Document 1gvgbp82nx6rwMn1V4jZKrZYK
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2
BEAUMONT DIVISION
3 CECIL SCOTT, et al. ,
)
)
4
Plaintiffs,
)
5
-vs-
)
)
B-84-1103-CA
)
6 MONSANTO COMPANY,
)
)
7
Defendant.
)
8
The deposition of PHILIP S. SMITH, called by
9 the Defendant for examination, taken pursuant to the
10 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure of the United States
11 District Courts pertaining to the taking of
12 depositions, taken before NANCY BRUNER PARKS, a Notary
13 Public within and for the County of Cook, State of
14 Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said
15 state, taken at 3405 Algonquin Road, Rolling Meadows,
16 Illinois, on the 9th day of July, A.D. 1987, at
17 10:00 o'clock a.m.
18 19
20
21
22
23
24
WIMA (17Voffz, cJCeoszngvr...3 and c:AlocLates, il nc.
egicago, ginnois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018946
2
PRESENT:
2
GILPIN, POHL & BENNETT,
(1300 Post Oak Boulevard,
3
Houston, Texas 77056), by:
MR. MICHAEL A. POHL and
4
MR. ERIC D. NIELSEN,
5
appeared on behalf of the Plaintiffs;
6
WOODARD, HALL & PRIMM,
(4700 Texas Commerce Tower,
7
Houston, Texas 77002), by:
MR. ROBERT JONES,
8
-and-
9
SMITH, HELMS, MULLISS & MOORE,
10
(500 NCNB Building,
Greensboro, North Carolina 27420), by:
11
MR. TIMOTHY PECK,
12
appeared on behalf of the Defendant.
13
14
15
16
REPORTED BY: NANCY BRUNER PARKS, C.S.R.
17
18 19
20
21
22
23
24
lekTRIA ' VVoLfe, cRolenLEz5 and c .q5.5.ociatEs, gna.
C4icago, gifinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018947
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1
INDEX
2
WITNESS
3
PHILIP S. SMITH
4
By Mr. Jones
5
6
7
8
EXHIBITS 9
NUMBER 10
SMITH DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 11
No. 1 12
No. 2
13
14
15
16
17
18 19
20
21
22
23
24
EXAMINATION 4
MARKED FOR ID 234 241
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MONSPCB0018948
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1
MR. JONES: We are taking this deposition pursuant
9 to the Rules, is that correct?
3
MR. POHL: Yes.
4
MR. JONES: In the event that the deposition is
5 not filed -- I don't know if the witness wants to
6 review the deposition after it's been transcribed.
7
Do you care to do that, Mr. Smith?
8
MR. SMITH: Yes.
9
MR. JONES: Mike, do we have the agreement that
10 if the deposition is not returned with his signature,
11 that we can use a copy at trial?
12
MR. POHL: Yes.
13
MR. JONES: Basically the same stipulations that
14 we have had in previous depositions.
15
(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly sworn.)
16
PHILIP S. SMITH,
17 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
18 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
19
EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. JONES:
21
Q
Would you please state your full name?
22-
A
Philip S. Smith.
23
Q
Mr. Smith, where do you reside?
24
A
176 Biltmore Drive, Barrington, Illinois.
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MONSPCB0018949
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What is your ZIP Code there?
2
A
60010.
3
Q
Mr. Smith, my name is Robert Jones. I am a
4 lawyer from Houston. In this lawsuit, I represent the
5 Monsanto Company.
6
I have not met you before today, have I?
7
A
No. We have spoken on the phone.
8
Q
Spoke briefly on the phone about rearranging
9 the deposition. It was previously scheduled for
10 June 29, is that correct?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
Mr. Smith, have you had your deposition
13 taken before?
14
A
Yes, I have.
15
Q
On how many occasions have you been deposed?
16
A
Once.
17
Q
What was the title of that case?
18
A
It was a civil trial, Federal Court System.
19
Q
Do you remember what the title of that case
20 was, the parties to the case?
