct? 18 MR. MORFORD: Answer the questions. 18 A Yes. 19 Q You can keep that copy for now. What this is, 19 Q If you look to page 314, we're in the Baltimore, 20 will you agree with me that the title page of this 20 Maryland area, and it indicates that Richard Haworth was a 21 document states a Membership List from 1928 for the 21 local manager for Otis Elevator that had joined in 1927; 22 American Society of Mechanical Engineers? 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 23 A Right. And it proves my point that no one from 24 Q And I call it ASME, when I'm referring to ASME, 24 corporate was ever a member of this organization. 25 it's the American Society of Mechanical Engineers; right? 25 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 51 (Pages 201 to 204) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 205 Page 207 1 Q We'll get there. 1 Q It's high up there, is what I mean. We're 2 Do you see on page 457 that we're at members 2 talking about president, vice president. 3 from New York City, New York? 3 MR. MORFORD: Object. 4 A I'm on page 457. 4 A Vice president of something, okay. I don't know 5 Q And that's for members in New York City, 5 what their organization looked like in 1918. 6 New York; is that correct? 6 Q I will represent to you there are another dozen 7 A Yes. 7 or so employees in New York. 8 Q And there under the names Walter Bradley in the 8 MR. MORFORD: Do you want us to stipulate that 9 second column, and immediately underneath that Thomas 9 in 1928 membership list for ASME contains a number of 10 Brady, we see two different employees, Otis Elevator 10 names from Otis Elevator Company? We will. 11 employees, including a Pat Lingerer? 11 Q Okay. They also show membership in Argentina 12 A Yes. 12 and Pennsylvania, does that surprise you at all? 13 Q And one those employees have been part of ASME 13 A I don't know what to think. 14 since 1919; is that correct? 14 Q I'm going to hand you a 1935 document that I'm 15 A Yes. 15 going to mark as Exhibit 14, and I'll represent to you -- 16 Q The next reference is on 467, we're still in New 16 I have two copies of this one -- that this is just a later 17 York City, New York. And if you look a little more than 17 date for ASME membership lists. 18 halfway down the page, at the second column, you can see 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 14 was marked for 19 that Chas. Gervanni was a draftsman for Otis Elevator who 19 identification.) 20 had joined in 1926; do you see that? 20 MR. MORFORD: Who? ASME? 21 A I haven't found them, but that's okay. 21 MS. DEAN: Yeah. Just another ten or 15 years 22 Q Look on 469. The second column you'll see 22 later. 23 Edward Dunn and Parker Dunning; do you see that? 23 MR. MORFORD: How about this, Jessica? I'll try 24 A Yes. 24 to make things easy for you. To the extent there are 25 Q And they are a design engineer and a research 25 names in any of those membership lists for ASME from Page 206 Page 208 1 engineer that were members of ASME from Otis Elevator 1 2 Company, one that joined in 1918 and one in 1921; is that 2 3 true? 3 4 A Yes. 4 5 Q Let's look to page 472, Edward Fitch. Edward 5 6 Fitch, it indicates, is an Otis Elevator employee starting 6 7 in 1921; correct? 7 8 A Yes. 8 9 Q And he was a vice president? 9 10 A Did you say Fish or Fitch? 10 11 Q Fitch, F-I-T-C-H, they abbreviate the first 11 12 name, Edw., says VP, Otis Elevators, and gives you a 12 13 Yonkers address. 13 14 A I can't find that. Did I miss it? 14 15 MR. MORFORD: Right here. 15 16 Q I'll highlight it. 16 17 MR. MORFORD: No, we got it. 17 18 A I was looking for F-I-S-H. 18 19 Q And you also note another draftsman, a Stephen 19 20 Fritsch, F-R-I-T-S-C-H, that was an Otis Elevator person; 20 21 correct? 21 22 A Yes. 22 23 Q And it's fair to say a vice president is about 23 24 as corporate as you can get? 24 25 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 25 Otis Elevator Company, we'll so stipulate. MS. DEAN: Okay. MR. MORFORD: We looked around starting in 200( or so, we didn't find anybody who was a member of any organization or who knew of anyone from the past who had been a member of any organization. So, I mean, I'm trying to shorten the time. The words on the page are words on the page. If it says John Doe, Otis Elevator Company, in the membership list, if we can validate their authentication membership list, it is what it is. MS. DEAN: Can we do the same for 15 and 16? MR. MORFORD: That's the 1934, '35 membership list of ASME? MS. DEAN: And I have a 1953. MR. MORFORD: Okay. My stipulation is, if the names are in there, the names are in there. Is that fair enough? MS. DEAN: Yeah. I'm going to verify for '53 just one name, I'll just pick one out randomly, just so that when we're talking it's not a question mark on whether they were members. (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 15 and 16 were marked for identification.) MS. DEAN: Well, actually not. The list that 52 (Pages 205 to 208) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 209 Page 211 1 indicates what page they're on is not here. To find 1 "It is well known that the inhalation of 2 that would take me about an hour, so -- 2 certain industrial dust is an important factor in 3 Q I want to talk to you about some of the 3 causing occupational disabilities. Dust such as 4 literature that was produced by ASME during the time frame 4 granite has been shown to produce fibrosis in the 5 when there were numerous members of Otis Elevator from 5 lungs which is often associated with tuberculosis, 6 engineers to vice presidents that were member -- members 6 while other dusts, such as asbestos, cement, slate, 7 of Otis -- 7 et cetera, are stated -- are stated to produce a 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 8 varying degree of fibrosis." 9 Q I mean of ASME. 9 Do you see that? 10 MR. MORFORD: If you have vice presidents in 10 A Yes. 11 other years or other corporate employees, maybe you 11 Q And this is certainly information that was 12 should pull that out, if you're going to phrase your 12 available to employees at Otis Elevator when it was 13 questions that way. If your question's going to be 13 written; correct? 14 people who worked for Otis Elevator Company, when you 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 say things like from engineers to vice presidents, I 15 Answer her out loud, she can't hear you. 16 will object. 16 A No, I don't know that. 17 MS. DEAN: I'll rephrase my question to make it 17 Q Well, given that they were members starting as 18 accurate regardless of what the rest of the documents 18 early as 1912, in some of those documents, and as late as 19 show. 19 the 1950s, this would be something was at least accessible 20 Q And that is, during the time frame when we know 20 to people that worked for Otis? 21 that a vice president of Otis as well as numerous 21 MR. MORFORD: It says how you get it on the 22 engineers and draftsmen were a member of ASME, I want to 22 bottom of the front page, you had to pay for it, even 23 show you something about literature starting with 23 if you're a member; so, it was accessible like every 24 Exhibit 17. 24 other article ever written. 25 MR. MORFORD: Objection. This document is from 25 MS. DEAN: Any more coaching? Page 210 Page 212 1 '33, the vice president was on the '28 list. 1 MR. MORFORD: I wasn't coaching, it just is what 2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 17 was marked for 2 it is. Let's be honest about what the document says. 3 identification.) 3 I agree with you, it's accessible if they pay the 4 Q Have you seen this before? 4 money just like any other citizen. 5 A No, I have not seen this before. 5 MS. DEAN: We're going to follow up on that 6 Q This is published by the American Society of 6 because I think it's fun. 7 Mechanical Engineers; correct? 7 Q Did Otis have $1.50 to buy -- to buy articles 8 A Yes. 8 that would help them with safety issues? 9 Q And it's called Mechanical Engineering; correct? 9 MR. MORFORD: Otis wasn't a member, before you 10 A Yes. 10 start changing it around. 11 Q And it's October 1933, correct? 11 Q Did Otis Elevators have $1.50 available to them 12 A Yes. 12 to pay for documents that would help them with safety 13 Q And one of the articles that are featured in 13 issues during at any period of time from 1853 to today? 14 this publication are "The Control of Industrial Dust;" 14 A I have no idea under what context these people 15 correct? 15 became members of this, whether they became individual 16 A Yes. 16 members based on their own abilities to become members an 17 Q If you turn the next page, that's that article. 17 they put down Otis Elevator Company as their association, 18 Again it's called "Industrial Dust" or "The Control of 18 that's their job, or whether they had the permission of 19 Industrial Dust, The Problems of Local Exhaust and General 19 Otis Elevator Company to even be a member, what their 20 Ventilation." It's by J. M. Dallavalle; do you see that? 20 purpose was. I don't have any idea. 21 A What am I seeing? 21 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 22 Q Just the title and the author of the document. 22 Q That was the question I wanted to start off with 23 A Yeah. Yes. 23 but your lawyer interrupted, so I want to establish 24 Q And if you read the very first two sentences, it 24 something real important. 25 says: 25 The 75 cents, or $1.50 if you're in another 53 (Pages 209 to 212) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 213 Page 215 1 country, or 60 cents to get a copy of this document would 1 Q It's true that at least starting the 1930s, 2 have never been a prohibitive reason for Otis to get 2 asbestos-containing components were used by Otis and sold 3 available information; would you agree? Two bucks doesn' 3 by Otis? 4 mean anything to Otis if they have valuable information; 4 A Probably. 5 is that true? 5 Q And it wasn't until the 1980s that they did any 6 A I don't know the answer to your question, I 6 kind of study or analysis for problems related to asbestos 7 don't know how to answer your question. 7 dust when using their products; is that true? 8 Q If Otis -- 8 A That's correct. 9 A If we're talking about today. 9 Q That's 50 years almost after this article? 10 MR. MORFORD: Just tell her, tell her the truth 10 A Right. 11 like I always tell you to. 11 Q There are about four more of these I want to 12 A The truth is that Otis would do anything to 12 talk with you about. 13 protect our employees in the workplace. If they meant 13 Do you mind if I switch with you? I put the 14 spending $2, obviously, they would do it. 14 exhibit stickers on this one. Thank you. 15 Q Fair enough. And there were employees, 15 In terms of what, this is very similar, it's 16 including engineers and draftsmen, that were part of this 16 another article, Mechanical Engineering article published 17 organization; correct? 17 by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. That's 18 MR. MORFORD: In 1928. 18 from April 1933; correct? 19 A In 1928. 19 A Yes. 20 Q And 1912 and in 1953 and in 1930 and in 1945. 20 Q Okay. And there's another "Dust in Industry" 21 If we need to go through that today for you to answer that 21 article that is featured in this volume by ASME; correct? 22 question, we can. 22 A Yes. 23 A What's the question? I'm sorry, Jessica, I 23 Q And what I want to look at is that actual 24 don't know. 24 article, "Dust in Industry, The Sampling and Analysis of 25 Q There were employees that were members of ASME 25 Industrial Dust," by J.J. Bloomingdale; do you see that? Page 214 Page 216 1 that certainly could have obtained this information? 1 A Yes. 2 A If they were aware of it and they wanted it, I'm 2 Q If you go to the second column, it talks about 3 sure they could have obtained it. 3 "The Nature of the Dust," do you see that? The very first 4 Q And certainly someone that's a member of the 4 paragraph on "The Nature of Dust"? 5 organization is going to have more access and 5 A Yes. 6 understanding of what that organization does than someone 6 Q And it says: 7 that doesn't even know the organization exists? 7 "Research on the problem of industrial dust 8 A I don't know if you belong to any organizations, 8 inhalation has demonstrated that so far as their 9 I belong to a few, and you mostly work on the things that 9 fibrous-producing qualities are concerned, dust may 10 you're working on, Jessica. There's a host of information 10 be divided three groups: Those that composed 11 available to you. Do you go and research it all and read 11 completely ..." Wait a second, "...those composed 12 it all? Not necessarily. 12 completely of combined silica, that is silicates 13 MR. MORFORD: Just answer her questions. 13 such as pure asbestos..." and then it goes on to 14 Q Now, this isn't something that anybody from Otis 14 list two other types; do you see that? 15 or any lawyer retained by Otis ever showed to you; 15 A Yes. 16 correct? 16 Q The first type that they identify as a dust that 17 A No, I've never seen this before. 17 can cause fibrosis is asbestos or at least includes 18 Q And one of the things that ASME is telling 18 asbestos? 19 people in this article is that in every case a careful 19 A It includes asbestos, correct. 20 study and analysis of the problem is necessary so that the 20 Q I want to go through portions of the article 21 dust concentrations may be reduced to safe limits; do you 21 with you. 22 see that? 22 It says: "The abundant evidence at hand 23 A Yes. 23 showing that ... " 24 Q Do you agree with that? 24 Excuse me. Let me start over. 25 A Yes. 25 "The abundance evidence at hand showing that 54 (Pages 213 to 216) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 217 Page 219 1 inhalation of certain industrial dust is an 1 type of asbestos and its asbestos components until the 2 important factor in the causation of the pulmonary 2 1980s? 3 disease and emphasizes the significance of the 3 A That's correct. 4 quantitative aspects of this problem. A knowledge 4 MR. MORFORD: I object to that question. 5 of the dust content of the industrial atmosphere is 5 A Found there was no exposure in 1983. 6 required not only for the purpose of determining 6 MS. DEAN: I'll object to the nonresponsive 7 the extent of the hazard involved in various 7 portions. 8 manufacturing processes, but is also useful in 8 Q If you look to page 232 of the article, the 9 measuring the efficiency of protective devices 9 article gets much, much more detailed about how to 10 which may be used in the elimination of the dust 10 quantify things. But if you look to the second column, 11 hazard." 11 there's a paragraph that starts off, "The impinger 12 Did I read this correctly? 12 apparatus... " and describes that apparatus; do you see 13 A Yes. 13 where I'm at? 14 Q And what this is basically saying is that in 15 order to evaluate if it's a hazard, you need to quantity 14 15 A What page are you on? Q It's 232. 16 it, both so you understand the harm and how to deal with 16 A I'm sorry, 232. I'm a page behind, sorry. 17 it; is that fair? 17 Q The first paragraph on the second column talks 18 A Yes. 18 about an impinger apparatus and describes it; do you see 19 Q And he puts it a little more bluntly later in 19 that? 20 the article. 20 A Yes. 21 It says: "Hence, the necessity for knowledge 21 Q Do you know what that is? 22 concerning the chemical and mineralogical 22 A No. 23 composition of the dust is obvious." 23 Q I'll represent to you an emission impinger is a 24 Did I read that correct? 24 method to do air sampling back in the day. Is that 25 A I'm sure you did. 25 something that Otis ever used? Page 218 Page 220 1 MR. MORFORD: Can we make things a little easier 1 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 2 just by agreeing that we'll stipulate that the words 2 A I don't know the answer to that question. 3 on the piece of paper are the words on the piece of 3 Q Do you have any reason to dispute that it was an 4 piece of paper, you don't have to read it to him? 4 inexpensive and available apparatus for companies like 5 He's never seen it before but it is what it is. 5 Otis? 6 MS. DEAN: I'm going to have a few questions 6 MR. MORFORD: Objection. He doesn't even know 7 about them but I've cut them. 7 what it is. 8 Q And what it recommends, after explaining the 8 A What are you referring to, Jessica? Are you 9 importance of this is, "For that reason it is essential to 9 referring to the test we conducted in the 1980s? 10 determine the size of the dust particles present in the 10 Q No. The availability of an emission impinger at 11 industrial atmosphere;" correct? 12 MR. MoRfORD: Objection. 11 any point in time from 1920 to 1960s? 12 A Apparently, it was available. 13 Q Is that what it says? 13 Q I'm going to ask you about another ASME documen 14 A You read it, Jessica. I'm sorry, I'm not with 14 that we're going to mark as Exhibit 18. 15 you. 15 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 18 was marked for 16 Q Okay. I was looking at the last sentence on the 16 identification.) 17 second column. 17 MR. MORFORD: I just want him to put his hand 18 MR. MORFORD: Stay with it. 18 down so people can see his face. 19 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 Q Are you getting tired? 20 Q And she says: "For that reason it is essential 20 A No, I'm not. 21 to determine size of the dust particles present..." 21 Q I am. And this is a -- what we've marked as 22 A Right. 22 Exhibit 18 is again is a Mechanical Engineering 23 Q "... in the industrial atmosphere." 23 publication from the American Society of Mechanical 24 A Right. 24 Engineers; correct? 25 Q Again, Otis never determined the size, quality, 25 A Yes. 55 (Pages 217 to 220) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 221 Page 223 1 Q And that's from February of 1935? 1 unfair question. He's never read the article, he's 2 A Yes. 2 never seen it. You showed him the title of one 3 Q And here it has an article about "Toxic Dust and 3 sentence and you say, "That's what author is alluding 4 Occupational Diseases;" correct? 4 to here, right?" 5 A Yes. 5 I don't know the answer. I don't know how 6 Q And this is way back in 1930s; is that correct? 6 anyone in the room can know the answer with the 7 A Yes. 7 possible exception of you. 8 Q And the article here is "Occupational Diseases, 8 MS. DEAN: If you want to read more than the 9 the Problems of Their Practical Prevention in Industry;" 9 context that I've give to make sure that he wasn't 10 correct? 10 like, "This is the opinion of other people and I 11 A Yes. 11 think they're wrong," I will give him the 12 MR. MORFORD: Objection; lack of foundation. 12 opportunity. 13 He's never seen the document, it is what it is. 13 MR. MORFORD: He already agreed that there's 14 Q And I just want to look -- I don't want to lie 14 good reason both, you know, for safety purposes and 15 to you but I want to look at two parts of this article. 15 for risk management purposes. So, I don't know whal 16 What the author says, if you look to where I've 16 the article says. You just asked him what the 17 highlighted on the screen -- although it is not focusing. 17 article says is this, and he can't answer that 18 A What page are you on? 18 question unless he's read the article, is all I'm 19 Q The very first page. There's a sentence that 19 saying. 20 starts with: "It therefore seems..." You see where I'm 20 MS. DEAN: And he can read it. 21 at? It's in the very first paragraph, about 21 Q But my point is that what you think is good 22 three-quarters of the way through, the word "it" starts 22 advice was available through ASME in the 1930s; is that 23 the very end? 23 fair? 24 A Yes. 24 MR. MORFORD: Objection. I don't know what 25 Q "It therefore seems to me that most intensive 25 you're referring to. Page 222 Page 224 1 Consideration should be given to this phase of 1 Q The portion that's highlighted that was read 2 the situation immediately by outstanding experts of 2 that indicates that the reason you want to do prevention 3 the country so that suffering by workmen from 3 is because, one, you don't want to hurt people and if you 4 preventable anomalies may be reduced to a minimum, 4 can prevent it you should; and, two, by the -- 5 and so that industry may not avoidably be drained 5 A If you take it out of the context of this 6 of its resources." 6 article, which I know nothing about, the theory is great, 7 Did I read that correctly? 7 it's what we all believe in, that we want to protect our 8 A Yes. 8 workers in the workplace. 9 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 9 Q And that theory in this article, and the jury 10 Q Again what this article is about is preventing 10 will have it to read it -- 11 injury in industry; correct? 11 A It a great theory. 12 MR. MORFORD: That's what the title says, he's 12 Q -- is something that was made known through ASME 13 never read the article. 13 back in 1930s in this publication from February of 1935; 14 A Yes. 14 is that fair? 15 Q And you'd agree with me that there is a logic to 15 A That's fair. 16 try to doing prevention, not only for the safety of people 16 Q And if you look on to the second column, and 17 that wouldn't get harmed, but for the company itself in 17 this will be the last portion that I want to look at in 18 order to prevent financial liability; correct? 18 this document -- I'm having trouble getting us there -- 19 A I would agree with that theory, yes. 19 they give a recommendation. 20 Q And that's what this author is alerting people 20 You see where it says: "Therefore, primarily, 21 to through this ASME article; is that fair? 21 efforts should probably be directed principally to 22 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, it's really unfair. You 22 the elimination of harmful dust"? 23 asked to read the title, you showed him a sentence, 23 A Yes, I see it. 24 and now you're asking if that's what the author is 24 Q Did Otis do anything in the 1930s, '40s, '50s or 25 saying. I'm just saying he can't -- that's a totally 25 '60s to eliminate dust from asbestos and its products? 56 (Pages 221 to 224) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 225 Page 227 1 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 1 Q Do you agree mechanical engineers in creating 2 A I don't know that what they did in the '30s, 2 products have a responsibility to the people that they 3 '40s, '50s and '60s. 3 sell those products to to prevent disease? 4 Q There's not anything that you're aware of they 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 did? 5 A That's, I mean, that's too broad of a statement. 