21
A
De Simone and a large group of stockholders
22 versus Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories and Syntex
23 Corporation.
24
Q
So you are familiar with the deposition
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MONSPCB0018950
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1 process, are you not?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Just for the record and so that you have a
4 clear understanding as to what we are doing here today,
5 I'd like to give you a brief explanation as to what a
6
deposition is.
7
You have just been placed under oath, have
8
you not?
9
A
Yes, I have.
10
Q
That oath is the same oath that you would
11 take down at the courthouse before the judge and jury.
12
Do you understand that?
13
A
Yes, I do.
14
Q
And that oath is subject to the penalty of
15 perjury, just the same as if it was at the courthouse.
16
Do you understand that?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
You can see that the court reporter here is
19 taking everything down verbatim, everything that I say
20 and everything you say.
21
What she is going to do is type it up in a
22 little booklet. You are going to have the opportunity
23 to review it. You can make whatever changes you feel 24 are appropriate on that deposition based upon your
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MONSPCB0018951
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review.
2
I am sure that our court reporter will get
3 it as clear as possible. There may be some typos or 4 something you might want to take a look at. You will 5 have the opportunity to review the deposition.
6
After you have done that, this deposition
7 can be used in connection with the trial of this case.
8
You understand that also?
9
A
Yes, I do.
10
Q
Just so that we can have a clean deposition,
11 I'd like to get a couple of understandings with you or
12 a couple of agreements.
13
First of all, I'd like to ask that you
14
continue doing what you are doing now, and that's
15
speaking audibly. It's very difficult for our court
16
reporter to take down a nod of the head.
17
A
I understand that.
18
Q
Also, we need to speak one at a time. At
19
times, I have a tendency to be rather slow with my
20
questions, and you may anticipate what my questions
21 are and then start giving an answer.
22
Please refrain from doing that. It's very
23
difficult for our court reporter to take two people
24
talking at the same time. I am sure you can
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1 appreciate that.
2
A
Yes.
3
MR. POHL: Before you ask the next question, if
4
he is going to sign his deposition, let's agree that
5
it can be signed before any notary.
6
MR. JONES: That's fine. That's pretty much the
7
way we had our other depositions. I am glad you made
8
that clear.
9
BY MR. JONES:
10
Q
Mr. Smith, also if you don't understand a
11
question that I am asking, please ask me to repeat it,
12
and I will do so, so that you can understand it.
13
If you don't ask me to repeat it, I will
14
assume that you understood my question and that your
15
answer was responsive to the question.
16
The reason that's important is, again, we
17
have the penalty of perjury involved, and it's very
18
important that you understand the questions and that
19
you give answers responsive to the questions.
20
Do you understand that?
21
A
Yes, I do.
22
Q
Also, throughout this deposition I'm
23
interested only in your personal knowledge. If you
24
don't have personal knowledge of something, please
IRV/MA (1/VoffE, RolEntEl..3. and c2tbsociatEl, ilnc.
Chicago, il ftinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018953
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1
tell me. I don't want your speculation or anything of
2
that nature. I only want to know what you know
3
personally. So please refrain from having any type of
4
assumptions or speculations.
5
Could you agree to do that?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
Would you please give me a brief description
8
of your educational background after high school?
9
A
I have a Bachelor of Science Degree with a
10
major in Biology, minor in Chemistry.
11
Q
Where did you get your degrees?
12
A
My degree was from Parsons College, formerly
13
of Fairfield, Iowa.
14
Q
Has that college had a name change or a
15
merger or anything of that nature?
16
A
It went out of business.
17
Q
What year did you get your Bachelor of
18
Science Degree in Biology?
19
A
1969.
20
Q
What were the dates that you attended
21
college there at Parsons College?
22
A
February, 1967 through February, 1969.
23
Q
So you went straight through school, then?
24
A
Parsons was the third college that I had
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MONSPCB0018954
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1 attended.