6 A No. 6 The company, if your product -- if your product could 7 Q And it's your impression from working there that 7 cause harm, you obviously have a responsibility. If youi 8 it was 1972 that they first became aware of the problem 8 product doesn't cause harm, then you don't have a 9 and the 1980s when they started acting on it; is that 9 responsibility; do you? 10 fair? 10 Q What about figuring out if your product causes 11 A That's fair. 11 harm? I mean, do you think it's okay just not to find 12 Q The next, the very next part talks about: 12 out? 13 "The preponderance of medical opinion is that 13 A I don't know what they did in 1935. 14 of the inorganic dust constantly generated in 14 Q My question -- my question's a little different 15 industry, only dust of free silica and perhaps 15 though, whether they did or did not, the idea that if 16 asbestos dust, and these dusts only when in minute 16 there -- it's an unknown whether your product can harm 17 particles are harmful, that is, harmful in the 17 people, and there is literature indicating that you need 18 sense and to the extent of causing specific 18 to test it, you should find out, do you think it's okay 19 disabling disease of the lungs." 19 just not to find out? 20 Did I read that correct? I always forget to 20 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 ask that one. 21 A If you know your product potentially could cause 22 A Yes. 22 harm, you should take steps to prevent it. Did they? I 23 Q Okay. And this is certainly information that 23 don't know. Probably they did, maybe they did. 24 was available to Otis employees to make known to Otis 24 Q And I couldn't agree more but I'm going back one 25 about dangers associated with asbestos back in the 1920s? 25 step. You've got to have knowledge to start preventing Page 226 Page 228 1 A I have no idea. 1 it, but what happens if you don't do anything to figure 2 Q Would you believe it's reasonable to infer that 2 out the harms that were involved? Do you think that's a 3 because Otis employees, numerous of them, were members oi 3 reasonable thing for mechanic engineers that are creating 4 ASME, that this was available to them? 4 products and putting them in the industry for people to 5 A I have no idea. 5 use? 6 Q If you turn a couple of pages, there's a second 6 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 7 article in this same Mechanical Engineering edition called 7 A I don't know how to answer your question. I 8 "The Administration of Occupational Disease Control," by 8 don't know what the question was. 9 Albert S. Gray; do you see that? 9 Q Okay. You had indicated, if I understand right, 10 A Yes. 10 that if you know something could cause harm, you need to 11 Q And he's from the Connecticut State Department 11 act on that? 12 of Health; correct? 12 A Right. 13 A Yes. Is this also 1935? 13 Q I want to go a step before that, and that is, 14 Q Yeah, it's part of the same -- if you look to 14 what if you don't figure out whether it causes harm or 15 the first page of the document, it's -- 15 not, you keep your head buried in the sand so you don't 16 A Okay. 16 know if it's harmful? Do you think as a mechanical 17 Q It's listed in the index. In this first column, 17 engineer that's putting a product in the industry, a 18 the author says: 18 product that they designed and worked on, should take 19 "Mechanical engineers have a tremendous 19 those steps to figure out the harms that are potentially 20 responsibility in the control of these diseases. 20 there or not? 21 For the majority of instances, this control is 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 22 about the application of mechanical principles, 22 A I don't know. This is too broad a context for 23 whether it be enclosure, ventilation, or both." 23 me to answer the question, too hypothetical for me to 24 Did I read that correct? 24 answer the question specifically. 25 A Yes. 25 Q I'll make it more specific. When Otis had 57 (Pages 225 to 228) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 229 Page 231 1 members in ASME as early as 1912, and there's indication 1 2 that asbestos could be harmful and that you should test 2 3 it, because sometimes it is and sometimes it's not, do you 3 4 think it's reasonable if you're using asbestos just not to 4 5 do anything? 5 6 MR. MORFORD: Using asbestos as Otis used it, is 6 7 that what you're asking? 7 8 A Using asbestos as Otis used it, from the 8 9 knowledge that we have today, there was no harmful effec t 9 10 from it. 10 11 MS. DEAN: Object; nonresponsive. 11 12 Q And, again, the critical thing is with the 12 13 knowledge you have, do you believe that if you have 13 14 members in the organization that say, "Hey, asbestos can 14 15 harm people," and you can't know if it's harmful or not 15 16 until you test your product, regardless of what it is, 16 17 just not to do that for 50 years? 17 18 A What makes -- maybe if that occurred, and I 18 19 don't know if that occurred, maybe if that occurred, 19 20 hypothetically, that they didn't test it back then, what 20 21 difference does it make? Because in 1980 when they tester 21 22 it -- in 1983 when we tested it, it proved that it wasn't 22 23 harmful. 23 24 MS. DEAN: I'm going to object to nonresponsive. 24 25 Q And bunches of people disagree on whether it's 25 the type in order to make sure it's safe? A Which we did in 1983 and 1984. MS. DEAN: I'm going to object, nonresponsive. Q You saw the portion of the ASME articles that indicated that if there is dust, then you need to know the quantity and the type in order to evaluate if the danger exists; correct? A Yes. Q And that in every case, the terminology that was used, that should be done; correct? A Yes. Q Assume for me that Otis did not do testing. A Why do I want to assume that? Q Have you assumed that before, sir? A Why don't we assume that they did do tests ant found no harm? Q Have you -MR. MORFORD: Answer her questions. Q Have you stated before under oath that you don't believe that Otis did a single test until 1983? A Well, to the best of my knowledge, they did not do any testing until 1983. Q And you believe the first test ever done was in 1983; correct? A Well, to the best of my knowledge, in the Page 230 Page 232 1 harmful for not, experts that Otis hired and paid for 1 workplace, the first tests ever done were in 1983. 2 disagree with experts that we hired and paid for. 2 MS. DEAN: Let's take a short break. 3 So I'm going just going to focus on stepping 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 4:19 p.m., we're off 4 back, and that is if you have indication that your product 4 the record. 5 can be harmful, and you have information that the only way 5 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 6 to really know that is to do tests, and you just don't, 6 record.) 7 for almost a half century; is that it? 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 4:26 p.m., we're bacl 8 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 8 on the record. 9 A Neither one us know whether they did anything 9 BY MS. DEAN: 10 back in 1935. They very well could have done tests back 10 Q It's your belief that -- or it's Otis's belief 11 in 1935 and determined what we determined in 1983, that 11 that they didn't know that there was even a potential harm 12 there was no harm from the products we were using. How do > 12 to human beings from asbestos until 1972; correct? We've 13 you or I know that? 13 talked about that. 14 MR. MORFORD: Where's the foundational proof, 14 A There was no potential harm to Otis employees 15 Jessica, that the Otis elevators can be harmful from 15 until 1972, inasmuch as OSHA enacted legislation to 16 asbestos? They're talking about dust in industrial 16 highlight the fact that you could be harmed in the 17 settings, not asbestos as used by Otis Elevator 17 workplace from asbestos exposure. 18 Company. 18 Q Are you backtracking from your earlier 19 MS. DEAN: Object; nonresponsive. 19 statement? 20 Q You just sat and looked at the articles that 20 A I don't think so. 21 indicated that asbestos can cause harm in the lungs; 21 Q Would you agree that it wasn't until -- that 22 correct? 22 Otis claims it wasn't until 1972 that they were aware that 23 A Yes. 23 there was a potential harm from asbestos to anyone? I can 24 Q And you also saw the article that said if there 24 get the quote. 25 is dust created, you need to figure out the quantity and 25 A I think Otis believed with the small number of 58 (Pages 229 to 232) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 233 Page 235 1 components in their elevator system that there was no harm 1 your workplace to protect your employees, that occurred in 2 to their employees or the public from the asbestos in 2 1972. 3 their -- in their elevator product. 3 Q I'm familiar with OSHA but my question is 4 Q That's not the question I asked. Is it Otis's 4 different. In addition to the fact that there's 5 position that the first time they became aware of the 5 absolutely no evidence in any of the documents from Otis 6 potential health risks from asbestos was in relation to 6 that they did a single test before 1972, if they're 7 OSHA in 1972? 7 claiming they didn't know there was a problem, it's 8 A Yes. 8 logical to assume that no tests were done before 1972; 9 Q I mean, that -- 9 that's fair? That would be Otis's opinion? 10 A That Otis employees could be exposed, could have 10 MR. MORFORD: Otis's opinion? 11 an overt exposure in the workplace, because OSHA enacted 11 MS. DEAN: Yes. 12 legislation in 1972 stating that that could occur. 12 MR. MORFORD: Then I object, I don't understand 13 Q Are you saying then that Otis was aware earlier 13 the question. 14 than that that asbestos could be dangerous, just not in 14 A I'm not sure I understand the question either. 15 the elevator context? 15 I think that a company is always assessing its risks in 16 A I'm not saying that at all. 16 the workplace, and the very few components that 17 Q Okay. So the first time that they knew there 17 Otis Elevator had that contained asbestos in their 18 was an asbestos danger to anything, from anything, you're 18 elevator system would logically indicate that they did not 19 claiming was 1972? 19 have an issue concerning asbestos in the workplace. 20 MR. MORFORD: I think what the discovery 20 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 21 response says is very clear, Jessica. 21 Q Otis is claiming they had no idea, not just that 22 MS. DEAN: I just want to make sure he's not 22 asbestos does harm people but that it could even 23 backtracking on that. 23 potentially harm people until 1972; right? 24 A I'm not backtracking. 24 MR. MORFORD: Could we see the discovery 25 Q Then if they weren't aware that there was -- if 25 responses? Because I know we said exactly what our Page 234 Page 236 1 they're alleging that they were not even aware that there 1 position is. 2 was potential risk from asbestos, do you believe it is 2 MS. DEAN: If I get an answer to this, we can go 3 likely or even possible that they were doing testing on 3 forward. 4 asbestos before 1972? 4 MR. MORFORD: You keep changing the language in 5 A We found no evidence of testing before 1972. 5 each question so that's why I say that. 6 Q And it's your opinion that it didn't happen 6 A Otis followed OSHA's lead in protecting 7 until the 1980s? 7 employees in the workplace. 8 A There's no evidence of testing before 1972. 8 Q It's different from that. It's not just they 9 Q And it's not just the complete lack of evidence 9 allegedly followed OSHA's lead, we'll talk about whether 10 of it happening, but it also make sense, given that Otis 10 that reasonable thing for a company to do, is wait on the 11 is saying that they didn't know that there was harm, that 11 government when they're the one making the product, but my 12 they didn't test until after 1972; correct? 12 question is different. 13 A There's no evidence of testing prior to 1972. 13 A Otis did not make asbestos. 14 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 14 Q They had no idea -- it's their claim, Otis is 15 Q But my question is moving on to another one, and 15 claiming that they didn't know that there was a potential 16 it's asking that in addition to the fact that there's 16 harm, even a potential harm, to human beings until 1972; 17 absolutely no evidence indicating Otis ever tested before 17 correct? 18 1972, it just makes sense that if they're claiming that 18 MR. MORFORD: Objection. He's stated over and 19 they didn't know asbestos was harmful until 1972, that 19 over again. Our position is it's in the discovery 20 they didn't start testing until after that; is that fair? 20 responses. You can ask him over and over again. 21 A OSHA -- 21 MS. DEAN: Well, there was -- you stated, you 22 MR. MORFORD: Testify to what you know. 22 stated over and over again they had no idea asbestos 23 A OSHA enacted legislation which highlighted that 23 could harm a soul until 1972. Now does it make any 24 you could have an exposure in the workplace, it's time to 24 good sense -- 25 start analyzing whether or not you need to do anything in 25 MR. MORFORD: You say it over are over again, he 59 (Pages 233 to 236) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 237 Page 239 1 doesn't say it. 1 MS. DEAN: Do you have an objection? 2 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 MR. MORFORD: He's answered the question. 3 Q Does it make any good sense that they would be 3 MS. DEAN: Do you have an objection? 4 testing for something they didn't even know was 4 MR. MORFORD: Yes, asked and answered. 5 potentially harmful? Is that what you're going to claim 5 MS. DEAN: Okay. 6 to the jury, "We didn't know asbestos could hurt people 6 MR. MORFORD: And you've answered it so many 7 but we were testing it in 1942, I think that's likely"? 7 times, I'm almost going to tell you not to answer it 8 That's what I need to figure out. 8 again. 9 MR. MORFORD: Counsel, I'm sorry, you're arguing 9 Because he said there wasn't testing before 10 with the witness about something -- he said it there 10 1972. 11 wasn't testing. Your prefatory question was about 11 MS. DEAN: That's not what he said. He said 12 testing, he said there was no testing before the 12 he's not aware of testing. I need to know if Otis is 13 '80s, before '72. 13 going to have an opinion on something that they're 14 MS. DEAN: If you'll stipulate to that, if 14 not aware of. I've got to know. You haven't given 15 that's what you're saying, because that's not what 15 me an answer to a very straight-forward question. 16 you've said so far, we're on the same page. 16 MR. MORFORD: Ask the question, you'll get an 17 MR. MORFORD: I think it is what he said, you're 17 answer. 18 just not listening. 18 Q Given that there is no evidence of testing, and 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 given that you've admitted that it is Otis's allegation 20 MR. MORFORD: Pat, tell her, was there testing 20 what they're going to tell this jury is that they didn't 21 before '72 related to asbestos -- 21 know that asbestos could harm people until 1972 -- 22 THE WITNESS: No. 22 MR. MORFORD: Could you just ask the question 23 MR. MORFORD: That you're aware of. 23 about the testing? It's so confusing, it's not even 24 THE WITNESS: No, no. 24 a question. I mean, I can't understand it with all 25 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 25 your prefatory comments. Ask him. Page 238 Page 240 1 MS. DEAN: You just changed the question so 1 MS. DEAN: Sir, "objection, vague," you have no 2 we're going to change it up. 2 right say anything else. None. 3 Q Are you going to allege to this jury that it is 3 MR. MORFORD: Okay. You don't have to answer 4 likely that any type of testing was done on asbestos 4 confusing questions. 5 before 1972? 5 Go ahead. 6 MR. MORFORD: By Otis? 6 MS. DEAN: I am trying to be clear. 7 MS. DEAN: By Otis. 7 Q You told me two things, I want to make sure you 8 A I'm going to say there's no evidence of any 8 agree with me. 9 testing until 1983. 9 A Ask two questions then. 10 Q And it would make no good sense, given Otis's 10 Q One, no evidence of testing before 1983; is that 11 contention that didn't know it was dangerous, for testing 11 correct? 12 to be done before 1972; correct? 12 A Correct. 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 13 Q Two, that it is Otis's allegation to this jury 14 Q Or you can just answer my original question. 14 that they didn't know that asbestos could harm people or 15 You are not going to argue to this jury that testing was 15 could potentially harm people until 1972; true? 16 done before 1972? That is not -- 16 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, I'll tell you what, if in 17 A Otis did not know that there was a potential for 18 all the searches you make me keep going back and do 18 employee harm in the workplace until 1972. 19 because of your threats of motions for sanctions and 19 Q Were they aware of any other type of harm before 20 stuff, we find earlier testing, we will give it to 20 1972? 21 and we'll talk about that testing and bring 21 A Not that I'm aware of it. 22 Mr. Dowson back. Right now I'm telling you, we 22 Q Okay. Given that, would you agree with me that 23 haven't -- 23 it is unlikely that Otis did any testing before 1972? 24 MS. DEAN: I'm not asking you the questions. 24 A I have no idea. 25 MR. MORFORD: I know. 25 Q Okay. Are you going to give an opinion to this 60 (Pages 237 to 240) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 241 Page 243 1 jury that you think testing was done before 1972? 1 sorry but I'm trying to help. You keep saying like 2 A I'm not going to give an opinion whether it was 2 he's going to testify there was testing before '72. 3 done unless there is evidence that it was done. 3 He told you, he's not going to testify that there was 4 Q And does the complete lack of evidence and the 4 testing before '72. 5 fact that they claim that they didn't know it was 5 MS. DEAN: But, see, he kind of did. He kind of 6 dangerous mean anything to you at all in terms of deciding 6 went down this whole road and said, "We may have 7 whether testing was done before 1972? I mean, you're not 7 tested in the 1940s." 8 comfortable -- 8 MR. MORFORD: He didn't. 9 A Is there a question there? 9 MS. DEAN: He did, on the record, and that's 10 Q Yeah. I'm saying, you're not willing to admit 10 kind of nonsense -- 11 that the fact that there's no evidence of testing and that 11 MR. MORFORD: And he fixed that by just saying 12 Otis is claiming they didn't know it was dangerous is 12 to you a second ago, "I'm not going testify," he told 13 indicative that no tests were done before? 13 you three times now in the last ten minutes, "I'm not 14 MR. MORFORD: Counsel, I don't understand. He 14 going to testify there was testing before '72 unless 15 said he's not aware of any testing. 15 new evidence is found." We haven't found it because 16 MS. DEAN: Let him answer, because that -- 16 it doesn't exist. 17 MR. MORFORD: Because you keep asking all these 17 Q Are you going to tell this jury that it was 18 questions over and over. I just don't get it, I'm 18 likely or probable that testing was done in the '30s? 19 not trying to be difficult. 19 A No. 20 MS. DEAN: Then stop talking. 20 Q What about the '40s? 21 MR. MORFORD: No. Well, you got the answer to 21 A No. 22 your question, stop asking the same question. 22 Q What about the '50s? 23 MS. DEAN: We'll be here all day. 23 A I just don't know. 24 THE WITNESS: That's fine. I live here. 24 MR. MORFORD: Just answer that question, that's 25 MR. MORFORD: Good. 25 a good question. Answer it. Page 242 Page 244 1 MS. DEAN: And I don't have plans until Friday, 1 Q Are you going to say that it was likely or 2 so I just -- 2 probable that a single asbestos test was done in the '50s? 3 MR. MORFORD: Just don't ask the same questions 3 A I don't think so. 4 over and over again when he's already answered them, 4 Q What about the '6os? 5 that's all I'm asking. 5 A I don't think so. 6 MS. DEAN: Okay. 6 Q What about the '70s? 7 Q My question is this: Are you really going to 7 A I don't think so. 8 claim to the jury that you don't put any import or 8 Q What about at any time before 1980? 9 importance at all to the fact that there's no evidence of 9 A I don't think any time before 1980. 10 testing, and that Otis is claiming they didn't even know 10 Q We're back to our original -- we'll go back to 11 it was a problem or potential problem until 1972, in order 11 our original question. If a company is aware that 12 to give an opinion that says, "Hey, we probably didn't 12 something that they use in their product contained a 13 test before 1972"? 13 dangerous component, and if they're made aware that you 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 need to test that component to figure out if it's harmful 15 Q You're not willing to agree that that's a 15 or not and they don't for 50 years; would you agree with 16 reasonable conclusion? 16 me that that's unreasonable? 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 18 A Unless evidence is produced that there was 18 A I can only answer it in the context of 19 testing before '72, I'm going to say I'm not aware of any 19 Otis Elevator Company to say that the number of component 20 testing prior to 1972. 20 used in an Otis elevator do not demonstrate, by their 21 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 21 existence in the product, harm to anyone; and any 22 Q My question was different. 22 professional assessment whether or not that could cause 23 A I didn't think so. 23 harm would probably conclude that it's unlikely that they 24 Q It's not, I'm not asking you -- 24 could cause harm. And, therefore, is that the answer to 25 MR. MORFORD: But, see, you keep saying -- I'm 25 your question? 61 (Pages 241 to 244; Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 245 Page 247 1 MS. DEAN: I'm going to object as nonresponsive. 1 Q I think it's a very similar message that we've 2 Q Do you know what my question was? 2 heard two or three times already given through ASME, but 3 A You're trying to say is it reasonable to test 3 if you look at the next page, would you agree with me it 4 for something that you think is harmful? If Otis Elevator 4 says that: 5 Company thought they were producing a product that was 5 "It is only by measuring the exposure to these 6 harmful to the public, producing a product that was 6 materials and processes that we can know how the 7 harmful to the public, they would do an analysis on that. 7 individuals exposed to them are subject to injury 8 Q And you're -- we're back to square one. It's 8 from them." 9 not a question about if they thought it was harmful, what 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 should they do. It's a question of should you test to 10 A Yes. 11 figure out what is harmful when people tell you that when 11 Q And what that's -- and it's fair to say that 12 you test it could be harmful? And if you don't when 12 Otis Elevator did not test its asbestos components to 13 you've been warned, "Hey, you've got do this testing," do 13 measure the materials and processes to determine the 14 you think that reasonable? And I'll ask -- 14 amount of injury that can be done from them in the '30s, 15 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 '40s, '50s, '60s, and '70s? 16 A I can only say when Otis was warned, let's say 16 A Right, not until 1983. 17 by OSHA enacting the Hazard Communications Program i n 17 Q And what it has an entire section to is the role 18 1985, two years prior to it being enacted, Otis recognized 18 of industry in controlling occupational disease; do you 19 that the limits on asbestos exposure were going to come 19 see that? 20 down, thought, "We may have a problem," and therefore 20 A Yes. 21 conducted testing in advance of that legislation to see if 21 Q And it says: "The cooperation of industry is 22 there could be a problem. Because for the first time the 22 essential;" is that fair? 23 exposure limits were being reduced to a very low level. 23 A Yes. 24 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 24 Q Do you agree with that? 25 Q If the company is told that there is a potential 25 A Cooperation of industry is essential? Yes, I Page 246 Page 248 1 problem and the only way to evaluate that is to do a test 1 agree with that. 2 and they don't, do you believe that's reasonable? 2 Q There's a third article in this same ASME 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 3 publication in Mechanical Engineering called "Toxic Dust, 4 A Hypothetically, if a company is given a warning 4 The Origins and Sources of Various Industries." Do you 5 of a potential problem, there should be a test to see if 5 see that? 6 they've got it. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And that's also important when the consequences 7 Q And it tells what you the subject is the first 8 of the problem are fatal; correct? 8 line. 9 A That's hypothetical. 9 It says: "The subject assigned the meeting 10 Q And you would agree with me that -- 10 presupposes that many industrial diseases are 11 A Hypothetically, I agree with you. 11 produced through contact with or inhalation of 12 Q And we can fill in those facts later. 12 industrial dust of a toxic nature." 13 Back to the ASME document from 1935, and we've 13 Do you see that? 14 been talking about occupational disease control and the 14 A Yes. 15 responsibility of the mechanical engineers, and I think 15 Q And then it goes on to outline different types 16 the section that we haven't talked about yet is on the 16 of dust, quarry operations, stone dressing; do you see 17 second column. 17 that? Building cleaning? 18 It says: "We know that if there -- if these 18 A Yes. 19 various materials and processes are not controlled, 19 Q And one of the entire subheadings that they 20 they will seriously affect the health of 20 dedicate to, if you look on the next page, is "Asbestos 21 individuals exposed to them and may even affect the 21 and Asbestos During Manufacturing;" is that correct? 22 health of people in the community." 22 A Yes, I can see it. 23 Do you know one way or the other whether Otis 23 MR. MORFORD: Look through all them so you can 24 was aware of this back in 1935? 24 see all the headings. 25 A No. 25 A Quarry operations, mining. It's not hard to 62 (Pages 245 to 248) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 249 Page 251 1 tell where the focus was in 1935. 1 it was toxic? That's Otis's claim. 2 MR. MORFORD: Keep going through to where you 2 A Jessica, I've told you, with the very few 3 went to, no need to comment. Just answer her 3 components that contain asbestos in the Otis Elevator 4 questions. 4 product, concerns around exposure only started to surface 5 A Again the question is? 6 MS. DEAN: I'll just object to the response thus 5 in 1972. Otis was not manufacturing asbestos, grinding 6 asbestos, mining asbestos, they were using a few asbestos 7 far. 7 components amongst hundreds of components in their 8 Q But there's entire sections dedicated to 8 elevator. 9 "Asbestos and Asbestos in Manufacturing?" Is that 9 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 10 correct? 10 Q Let me look at this one. I hand you what we're 11 A Yes. 11 going to mark as Exhibit 19. 12 Q And is it still Otis's position that they didn't 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 19 was marked for 13 know asbestos was a toxic dust until the 1970s? 13 identification.) 14 MR. MORFORD: Read that. 14 I ask you if you've ever seen that document 15 Q You want me to repeat the question? 15 before. 16 A This is all about mining and manufacturing, 17 Jessica, so I'm kind of lost as to what you're trying to 16 17 A I have not seen this before. Q Do you want to take some time to look at it? 18 ask me. 18 Let me ask you some questions and if you want to look at 19 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 19 it more closely -- 20 Q Let me ask the question again. Are you claiming 20 A Why don't you just point me to where you want to 21 that Otis was not aware that asbestos was a toxic dust 21 talk about? 22 until the 1970s? 22 Q Okay. If you turn to what's, I think Bates 23 MR. MORFORD: The connection of the question 23 labeled at the bottom right corner, it's 211; it might be 24 with this article, so I don't think his response was 24 311, it's hard to tell. 25 nonresponsive; so I object, asked and answered. 25 First they just identify what this document is. Page 250 Page 252 1 Q Do you want me to repeat the question? 1 What this says on the front cover, which is the binding of 2 A How do I know what anybody in 1935 knew about 2 a book, it's National Safety Council Transactions, Volumes 3 this article at Otis Elevator Company? 3 1 through 34, 1951; correct? 4 Q Well, my question is -- 4 A Yes. 5 A And it has nothing to do with elevator 5 Q And then it says General Sessions, 1951, 6 manufacturing. 6 National Safety Council, then gives an index to 7 Q I absolutely disagree but I don't think that's 7 transactions of all sections; correct? 8 the focus right how. 8 A Yes. 9 A Or elevator service. 9 Q And if you look onto the officers of the 10 Q In fact, I couldn't disagree more. But my 10 Automotive and Machine Section, it talks about the 11 question is, is we know many, many employees of 11 officers of the National Safety Council in 1951 and 1952; 12 Otis Elevator were part of ASME; correct? 12 correct? 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 13 A Yes. 14 Q We've gone through that. 14 Q And then they talk about an Educational Training 15 A Yes. 15 Committee, and starts listing members at the bottom of 16 MR. MORFORD: Some. 16 that page; correct? 17 A We've gone through that. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Dozens. And my question is, is it Otis's 18 Q And one of the members of the committee for 19 position that they didn't know asbestos was a toxic dust 19 Educational Training Committee for the National safety 20 until the 1970s? 20 Council is a William J. Neidebauer, Safety Director of 21 A I don't know what they knew. I don't know 21 Otis Elevator; correct? 22 whether they ever saw this article. 22 A Yes. 23 Q If Otis is claiming that they didn't know it was 23 Q And it says they're in New York again? 24 harmful to humans, it's fair to believe that they're 24 A Yes. 25 contending that that it wasn't until 1972 that they knew 25 Q And this certainly indicates that not only an 63 (Pages 249 to 252) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 253 Page 255 1 employee from Otis but somebody directly involved with 1 document. I can't tell if it's even connected to 2 safety was involved with the National Safety Council back 2 each other, this article to these other documents. 3 in the 1950s? 3 It's just it's unclear. 4 A Yes. 4 MS. DEAN: I understand your objection. The 5 Q Okay. And we know from your previous testimony 5 first time I looked at these it took me forever. 6 that in the 1990s, Otis Elevator was purchasing 6 MR. MORFORD: Because, I mean, you have some -- 7 information from the National Safety Council in order to 7 MS. DEAN: I even appreciate your objection. 8 do training classes? 8 MR. MORFORD: The document that said number 9 A Yes. 9 Bates label number 313 has a number, page number 63 10 Q Okay. And do you think it fair or reasonable to 10 on it, it's officers in the chemical section; then it 11 conclude then for at least for the time period from the 11 jumps to an article that's on page 44 and 45, that's 12 '50s, '60s, '70s, and '80s, that the existence of the 12 Bates labeled 314. And I don't know even knows, this 13 National Safety Council as a source of information was a 13 Bates label 321 now has a number 55. I mean, I'm 14 something that employees at Otis Elevator knew? 14 just saying -- 15 A Yes. 15 MS. DEAN: I'll note your objection, I note your 16 Q Does the name John Stalone (phonetic) mean 16 objection. 17 anything to you? 17 MR. MORFORD: Okay. I don't know where the 18 A Not really. 18 problem is. 19 Q I want to turn your attention to page 55 of the 19 MS. DEAN: I think we'll be able to alleviate 20 document, it's on the upper right-hand corner. It's Bates 20 your concerns, but -- 21 label 321 on the -- 21 MR. MORFORD: Another day we can worry about it. 22 MR. MORFORD: 321? 22 MS. DEAN: I very much -- I'm going to repeat 23 MS. DEAN: It's easier to find on the upper 23 that because the document is fine. 24 right-hand corner, I think. 24 Q On the second page of that article, do you see 25 MR. MORFORD: "Industrial Hygiene"? 25 where I'm at where it starts with, "At the present Page 254 Page 256 1 Q Yeah. And this is an article, "Industrial 1 time..."? 2 Hygiene, Industrial Dust, What Every Supervisor Should 2 A Yes. 3 Know;" correct? 3 Q "At the present time, it is generally agreed 4 A Yes. 4 that most -- that the most important sources of industrial 5 Q And it's by a Dr. Hamlin, who's the medical 5 disease of the lungs are free or uncombined silica and 6 director of American Brake Shoe Company in Chicago, 6 asbestos." 7 Illinois? 7 Did I read that correct? 8 A Yes. 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what this doctor tells us is in this article 9 Q And while the National Safety Council is 10 is: 10 advising people in the 1950s, early 1950s, to do tests, 11 "Most manufacturing procedures are capable of 11 and if there's a danger with asbestos, it's fair to say 12 generating various amounts of dust, which could be 12 that Otis didn't do anything until the 1980s? 13 visible, invisible, dangerous or inert. It is 13 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 therefore important that these substances be 14 A It's fair to say that OSHA enacted legislation 15 properly classified in order to protect the health 15 in 1972, which Otis took note of, and by 1983 took further 16 of the employees and provide safe environments in 16 action based on the fact that there could be some exposure 17 which they may carry out their daily occupations." 17 in the workplace. 18 Is that correct? 18 Q But they waited for OSHA almost 30 years later? 19 A Yes. 19 A I think -- 20 Q That's a very similar message to ASME. When 20 MR. MORFORD: Just answer the question, Pat. 21 you're dealing with dust, test it to figure out if it's 21 A Yeah. 22 okay or not; is that fair? 22 MR. MORFORD: It's not something to worry about. 23 A Yes. 23 THE WITNESS: All right. 24 Q And that's -- 24 Q And this is an article during an issue, or at 25 MR. MORFORD: I object to the use of this 25 least I'll represent to you an issue where the safety 64 (Pages 253 to 256) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 257 Page 259 1 director for Otis Elevator is part, is involved; correct? 1 MS. DEAN: I haven't had time to look. 2 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 2 Q But just to follow up on that, certainly this is 3 A Right. I see that we've got a Otis safety 3 after 1951, and we know that Otis was aware of the 4 person at the front of this document. I don't know if 4 National Safety Council and its transactions; is that 5 they're aware of what we just read. 5 fair? 6 Q If we're able to establish that indeed this 6 A Yes. 7 article was present during the same time that Otis was 7 Q The article in this that I want to focus on is 8 having their safety director as a member -- 8 Bates labeled 384 at the top, and it's called "Labor's 9 A Uh-hum. 9 Stake in Safety," A.J. Hayes, International President, 10 Q -- and part of the committee -- which I 10 International Association of Machinists, Vice President; 11 understand there's an objection, we might have to talk 11 do you see that? 12 about that -- but would you agree with me that this 12 A Yes. 13 indicates that Otis or at least members of the safety 13 MR. MORFORD: I object to the use of that, can't 14 department understood that there were potential dangers 14 determine how this is connected. 15 with asbestos before 1972? 15 MS. DEAN: Each subsection restarts its pages. 16 MR. MORFORD: Otis, asbestos? Objection. 16 It is not an easy document to figure out. 17 A I think, in general, if this person was informed 17 MR. MORFORD: I still have to object. It's too 18 of this, they would know that there were dangers 19 associated with asbestos, yes. 18 much -19 MS. DEAN: I'm just sympathizing. 20 Q And if someone evaluates that there's a danger 20 A Is this 384? 21 of the product, I'm assuming that the way that you handle 21 Q I just showed the title on 384, now I moved to 22 that in Otis is to send that to the safety department, to 22 the body of the document on 386. 23 the safety director; correct? That's where you want that 23 Let me know if -- well,first, I'm at the 24 information to be? 24 "Secrets Prevail in Industry;" do you see that? I'm going 25 A Sure. 25 to read the first paragraph. Page 258 Page 260 1 Q Are there any employee lists maintained 1 "Industry actively opposes objective research 2 historically of employees that worked for Otis? And, if 2 and free interchange of information on occupational 3 so, how far back do they go? 3 diseases because it's more afraid of the 4 A I don't know the answer to your question. 4 possibility of paying compensation than it is that 5 Q In the 1950s -- 5 workers will die from lack of proper information 6 A Active employees, there would be a list. 6 and inadequate precaution." 7 Q In the 1950s, you believed that Otis Elevator 7 Do you see that? 8 was still headquartered in Yonkers; correct? 8 A Yes. 9 A Yes. 9 Q Do you agree with that? 10 Q I want to hand you another National Safety 10 A No, I don't know whether to agree or disagree. 11 Council document. And, again, before today you didn't 11 It's written in 1957. 12 believe that Otis was involved with the 12 MR. MORFORD: Tell her whether you agree or 13 National Safety Council prior to 1990; that's fair? 13 disagree with what's said there. 14 That's not something that had ever been shown to you by 14 A Wow. 15 Otis or any lawyer? 15 MR. MORFORD: She asked the question, answer her 16 A I think that's fair. 16 questions. 17 Q I want to discuss an article in another 17 A I disagree with it from an Otis perspective. I 18 National Safety Council transaction but from 1957. And 18 don't know how to agree or disagree from a general 19 the page I'm going to ask you to direct your attention 19 perspective. 20 to is -- 20 Q The article goes on to say, you see in the 21 MR. MORFORD: I'm going to object before we go 21 second column: 22 on with this document. Is there any evidence Otis 22 "It should not surprise us that doctors can be 23 was involved in 1957? Are they listed on this 23 nonobjective in these case cases where their 24 document, any employee of Otis listed on this 24 testimony is bought and paid for." 25 document? 25 Do you see that? 65 (Pages 257 to 260) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 261 Page 263 1 A I see that sentence, yes. 1 Q Okay. Are you aware, as you sit here today, of 2 Q Is that something -- well, let me just say in a 2 anyone that made asbestos components or asbestos in the 3 general level of industry, you're aware that does in fact 3 raw form diluting the medical testimony in order to 4 happen? It gives an example in the document of the 4 benefit the industry? Is that something you are aware of 5 tobacco industry. But, just in general, are you aware 5 one way one way or the other? 6 that that happens? 6 A No, I'm not aware of that. 7 A In the industrial industry I worked in this did 7 Q Do you think it is reasonable, when there are 8 not happen. 8 articles starting in the 1930s, going on so far through 9 Q Are you familiar with this happening in any 9 the 1950s, talking about asbestos causing cancer and 10 industry? 10 disease, that Otis wasn't aware of that until 1972? 11 A I'm not familiar outside of my own industry. 11 A I don't know how to answer your question. I'm 12 Q Let's go on to see what else this article in 12 sure people at Otis Elevator Company were aware that ther 13 National Safety Council says. I'm back, still in "Secrets 13 was hazards associated with asbestos, but not as it 14 Prevail in Industry," but this last paragraph in that 14 pertained to their own elevator products. 15 section says: 15 Q Once they became aware that they could be 16 "Much the same situation holds true in the 16 harmful, do you think it was reasonable to wait and not 17 asbestos industry. There appears to be a decided 17 test at that point? 18 after effect in workers who produce asbestos in 18 A I think that they -- I think they assessed the 19 that there is marked correlation between asbestos 19 number of few components that they had in their elevators, 20 employment and lung cancer." 20 I think they tested appropriately in 1983, and I think the 21 MR. MORFORD: You're covering up part of the 21 tests affirmed that all the judgments they've made until 22 document, he can't see it? Your head is covering up 22 1983 were correct. 23 the document. 23 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 24 Q Oh, sorry. 24 Q The fact that tests didn't happen until 1983, do 25 MR. MORFORD: So he couldn't follow along. 25 you believe that that was reasonable? Page 262 Page 264 1 A I'lljust start over then. 1 A Yes. 2 "Much the same situation holds true in the 2 MR. MORFORD: He just answered that. 3 asbestos industry. There appears to be a decided 3 MS. DEAN: There was just a lot of commotion. 4 after effect from workers who produce asbestos in 4 Q Okay. Today, does Otis believe that asbestos 5 that there is a marked correlation between asbestos 5 exposure can cause asbestosis? 6 employment and lung cancer. 6 MR. MORFORD: In general, asbestos exposure? 7 "Here again the industry has been 7 MS. DEAN: Yes. 8 traditionally reluctant to cooperate with 8 A Over-exposure. 9 full-scale scientific studies of this curious 9 Q When did they first realize that? Was that in 10 correlation. This reluctance to do the research on 10 '72 or would it be a different or later date? 11 the health hazard recurs in industry after 11 A I'll stay with '72. 12 industry." 12 Q When did -- when did Otis first become aware 13 Did I read that correctly? 13 of -- well, today, does Otis believe that asbestos 14 MR. MORFORD: I'm going to object. He's not 14 exposure can cause lung cancer? 15 offered here as an expert in the asbestos industry. 15 A Yes. 16 He's the person most knowledgeable from Otis. And 16 Q When did these they first become aware of that? 17 we've said all along, we're not in the asbestos 17 A 1972. 18 industry. So I object to the reading or use of this 18 Q And we just looked at an article from '51 19 statement as if he is. 19 talking about asbestos causing lung cancer. Do you 20 A I was going to respond, Otis was not part of the 20 believe that them not being aware of that was reasonable? 21 asbestos industry, so I really don't know what this has to 21 A I'm sure, again, that Otis employees, various 22 do with my testimony today. 22 people in the corporation, knew that if you worked in the 23 MS. DEAN: I'm object to nonresponsive then. 23 asbestos industry that you could get diseases from 24 Q And my question was, did I read that correctly? 24 exposure. 25 A Yeah. Yes, you did. 25 I'm also sure that the very few components used 66 (Pages 261 to 264) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 265 Page 267 1 in Otis Elevator that contained asbestos, that they 1 Exhibit 21. Thank you. 2 determined that there was no exposure for employees or th e 2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 21 was 3 public. 3 marked for identification.) 4 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portion, 4 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, unless you point to where 5 starting with, "I am also sure --" 5 there's an Otis representative on this Exhibit 20, I 6 Q When did you believe that employee within Otis, 6 object to all the questions regarding any knowledge 7 specifically engineers or safety officers, first became 7 of the existence of the National Safety Council is 8 aware that asbestos could cause cancer? 8 then ultimately responsible for knowing all these 9 A When did -- 9 publications. So I'm sure you'll direct me to that 10 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Note my objection. 10 if it's on there first. If it's not, then we object. 11 A When OSHA enacted legislation in 1972, it became 11 Q This is a 1966 position of the National Safety 12 an important issue to Otis Elevator. 12 Council's Transactions; correct? 13 Q Are you contending though that there were people 13 A Yes. 14 within the company, such as either engineers or safety 14 Q And Otis was involved in 1951, at the very least 15 members or corporate members of Otis, that were aware of 15 from that, was aware that this publication exists; is that 16 the dangers of asbestos before that date? 16 fair? 17 A I don't know. 17 MR. MORFORD: Same objection. We didn't know -- 18 Q If they didn't know, since we don't know, I'm 18 A I don't know. 19 just going to make an inference now, if they didn't know, 19 MR. MORFORD: -- since its existence in 1956, he 20 do you think that was reasonable given the literature 20 can't say that. 21 that's out? 21 A I don't know. As a safety director, I can only 22 A I don't know if that's reasonable. 22 say I was aware that this organization existed, it was a 23 Q When -- well, does Otis believe today that 23 resource for safety materials, videotapes, but that's all 24 asbestos exposure in general can cause mesothelioma? 24 I knew. 25 A Yes. 25 MS. DEAN: Please don't coach your witness. I Page 266 Page 268 1 Q And are they aware that much lower levels of 1 wasn't asking you the question. 2 exposure to asbestos can cause mesothelioma? 2 MR. MORFORD: I'm objecting to the entire use of 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Compared to what? 3 the document. 4 MS. DEAN: Any other disease that is caused by 4 MS. DEAN: Which you can do, but to say he 5 asbestos, whether it be pleural plaques, asbestosis, 5 didn't know for this reason and this reason and this 6 or lung cancer? 