2
Q
What colleges did you attend prior to
3 Parsons?
4
A
The University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana;
5 and Elgin Community College in Elgin, Illinois.
6
Q
Was Elgin Community College the first
7 college that you attended after high school?
8
A
On a part-time basis.
9
Q
What years did you attend that college?
10
A
The Fall of 1964, like probably September
11 through February.
12
Q
February of '65?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Is that a two-year college, or is it a
15 four-year college?
16
A
I don't know what it is now. At that time,
17
it was a junior college, which would have been two
18
years.
19
Q
Where is that college located?
20
A
Elgin, Illinois.
21
Q
What types of subjects did you study at
22
Elgin Community College?
23
A
I took one course there in rhetoric on a
24
part-time basis.
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MONSPCB0018955
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1
Q
In rhetoric?
9
A
I was a part-time student. Rhetoric would
3 be like English, composition.
4
Q
And you completed that course, then?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
You also went to the University of Illinois?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
When did you attend the University of
9 Illinois?
10
A
February of 1965 through June of 1966.
11
Q
How many hours did you receive at the
12 University of Illinois?
13
A
I would guess approximately 40 to 45.
14
Q
What types of subjects did you study there?
15
A
Engineering and science courses.
16
Q
What types of engineering courses? Are you
17
talking about the basic engineering
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
You are also talking about the basic science
20
courses?
21
A
Right.
22
Q
That being biology and chemistry?
23
A
Mathematics, forestry, dendrology.
24
Q
How many hours did you have at Parsons
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MONSPCB0018956
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1 College?
2
I understand that you may not know precisely.
3 I'm trying to get an estimate.
4
A
I would say somewhere between 60 and 80.
5
Q
Was that more of a concentration then in
6
your chemistry and biology courses at that point?
7
A
That is correct.
8
Q
Now, did you take any courses at Parsons
9 College or the University of Illinois or Elgin
10
Community College that would prepare you for your
11 work in any type of laboratory testing company?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
What courses would those have been?
14
A
Anatomy courses in comparative anatomy,
15
developmental anatomy, genetics, chemistry courses as
16
well as qualitative and quantitative analysis, organic
17
chemistry.
18
Q
Is that all?
19
A
Mathematics.
20
Q
Does that pretty much sum it up, then?
21
A
Yes, sir.
22
Q
Did you receive any degree from the
23
University of Illinois or Elgin Community College?
24
A
No, I did not.
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MONSPCB0018957
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1
Q
Do you have any post-graduate work, then,
2
after Parsons College?
3
A
I attended two other undergraduate schools
4
after Parsons College.
5
Q
What are those schools?
6
A
Harper Junior College and Lake Forest
7
College.
8
Q
When did you attend Harper Junior College?
9
A
1970, I believe.
10
Q
Did you only go for one year?
11
A
I just took one course there.
12
Q
What was that course?
13
A
Calculus.
14
Q
Did you not take calculus in connection
15
with your Degree in Biology?
16
A
No, it wasn't required.
17
Q
Why were you taking calculus?
18
A
To pave the way for possibly completing a
19
major in chemistry. Calculus is a requirement for
20
physical chemistry, which was the only chemistry
21 course I was missing for a major in chemistry.
22
Q
Did you subsequently get a major in
23
chemistry?
24
A
No, I did not.
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aicayo, il ffinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018958
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1
Q
How far were you away from getting a major
9
in chemistry?
3
A
One course, physical chemistry.
4
Q
Did you take that course?
5
A
No.
6
Q
Never did?
7
A
No.
8
Q
Why did you decide not to take it?
9
A
My goal at that time had been to get into
10
veterinary medical school, and physical chemistry was
11
a requirement for that. At that point in time, I
12
needed to go to work rather than to continue in
13
school.
14
Q
When did you attend Lake Forest College?
15
A
Same time, 1970.
16
Q
Two colleges at the same time?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
Why was that?
19
A
Because one college didn't offer both
20
courses.
21
Q
What courses were you taking at Lake Forest?