6 reason is coaching your witness and it's not proper. 7 A OSHA, Otis governs its workplace by OSHA. 7 Q Okay. Would you say it's reasonable to assume 8 Q Can I take that to contend that you think it was 8 that when the safety officer in 1951 was a committee 9 also in 1972 that Otis became aware that asbestos caused 9 member in this, that they would at least be aware that 10 mesothelioma or were you saying something different? I 10 this was a resource following that? 11 asked you when they knew. 11 A I don't know if the safety officer in 1951 was a 12 A What's the difference between mesothelioma and 12 safety officer in 1952, I just don't know the answer to 13 lung cancer? If asbestos caused lung-related diseases, 13 your question. 14 that's enough. You don't know need to know one from the 14 Q Okay. I want to turn your attention to an 15 other. 15 article here on page 588, which is the Bates label of 131, 16 Q Okay. Let me hand you what I've marked as 16 I think at the bottom of it. 17 Exhibit 20. 17 MR. MORFORD: I also object to the use of this 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 20 was marked for 18 document because of the numbering issue, 19 identification.) 19 authentication and so forth. Did you say Bates 581? 20 MR. RHODES: Jessica, did you mark the 1957 20 MS. DEAN: 588. 21 Transaction Guide? 21 Q An article that says: "What Health, Safety and 22 MS. DEAN: I don't know. I'm definitely going 22 Plant Personnel Should Know About Dusts, Fumes, Mists, 23 to have to go back through these at the end of the 23 Gases, Vapors, and Noise," by Warren Cook. 24 day. 25 The 1957 Transaction Guide is marked as 24 Did I read that title correctly? 25 A Yes. 67 (Pages 265 to 268) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 269 Page 271 1 Q And Mr. Cook is a professor of industrial 1 MR. RHODES: Southern Power? 2 health in the Department of Industrial Health, School of 2 MS. DEAN: Yeah, Power and Industry. 3 Public Health, at the University of Michigan; correct? 3 A No, I'm not. It sounds like an electric 4 A Yes. 4 company. 5 Q If you turn the next page, we're still on the 5 Q I don't know. I apologize, I thought I had 6 same article, and I want to focus your attention to the 6 second copies of these but I only have one, so bear with 7 second column in the paragraph that starts off with 7 me. 8 "asbestos" as the first word. 8 MS. DEAN: I'm going to mark -- Exhibit 25 9 A Yes. 9 that's not right, is it? Exhibit 22. 10 Q Let me know if I read this correctly. 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 22 was marked for 11 "Asbestos has been much in the daily 11 identification.) 12 newspapers over the last year or two, not so much 12 Q December 1945 issue of Southern Power and 13 because of its attention is in causing asbestosis 13 Industry, give you an opportunity to look at that. 14 but because of the association of cancerous 14 MR. MORFORD: Don't go through each page. 15 condition known as mesothelioma which has been 15 THE WITNESS: No, no, I'm just trying to get an 16 found among workers with asbestos in far more 16 idea what the document is all about. 17 incidence that among the general population." 17 MR. MORFORD: Ma'am, this is kind of a weird 18 Did I read that right? 18 document. It went -- it starts with what looks like 19 A Yes. 19 page one looks like some kind of advertisement for a 20 Q Okay. And this is information made available to 20 company called Philco. I'm just not sure what it is 21 people that know about the National Safety Council, that 21 other than pieces of paper, a bunch of pieces of 22 asbestos is associated not only with asbestosis but with 22 paper thrown together. 23 cancer; is that fair? 23 MS. DEAN: It was probably pulled out and put in 24 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Did you say -- I want 24 the front when we were suing Philco. 25 make sure I don't project a Fabre. 25 MR. MORFORD: I'm sorry? Page 270 Page 272 1 Did you say made available to people that know 1 2 about the National Safety Council? 2 3 MS. DEAN: Sure. 3 4 MR. MORFORD: Okay. I object. 4 5 A This information is put out by the National 5 6 Safety Council; right? 6 7 Q And they're indicating that for years before 7 8 1966, it was in the daily newspaper about asbestos having 8 9 a correlation with mesothelioma? 9 10 A It was in the newspaper about asbestos workers, 10 11 yes. 11 12 Q Is that something that Otis knew? 12 13 A How do I know the answer to your question? 13 14 Q I mean, is Otis claiming that it didn't -- 14 15 A I just don't know. How do I know that? 15 16 Q So Otis may very well have had information about 16 17 dangers associated with asbestos before 1966? 17 18 A I don't know. 18 19 Q That's all I wanted. Well, there's more still. 19 20 We'll move on. 20 21 Are you familiar with a publication called 21 22 Southern Power and Industry? 22 23 A No. 23 24 MR. MORFORD: What is it called? 24 25 MS. DEAN: Southern Power and Industry. 25 MS. DEAN: It was probably pulled out and put in the front when we were suing Philco, or just like a normal magazine, it could be like a Cosmo ad on the second page of Time. MR. MORFORD: I don't seen page one, is what I'm saying. MS. DEAN: The Philco ad is page one, November 1946, advertising info, page 34. It says the volume number on page two. MR. MORFORD: It does? Where does it say the volume number on this? MS. DEAN: This is the cover, the way I understand it. MR. MORFORD: Here's what you gave me. Here's the first page. MS. DEAN: I'm looking at a different one. MR. MORFORD: Then there's this one. I understand, I see the title, I see the issue there, and then there's this Rockwood thing. MS. DEAN: Then the next page should be two or three, they should be numbered on that one. MR. MORFORD: There's a volume number on here, volume number 12, then there's a page two that shows up. All right. Well, I mean, I'll object to the document's use, 68 (Pages 269 to 272) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 273 Page 275 1 but go ahead and ask your questions realizing I'm 1 two more issues of Southern Power and Industry. I 2 objecting to the use of the document. 2 will agree, if it will help save time, to have the 3 BY MS. DEAN: 3 same objections in relation to the first Southern 4 Q Do you mind handing me back the document? 4 Power and Industry, which was Exhibits 22, to Exhibit 5 A No, no. 5 23. 6 Q Okay. What I've shown you and marked as 6 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 7 Exhibit 22 is entitled Southern Power and Industry; 7 BY MS. DEAN: 8 correct? 8 Q This is, just to show you what I'm looking at, 9 A Yeah. 9 another issue of Southern Power and Industry, from 10 Q And this is from December of 1945? 10 November 1946; do you agree with that? 11 A Yes. 11 A Yes. 12 Q You've never heard of this publication before? 12 Q And the reason I looked at this is again, if you 13 A No, I haven't. 13 look at the advertising index, there is a section for -- 14 Q I'll represent to you it's an advertisement that 14 it's organized alphabetically, and under the O section, do 15 was sent out. And how I know that is because of this 15 you see Otis Elevator? 16 advertisement -- it was a journal that was sent out with 16 A Yes, I do. 17 advertisements, and how I know about the advertisements is 17 Q If you look here, you can see, it says 18 from this index I'm showing you. What I'd like to ask you 18 "Milestones in Service," and there's a full page 19 about -- 19 advertisement by Otis; correct? 20 MR. MORFORD: What's the journal about? 20 A Yes. 21 MS. DEAN: There's a lot of -- there are 21 Q Okay. And what this indicates -- 22 elevators, pumps -- 22 MR. MORFORD: Can he see it? 23 MR. MORFORD: I didn't say what are the 23 MS. DEAN: Sure. 24 advertisements. You said it's a journal that 24 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 25 contains advertisements. 25 A Do you need this back? Page 274 Page 276 1 MS. DEAN: It's a journal about safety issues, 1 Q Yeah, if you don't mind. 2 industry issues, where to buy stuff in the general 2 My understanding of what this is indicating in 3 construction industry. 3 this advertisement is that: 4 Q And under O, one the manufacturers that 4 "Otis is a national enterprise in research 5 advertised in this list is Otis Elevators; correct? 5 engineering and manufacturing so that each Otis 6 A Yes, I saw the name. 6 elevator owner have the best concentration in 7 Q And I went to page 35, and it's a whole page 7 quantity production and -- " 8 advertising for Otis Elevators; correct? 8 I'm going to start over. 9 A Yes. 9 What this is saying in 1946 is that: 10 Q Do you believe that if Otis is advertising in 10 "Otis is a national enterprise in research 11 this journal that it is likely that they've seen their 11 engineering and manufacturing so that each Otis 12 advertisements? 12 elevator owner may have the best concentration and 13 A Whoever placed the ad in the journal, I'm sure 13 quantity production can provide." 14 looked at the ad in the journal to make sure it was 14 Is that fair? 15 correct and accurate. 15 A Yes. 16 Q What I want to talk to you about is one of the 16 Q And so they're indicating in the -- specifically 17 articles in there. Let's change the camera real quick. 17 in the area of research that, to the Otis Elevator owners, 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 5:21, going off the 18 that, You're going to get the best in research that there 19 record. 19 is; correct? 20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 20 A Yes. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5:32 p.m., we're 21 Q And do you think that at least as it relates to 22 back on the record. 22 asbestos safety, if they haven't done a single test or 23 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 23 and 24 were marked for 23 done any research on the dangers of that, that that's a 24 identification.) 24 fair representation to give to Otis buyers? 25 MS. DEAN: I have marked as Exhibits 23 and 24 25 A I think it's a very fair representation to give 69 (Pages 273 to 276) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 277 Page 279 1 to Otis buyers, yes. 1 A Yes. 2 Q What I want to talk to you about is an article 2 Q Again, if the first time that Otis realized that 3 that's found in the same journal, called "Industrial 3 asbestos could cause danger was in the 1970s, do you think 4 Hygiene, the Importance of Dust." Have you seen this 4 that's reasonable with this kind of material present? 5 before? 5 A Yes. 6 A No. 6 Q I want to look to the second page of the article 7 Q It's by N.V. Hendricks, Chief Engineer of 7 where it talks about pneumoconiosis. Again let me know if 8 Industrial Hygiene in New Jersey's Department of Health; 8 I read this correctly. This is subsection A, 9 do you see that? 9 "Pneumoconiosis." 10 A Yes. 10 It says: "The dust producing this type 11 Q Okay. 11 reaction are harmful only when inhaled. The 12 A And what date is this? This is the same book of 12 principal materials producing this type of reaction 13 1946? 13 are free silica and asbestos dust. On inhalation, 14 Q Yeah, it's in the same publication. 14 these two materials produce specific lung pathology 15 A Publication of the 1946? 15 and, from the standpoint the disability, present 16 Q From November of 1946. And I've turned to 16 the most important of the dust exposures." 17 page 61. 17 Did I read that correctly? 18 A I was born in March, I was a little -- six 18 A Yes. 19 months old at the time. 19 Q Okay. And, again, this is saying asbestos along 20 Q But Otis had been born for almost a hundred 20 with this one other dust is the most significant dust 21 years; is that fair? 21 exposure that a company needs to be worried about; is that 22 A That's fair. 22 fair? 23 Q If you'd like to look at the entire document, by 23 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 24 all means I'll hand it to you, but I want to give you 24 A That's fair. 25 chance just to look at the article to the extent that 25 Q Okay. Did you again think it's reasonable that Page 278 Page 280 1 you'd like before I ask you some questions on certain 1 Otis didn't know that asbestos could harm anyone until 2 sections of it. 2 1972? 3 A I think I've got the general gist of the 3 A It's very reasonable, as Otis did not mine, 4 article. Thank you. 4 manufacture asbestos, had only a few components in thei 5 Q Okay. I want to look first at this first 5 equipment, did not manipulate that once it was installed 6 paragraph, and just start off with if I've read it 6 in the owner's building, to assume this did not pertain to 7 correctly. 7 them. 8 "Aside from any usage or economic loss 8 Q And you believe that, for instance, brake 9 resulting from the escape of dust, there are 9 linings were never manipulated? 10 certain dust exposures which may result in acute 10 A I think we covered brake linings pretty good 11 health hazards. This is especially true if the 11 earlier. They were manipulated but did not cause any 12 dust contains a high percentage free silica, 12 exposure. 13 asbestos, or other toxic materials. 13 Q It has a specific section here in the same 14 "Where health consideration are involved in 14 article about dust measurements; do you see that? 15 such exposures, legal aspects present themselves. 15 A Yes. 16 In most states where occupational diseases are 16 Q And the first thing it says is: 17 compensable, specific coverage is given to those 17 "In addition to the factors influencing dust 18 disabilities resulting from the inhalation of 18 hazards, it is necessary to make direct dust 19 silica dust." 19 measurements in order to obtain a true evaluation 20 Did I read that correctly? 20 of any dust exposure." 21 A Yes. 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 Q And this is talking about in the 1940s about 22 A Yes. 23 health hazards associated specifically with asbestos; is 23 Q And so this is the third source that we've 24 that fair? 24 found, with the National Safety Council and the ASME 25 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 25 documents, that are saying that if you're going to use it, 70 (Pages 277 to 280) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 281 Page 283 1 dust measurements are needed; is that fair? 1 so there were good reasons why Otis thought there might 2 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 2 be, might be some exposure. 3 A I'm not sure that's what it's saying. I think, 3 Q And one of the things that didn't change, 4 again, if you're a manufacturer, you're mining, you're 4 however, in the 1940s to the 1980s, at least in your 5 working with asbestos, I think that you definitely have t( 5 belief, is Otis using asbestos components in its 6 consider this information. 6 elevators? 7 But if you're using a few components within your 7 A A few encapsulated asbestos parts in their 8 equipment and you're not manipulating it, I don't think 8 equipment, yes. 9 there's any need to do anything. 9 Q Again, is it your contention to this jury that 10 Q I want you to look at that section. And after 10 they were all encapsulated? 11 it says that it is necessary to do a dust measurement, do 11 A Almost all of them were encapsulated, yes. 12 you see any qualification that gets certain types of 12 Q In that section, I just want to show you the way 13 industry off the hook? 13 it ends, because it ends how it begins. Did I read this 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 14 correctly: 15 Q It's necessary -- 15 "It should be pointed out that the only way to 16 MR. MORFORD: The article says what the article 16 determine both the nature of the dust and the 17 says. 17 actual concentration is by direct sampling and 18 A The article says what it says, right. 18 similar procedures for the counting of the dust"? 19 Q I'll represent to you that it doesn't quality 19 MR. MORFORD: Objection; asked and answered. 20 it. It doesn't say "only asbestos in construction but not 20 Don't answer it. She already read it to you a 21 asbestos in another area." 21 couple of times. 22 A That's fine. I respect your opinion. 22 MS. DEAN: No, this is a different section. 23 Q Okay. If it says differently, I'm positive 23 MR. MORFORD: I'm sorry, I thought it was the 24 someone will call me on it. 24 same section. 25 But is it reasonable to believe that there is an 25 MS. DEAN: No. Page 282 Page 284 1 exception for Otis in the asbestos components it used when 1 A I agree with what she read. 2 the author is saying it's necessary to do dust 2 Q Okay. There's one last Southern Power and 3 measurements and doesn't make that same exception? 3 Industry journal I'd like to show you, that I've marked as 4 A Every company's got to assess their risk. If 4 Exhibit 24. 5 you assess your risk and you don't see any exposure, then 5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 24 was 6 I don't think there's any need to do anything. 6 marked for identification.) 7 Q Are you aware of any way to assess the risk to 7 Exhibit 24, do you agree, is a Southern Power 8 asbestos exposure if you don't know how much dust is 8 and Industry journal from January 1946; is that correct? 9 airborne from using the products? 9 MR. MORFORD: Looks like a copy of it. 10 A Fortunately for Otis, they did extensive testing 10 A Yes. 11 in 1983 and '84 and it proved that there was no exposure 11 MR. MORFORD: Do you agree we have all the same 12 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 12 objections we had before, we can stipulate on that? 13 Q Do you know of any way to assess the risk of a 13 A Yes. 14 produce if you haven't done, in relation to asbestos, air 14 MS. DEAN: Yes. 15 sampling to know how much asbestos was released into the 15 MR. MORFORD: Okay. 16 air? 16 Q If I go to the advertisement -- advertising 17 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 17 index again, look under Otis, you can see that 18 A I don't know how to do it, I'm glad Otis did it. 18 Otis Elevator was advertising; correct? 19 Q Okay. And they didn't do it until the 1980s; 19 A Yes. 20 correct? 20 Q I first want to just take a moment to look at 21 A That's correct. 21 that advertisement. And again this is a full page ad by 22 Q And that's about 40 years after this article 22 Otis Elevator, and let me give you a chance just to look 23 says that it is necessary to make direct dust measurements 23 at it yourself. 24 in order to make a true evaluation or any dust exposure? 24 A That's fine. Thank you. 25 A There were a lot of changes from 1940 to 1980, 25 Q Okay. And the only thing I wanted to focus on 71 (Pages 281 to 284) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 285 Page 287 1 here is that even back in the 1940s, it's talking about 1 This lets you know kind of the subject matter 2 millions of daily passengers and thousands of buildings 2 of this section; would you agree with that? 3 owning Otis elevators; fair? 3 A Yes. 4 A Yes. 4 Q I just wanted, if you move then two pages down, 5 Q And that they, even at that time, had 245 local 5 you can see the very -- the very next paragraph, move to 6 offices? 6 that, where it says -- I'll read it. 7 A Yes. 7 "In considering the potential development of 8 Q You had said earlier, if I remember correctly, 8 occupational diseases and the responsibility and 9 that you didn't believe that Otis advertised often, if at 9 cost incidence, managements cannot escape the fact 10 all, nationally. Is that something you just don't know 10 the condition of the work environment is an 11 one way or the other, or -- 11 economic factor expressed in terms of the overall 12 A I believe that advertising at Otis has always 12 cost of production." 13 been a judgment call of the particular group that's in 13 Is that something that Otis agrees with? Not 14 power at the time. So, in other words, what Otis is doing 14 only you've agreed that they're responsible for the safety 15 today is different than they did last year; what they did 15 of their employees, but that's something that they 16 20 years ago is different from what doing today. 16 evaluate in the cost of the production of the elevators 17 Those ads may very well have been implemented by 17 that they sell? 18 the local office in Dallas, for example, with the 18 19 authorization from someone outside of Dallas, because it' i 19 A Yes. Q Let me know if I read this correctly: 20 a southern publication. 20 "For many occupational diseases, there is no 21 Q Do you know the scope of this publication, if 21 known medication, and the logical method of control 22 it's a national publication? 22 is the adjustment of the working environment in 23 A No, I don't. 23 order that the exposure from which occupational 24 Q Okay. I want to talk a little bit about an 24 diseases result may be removed." 25 article that's in the same publication with the Otis 25 Did I read that correct? Page 286 Page 288 1 advertisement and give you an opportunity just to look at 1 A Yes. 2 it, if you'd like. 2 Q And that's just the basic message that if we 3 A Okay. 3 can't cure these diseases we should try to prevent them? 4 Q Okay. I'll ask you just a few questions on 4 A Yes. 5 that. This is an article called "Industrial Hygiene, 5 Q And here it talks about all industry. 6 Control of Working Environment is Important," by N.V. 6 "Equipment plays an important role in 7 Hendricks; correct? 7 determining dispersion, since the design of the 8 A Yes. 8 units may call for open or closed operations, 9 Q And, again, he's a gentleman from the Georgia 9 rotation at high speeds or closed, and frequent 10 Department of Public Health? 10 observation on part of the operator. Specific 11 A Yes. 11 design to determine the extent to which you control 12 Q It has a section called "Occupational Diseases;" 12 insulation, such as local exhaust ventilation, 13 correct? 13 might be applied." 14 A Yes. 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 Q It says that: 15 A Yes. 16 "Industrial operations require the use of many 16 Q And the idea is they're talking about, depending 17 materials, some of which are toxic and produce 17 on nature of the work, you need to consider what kind of 18 harmful effects on the individuals exposed to them. 18 ventilation and things of that nature? 19 In addition, there are certain physical conditions 19 A And you need to take mechanical controls, if 20 that exercise harmful effects in the workers..." 20 you're in a manufacturing environment, to take away the 21 MR. MORFORD: Deleterious. 21 dust. 22 Q Thank you. 22 Q And then it goes on to list environmental 23 "... deleterious effects produced by these 23 problems on the very next page. And the first one that 24 materials and conditions may, in a broad sense, be 24 they list is silica and dust, along with gases, vapors, 25 termed on occupational diseases." 25 mists, fumes, physical conditions, and the evaluation of 72 (Pages 285 to 288) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 289 Page 291 1 the environment. 1 Q Okay. 2 And what it says here is: 2 MR. MORFORD: I'll stipulate to their 3 "This condition is known as silicosis and is 3 authenticity, if that helps you. I don't know if it 4 one of the prime disabling occupational diseases, 4 helps the other elevator manufacturers, but -- 5 and has cost industry considerable sums of money 5 MS. DEAN: Yeah, I'm not sure if it will either. 6 for compensation. 6 MR. MORFORD: I think they're on the NEII 7 "Asbestos dust, although specifically toxic, 7 website, for crying out loud. 8 does not result in numerically great evident 8 MS. DEAN: That's how I got them. 9 exposure due to its infrequency in industrial 9 MR. MORFORD: Yeah. 10 applications; however, in the production of 10 MS. DEAN: So I didn't think you would care 11 asbestos cloth and other products, serious problems 11 if I -- 12 with dust control is presented." 12 MR. MORFORD: We produced them to you, I 13 Did I read that correctly? 13 believe, at some point also. That's where we had 14 A Yes. 15 Q And so in the context of this article they're 14 gotten them. 15 MS. DEAN: We'll work that out. 16 talking about considering the problems with dust, one of 16 MR. MORFORD: Okay. You know me, just always 17 the problems that they're listing is silica and asbestos; 17 trying to be agreeable. 18 is that fair? 18 Q Now, it's Otis's position that at no point in 19 A Yes. 19 time would the insulation, asbestos insulation that was in 20 MR. MORFORD: Objection; lack of context. 20 the doors, be drilled through so that there would be 21 Q Now, you are aware before you came here today 21 asbestos dust released? 22 that Otis was involved with National Elevator -- 22 A Under normal circumstances, it would not be 23 MR. MORFORD: NEII. 23 drilled through. 24 Q NEII? 24 Q Okay. And I also asked you about, were there 25 A Yes, I was aware of that. 25 any other nontypical circumstances, and you couldn't Page 290 Page 292 1 Q And that stands for National Elevator 1 identify any; is that fair? 2 Industry, I think Incorporated? 2 MR. MORFORD: For Otis products, he said. 3 A Incorporated, I think. 3 A For Otis products, yes. 4 Q Two documents were given to me, maybe it was 4 Q I want to show you Exhibit 26. 5 just two pages, from Otis Elevators. 5 MR. MORFORD: Can he have it? 6 A Yes. 6 MS. DEAN: Yeah, I have two copies. Sorry, I 7 Q Actually, there are two separate ones. 7 didn't mean to give and take. 8 A Yes. 8 Q As we established, this is from the National 9 Q And my first question to you, before I mark 9 Elevator Industry or NEII, and that this is a position 10 those as 25 and 26, is, are those true and accurate copies 10 paper that they've put out that you agree is authentic; 11 of the position papers from NEII that Otis produced to me? 11 correct? 12 A Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you know Edward Donahue? 13 Q And it's labeled "Asbestos Safety"? 14 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. I called him to work on just 15 Q And what they're saying here is the position 16 authenticating those documents, which is just a procedure 16 paper is written to assure a safe workplace for the 17 to show that they're true and accurate. 17 employees or companies engaged in the work of the elevator 18 A Okay. 18 industry; is that fair? 19 Q Do you know of any objections that Otis would 19 A Yes. 20 have to authenticating those documents? 20 Q And if you look to the third from the bottom 21 MR. MORFORD: This should be the next one, and 21 paragraph, I want to focus on the last sentence and see if 22 this should be the one after that, just based on 22 I read that correctly. 23 dates. 23 "Employees must be instructed that they should 24 MS. DEAN: Okay. 24 not under any circumstances intentionally disturb 25 A I don't know of any objections Otis would have. 25 (e.g., drilling insulated doors, etc.) remove or 73 (Pages 289 to 292) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 293 Page 295 1 clean up asbestos-containing material without first 1 A Membership started? If I did, Jessica, I forget 2 contacting their supervisor and following company 2 the conversation, I don't know for sure. 3 policy." 3 Q Okay. 4 Correct? 4 MR. MORFORD: We can find out the answer to 5 A Yes. 5 that, but my guess is Otis has probably been a member 6 Q So in directly talking about asbestos, the 6 forever, I mean, members from Otis. 7 example they gave about intentionally disturbing asbestos 7 MS. DEAN: I couldn't even figure out when the 8 was the drilling of insulated doors; correct? 8 NEII came into existence, so. 9 A Yes. 9 A Right. 10 Q But Otis claims that that did not happen with 10 Q I didn't know if -- 11 these elevators any point in time? 11 A Well, NEII also has a labor relations arm of 12 A No. But the reason this is written here is it 12 which Otis was a member for many years. 13 could happen. It could happen on a modernization of some 13 But the safety organization itself of NEII was 14 company where you retain existing doors and you want to 14 kind of a splitoff of that labor relations, and I don't 15 change something with the doors; so, it's not impossible 15 know when that occurred. 16 that you could be faced with that situation but it's 16 Q What is the labor relations division called? 17 highly unlikely. 17 A I think it's -- it's also NEII but it's the NEII 18 It wasn't what we faced at Otis because we 18 Labor Relations instead of the NEII Safety Committee. 19 always removed the doors. 19 Q Okay. One of these articles mentioned asbestos 20 Q So then -- 20 awareness training and four classes that need to be taken; 21 A But this was a general industry directive, so 21 are you familiar with that? 22 lots of things go on. You know, you're talking about 22 A I don't recall, I'd probably have to refresh my 23 maybe a hundred independent elevator companies throughout 23 memory. 24 North America that might do all kinds of things. 24 Q I'm getting lazy as the day goes on. Here it 25 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 25 is. Page 294 Page 296 1 Q How many members are there in NEII? 1 MR. MORFORD: You could stop. 2 A I do not know. It's my understanding that 3 there's an official list of members, but I think any 2 Q It's Exhibit 26, on the second page. 3 MR. MORFORD: I don't think that's what she's 4 elevator company can buy information from them. 4 referring to. 5 Q Okay. So the information might be accessible at 5 Q It says "Asbestos Safety," page two, then it 6 a price for nonmembers? 7 A Right. I think, in other words, you can be in 6 lists Class I, II, III, and IV, in roman numerals. Are we 7 looking at the same thing? 8 the elevator -- elevator industry as an independent 8 A I think so, page two? Four classes are -- 9 company and not be a member, but still buy products froml 9 Q Yours has more dots. 10 them. 10 MR. MORFORD: I don't think these four classes 11 Q How long has Otis been a member of NEII? 11 are referring to four classroom sessions, and that's 12 A For as long as I can remember, I do not know 12 what you're talking about; right? 13 when the actual organization started. 13 MS. DEAN: Is that 176 and 177? I'm not -- 14 Q Do you remember back to when you started in '66? 14 MR. MORFORD: It's at 178, 179. 15 A No. I don't remember that far back. When I say 15 16 as long as I can remember, I'm thinking -- I'm thinking in 16 MS. DEAN: We're looking at different things, okay. Sorry. 17 the '80s, '80s, '90s, about as far back as I can remember 17 A Here's the first page. 18 Otis being involved with NEII. 18 MR. MORFORD: That's 179. 19 In 1986 we bought the Field and Safety Handbook 19 Q Although they're similar. 20 from them, so I know that we were involved in the Field 20 A Okay. 21 and Safety Handbook; so, I would say definitely from the 21 Q If you look, just so you get an idea of what I'm 22 early '80s, maybe prior to that. 22 talking about, on the second page of Exhibit 27, you'll 23 Q Have you talked to Ed or anyone at NEII to 24 figure out when ownership started? 23 see that they also reference, there are four classes of 24 asbestos work and each class has its own requirements, and 25 MR. MORFORD: Membership, not ownership. 25 then it lists out where they can be found. Do you see 74 (Pages 293 to 296) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 297 Page 299 1 where I'm talking about? 1 interact with them safely, that is my recollection. 2 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. So you don't hurt yourself by running up 3 Q Do you know if that's something that Otis has 3 and down escalators? 4 undergone, taking those classes and getting materials from 4 A Right, you know, watch your -- 5 them? 5 MR. MORFORD: Watch your kids in their Crocs. 6 MR. MORFORD: Could you repeat that? Could you 6 A -- kids in elevators, how not to play around in 7 read that back? 7 elevators. 8 (Thereupon, the pending question was read by the 8 Q Okay. Got it. In looking at the membership 9 reporter as above recorded.) 9 information for NEII, and I just printed it out -- 10 MR. MORFORD: I'm sorry. I don't think these 10 A Uh-huh. 11 are classes like a classroom setting. 11 MS. DEAN: We can just attach these documents as 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 Exhibit 27. 13 MR. MORFORD: These are four classes of asbestos 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 25, 26 and 27 was marked 14 work. They're described like classifications. 14 for identification.) 15 They're using "class" in the sense of classification, 15 Q Can you look at that again and tell me if this 16 not a training program, not school, if you will. 16 is a true and accurate copy of membership lists and 17 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 information relating to NEII? As you can see, I printed 18 MS. DEAN: But it says at the bottom: "Employer 18 it off the website. 19 should provide minimum asbestos awareness training to 19 A This looks like a true and accurate membership 20 Class IV level." 20 list, yes. 21 MR. MORFORD: Right. 21 Q And, in reading that, Otis is both a full member 22 A Right. 22 and a trustee member? 23 Q So I assumed that there was some actual training 23 A I think the answer to that is yes. 24 that went along with it. 24 Q And as a full member, it goes through that you 25 A Right. There was awareness training at 25 have information to the historical records, the NEII Code Page 298 Page 300 1 Otis Elevator Company, I don't know about any other 1 and Safety Consultant membership meetings, and 2 company. 2 e-newsletter, local code regulation databases; does that 3 Q Do you know if there are any documents from that 3 sound correct? 4 training? 4 A Yes. 5 A Well, there would be documentation of asbestos 5 Q Has any of that information been searched in 6 awareness training, but I don't know how far back it woul d 6 order to evaluate if they had given information or had 7 be available. But there would be asbestos -- 7 available information regarding the dangers to asbestos, 8 It's part of an annual requirement, Jessica, 8 other than Exhibit 26 and 27, that we've already marked, 9 when I worked at Otis North America, and -- but I don't 9 or 25 and 26? 10 know how far back that training records would go. 10 A If it was available, you would have it. 11 Q Okay. I also saw in reading NEII documents 11 Q Okay. 12 reference to the Elevator/Escalator Safety Foundation; are 12 MR. MORFORD: Is this about NEII? 13 you familiar with that? 13 MS. DEAN: Yeah. 14 A Yes. 14 MR. MORFORD: I asked them for anything they had 15 Q Is Otis member of -- are they members of the 15 at all related to asbestos, and I got these two 16 Elevator/Escalator Safety Foundation? 16 position papers. 17 A Yes. 17 MS. DEAN: Okay. 18 Q Do you how long they've been members? 18 MR. MORFORD: I don't control NEII, we don't run 19 A No, I don't. 19 NEII. 20 Q Do you know if that safety foundation also 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 produces information about safe practice in the elevator 21 MR. MORFORD: I asked have asked them, asked 22 industry? 22 them years ago when we started this process. 23 A I don't think so, I think it's a public safety 23 MS. DEAN: And that's what they gave you? 24 foundation. In general, it's a -- it's to educate the 24 MR. MORFORD: Right. 25 public on the use of elevators and escalators and how to 25 Q There are a few more articles I'd like to show 75 (Pages 297 to 300) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 301 Page 303 1 you, starting off with a New York Times article that we're 1 paper they're talking about asbestos being a potential 2 going to mark as Exhibit 28. 2 problem; correct? 3 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 28 was marked for 3 A Yes. 4 identification.) 4 Q Do you still contend that it's reasonable that 5 MR. MORFORD: I'm going to object to the use of 5 Otis didn't know that asbestos could potentially cause 6 the document. Go ahead and do what you're going to 6 problems until 1972? 7 do. 7 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 8 A I don't see any date on this. 8 A Yes. 9 Q It is -- it may not be on the document itself. 9 MS. DEAN: Did I mark that? 10 A It says January 26th at the top but it doesn't 10 THE COURT REPORTER: 28. 11 give the year. 11 Q I'm going to hand you now a Wall Street Journal 12 Q Is this -- is this anything that you've seen 12 article. 13 before? 13 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, all these old articles, I 14 A I don't recall seeing it. 14 mean, what else is he going to say? It's always the 15 Q I'll represent to you that this is from 15 same answer. 16 January 6th, 1948, although I think the cover page for the 16 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 29 was 17 New York Times, I forgot to bring that. 17 marked for identification.) 18 A Do you want -- oh, you have one there? 18 MS. DEAN: Got to do the drill. But I only have 19 Q Yeah. In 1948, Otis's headquarters were in 19 four more and they're each one page. I think there's 20 New York; correct? 20 one that's two, actually. 21 A Yes. 21 Q I've just handed you Exhibit 29; correct? 22 Q And Yonkers is 15 or 20 miles away from New York 22 A Yes. 23 City; correct? 23 Q And it's a Wall Street Journal, and if you look 24 A Yes. 24 at the very top you can barely make out March 3rd, 1966; 25 Q And they'd certainly heard of the New York 25 do you see that? Page 302 Page 304 1 Times? 1 A Yes. 2 A I'm sure they did. 2 Q Okay. It says "Asbestos Dust Called a Hazard to 3 Q And had access to the New York Times? 3 At Least One-Fourth of the United States." Do you see 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 that? 5 Q Just as much as you and I would today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And the article's title is "Aid for Industry 8 Urged on Doctors;" correct? 9 A Yes. 5 A Yes, I do. 6 Q I'll read the first paragraph. 7 "Asbestos dust, which has already been 8 connected with the development of fatal cancers in 9 one-half of asbestos workers, may be a potential 10 Q I just want to highlight one section for you and 10 11 start off by seeing if I read it correctly. I'll try not 11 health hazard for one-quarter of the population or more as was reported yesterday." 12 to get my head in the way. 12 Did I read that correctly? 13 It says: "Dr. Hueper declared that the known 13 A Yes. 14 cancer-producing agents with which workers come 14 MR. MORFORD: I object again to the use of this 15 into contact were ultraviolet rays, x-rays, and the 15 document, it's improper. 16 rays from radioactive substances and compounds of 16 Q Do you think that if it's in a very public paper 17 chloroform, nickel and perhaps beryllium, asbestos, 17 that a fourth of the population could be harmed by 18 tar, pitch, crude oils and grease prepared with 18 something, that it's reasonable that Otis had no idea of 19 petroleum, benzol, and certain benzol derivatives 19 the danger when they were selling asbestos components? 20 such as naphthylamine," and I'm not sure what that 20 A Yes. 21 last chemical is. 21 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, to be clear, he said 22 But other than not being able to see the last 22 repeatedly about the context of elevators, and none 23 chemical, did I read that correctly? 23 of these articles that you're putting in front of him 24 A Yes. 24 and using as exhibits discuss asbestos as used in 25 Q Okay. And so back in 1948 in a very public 25 elevators. That's my objection to their continued 76 (Pages 301 to 304) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 305 Page 307 1 use. 1 Q So, it's possible that there were people high up 2 Q I'm going to hand you Exhibit 30, which I'm 2 in the company that were aware of things that were in the 3 going to put on the bottom and does cover up a very small 3 newspaper? 4 portion, I apologize. 4 A Anything is possible, Jessica. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 30 was marked for 5 Q Do you know if it is likely or not? 6 identification.) 6 A Anything's possible. 7 Exhibit 30 is an article in the Syracuse Herald; 8 correct? 7 MR. MORFORD: Jessica, he said over and over 8 again what matters is the context of their business, 9 A Yes. 9 not what they knew in general. All these articles 10 Q From October 18th, 1937? 10 you keep showing him about asbestos workers and 11 A Yes. 11 miners and people that make asbestos cloth, what 12 Q A long time ago. And again the headquarters for 12 happens to them, I mean -- 13 Otis Elevators during this time period would have been in 13 MS. DEAN: One-fourth of America are not 14 Yonkers, New York? 14 asbestos cloth workers or miners. We can argue about 15 A I believe so. 15 this -- 16 Q If you look onto the second page, there's a 16 MR. MORFORD: Just tell me where one-fourth of 17 section called "Family Doctors," all the way over to the 17 America in the article mentions elevators or 18 right? 18 escalators and you'll stop hearing from me objecting. 19 A Yes. 19 MS. DEAN: We can argue about the objections 20 Q I want to focus in on that for a moment. Let me 20 later. 21 know if I read the second paragraph correctly. 21 Q But my question is, if no one at Otis was aware 22 "There are also conditions such as asbestosis 22 that asbestos could be a potential problem before 1972, 23 from breathing asbestos dust." 23 given all the literature we've talked about so far, do you 24 Do you see that sentence? 24 think that's plausible, that no one at Otis in any kind of 25 A Yes, I do. 25 significant position was aware that asbestos could hurt Page 306 Page 308 1 Q So back in 1937, in a New York paper, they're 1 people? 2 talking about a disease caused from asbestos; correct? 2 MR. MORFORD: What asbestos? Objection. Any 3 A Yes. 3 asbestos? 4 Q Is it your still your position, when they're 4 MS. DEAN: Any asbestos. 5 talking about that in a public paper in the '30s, that not 5 A Any asbestos. I'm sure that some of the people 6 knowing that asbestos could potentially cause harm until 6 at Otis knew asbestos could hurt people, but not in the 7 1972 is reasonable? 7 context of what was in their elevator product. 8 A In the context of the elevator business at 8 Q And do you have any idea when that first noted? 9 Otis Elevator Company, it's very reasonable. 9 A No, I don't. 10 MR. MORFORD: Do you want to talk to him about 10 Q It could have been 1937, for all you know? 11 Tommy Manville's wedding picture here on the first 11 A I have no idea, Jessica. 12 sheet of the exhibit? 12 Q And despite how early they may have had this 13 MS. DEAN: They look very happy. 13 information, they didn't test to figure out dangers until 14 Q Your claim though is that Otis didn't know in 14 the 1980s? 15 any sense that asbestos was dangerous; right? I mean, I 15 MR. MORFORD: Objection; asked and answered 17 16 don't want to return and rebeat that old horse, but in 16 times today. No new testing has been uncovered in 17 terms of causing cancer, asbestosis, mesothelioma, or 17 the last eight hours that you've been deposing the 18 causing any potential danger, your belief is that wasn't 18 witness. 19 appreciated until 1972 at the earliest; is that fair? 19 A There was no testing prior to 1983. 20 A My answer is that in the context of the 20 Q I want to hand you Exhibit 31. 21 components used in the elevators at Otis Elevator Company, 21 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 31 was marked for 22 there was no concern. 22 identification.) 23 Q And my question is different. It is -- 23 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 24 A I don't know what people knew prior to 1972, 24 Q Which is an article, from February 20, 1936, 25 Jessica. 25 from the Salamanca Republican; do you see that? 77 (Pages 305 to 308) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 309 Page 311 1 A Yes. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q And Salamanca is in New York, just like Yonkers 2 A None of my research indicates that that is true. 3 is in New York; correct? 3 Q We'll focus that then in a little bit; but, 4 A I suppose so. 4 nonetheless, what this states is asbestosis is danger for 5 MR. MORFORD: Do you know? 5 any workers of all industries. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 6 And if you look at the very end, it goes on to 7 MR. MORFORD: Then tell her the truth. 7 say that: "There is no known effective treatment for 8 Q Would you agree with me, looking at the 8 asbestosis." Do you see where I'm at? 9 document, that this is a New York publication? 9 A Yes. 10 A I do see New York on the small print. 10 Q Then it goes on to say that: 11 Q I want you to turn to the second page where it 11 "One of the fibrotic bands are formed in 12 says "How's Your Health"? Do you see that? 12 lung..." or, "Once the fibrotic bands are formed 13 A Yes I do. 13 in the lungs, they cannot be resolved by any known 14 Q And it says, "Asbestos," correct? 14 measures." 15 A Yes. 15 Do you see that as well? 16 Q And then there's a column, I just want to read 16 A Yes. 17 portions of that. 17 Q It ends by saying: "Asbestosis, salvation..." 18 "Asbestos is a disease resulting from 18 "With asbestosis, salvation lies in prevention"? 19 inhalation of asbestos dust." 19 A Yes. 20 Do you see that? 20 Q Okay. And this is information available in the 21 A Yes. 21 public press in the 1930s; correct? 22 MR. MORFORD: Objection. It doesn't say that. 22 A Yes. 23 MS. DEAN: Okay. Both of us -- 23 MR. MORFORD: We're getting pretty far past that 24 MR. MORFORD: It says asbestosis. 24 seven-hour time limit, Jessica, that's in the 25 MS. DEAN: Yeah, both of us got that wrong. 25 Minnesota rules. Page 310 Page 312 1 Q "Asbestosis is a disease resulting from the 1 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you what I'm marking as 2 inhalation of asbestos dust," is that correct? 2 Exhibit 32 from The Sunday Record. 