22
A
Quantitative analysis It's a chemistry
23
course that several of the vet schools that I was
24
applying to required, and they would not substitute
( WOrfE, CA705.Enget9 and c:7115.1.ociates, il ne.
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1 one of my other chemistry courses for it.
2
Q
Do you have any other post-graduate work -
3 other than Harper College and Lake Forest College?
4
A
No.
5
Q
You said that you were interested in going
6 into veterinary school?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
Did you apply to any schools?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
Were you accepted?
11
A
No, I was not.
12
Q
When you weren't accepted, did you decide
13 then to forego that line of profession, then?
14
A
After several years, yes.
15
Q
How long did you attempt to apply to
16
veterinary school?
17
A
Three years.
18
Q
Do you remember some of the schools that
19
you applied to?
20
A
University of Illinois, Purdue University,
21 and I was in contact with several others.
22
Q
Do you belong to any professional
23 organizations today?
24
A
What do you mean by "professional
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1 organizations"?
2
Q
Like the Professional Engineers Association
3 and various other societies like that; for instance,
4 like the American Association of Pharmacology or
5 anything of that nature?
6
A
No.
7
Q
Are you a Certified Toxicologist?
8
A
I have no certification from any
9 association.
10
Q
Have you been trained in toxicology?
1.1
A
On-the-job training.
12
Q
In what jobs did you receive toxicology
13 training?
14
A
My employment at Industrial Bio-Test
15 Laboratories.
16
Q
Anywhere else?
17
A
I worked elsewhere. I didn't receive any
18 on-the-job training there.
19
Q
Are you a pathologist?
20
A
No.
21
Q
Have you received any training in pathology?
22 --
A
A little, yes.
23
Q
In what respect?
24
A
College education in anatomy and comparative
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MONSPCB0018961
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1 anatomy, developmental anatomy, some histology
2 techniques, genetics.
3
Q
You don't consider yourself to be an expert
4 in that field, though, do you?
5
A
No.
6
Q
I believe you said you weren't a member of
7 the American Association of Pharmacologists.
B
Are you a member of the American Board of
Toxicology?
10
A
No.
11
Q
How about the Society of Toxicologists?
12
A
No.
13
Q
Are you a Certified Clinical Chemist?
14
A
No.
15
Q
Do you have any certifications at all?
16
A
No.
17
Q
What I'd like for you to do is briefly go
18 into your employment history.
19
Were you working anywhere when you were
20 attending college?
21
A
Semesters and summers off, yes.
22
Q- I am talking about any type of a continuous
23
employment, not like in the summers or anything of
24 that nature.
INVILA/A ( W/c4fE, cRolEntvr.9 and (-41d.ociatEl,
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1
A
The semester that I attended Elgin Community
2 College, I was working full-time.
3
Q
Who were you working with at that time?
4
A
Davy Tree Expert Company.
5
Q
What did you do for them?
6
A
I was a tree trimmer.
Q
Over what period of time did you work for
8 Davy Tree Company?
9
A
I worked for them approximately two and a
10 half to three years over a six-year period from 1964
11 through 1970.
12
Q
Did you have any other employment during
13 that period of time, 1964 to 1970?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
Where did you work during that time, other
16 than with Davy Tree Company?
17
A
I worked as an assistant in the chemistry
18 lab at school.
19
Q
When did you work there?
20
A
When I attended Parsons College.
21
Q
Did you work as an assistant chemistry lab
22 technician?
23
A
I prepared free agents and solutions for
24
some of the other chemistry courses' lab work.
civoqE- , cRolEngEts and ogliociatel, il na.
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1
Q
For professors?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
And was that in connection with the courses
4 that they were teaching?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
In other words, you just assisted the
7 students in the class; is that pretty much it?
8
A
Yes. Ran the stockroom, made solutions,
9 free agents.
10
Q
Did you hold that position, then, from 1967
11 until the time that you graduated in 1969?
12
A
No, it was in 1968-69.