3 A Yes. 3 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 32 was 4 Q And it goes on to say that: 4 marked for identification.) 5 "Asbestosis is a danger confronting workers of 5 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 6 all industries in which asbestos is handled, and 6 Q This is from October 26, 1975, correct? 7 the danger is greater when the asbestos has been 7 A Yes. 8 handled in a dry state." 8 MR. MORFORD: I take it you'll let me have my 9 Did I read that correctly? 9 various objections to the use of this document: It's 10 A Yes. 10 not authenticated, never proven to have been gotten 11 Q Among some of the things that they talk about, 11 by anyone at Otis, and it doesn't, I'm assuming, say 12 some of the industries that are affected, are brake lining 12 elevators or escalators in it? I'm assuming you'll 13 and electrical products; correct? 13 let me just have a running objection to you questions 14 A Where do you see that? 14 on this document. 15 Q Talks about brake lining, at the very bottom. 15 MS. DEAN: Sure. 16 A Talks about industries that produce curtains, 16 Q And if you look at the very beginning of this 17 brake linings, steam packings, and other conveyor belts 17 document, it indicates that it's from Troy, New York; 18 Otis was not a manufacturer of asbestos. 18 correct? 19 Q We'll get to that later. But you actually don't 19 A Yes. 20 know whether a lot of the products are manufactured in the 20 Q And on the front page, it has, "Fear of 21 plant by Otis or by a vendor, that's not something you're 21 Asbestos, How's your Health;" correct? 22 aware of one way or another? 22 A That's correct. 23 A I have absolutely no knowledge that -- that 23 Q And what this says, let me know if I'm reading 24 brake linings were manufactured, produced by 24 it correctly: 25 Otis Elevator. 25 "To the public health official, asbestos is a 78 (Pages 309 to 312) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 313 Page 315 1 hazard which has been definitely linked, for at 1 A Because of the effort that was undertaken to 2 least ten years, to various debilitating and 2 eliminate it ultimately was tremendous. Otis does not 3 possibly fatal forms of cancer. Any worker who is 3 manufacture brake linings. 4 exposed to enough asbestos is a possible future 4 Q Let me ask you this, how many years did it take? 5 statistic and susceptible to asbestosis, 5 How many months did it take? 6 mesothelioma, and lung cancer." 6 MR. MORFORD: If you recall. 7 MR. MORFORD: For context, could you also read 7 A If I recall, it took two to three years. 8 the first sentence there that leads off that 8 Q And that effort in Otis didn't start until the 9 paragraph? 9 late 1980s correct? 10 MS. DEAN: No. You're -- 10 A That's correct. 11 MR. MORFORD: So, you're just picking a sentence 11 Q And do you have any reason to believe that Otis, 12 out of the paragraph? 12 with its remarkable resources and funds, could not have 13 MS. DEAN: No, but you're welcome to do that on 13 developed a product that was safer much earlier? 14 cross. 14 Mr. MoRFORD: Objection. Define "safer." 15 Q Did I read that correctly? Actually, I'm going 15 A Yeah, define "safer." There was no unsafer 16 to continue to the beginning of the next paragraph. 16 issue in the workplace, so what was the driver, Jessica? 17 "Research in Great Britain, South Africa, and 17 There was no driver. It wasn't heard of. 18 in this country show the dangers of close exposure 18 MS. DEAN: Objection to the nonresponsive 19 to asbestos; because the minute the mineral fibers 19 portions. 20 are inhaled, they remain in the lungs forever." 20 Q Do you believe that Otis did not have the 21 Did I read that correctly. 21 ability, with its remarkable resources and funds, to find 22 A Yes. 22 a different type of brake that didn't have asbestos in it 23 Q And the subject of this, if you look to the 23 prior to the 1980s? 24 paragraph above, is the Bendix Corporation Friction Plant; 24 A I don't think anything was available on the 25 correct? 25 marketplace. Otis was not a manufacturer of Page 314 Page 316 1 A Yes. 1 brake linings. I think as soon as something was 2 Q Where friction materials are being used? 2 available, they got it. 3 A "A million brake linings a week are being turnec 3 Q Did it ever put any pressure on anyone to 4 out by the Bendix Corporation." 4 provide something that was an alternative before the 5 MS. DEAN: Objection; nonresponsive. 5 1980s? 6 MR. MORFORD: What's not responsive about that? 6 A Not before the 1980s that I'm aware of. 7 He read it instead of taking your summary for truth. 7 Q And in the 1980s, isn't it true that in an 8 Q I asked if it's Bendix Corporation where 8 internal memorandum for Otis that it was Otis saying, "Hey 9 friction products were being used; is that correct? 9 they're not going to supply this anymore," not the other 10 A Yeah. 10 way around, that caused that change to occur? 11 MR. RHODES: Was that 32? 11 A Right. EPA was mandating that it be taken out 12 MR. MORFORD: This is Exhibit 32, it's 12 of brake linings. 13 October 26th, 1975. 13 Q But Otis never took any initiative to say, "Hey, 14 Q Is it Otis's position that they had to use 14 this is not an acceptable product to use"? 15 asbestos in their brakes for them to work? 16 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 A Otis had no choice except to buy what was 16 available in the marketplace. 17 A It is my understanding that Otis had no choice 17 MR. MORFORD: Answer her questions. 18 except to use asbestos in their brake linings because 18 Q Your position is that Otis had no choice to call 19 nothing else was available. 19 someone and ask for an alternative? That Otis didn't have 20 Q Do you believe that to be true? 20 any power in the market to get a different product? 21 A Yes. 21 A The best of my knowledge, Jessica, there was no 22 Q That Otis, a multi-million dollar company, 22 other alternate available. 23 couldn't figure out another type of brake to use? 23 Q Did they ever explore other alternatives or what 24 A Yes. 24 could be done to get that started prior to 1980s? 25 Q Why do you believe that? 25 A I don't know. 79 (Pages 313 to 316) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 317 Page 319 1 Q Regardless of whether asbestos brakes were used, 1 the tapes. 2 recommending preventative measures, ventilation, masks and 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 6:28 p.m., we're off 3 wetting-down methods is something Otis could have done at 3 the record. 4 any time; correct? 4 (A brief recess was taken.) 5 A If it was necessary, they would have done it, 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6:50 p.m., we're 6 yes. 6 back on the record. 7 Q Only do it if it's necessary? 7 MS. DEAN: I'm marking the Material Safety Date 8 A Absolutely. 8 Sheet referenced for Raybestos as Exhibit 34, and the 9 Q I'm going to hand you an article -- 9 Mechanical Engineering article we talked about from 10 A If there's no hazard, there's no need to do it. 10 April 1933 as Exhibit 35. 11 MS. DEAN: Objection to the nonresponsive 11 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 34 and 35 were marked 12 portions. 12 for identification.) 13 I only have one copy of this. I'm going to mark 13 (Discussion off the record) 14 it as Exhibit 33. 14 BY MS. DEAN: 15 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 33 was marked for 15 Q At long last, I want to talk to you about the 16 identification.) 16 testing that was done by Otis in the 1980s; okay? 17 I'll ask you to look at that for a moment. And 17 A Yes. 18 if you don't mind, hand it back. 18 Q Okay. Did UTH Hygiene Lab do all the testing? 19 A This is from what, Jessica? 19 MR. MORFORD: I'm sorry, what did you say? 20 Q That is what -- that is what I was going to ask 20 A UTC? 21 you. It was -- it is an Otis -- has an Otis Bates-stamp 21 Q I'm sorry. UTC Hygiene Lab do all the testing? 22 on it, but I have no idea where it came from or what it 22 A UTC oversaw all the testing. 23 is. 23 Q Okay. Who actually did the testing? 24 MR. MORFORD: Can I see it please? 24 A I believe it was done by a third party, I don't 25 A I see one date on here of April 6, 1987. 25 know. Page 318 Page 320 1 MR. MORFORD: And I see this is, the fax header 1 Q Okay. 2 is the firm that was my local counsel in the Langer 2 A Usually they hire third-party, industrial 3 case, but I have no recollection of this article. 3 hygiene companies. 4 I'm just trying to help. 4 Q Who at UTC did the oversight of this projects? 5 A I have no recollection of this article. 5 A I don't know. 6 MR. MORFORD: It was probably produced in Langer 6 Q Do you know anyone that was involved with the 7 to your firm. 7 project? 8 MS. DEAN: I got it from a lawyer in Iowa. 8 A No, I don't. 9 MR. MORFORD: I'm sorry? 9 MR. MORFORD: If you look at the documents you 10 MS. DEAN: I got it from a lawyer in Iowa. It's 10 could. 11 funny how things get moved around. 11 A Yeah, might see the names on the documents. Bui 12 MR. MORFORD: It's got an Otis number on it so 12 I don't know who oversaw that project for UTC. 13 it was produced in one of our asbestos cases. It's 13 Q Do you have any idea of how much money was paid 14 got Wade McClure's law firm in the fax header on it. 14 to these third-party industrial hygienists to do this 15 He's in Dallas. He was my local counsel in Langer, 15 work? 16 that's what it's connected to. 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Let me ask now, are you familiar with this 17 Q Do you know if it was in the magnitude of 18 document? 18 hundreds of thousands? 19 A No, I'm not. 19 A I don't know. It would be a lot of money but I 20 Q You can't say one way or another if this is 20 just don't know. 21 something that Otis has received? 21 Q Otis paid for these tests; is that fair? 22 A No, I can't. 22 A Yes. 23 Q I'll continue to try to figure that out. 23 Q And what does UTC stand for? Is that 24 A This is a copy. 24 United Technologies? 25 MS. DEAN: Let's take a short break to change 25 A Yes, it is. 80 (Pages 317 to 320) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 321 Page 323 1 Q Okay. Do you know one way or the other if the 1 from the documents, no. 2 records for billing, in terms of industrial hygienists and 2 Q And I didn't notice it in the documents either. 3 which hygienists were used, are something that was kept? 3 And by the 1980s, that work wasn't being done by 4 A No, I don't know. 4 Otis Elevator mechanics; is that fair? 5 Q The first set of documents I'd like to show you, 5 A Yes, that's fair. 6 I'm going to mark as Exhibit 36. 6 Q Okay. And I did not see, and confirm if you 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 36 was marked for 7 agree with me, any removal of gaskets or packing from any 8 identification.) 8 hydraulic elevators. Was that work that was being done 9 And they're personal sampling forms. 9 there? 10 A Yes. 10 A If it was done -- it's a possibility that it was 11 Q Are you aware of any other documents than these 11 done, but it wasn't highlighted. 12 sampling forms that would describe for me the type of work 12 Q And to the extent that a worker was involved in 13 that was being done during the actual air sampling? 13 any of these processes, that's not going to be included in 14 A This is the most comprehensive information on 14 the study done by Otis in 1983? 15 the work that was actually being done. 15 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 16 Q Okay. I saw, for instance, some summaries of 16 A Well, if you're -- if you're saying there was no 17 reports that had abbreviated versions of this, but if I -- 17 removal of floor tile, I can agree that that didn't occur. 18 this is the most detailed, accurate information I can get 18 But as far as gaskets go, I just don't know. It was not 19 of the type of work being done; correct? 19 detailed in the reports. There's a good chance that that 20 A Correct. 20 work did occur during this study; unfortunately, there's 21 Q And people that were doing this work were not 21 just not enough detail to tell me that. I didn't see it 22 doing installation; correct? 22 noted. 23 A There were a couple of construction sites, yes. 23 Q Now you admitted, I think earlier, that you felt 24 Q Was anybody drilling holes into doors that had 24 like you were qualified to read industrial hygiene samples 25 asbestos in them? 25 and reports; did I understand that correctly? Page 322 Page 324 1 MR. MORFORD: Objection. Otis didn't do that at 1 A Yes. 2 this time, he told you that. 2 Q What qualified you to do that? 3 Q That's kind of the point, that at that time no 3 A My training and, in the position of a safety 4 one was drilling holes in asbestos doors so that's not 4 manager, my training in that regard to understand wha 5 something that would be reflected in those studies; 5 these documents mean. 6 correct? 6 Q Do you know what a cohort is? 7 A That's correct. 7 A A cohort? 8 Q And no one is removing or installing asbestos 8 Q Um-hum, in terms of an industrial hygiene study. 9 tiles during these studies; correct? 9 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 10 A This is all studies conducted under the scenario 10 A No. I don't know what that term means. 11 that every building that they tried to -- every building 11 MR. MORFORD: Are you confusing industrial 12 that they went into already had bulk samples of asbestos 12 hygiene studies and epidemiology studies? 13 in the buildings, in other words, there was insulation in 13 MS. DEAN: No. My understanding is that it 14 the buildings that contained some amount of asbestos. An I 14 could be used in both. 15 the work performed was normal work, normal work 15 Q Have you ever heard the two -- I'll just 16 activities. 16 represent to you that if there's a group of people 17 But they also performed the type of work 17 studied, as Otis did, and that they got material on it, 18 activities that would be most likely to create a hazard to 18 that the group is called a cohort. 19 make sure that the industrial hygienist had an opportunity 19 Have you ever heard of diluting a cohort? 20 to pick up the worst case scenarios. 20 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 MS. DEAN: I'll object, nonresponsive. 21 A No. 22 Q Did any of the work that was done involve the 22 Q Okay. Would you agree with me that if you're 23 removal or installation of asbestos products? 23 studying people that aren't doing the activity that is in 24 MR. MORFORD: If you know. 24 question, at least in part, that that's going to dilute 25 A Not that I am aware of, no; not that I can glean 25 your results? 81 (Pages 321 to 324) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 325 Page 327 1 A In general, I understand what you're saying, 1 was if you weren't there? And it's very typical for 2 that could be true, yes. 2 people in our business to do their paperwork in the -- on 3 Q So, if everyone was -- 3 the job site where they're working. 4 A But, fortunately, that never happened here. 4 Q There's certainly nothing about doing paperwork 5 MS. DEAN: Object to the nonresponsive portions. 5 that would disrupt asbestos, that you're aware of; 6 Q So if, for instance, we were studying the amount 6 correct? 7 of asbestos in the air while I was working on paperwork, 7 A No. 8 that's not going to be very useful in determining the 8 Q And have you looked -- 9 amount of asbestos danger from working on paperwork; 9 A There isn't. 10 correct? 10 Q I'm sorry. And have you looked through the 11 MR. MORFORD: Well, objection. 11 various applications of work being done and seen that 12 MS. DEAN: He gets to answer. 12 there's numerous, numerous types of work that were not 13 MR. MORFORD: Well, I don't think he understood 13 associated with asbestos exposure? 14 your question. But go ahead. 14 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 15 A I understood her question, because she found on 15 A Potentially all work in here was -- had -- 16 a document in here, in probably two or three places, mayb e 16 potentially all the work had a potential exposure because 17 more, that at various times a mechanic was doing his 17 every building that we went into had asbestos in the 18 paperwork while being -- while wearing an air monitor. 18 building. 19 He was still in the work environment and if 19 Q Is it your belief that asbestos without being 20 that's what he happened to be doing -- the person, the 20 disturbed creates a problem? 21 hygienist that was following him around was following him 21 A Well, I think you have to test that to be 22 in his normal course of duties; and that happened to be 22 absolutely sure. But certainly disturbing it creates a 23 his normal course of duties that day, so that's what the 23 lot better opportunity for exposure. 24 hygienist got that day. 24 Q And to the extent that you are including in the 25 Q And that's your opinion of looking at the worst 25 times of air sampling work that is not in any way touching Page 326 Page 328 1 case scenario of the hazard when doing testing? 1 or disturbing anything that is asbestos-containing, do you 2 A That one issue? I guess you could -- I guess 2 believe that that is going to be helpful in determining 3 you could pluck out of this one issue that isn't a worst 3 the amount of asbestos exposure? 4 case scenario, but there are numerous worst case scenario i 4 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 5 on car tops and in pits, on brake linings, blowing out 5 A I think you're making -- 6 generators, blowing out controllers, that I think create a 6 MR. MORFORD: Amount of asbestos exposure to 7 lot of dust and worst case scenarios. And in the 7 what? To the real workday that these guys had? 8 World Trade Center, the same thing was true. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 Q And it's your contention that when they indicate 9 MR. MORFORD: Or doing something else? 10 that general office work was done that that was done in 10 MS. DEAN: When working with asbestos. So let's 11 the field setting? 11 make the record -- 12 A Yes. 12 MR. MORFORD: Make it -- 13 Q What's your basis for that? How do you know 13 MS. DEAN: Let me interrupt. I want to make the 14 that? 14 record clear. 15 A Well, I think that at the top of the form it 15 MR. MORFORD: -- clear. Because he's told you 16 tells you the contract number. 16 what this was. 17 Q Tells you what? 17 MS. DEAN: I got it. 18 A The contract number of the elevator being worked 18 MR. MORFORD: And you're taking it as something 19 on. 19 different. You're taking it as the amount of 20 Q How does that tell that you that the work that 20 exposure when working with asbestos, he's saying it's 21 is labeled "office work" is being done in an -- 21 the amount of exposure to people working on 22 A Well -- 22 elevators. 23 Q -- in an elevator? 23 MS. DEAN: Got it. You've made your objection. 24 A Why else would you put the number of the 24 Let me try to correct it. 25 elevator on the top and the location of where the building 25 MR. MORFORD: All right. 82 (Pages 325 to 328) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 329 Page 331 1 Q Let me ask the question so the record -- 1 not what I saw. 2 A But there's over 800 hours of work here. 2 A What you're seeing is work conducted -- normal 3 MR. MORFORD: Let her ask -- 3 elevator work conducted in the workplace by elevator 4 Q Otherwise the record is a mess. 4 employees, in an environment where asbestos is known to 5 MR. MORFORD: Pat, stop. Let her ask the 5 exist in the building and in some of the components of the 6 question. Put your hand down, please. 6 elevator. 7 THE WITNESS: All right. 7 Q Here's what I want to distinguish, not trying to 8 Q Do you believe that if you were monitoring work 8 determine the background level of asbestos in an elevator 9 that in no way puts you in contact, let alone disturbs, an 9 context, but the amount of asbestos you would be exposed 10 asbestos-containing component, gives you a sense of the 10 to while doing activities that require you to work with 11 danger that might be posed when you working around -- 11 something that has asbestos in it. 12 working with asbestos? 12 Now, with that kind of understanding of the 13 A I didn't get your question. Start again, 13 questions I'm asking, I'm going to start off by saying 14 please. 14 there are work -- there's work that an elevator mechanic 15 Q Sure. Do you think that if you're studying work 15 does that does not involve asbestos at all; correct? In 16 that does not in any way disturb or put you in contact 16 terms of working with asbestos product, not in terms of 17 with something that is asbestos-containing, and monitoring 17 background level. 18 that, gives you an idea of the amount of asbestos exposure 18 A Yes. 19 when you're working with something that does have asbestos 19 Q If I'm cutting a wire that has plastic on it, 20 in it? 20 I'm not going to have exposure from that work except to 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 what may be in the background; is that fair? 22 A There was a lot of air movement in an elevator 22 A Yes. 23 machine room caused by an updraft from the elevator 23 Q And what this study did is included all of the 24 traveling up and down the elevator shaft below you, 24 different things that an elevator mechanic did that did 25 there's holes in the floor; so that air from the elevator 25 not involve direct work with asbestos product -- Page 330 Page 332 1 shaft is coming into the machine room. 1 A Not true. 2 You have generators running in the machine room 2 Q -- in that study? 3 creating a fan, so you have air movement caused by them 3 A That is absolutely not true. 4 You have an air conditioner, perhaps, or a fan 4 Q If it was normal thing for elevator to do that 5 in the machine room to keep air moving to keep the 5 was in service or modernization, such as paperwork, was 6 equipment cool. All of that has the potential to move 6 that included, even if it didn't involve working with an 7 dust around the machine room environment. 7 asbestos product? 8 So even though you're just standing there or 8 A Yes. 9 filling out a document, there is a potential, if you don't 9 Q Are you familiar with peak exertion levels for 10 examine it, to see if there's any airborne asbestos when 10 the OSHA requirements in addition -- 11 you go know that the insulation in the building contains 11 A Yes. 12 asbestos. 12 Q -- to the time-weighted average? 13 Q And so that would give you an idea of the 13 A Yes. 14 background level of asbestos when you weren't doing work 14 Q Does Otis make an effort to follow those as 15 on asbestos; correct? 15 well? 16 A Absolutely. 16 A Yes. 17 Q What if I wanted to know the amount of asbestos 17 Q Okay. Have they determined in any of the 18 exposure working you're on an asbestos product? 18 sampling that they've done that they violated those 19 A Then you look at the other 800 hours of work 19 requirements? 20 that are in these documents and look at that instead of 20 A They did not violate those requirements. 21 the four or five hours that you've talked about. 21 Q I want to hand you -- before I get to this, do 22 Q Is it your contention that 800 hours of that 22 you know how the time-weighted average calculation was 23 work was done on asbestos products? 23 done? 24 A I'm sorry? 24 A Not exactly. 25 Q I mean, in looking in those documents, that's 25 Q More specific, here's my concern: If they did 83 (Pages 329 to 332) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 333 Page 335 1 sampling for three hours and 42 minutes, you see things 1 this before. 2 like that, where they specify the amount of time? 2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 38 was marked for 3 A Right. 3 identification.) 4 Q And then they convert it into a time-weighted 4 A Yes, I've seen this before. 5 average? 5 Q I'd like to you turn to the page that is tabbed 6 A Right. 6 on the side there, if you would. 7 Q Did they assume that there was no asbestos 7 And you see there the Workday Variability Chart? 8 exposure the remaining amount of those eight hours that 8 A Yes. 9 were not included; do you know? Are you able to follow 9 Q It has airborne concentrations and they're 10 what I'm asking? 10 measured in fibers per cc in terms of hours? 11 A Yes, I think I follow what you're asking. What 11 A Yes. 12 was condensed was the time that was measured, not the tim e 12 Q Okay. And you see concentrations that go up to 13 that wasn't measured. In other words, if they only 13 one fiber per cc; correct? 14 monitored something for three hours they didn't add five 14 MR. MORFORD: A concentration. 15 hours of where they didn't monitor. 15 A I see a concentration, right, of one fiber 16 Q That's your understanding of what they did? 16 per cc. 17 A Absolutely. 17 Q And this is, my understanding, from the 18 Q So you don't believe that the time-weighted were 18 beginning of the document Air Monitoring Plans for Otis 19 converted to an eight-hour time-weighted average? 19 Service Personal that was part of correspondence from 20 A No, I don't. 20 October 23rd, 1983; is that correct? 21 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 21 A I believe so. 22 A Not in that manner. 22 Q And I'm -- in looking at the document in its 23 Q I want to mark as Exhibit 37 a memorandum from 23 entirety, that's what I think it is. But look at it and 24 1938 and ask you to look at that memorandum. 24 tell me if that's what you think this is. 25 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 37 was marked for 25 A Okay. Ask me your question again. Are you Page 334 Page 336 1 identification.) 1 referring to the same document we just looked at? 2 MR. MORFORD: We already marked this earlier 2 Q Yeah. 3 today. 3 A The Workday Variability Chart; is that what 4 MS. DEAN: Did we? He'll just be super, super 4 you're asking me questions on? 5 happy about this document. 5 Q Yeah. If you look at the beginning of the 6 A Okay. I'm familiar with this. 7 Q This is an Internal Correspondence from 6 document in its entirety, it's from October 26, 1983. 7 A Right. 8 Otis Elevator on April 6th, 1983? 8 Q And it says: "Air Monitoring Plans for Otis 9 A Yes. 9 Service Personnel." 10 Q From P. W. Kilduff? 10 A Yes. 11 A Yes. 11 Q And then it gives a list of different things 12 Q Am I saying his name correctly? 12 that have been done, from sampling locations to 13 A Kilduff. 13 determining the exposure to asbestos in building 14 Q Kilduff. And he was a safety manager? 14 insulation; and then all of these documents were attached 15 A Yes, he was. 15 to it as one exhibit in a previous deposition. 16 Q And one of the things I see under Service and 16 A Yes. 17 Maintenance on the second page is that: "The potential 17 Q And so I'm wondering if you know if these were 18 exposure in these operations can be high or low." Did I 18 the results that are being referred to in this 19 read that correctly? 19 October 26th, 1983 letter. Because of the way it's 20 A Yes. 20 packaged, that's what I'm assuming, but I don't know that 21 Q And this is -- well, I guess, can you give me 21 to be true -- because of the way it's packaged and 22 any idea what was meant by high in a quantitative -- 22 numbered. 23 A The OSHA action level, I would say is high. 23 MR. MORFORD: You know, I'm certain what we 24 Q Okay. The next document I want to give you, I'm 24 produced in this case was done in a more orderly, 25 want to mark as Exhibit 38, and ask you if you've seen 25 chronological fashion. 84 (Pages 333 to 336) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 337 Page 339 1 MS. DEAN: This chart wasn't, and neither was 1 A Yes. 2 the bulk sampling information that was before it, and 2 Q Who are they? 3 so I didn't know -- and there's also these -- 3 A Too numerous to even think of; but, I mean, Otis 4 MR. MORFORD: Graphs. 4 has acquired many companies in North America. 5 MS. DEAN: -- graphs that weren't. 5 Q Have they acquired ESCO? 6 MR. MORFORD: We produced them because they were 6 A Yes. 7 responsive to discovery, not because we knew exactly 7 Q Did they sell elevators under the name ESCO? 8 where they fit into the chronological order. 8 A I think -- I think for a short time they did 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 after they acquired it, but ESCO continued to make some 10 MR. MORFORD: We were just trying to be 10 elevators. So, in reality, Otis owned them at the time 11 cooperative. 11 they were still selling elevators for a while. 12 MS. DEAN: These weren't produced. 12 Q Do you know anything about the nature of the 13 MR. MORFORD: They were produced. 13 purchase, meaning, do you know if Otis Elevators acquired 14 MS. DEAN: I'm not going to say I can't make a 14 both the liabilities and the assets for ESCO? 15 mistake, but my understanding, these Workday 15 A No, I don't. 16 Variability Charts were not produced. 16 Q Who would I talk to, to figure that out? 17 MR. MORFORD: They have an Otis Bates number on 17 MR. MORFORD: Probably me. 18 them? They've been produced. 18 A Yeah, I'm thinking that too. 19 MS. DEAN: In another lawsuit, but not -- 19 MR. MORFORD: I don't know the answer. 20 MR. MORFORD: Well, so was this document 20 A That's a pretty old acquisition so some research 21 introduced, I know you don't have the same number 21 would have to be done. 22 that we gave you on this case either. So, you've 22 And I'm not even sure that Otis kept it. I'm 23 been using exhibits from a variety of cases, which is 23 pretty sure they acquired it, I don't think they kept it 24 leading to some confusion, but -- 24 forever. They may have resold it. 25 MS. DEAN: And we can get into an argument if I 25 Q Does this sound accurate to you, that they -- Page 338 Page 340 1 had it before or not. 1 that ESCO manufactured -- excuse me, that Otis 2 Q I'm wondering if you're able to tell me this 2 manufactured hydraulic elevators under the name ESCO that 3 is -- if these charts are the compilation of data that was 3 were made in Fort Worth into the early 1990s, can you 4 ascertained during this air monitoring plan done for Otis? 4 verify whether that's true or not? 5 A Well, I'm starting to now think, if you go down 5 MR. MORFORD: Fort Worth, Texas? 6 further through this package of documents that you've 6 MS. DEAN: Yes. 7 handed me, July the 5th, 1984, there was a summary done o f 7 A I'm probably going to make a mistake. I do 8 a particular region, and I think that's where this chart 8 know -- 9 thing you're talking about appears, not as a result of 9 MR. MORFORD: Only if you know. 10 this October 26th, 1983. 10 A I do know that Otis installed hydraulic 11 In other words, this is all one package, but 11 elevators from ESCO, a certain type, or if they didn't 12 it's got a whole series of dates going down through it. 12 manufacture it themselves, they may have gone to ESCO t 13 Q And what is it a summary of? 13 get the elevators from them for a certain load or duty. 14 A Looks to me like it's a summary from July 5th, 14 So, definitely, Otis installed ESCO elevators 15 1984. 15 under the Otis logo at some of that time during -- that 16 Q Okay. Of air sampling? 16 time period, I'm going to say also around '80s or '90s, 17 A Of air sampling. 17 early '90s. 18 Q Okay. That gets me where I need to be. 18 Q Okay. 19 Do you know any of the companies that were used 19 A But as far as the acquisition goes, I think it 20 by any local Otis offices to do bulk sampling on asbestos 20 was kind of a convoluted acquisition, so I just don't know 21 found in buildings? 21 for sure how that went. 22 A I don't. 22 Q So I have new fun things to learn. 23 Q Are there other elevator service companies that 23 A Yes. 24 Otis has acquired throughout the years that you're aware 24 MR. MORFORD: You and me both. 25 of? 25 Q You can accredit Wikopedia for that. 85 (Pages 337 to 340) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 341 Page 343 1 MR. MORFORD: The most reliable source ever 1 any case that was pending from asbestos while I was there 2 since you could go to it -- 2 Q Have you ever met somebody that has 3 MS. DEAN: I could. 3 mesothelioma? 4 MR. MORFORD: Did you track who made that 4 A No, I haven't. 5 change? 5 Q There are a few background questions that I have 6 MS. DEAN: No. 6 to ask. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? 7 MR. MORFORD: You should do that. 7 A No. 8 MS. DEAN: But the things that I could enter. 8 Q Have you ever sued anyone? 9 Q Does the name Braun Intertech mean anything to 9 A No, I haven't. 10 you in terms of an asbestos company used by Otis? 10 Q Other than the deposition involvement that 11 A No. 11 you've talked about, have you ever been involved with a 12 Q Have you ever heard of a product called 12 lawsuit before? 13 Asbestolux? 13 A No, I haven't. 14 A No, I haven't. 14 Q Can I ask you your age? 15 Q Since you have been retired, I'm assuming you're 15 A Yes, you can. Sixty-one. 16 not receiving a salary from Otis anymore? 16 Q One of the cardinal rules that I see in every 17 A No, I'm not. 17 employee handbook for Otis Elevators is to test and 18 Q How are you compensated for your time during 18 verify; have you seen that? 19 these depositions? 19 A Yes. 20 A I invoice Otis Elevator for my time. 20 Q And if they are going to tell their elevator 21 Q What's the rate that you charge? 21 mechanics that you need to test and verify something, 22 A One hundred to $125 an hour. 22 that's certainly something they should be taking to heart 23 Q Depending on -- 23 as well; correct? 24 MR. MORFORD: How nasty you get. 24 A Yes. 25 A How nasty the lawyers are. 25 Q And do you think that there's anything wrong Page 342 Page 344 1 MS. DEAN: Where I do fit in? 1 with the fact they never tested in the '30s, '40s, '50s, 2 A It's usually $125 an hour. 2 '60s or '70s their asbestos products to determine dangers? 3 Q Okay. Does that change if you're testifying in 3 A No, I don't. 4 trial as opposed to at deposition? 4 MR. MORFORD: This looks promising. 5 A No. No, it doesn't. 5 MS. DEAN: It is. I suggest taking a short 6 Q Does that change if you're looking at documents 6 break. I think we're about done. 7 or meeting with the attorneys the day before as opposed to 7 MR. MORFORD: We just took a break. 8 doing a deposition? 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7:19 p.m., we're 9 A No, it doesn't. 9 off the record. 10 Q Do you still receive a pension from Otis? 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 A Yes, I do. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 7:22 p.m., we're bad 12 Q Do you receive stock from them? 12 on the record. 13 A No, I don't. 13 BY MS. DEAN: 14 Q Do you receive medical benefits? 14 Q I'm going to hand you what I've marked as 15 A Yes. 15 Exhibit 39. Do you recognize that? 16 Q I'd be surprised, but are you on any type of 16 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 39 was marked for 17 bonus structure where you still receive a bonus from them? 17 identification.) 18 A No, I don't. 18 A I don't know. I may have seen it before, I just 19 Q Have you -- do you know if working with Otis 19 don't recall where or when. It seems to me I probably 20 Elevators has ever made someone sick from asbestos-related 20 have seen it. I don't remember very well. 21 disease? 21 Q The front of it says "A Study to Determine 22 A No, I don't know. 22 Asbestos Exposure Associated with Drilling Replacement 23 Q Is that something you've ever asked? 23 Brake Linings for Use on Otis Elevators;" correct? 24 A Well, in my function as safety director that 24 A Yes. 25 would have come to my attention; so, I was not aware of 25 Q And it was created for Joe, who is the attorney 86 (Pages 341 to 344) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 345 Page 347 1 sitting with you; correct? 1 first time you've seen it was yesterday? 2 A Yes. 2 MR. MORFORD: Objection. He answered the first 3 Q Do you know anything about Sandler Occupational 3 time he saw it. 4 Medicine Associates? 4 A Right. I believe I saw it yesterday. 5 MR. MORFORD: By the way, I'm going to object to 5 Q I wanted to just quickly attempt to go through 6 this. We have not produced this in this case. We 6 the areas that I've identified. The Exhibit A, to start 7 don't intend to use Sheldon Rabinovitz in this case, 7 off, lists some topics that I wanted to talk to you about. 8 and what an expert does in one case compared to 8 And the first asked about the presence of Otis elevators 9 another case shouldn't apply. 9 in a large list of buildings; do you see that? 10 So go ahead and ask. 10 A Yes. 11 MS. DEAN: I think there's still limited use to 11 Q And my understanding is that a search is 12 it. 12 underway to get me those documents; is that fair? 13 Q But do you know anything Sandler, Sandler 13 A Yes. 14 Occupational Medicine Associates? 14 MR. MORFORD: You've got some of them, Pat's 15 A No, I don't. 15 reviewed those as well. Everything you've reviewed, 16 Q Do you know how much Dr. -- 16 he's got. 17 MR. MORFORD: Rabinovitz. 17 MS. DEAN: Yeah, I've seen -- I've seen them on 18 Q -- Rabinovitz was paid? 18 the Federal Reserve. 19 A No, I don't. 19 MR. MORFORD: Yeah. 20 Q If you go to the tabbed page. 20 MS. DEAN: And I think I understand those. 21 A Yeah. 21 Q The next document is about the presence of any 22 Q What I want you to look at is where he talks 22 of defendant's elevators in the State of Minnesota from 23 about Otis brake pads that he used, and do you see there 23 1961 to 1990; do you see that? 24 that one them had 75 percent asbestos. 24 A Yes. 25 A Yes. 25 Q And do you know if Otis has done anything in Page 346 Page 348 1 Q And I just earlier had represented to you that I 1 order to search -- a larger search to determine elevators 2 saw that and wanted you to have a chance to look at that. 2 in the State of Minnesota? 3 Now that you have, you know, is that -- is that 3 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 4 range of having between 35 and 75 percent asbestos makeup 4 A I don't personally know what they've done to do 5 consistent with your understanding of Otis brakes? 5 that. 6 MR. MORFORD: Objection. 6 Q Okay. And I think we've talked earlier -- well, 7 A I think I told you, the only other MSDS that I'd 7 we have talked earlier about it so we'll go on. 8 seen were about 50 percent chrysotile. 8 The third subject is defendant's knowledge of 9 Q Okay. And here he's found some that have a 9 potential health hazards associated with asbestos from 10 little bit less with 35 percent and some with more at 10 1920 to 1990; correct? 11 75 percent? 11 A Yes. 12 A That's correct. 12 Q And you said that prior to the time that you 13 Q Okay. And if you go to page eight -- you know 13 were there, you couldn't know what people knew and did not 14 what? We'll just leave it at that. 14 know; is that fair? 15 A All right. 15 A That's fair. 16 Q Last thing I want to hand you is Exhibit 40. 16 Q Do you know anyone who historically has been 17 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 40 was marked for 17 there as long as or longer than you that still works for 18 identification.) 18 the company? 19 Q Which is the notice for today's deposition. 19 A No, I don't. 20 Have you seen that before? 20 Q Have you looked at the current list that Otis 21 A Yes. 21 maintains of employees? 22 Q When did you first see it? 22 A No. I'm going by my memory of when I left. 23 A Yesterday, I believe. 23 But, in corporate, I don't know anyone with my kind of 24 Q I'll represent to you that it's something that 24 tenure. 25 was given to Otis in June, and you're telling me that the 25 MR. MORFORD: And experience. 87 (Pages 345 to 348) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 349 Page 351 1 A And experience, right. 1 purchasing personnel and their last known address. Is 2 Q Can you turn to page eight where -- you know 2 that something that you've looked for or that Otis has 3 what? We're not looking at the same document. But can 3 looked for? 4 you turn to Item 14? 4 MR. MORFORD: Could tell me when you want that 5 A Item 14, okay. 5 information from and to? 6 Q Actually, let's move to 13 first. 6 MS. DEAN: It talks about -- talk to other 7 It says: "Any and all sales literature, 7 people that sold Otis Elevators. I don't know about 8 including but not limited to sales brochures and 8 the -- 9 promotional literature regarding Defendant's 9 MR. MORFORD: When? What years? 10 elevators." 10 MS. DEAN: Oh, when? I'm sorry. As far back as 11 Have you done any kind of search in order to 11 you've got them. I mean, I'm assuming that there 12 determine the sales brochures, such as the Southern Power 12 aren't going to be people that -- he started in '63. 13 and Industry, where Otis has sold throughout the years? 13 Elevators that he worked on would have been sold 14 A No, but I'm sure Mr. Morford has. 14 years before then, so, I mean, as far back, given the 15 Q Okay. And you indicated that there is a 15 life span of the average person, as you've got them. 16 marketing department but you couldn't tell me any of the 16 Q Back to the original question. Is that 17 employees in that department; is that fair? 17 something you know -- let me go back. 18 A Yes. 18 My understanding is you do at least have a list 19 Q Okay. The next set asks for: 19 of current employees; correct? 20 "Any and all lists, indexes, business cards or 20 A Yes. 21 any other documents reflecting the name of the 21 Q And that's -- is that something that you've 22 companies or individuals who sold Defendant's 22 looked for in order to identify those that are purchasing 23 elevators." 23 personnel? 24 Is that something that you've looked for? 24 A I know that Mr. Morford is working on this 25 A Not personally, but I'm sure Mr. Morford has. 25 request to provide you with purchasing personnel. But I Page 350 Page 352 1 MR. MORFORD: What do you want to know for? 1 haven't done anything myself on that. 2 Q Do you know if Elevators, Incorporated ever 2 Q Is the same true for engineering and assistant 3 sold, manufactured, installed or adjusted Dover -- excuse 3 engineering personnel? 4 me, not Dover, but Otis Elevators? 4 A Yes. 5 A Elevators, Incorporated? 5 MR. MOORE: I don't think the current list 6 Q Yes. Is that a company name you've heard? 6 really matters very much for someone who may have 7 A No. It's not one I'm familiar with. 7 worked, maybe, potentially worked with the product at 8 Q Is that something that's been searched? That's 8 some point in the '60s or '70s. That's what we have. 9 a company that Mr. Engle worked for. 9 Q Eighteen asks for drawings, schematics of 10 A I don't know anything about them. 10 elevators and other component parts that were used 11 Q And then the next request is about cautions and 11 therein. 12 specifically includes information about material safety 12 We saw a few of those. But if I wanted to know 13 data sheets; correct? 13 what has been looked at and what kind of search has been 14 A Yes. 14 done, again, I would have to talk to your attorney; is 15 Q And we've looked at one those today; is that 15 that correct? 16 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 A Yes. 17 MR. MORFORD: And I'm happy to comply with that 18 Q And in terms of the search that was done to find 18 request so long as you tell me what building in 19 that and to see what other ones exist, I would -- I would 19 particular and when, and we'll try to find a drawing 20 need to talk to your attorney; is that fair? 20 for you. 21 A Yes. 21 Q And it's fair to say that when it comes to the 22 MR. MORFORD: By the way, we've given you all of 22 current net worth of Otis, you're not a financial guy, 23 them that we were able to locate through a complete 23 you're not the guy to talk to? 24 search of the company. 24 A Right. 25 Q The next one asks for a list of Defendant's 25 Q Is that fair? 88 (Pages 349 to 352) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 353 Page 355 1 A I would look at their annual report, I think. 1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 2 Q But if I wanted to question anything about that 2 3 report, about the losses, the profits, the sales. 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 A I would not be the person to ask. 5 MS. DEAN: Okay. That's all the questions I 4 COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH 5 I, the undersigned authority, certify 6 have subject to questions by other attorneys? 7 MR. MORfOrD: Is anybody on the phone? 6 that PATRICK DOWSON personally appeared before me and 7 was duly sworn. 8 Is anybody still on the phone? 8 9 MR. SCOUTON: Yes. I have a question. This is 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 9th day of 10 Dave Scouton. 10 October, 2007. 11 MR. MORFORD: Yes, Dave. 11 12 CROSS EXAMINATION 12 13 BY MR. SCOUTON: 13 14 Q Going back to the start, back, way back in the 14 Dorothy A. King, RPR 15 morning when we started this deposition. 15 Notary Public - State of Florida 16 A Yes. 16 My Commission Expires: 10/25/2007 17 Q You had mentioneda reference to work,warranty 17 Commission No.: DD261047 18 work that -- that Otis might do on its elevators? 18 19 A Yes. 19 20 Q Did you saytypically, in your experience, that 20 21 a major manufacturer had a one-year or two-year warranty 21 22 on its new equipment that was installed in a particular 22 23 building? 23 24 A I may have said that, I think maybe Jessica 24 2 5 stated it, but I'd say a one-year was very common. I 25 Page 354 Page 356 1 would say also three months was not uncommon for small REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 elevator jobs; but, I'd say for multiple unit 3 installations, a year was the most common at Otis Elevator 4 Company. STATE OF FLORIDA : COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH 5 Q Okay. And so -- and would it be typically, if 6 Otis had the service contract on its elevator for a given I, Dorothy A. King, RPR, certify that I was 7 customer, that no other elevator companies would be 8 involved in the service or repair on that equipment? 