13
Q
You occupied that position, then, for about
14 a year?
15
A
About three months, four months.
16
Q
A semester, then?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
What else have you done by way of employment
19 after your graduation -- did you have anything else
20 during the time that you were in school?
21
A
No.
22
Q
What employment, then, did you have after
23 your graduation from Parsons College?
24
A
I worked for Adam Fritz Company.
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aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018964
20
Q
What is that company?
A
Landscape contractor.
Q
What did you do for Adam Fritz?
A
Everything involved with landscape
contracting, from planting trees to running crews,
supervising work.
Q
How long did you work for him?
A
Four or five months.
Q
What would have been the year at that point?
Would it have been
A
1969.
Q
What did you do after that?
A
Looked for employment.
Q
How long did it take you before you were
able to find employment?
A
I went back to work for Davy Tree Company
in early 1970.
Q
Same duties?
A
Yes.
Q
How long did you work for them?
A
Four or five months, I would say.
Q
That would have been in 1970?
A
Yes.
Q
What did you do after that employment, then?
(11VoffE, cRoiEngEts and c:46.1.ociatEs, Inc.
aicayo, grrinois (312)782-8087
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1
A
I was looking for employment and wound up
2
being employed by Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories.
3
Q
When did you go to work for Industrial
4
Bio-Test Laboratories?
5
A
January, 1971.
6
Q
Mr. Smith, can I have an understanding with
7
you that if I say "IBT," I'm referring to Industrial
8
Bio-Test Laboratories, Inc.?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
That's pretty much what everybody does, too?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
It's referred to as IBT on occasion?
13
A
That is correct.
14
Q
Where was IBT located at the time that you
15
went to work for them?
16
A
Their main offices were in Northbrook,
17
Illinois.
18
Q
Did they have any other offices?
19
A
They had a research farm in northcentral
20
Wisconsin outside of Neillsville, Wisconsin.
21
Q
Did they have any other offices at that
22
time in '71?
23
A
At that time I started, no.
24
Q
Did they subsequently have any other
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aicayo, ginnois (312) 782-8087
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1 offices?
2
A
Yes, sir.
3
Q
When was that?
4
A
They purchased a facility in Decatur,
5 Illinois, in the Fall of 1971.
6
Q
Other than those three facilities, did IBT
7 have any other offices?
8
A
They. had a lot of field offices around the
9
world related to the Environmental Science Group.
10
Q
What do you mean by "field offices"?
1.1
A
They had offices set up in locations where
12 they were doing environmental studies.
13
Q
But the only testing laboratories would
14
have been the three that you mentioned earlier?
15
A .No, they did testing at some of these other
16 field laboratories.
17
Q
Can you tell me where those are located?
18
A
Some of them were in Italy. I don't know
19 the town exactly.
20
Q
Do the best you can.
21
A
Quincy, Illinois. Offhand, those are the
22 _only ones that I can think of at the moment.
23
Q
How many of these field offices were there
24
across the world?
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( WorfE, cRoiEnget9 and ogss-ociales, gne.
aicayo, firrinoia (312) 782-8087
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1
A
I would guess less than six.
2
Q
How long did you work for IBT?
3
A
Approximately six and a half years.
4
Q
When did you leave IBT?
5
A
June, 1977.
6
Q
Is it fair to say, then, that during the
7
entire time that you worked for IBT you officed out
8 at the Northbrook facility?
9
A
That is correct.
10
Q
Did you ever have an occasion to visit any
11 of the other facilities or field offices?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
How often did you do that?
14
A
Once or twice a year.
15
Q
For each facility?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
That would have been Decatur and
18
Neillsville?
19
A
That is correct.
20
Q
You didn't go to any of the field offices,
21 did you?
22
A
No.
23
Q
What I'd like for you to do is cover each
24
position that you held there at IBT, and let's go
MVi IA ( Woffz, cRolEntvtg wzd oqlsocialz1, il na.
gttinci (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018968
24
1 ahead and start at the beginning in January of 1979.