9 A That's absolutely true. 10 MR. SCOUTON: That's all I've got. Thank you. authorized to and did stenographically report the 8 deposition of PATRICK DOWSON; that a review of the transcript was requested and that the transcript is a true 9 and complete record of my stenographic notes. 10 I further certify that I am not a relative, 11 MR. MORFORD: Anyone else on the phone, please? employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 12 Counsel? 13 MR. RHODES: No. 14 MR. MORFORD: We'll review, read and sign. 11 am I a relative connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the outcome of the foregoing 12 action. 13 15 We're not waiving signature, however they put it in 14 Dated this 9th day of October, 2007, in 16 Minnesota. THE CITY OF TAMPA, COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH, STATE OF FLORID A. 17 MS. DEAN: Okay. 15 18 MR. MORFORD: We're going to review. 16 17 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 7:34 p.m., we're off 18 20 the record. 19 Dorothy A. King, RPR 21 (Deposition concluded at 7:34 p.m.) 22 23 24 25 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 (Pages 353 to 356; Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 357 1 PLEASE ATTACH TO THE DEPOSITION OF PATRICK DOWSON, TAK EN IN THE CASE OF GLEN L. ENGLE AND LESLIE K. ENGLE, 2 INDIVIDUALLY AND AS HUSBAND AND WIFE, VS. 3M CORPORATE J; ET AL., ON SEPTEMBER 26, 2007. 3 4 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFORE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I HAVE READ THE FOREGOING PAGES AND, EXCEPT FOR ANY CORRECTIONS OR AMENDMENTS INDICATED ABOVE, I HEREBY 22 SUBSCRIBE TO THE ACCURACY OF THIS TRANSCRIPT. 23 PATRICK DOWSON DATE 24 25 WITNESS TO SIGNATURE DATE Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO 90 (Page 357) PATRICK DOWSON Page 358 A aafedt 4:18 abatement 182:20 abbreviate 206:11 abbreviated 321:17 abdicated 53:13 abe 128:14 abide 8:16 9:16 abilities 25:6 212:16 ability 80:2 150:8 315:21 able 8:21 12:13 19:16 20:14 21:3 34:25 64:7 79:20 87:2 115:10 141:6 145:6 147:23 168:24 174:19 175:13 255:19 257:6 302:22 333:9 338:2 350:23 abrasive 129:9 absolutely 73:18 160:14,17 170:11 202:6 234:17 235:5 250:7 310:23 317:8 327:22 330:16 332:3 333:17 354:9 abundance 216:25 abundant 216:22 ac 110:7 113:9 114:1 124:1,2,13,19 accelerates 124:20 acceleration 110:15 accept 88:9 acceptable 316:14 acceptance 9:19 access 214:5 302:3 accessible 211:19 211:23 212:3 294:5 accident 111:17 accidentally 89:14 accidents 111:8 accommodation 59:12 accredit 340:25 accumulate 176:16 accuracy 357:22 accurate 31:10 40:1 42:8,15 88:23 121:18 152:21 189:15 191:19 209:18 274:15 290:10,17 299:16 299:19 321:18 339:25 accurately 40:22 67:4 accustomed 113:7 achieve 61:6,10,22 62:7,19 achieved 61:11 78:21 acknowledge 132:6 acknowledges 100:10 acquire 39:11 acquired 338:24 339:4,5,9,13,23 acquisition 339:20 340:19,20 act 228:11 acting 11:24 157:4 225:9 action 113:12 125:22 194:18 195:1 256:16 334:23 356:11,12 actions 38:6 active 258:6 actively 48:10 260:1 activities 176:23 322:16,18 331:10 activity 174:5 324:23 actual 29:3 33:3 76:2 84:15 94:12 103:12 105:5 121:19 129:8 136:3 165:16 202:4 215:23 283:17 294:13 297:23 321:13 acute 193:14 278:10 acutely 187:6 ad 272:3,7 274:13,14 284:21 adams 2:14 add 333:14 added 57:10 75:13 addition 78:18 95:20 108:5 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289:6 competitors 21:16 22:6 23:14 compilation 338:3 complete 22:10 234:9 241:4 350:23 356:9 completed 203:12 completely 156:25 165:5 216:11,12 compliance 64:10 100:15 compliant 64:12 complied 64:18 comply 64:17 352:17 component 38:10 59:10 104:25 106:15 108:7,23 132:2 155:4 244:13 244:14 329:10 352:10 components 42:20 43:12,25 44:10,14 45:23 46:4,7 47:5,7 48:2,10 49:16,21 50:1 51:5,17 54:20 66:17 67:14,16,19 67:22 70:8 88:4,5 88:17 107:7 147:1 148:6 155:1 159:1 169:13,14 186:5 192:6,14 200:6 215:2 219:1 233:1 235:16 244:19 247:12 251:3,7,7 263:2,19 264:25 280:4 281:7 282:1 283:5 304:19 306:21 331:5 composed 216:10 216:11 composition 49:10 107:16 217:23 composure 107:1 compound 67:10,25 70:20 166:18 167:7 compounds 302:16 comprehensive 171:17 321:14 concentration 276:6 276:12 283:17 335:14,15 concentrations 99:15 214:21 335:9 335:12 conception 127:23 concern 73:19 94:2 169:21 170:11,14 170:19 185:15,16 193:5 306:22 332:25 concerned 61:7 185:14 196:1 216:9 concerning 217:22 235:19 concerns 188:15 190:6 191:11 251:4 255:20 conclude 244:23 253:11 concluded 354:21 conclusion 242:16 concrete 179:18 condensed 333:12 condition 123:13 269:15 287:10 289:3 conditioner 330:4 conditions 183:21 286:19,24 288:25 305:22 conduct 149:23 150:1 conducted 220:9 245:21 322:10 331:2,3 conductors 148:24 confident 163:1 confidential 8:2,4,17 8:20,25 9:1,9,17 141:21 142:1 confidentiality 8:9 8:13,24 9:7,12,16 9:20,21 configuration 76:25 78:16 confirm 13:4 323:6 confronting 310:5 confused 137:18,19 confusing 117:18 239:23 240:4 324:11 confusion 46:15 137:14 157:18 183:6 188:20 337:24 conjecture 68:19 connect 133:17 136:4 138:7 connected 59:14 255:1 259:14 304:8 318:16 356:11 connecticut 30:4 226:11 connection 249:23 connections 44:8 137:11 138:23,24 consequences 246:7 conservative 179:24 180:7,9,10,12 193:12 194:6,8,12 194:15 195:5,9,10 consider 281:6 288:17 considerable 289:5 consideration 168:23 222:1 278:14 considered 195:8 197:9,17 considering 287:7 289:16 consistency 140:7 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331:9 continue 121:14 313:16 318:23 continued 2:25 3:1 3:25 4:1 5:25 14:15 49:20 153:8 304:25 339:9 contour 129:4 contract 326:16,18 354:6 contracted 88:3 contractors 149:20 149:22 contradictory 182:25 control 92:9 110:15 110:22 124:13 137:10 149:5 199:18 210:14,18 226:8,20,21 246:14 286:6 287:21 288:11 289:12 300:18 controlled 246:19 controller 132:18 133:12,20 135:19 135:21 136:6,17,18 137:2,11,12,16 138:4,7,24 145:11 145:24,25 150:12 152:1,22 controllers 125:8 133:5,8 150:21 153:1 326:6 controlling 247:18 controls 171:20,20 288:19 conversation 196:4 295:2 convert 333:4 converted 333:19 conveyor 310:17 convicted 343:6 convoluted 340:20 cook 268:23 269:1 cool 330:6 cooperate 262:8 cooperation 160:25 164:2 247:21,25 cooperative 337:11 copies 89:11 91:13 207:16 271:6 290:10 292:6 copy 12:15,19 36:22 45:7 89:2,14 90:4 98:8,10,11 118:5 135:6 202:19 203:12 213:1 284:9 299:16 317:13 318:24 corner 28:13 31:5 251:23 253:20,24 corporate 10:4 11:10 20:21 41:6 42:3 82:3 157:4 202:7 204:24 206:24 209:11 265:15 348:23 corporation 1:7 2:17 2:21 3:2,7,8,8,12 4:12,17 5:15 10:5 16:6 30:19 31:14 148:18 156:7 201:14 264:22 313:24 314:4,8 357:2 correct 7:23 13:8 14:8 15:2,5,20,22 17:19,20 18:23 29:10,16,18,19 31:16,17 33:9,12 33:15,19 34:22 35:15,16,25 36:3 36:11 38:19,20,25 41:21,21 42:16,17 44:21 45:13,14 47:6 48:6 49:12,23 50:10,18 51:1 56:21 58:2,7 62:16 63:15,22 64:3,6 65:22 67:25 70:12 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 364 70:16 71:13,14,17 72:7,10,11 74:22 75:1,7 85:12,17 86:17 97:15,19 98:22,23 100:17 108:21 110:9 112:12,13 113:13 125:19 126:8 128:1 128:11,15 129:10 129:13 132:18 133:9,20 134:1 136:8 142:15,18 143:19 144:3 146:10 149:1,6 152:1 153:9,15,21 155:14 163:17 171:6,8,9,12 172:1 174:10 175:19,25 176:2,8,18,21 177:7,10 178:8 179:2,12 181:12 182:2,11,18,19 186:21 191:7 192:4 192:7 200:10,19,23 200:25 201:3,5 203:18,22 204:4,9 204:17,22 205:6,14 206:7,21 210:7,9 210:11,15 211:13 213:17 214:16 215:8,18,21 216:19 217:24 218:11 219:3 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144:23 146:4 cosmo 272:3 cost 28:7 287:9,12 287:16 289:5 couch 157:17 couched 157:14 couldnt 61:2 73:5 89:9 101:2 161:7 168:19 169:15 170:5 172:24 227:24 250:10 261:25 291:25 295:7 314:23 348:13 349:16 council 5:23 6:3 200:22 201:18,22 252:2,6,11,20 253:2,7,13 256:9 258:11,13,18 259:4 261:13 267:7 269:21 270:2,6 280:24 councils 267:12 counsel 1:15 8:10,11 47:23 157:10 237:9 241:14 318:2,15 354:12 356:10 counsels 123:3 counting 283:18 country 54:12 88:9 213:1 222:3 313:18 counts 38:6 county 1:1 355:4 356:4,14 couple 194:5 226:6 283:21 321:23 coupleminute 74:6 course 7:24 19:9 21:6 66:12 77:3 138:19 184:11 325:22,23 court 1:1,6 8:16 10:8 141:22 303:10 cover 252:1 272:12 301:16 305:3 coverage 278:17 covered 46:23 136:1 140:25 144:1 186:25 280:10 covering 131:21 132:1 134:3 138:1 139:9 140:5,8,10 141:7 261:21,22 crack 91:23 create 95:17 171:19 176:22 178:1 193:1 193:25 322:18 326:6 created 42:4,5 89:8 89:18 100:6 145:4 194:22 230:25 344:25 creates 327:20,22 creating 227:1 228:3 330:3 crime 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204:25 207:21 208:2,12,15 208:19,25 209:17 211:25 212:5,21 218:6 219:6 223:8 223:20 229:11,24 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 365 230:19 231:3 232:2 232:9 233:22 234:14 235:11,20 236:2,21 237:14 238:1,7,24 239:1,3 239:5,11 240:1,6 241:16,20,23 242:1 242:6,21 243:5,9 245:1,24 249:6,19 251:9 253:23 255:4 255:7,15,19,22 259:1,15,19 262:23 263:23 264:3,7 265:4 266:4,22 267:25 268:4,20 270:3,25 271:2,8 271:23 272:1,7,12 272:16,20 273:3,21 274:1,25 275:7,23 282:12 283:22,25 284:14 290:24 291:5,8,10,15 292:6 293:25 295:7 296:13,15 297:18 299:11 300:13,17 300:23 303:9,18 306:13 307:13,19 308:4 309:23,25 312:15 313:10,13 314:5 315:18 317:11 318:8,10,25 319:7,14 322:21 324:13 325:5,12 328:10,13,17,23 334:4 337:1,5,12 337:14,19,25 340:6 341:3,6,8 342:1 344:5,13 345:11 347:17,20 351:6,10 353:5 354:17 debilitating 313:2 decades 39:18,22 127:21 146:22 deceiving 86:9 deceleration 110:15 december 6:4 271:12 273:10 decide 37:2 decided 261:17 262:3 deciding 241:6 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director 13:8 14:13 14:16,20,22 176:2 179:21 192:25 198:14 252:20 254:6 257:1,8,23 267:21 342:24 disabilities 211:3 278:18 disability 279:15 disabled 124:2 disabling 225:19 289:4 disagree 8:5 23:1 59:18,20 101:3 120:15 121:6 229:25 230:2 250:7 250:10 260:10,13 260:17,18 disagreed 122:22 disagreeing 122:16 disagreement 9:13 122:23 disassemble 113:11 disassembling 88:18 discard 86:24 disconnect 125:8 discovery 1:16 48:20,23 114:24 115:4 117:14 162:5 233:20 235:24 236:19 337:7 discuss 144:24 258:17 304:24 discussed 58:4 104:3 134:8 discusses 116:8 discussion 8:21 56:15 147:13 232:5 319:13 344:10 discussions 55:4 disease 199:18 217:3 225:19 226:8 227:3 246:14 247:18 256:5 263:10 266:4 306:2 309:18 310:1 342:21 diseases 221:4,8 226:20 248:10 260:3 264:23 266:13 278:16 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 366 286:12,25 287:8,20 287:24 288:3 289:4 dismantled 86:7,8 86:10,13 dispersion 288:7 displayed 90:6 dispute 147:23 220:3 disrupt 327:5 distinct 32:12,14 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driver 169:2,3 315:16,17 driving 169:15 170:14,19 drop 112:19 drum 112:14,23 125:11 129:21 dry 166:2 310:8 drywall 56:7 due 86:25 112:9,9 196:6 289:9 duluth 2:12 duly 10:11 355:7 dunn 205:23 dunning 205:23 duration 197:25 durations 198:21 dust 38:6 176:16,22 176:25 178:1,4,7 178:22 179:1 210:14,18,19 211:2 211:3 214:21 215:7 215:20,24,25 216:3 216:4,7,9,16 217:1 217:5,10,23 218:10 218:21 221:3 224:22,25 225:14 225:15,16 230:16 230:25 231:5 248:3 248:12,16 249:13 249:21 250:19 254:2,12,21 277:4 278:9,10,12,19 279:10,13,16,20,20 280:14,17,18,20 281:1,11 282:2,8 282:23,24 283:16 283:18 288:21,24 289:7,12,16 291:21 304:2,7 305:23 309:19 310:2 326:7 330:7 dusts 211:6 225:16 268:22 dusty 87:17,22,23 166:13,15 duties 325:22,23 duty 340:13 dwyer 4:13 E eagan 4:15 earlier 68:15 69:14 70:2 85:13 88:20 115:8 135:10 189:9 189:10 232:18 233:13 238:20 280:11 285:8 315:13 323:23 334:2 346:1 348:6 348:7 earliest 306:19 early 23:9 24:3,4,8 24:1048:13,14,15 51:21 52:20 53:14 61:8 68:3 69:5,21 80:25 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insulation 56:24 57:6 59:21 60:22 66:25 67:13 69:21 70:1 93:4 95:7,13 132:4 134:9 136:12 137:1 148:20 184:4 184:5 288:12 291:19,19 322:13 330:11 336:14 integral 59:10 79:4 79:22 intend 112:22 345:7 intended 92:22 intensive 221:25 intent 115:19 intention 117:20 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON intentionally 292:24 293:7 interact 299:1 interacting 153:3 interaction 167:11 interchange 260:2 interested 356:11 interesting 173:5 interfaced 160:9,24 internal 5:11 54:19 55:3 57:25 58:7,11 65:14 71:21 97:8 99:25 132:17 135:18 137:24 138:5,13 145:10,12 175:16 316:8 334:7 internally 137:7 international 2:13 3:20 4:2 73:10 199:8 201:22 259:9 259:10 interpretation 68:25 69:15 interrogatories 48:23 116:22 interrogatory 49:6 115:22 interrupt 328:13 interrupted 212:23 intertech 341:9 introduced 337:21 intrude 7:15 investigated 35:8 54:22,25 55:23 invisible 254:13 invoice 341:20 involve 12:9 322:22 331:15,25 332:6 involved 12:9 19:2 20:12 41:23 154:11 182:19 202:7 217:7 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Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 375 299:4 303:5 305:21 306:14,24 307:5 308:10 309:5,6 310:20 312:23 316:25 319:25 320:5,6,12,17,19 320:20 321:1,4 322:24 323:18 324:6,10 326:13 330:11,17 332:22 333:9 336:17,20,23 337:3,21 338:19 339:12,13,19 340:8 340:9,10,20 342:19 342:22 344:18 345:3,13,16 346:3 346:13 347:25 348:4,13,14,16,23 349:2 350:1,2,10 351:7,17,24 352:12 knowing 31:18 93:23 267:8 306:6 knowledge 26:13 27:10,10 31:17 63:13 69:19 88:12 103:2,6 113:2 132:11 155:5 158:22 187:12 217:4,21 227:25 229:9,13 231:21,25 267:6 310:23 316:21 348:8 knowledgeable 11:16 26:8 117:23 134:13,17,19 262:16 knowles 5:12,16 175:25 177:24 178:18 known 34:17 44:6 197:8,16 211:1 224:12 225:24 269:15 287:21 289:3 302:13 311:7 311:13 331:4 351:1 knows 162:18 255:12 kone 3:17 L lab 61:4 319:18,21 label 128:6 181:21 253:21 255:9,13 268:15 labeled 251:23 255:12 259:8 292:13 326:21 labor 295:11,14,16 295:18 laboratory 61:1,5 92:7 labors 259:8 lack 144:16 150:23 152:4 221:12 234:9 241:4 260:5 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238:6,13,17,25 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 378 239:2,4,6,16,22 240:3,16 241:14,17 241:21,25 242:3,14 242:17,25 243:8,11 243:24 244:17 245:15 246:3 248:23 249:2,14,23 250:13,16 253:22 253:25 254:25 255:6,8,17,21 256:13,20,22 257:2 257:16 258:21 259:13,17 260:12 260:15 261:21,25 262:14 264:2,6 265:10 266:3 267:4 267:17,19 268:2,17 269:24 270:4,24 271:14,17,25 272:5 272:10,14,17,22 273:20,23 275:6,22 275:24 278:25 279:23 281:2,14,16 282:17 283:19,23 284:9,11,15 286:21 289:20,23 290:21 291:2,6,9,12,16 292:2,5 294:25 295:4 296:1,3,10 296:14,18 297:6,10 297:13,21 299:5 300:12,14,18,21,24 301:5 302:4 303:7 303:13 304:14,21 306:10 307:7,16 308:2,15,23 309:5 309:7,22,24 311:23 312:5,8 313:7,11 314:6,12,16 315:6 315:14 316:17 317:24 318:1,6,9 318:12 319:19 320:9 322:1,24 323:15 324:9,11,20 325:11,13 327:14 328:4,6,9,12,15,18 328:25 329:3,5,21 333:21 334:2 335:14 336:23 337:4,6,10,13,17 337:20 339:17,19 340:5,9,24 341:1,4 341:7,24 344:4,7 345:5,17 346:6 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overall 20:3 139:4 287:11 overexposure 172:1 172:6,11,13,14,17 173:1 194:23 264:8 oversaw 319:22 320:12 oversight 320:4 overt 233:11 owned 339:10 owner 64:4 96:7 99:10,16 102:10 276:6,12 owners 41:8 64:9,9 96:13 101:6 102:1 102:3,18 103:7 185:11 186:3,5 276:17 280:6 ownership 294:24 294:25 owning 285:3 P pa 2:18 4:13,18 package 338:6,11 packaged 336:20,21 packing 54:18 155:2 323:7 packings 310:17 pads 345:23 page 5:2,3,4,5,6 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 381 12:19 13:1 28:25 31:9 33:1,2,3,4,19 36:7 41:22 45:20 46:10,25 48:20 49:6 65:3 69:23 90:12,19 116:8,11 116:18 118:7,8,17 118:23 119:7,9,10 120:9 121:19,19,21 121:21,22,25,25 122:18 123:4 128:13,21 131:20 135:5,9,10,16 142:5 143:25 144:7 144:19 145:20 149:3 150:19 156:1 174:23,24 181:21 181:22 188:6,11 202:20 203:5,11 204:3,11,19 205:2 205:4,18 206:5 208:8,8 209:1 210:17 211:22 219:8,14,16 221:18 221:19 226:15 237:16 247:3 248:20 252:16 253:19 255:9,11,24 258:19 268:15 269:5 271:14,19 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plaques 266:5 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 382 plaster 56:7 plastic 140:5,9,17 331:19 plasticcoated 138:9 plate 75:9,10,11,13 plausible 307:24 play 150:4 299:6 plays 288:6 please 9:18 10:8 36:14,21 37:5 38:4 38:17 49:18 54:6 66:23 68:9 94:7 119:21 177:11 183:8 200:7 267:25 317:24 329:6,14 354:11 357:1 plenty 80:24 pleural 266:5 pllp 3:9,14 pluck326:3 pneumoconiosis 279:7,9 point 9:2 35:2,22 36:13 42:1 57:17 61:6 62:18,24 63:9 86:23,25 116:8 118:15 130:7 175:12 180:3 198:5 204:23 220:11 223:21 251:20 263:17 267:4 291:13,18 293:11 322:3 352:8 pointed 18:5 93:2 166:16 283:15 points 125:7 policy 92:18 95:22 100:1,3 101:22,23 293:3 pop 24:17 popular 85:16 population 269:17 304:10,17 portion 9:3 36:11 43:20 46:22 81:18 120:6 126:25 155:11 185:18 224:1,17 231:4 265:4 305:4 portions 21:19 25:10 26:1 74:5 85:7 86:3 98:7 133:24 148:3 158:23 169:6 170:20 195:3 216:20 219:7 309:17 315:19 317:12 325:5 pose 186:20 posed 183:1 187:15 329:11 position 11:4 13:7 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152:11 253:5 336:15 previously 142:22 price 294:6 primarily 42:8 65:19 109:23 170:4 224:20 primary 24:5 prime 289:4 principal 279:12 principally 224:21 principles 226:22 print 46:1 119:1 309:10 printed 299:9,17 prior 18:12,22 22:13 22:13,14 25:24 35:9 67:12 68:20 73:13 95:4 124:1,5 141:21 154:14 179:9,25 187:2 234:13 242:20 245:18 258:13 294:22 306:24 308:19 315:23 316:24 348:12 privilege 159:8 probable 243:18 244:2 probably 28:2 42:6 42:19 48:17 58:22 61:7 63:14 76:6 80:21 81:15 82:7 88:23 102:11 109:20 111:21 139:22 140:1 150:18,18 151:11 155:15 161:14 179:3,6 185:21 190:15 196:8 215:4 224:21 227:23 242:12 244:23 271:23 272:1 295:5 295:22 318:6 325:16 339:17 340:7 344:19 problem 9:10 69:8 69:16 73:1 80:19 111:1,5,13 112:6 125:21 126:9,10 131:7 162:2 170:15 171:11 185:6 192:21 194:4 214:20 216:7 217:4 225:8 235:7 242:11 242:11 245:20,22 246:1,5,8 255:18 303:2 307:22 327:20 problems 73:20 79:16 176:5 185:7 186:20 210:19 215:6 221:9 288:23 289:11,16,17 303:6 procedure 1:17 7:6 120:24 126:19,23 129:20 130:1,3 290:16 procedures 92:23 254:11 283:18 proceed 9:9 37:2 process 41:23 49:25 66:9 67:8 75:22 81:7 87:17,22,23 113:4 159:18,23 160:6 164:7,9,10 164:13,16 165:25 166:9,13,15 169:7 169:17 300:22 processed 92:15 processes 217:8 246:19 247:6,13 323:13 produce 102:11 211:4,7 261:18 262:4 279:14 282:14 286:17 310:16 produced 161:25 163:1 181:7 209:4 242:18 248:11 286:23 290:11 291:12 310:24 318:6,13 336:24 337:6,12,13,16,18 345:6 produces 298:21 producing 245:5,6 279:10,12 product 36:18,19 39:2,7,12,15 42:5,9 49:10,11,12 50:8 50:24 55:5 59:19 59:20 67:9,20 171:18 194:25 197:5,13 227:6,6,8 227:10,16,21 228:17,18 229:16 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 383 230:4 233:3 236:11 244:12,21 245:5,6 251:4 257:21 308:7 315:13 316:14,20 330:18 331:16,25 332:7 341:12 352:7 production 48:24 276:7,13 287:12,16 289:10 productive 177:21 products 4:17 20:16 38:9 43:15,18 47:15 48:13,16 49:8 56:2 58:17 66:7 68:22 113:2 136:14,22 155:8,13 165:1 168:19 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192:20 233:2 245:6 245:7 265:3 269:3 286:10 298:23,25 302:25 304:16 306:5 311:21 312:25 355:15 publication 109:8 128:4 210:14 220:23 224:13 248:3 267:15 270:21 273:12 277:14,15 285:20 285:21,22,25 309:9 publications 40:15 267:9 publicly 111:17 published 210:6 215:16 pull 83:20 130:18 175:13 209:12 pulled 271:23 272:1 pulley 113:24 129:4 129:8,21,25 pulling 131:1 pulls 149:25 pulmonary 217:2 pump 54:15 pumps 54:4,19 273:22 purchase 339:13 purchased 27:18,20 38:24 156:10 purchasing 39:3,7 253:6 351:1,22,25 pure 216:13 purpose 8:6 22:2 24:4,12 72:12 88:6 150:7 194:14 212:20217:6 purposes 1:15,16 24:5 223:14,15 pursuant 1:15 7:5 pushed 164:6 put 11:8 42:13,17,21 44:20 45:8 50:17 55:12 57:18 59:4,5 61:2 62:7 71:9 74:25 76:18 77:8 77:23 79:17 82:18 85:15 86:3 87:10 89:3 96:22 97:1 98:7 103:21 120:20 129:23 135:7 150:5 151:23 156:15 159:1 169:21 170:8 170:9 174:19 175:4 198:17 212:17 215:13 220:17 242:8 270:5 271:23 272:1 292:10 305:3 316:3 326:24 329:6 329:16 354:15 puts 21:2 217:19 329:9 putting 35:18 70:15 165:12 169:11 175:9 228:4,17 304:23 pvc 140:9 Q qualification 281:12 qualified 19:21 20:23 23:24 127:4 127:6 323:24 324:2 qualities 216:9 quality 218:25 281:19 quantify 219:10 quantitative 217:4 334:22 quantity 16:23 17:6 217:15 230:25 231:6 276:7,13 quarry 248:16,25 question 7:25 12:22 13:3 21:17,23 22:3 23:13,19 25:11,18 25:19 26:23 28:23 34:25 36:14 37:1,3 37:9,10,16,19,20 37:22 38:15,16,17 40:1,21 49:7,18,19 51:11 53:12 54:25 58:3 61:13 63:2 64:4 67:6 68:8 69:9 69:11,20 75:5 86:9 87:19 89:6 91:25 97:22 102:20 105:25 114:20 118:16 119:13,21 119:21 120:3,7 122:4,5,12,23 131:7,11,13 132:19 132:25 133:3 135:25 136:10 139:7,19 152:8 156:13,17,18,24 157:11,20 158:5,8 159:4 161:9,15 162:11,14,17 164:5 164:8,11 169:9 172:19 173:8,12 181:3 183:6,8 188:23 189:7,20,23 189:25 191:25 192:1 195:21 196:10 200:7 202:2 208:21 209:17 212:22 213:6,7,22 213:23 219:4 220:2 223:1,18 227:14 228:7,8,23,24 233:4 234:15 235:3 235:13,14 236:5,12 237:11 238:1,14 239:2,15,16,22,24 241:9,22,22 242:7 242:22 243:24,25 244:11,25 245:2,9 245:10 249:5,15,20 249:23 250:1,4,11 250:18 256:20 258:4 260:15 262:24 263:11 268:1,13 270:13 290:9 297:8 306:23 307:21 324:24 325:14,15 329:1,6 329:13 335:25 351:16 353:2,9 questions 10:18 12:17,24 16:17 20:24 32:21 34:18 35:11 45:19 48:25 49:5 63:5 72:4 74:15 90:20 92:15 97:12,22,23 98:6 101:10 108:4 119:5 135:10 138:11 157:8,14 169:25 181:23 202:18 209:13,13 214:13 218:6 227:14 231:18 238:24 240:4,9 241:18 242:3 249:4 251:18 260:16 267:6 273:1 278:1 286:4 312:13 316:17 331:13 336:4 343:5 353:5 353:6 quick 193:15 274:17 quickly 85:1 106:18 109:24 124:20,21 347:5 quinton 3:18 quit 25:1 quite 42:19 124:5 126:21 133:2 137:21 quote 67:2,3 232:24 R rabinovitz 345:7,17 345:18 radio 15:23 radioactive 302:16 radius 129:8,8 rag 126:21 raise 80:3 raised 58:14 ramsey 1:1 ran 24:25 78:20 135:20 136:17 137:6 138:3,6,6 152:25 randomly 208:20 range 346:4 rare 123:15 125:20 167:18 168:4 rarely 105:13 139:17 rate 341:21 rating 55:17 56:8,9 57:14 59:23,25 60:6,7,10,11,19,19 61:3,6,10,11,22 62:8,19 63:19,24 64:2,13,15 ratings 60:8 raw 263:3 raybestos 6:12 107:12 155:7 319:8 raymark 106:10 rays 302:15,16 reach 40:16 reaction 279:11,12 read 16:17 17:4 19:12 34:16 37:7 38:3 46:1,18,19 65:10 67:4 90:2,7 92:16 98:1,17 99:19,22 108:16 119:2 120:6,7 122:10 127:4,6 131:3,3 135:23 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO PATRICK DOWSON Page 384 144:22 145:7 146:4 157:1 162:23 172:19 175:14 181:2 188:16 198:9 210:24 214:11 217:12,24 218:4,14 222:7,13,23 223:1 223:8,18,20 224:1 224:10 225:20 226:24 247:9 249:14 256:7 257:5 259:25 262:13,24 268:24 269:10,18 278:6,20 279:8,17 280:21 283:13,20 284:1 287:6,19,25 288:14 289:13 292:22 297:7,8 302:11,23 304:6,12 305:21 309:16 310:9 313:7,15,21 314:7 323:24 334:19 354:14 357:21 reading 15:17 65:23 65:23 66:11 67:7 69:16 99:24 119:3 119:20,22 128:25 131:13 140:2 162:25 172:22 204:2 262:18 298:11 299:21 312:23 ready 79:11 real 169:4 185:16 193:15 212:24 274:17 328:7 reality 339:10 realize 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