2
What position did you hire in at?
3
A
I was hired as an assistant toxicologist.
4
Q
Did you have any specific toxicology
5 training, then, before you hired in with IBT?
6
MR. POHL: Other than his college work that he's
7 already testified about related to toxicology?
8
MR. JONES: I thought I understood him to say he
9 had no toxicology training while he was in college.
10
MR. POHL: I think he said he had courses in
11 various things that were helpful.
12
MR. JONES: Let me ask him.
13 BY MR. JONES:
14
Q
Did you have any training --
15
A
I thought your question was what courses I
16
had taken that would be -- that would be helpful to
17
my working in the toxicology field. As far as a
18 specific toxicology course, no.
19
Q
I believe my question was: What courses did
20
you take that would have prepared you for working in a
21 laboratory testing facility?
22
A
That is correct.
23
Q
This question dealt with toxicology.
24
Did you have any toxicology courses, then,
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aicayo, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018969
25
1 when you went to college?
2
A
No, there ware none available.
3
Q
As I understand your prior testimony, the
4 way that you gathered your knowledge concerning
5 toxicology was at your work at IBT.
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
How long did you occupy the position of
8 assistant toxicologist?
9
A
For six and a quarter years. I retained the
10
same title, and my duties changed drastically from
11 when I started to when my title changed again.
12
Q
I'd like to go into those duties and how
13
they changed, but before I do that, I'm interested in
14 how you came to be employed by IBT.
15
How did you come to go to work for them?
16
A
A landscape architect that I was working on
17
some plans for, as far as planting when I worked for
18
the Fritz Company, had a friend that worked at IBT and
19
said they did animal studies, and that if I couldn't
20
get into vet school, I ought to look into that and see
21
whether it was a place of employment that I might
22
consider.
23
Q
That would have been something, then, that
24
interested you since you were interested in becoming
111v/MA (1/Vofiz, GROSEIZtztg and c...thlociatEl, inc.
e4icago, grtinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCRnn111Q711
26
1 a veterinarian?
2
A
That is correct.
3
Q
Who was that friend that worked at IBT?
4
A
The friend of the landscape architect was
5 Claude Wolfe.
6
Q
Did he assist you in getting the job?
7
A
No.
8
Q
You just went ahead and applied on your own?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
Who interviewed you at IBT?
11
A
Mr. Jim Plank.
12
Q
Did you know Mr. Plank prior to this time?
13
A
No, I did not.
14
Q
Did you interview with anyone else?
15
A
Possibly a Mr. John Baran.
16
Q
Anyone else?
17
A
No
18
Q
And Mr. Plank subsequently hired you, then?
19
A
That is correct.
20
Q
You were going to talk about your duties,
21
and let's talk about what the duties were at the very
22
beginning of January of '71 that you occupied as
23
assistant toxicologist.
24
A
When I first started, my duties were to
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aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018971
27
1 supervise and conduct acute and chronic oral toxicity
2 studies in rats and mice.
3
Q
Could you describe in a little bit more
4 detail what that consisted of, what your day-to-day
5 activities would have been?
6
A
Day-to-day activities would have included
7 making sure that animals in the studies were fed, had
8 water; that dead animals were removed from the cages
9 and taken to the necropsy lab. And then also setting
10 up new studies and setting up the schedules with the
11 support labs that did other studies on -- that were
12 required in the protocol for acute and chronic studies.
13
Q
Did you do anything else, then?
14
A
I assisted in the necropsy lab when
15 necessary, when they were short-handed and we had a
16 large sacrifice.
17
I assisted other parts of the group that I
18 was assigned to in doing teratology studies.
19
Q
Anything else?
20
A
At the present time, I don't recall.
21
Q
Would there be anything that you could do
22
that would refresh your recollection?
23
A
At the moment, I don't think so.
24
Q
Now, you said that you fed animals and
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aicayo, girinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018972
28
1 watered animals.
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
You said that you set up new studies.
4
What did that mean?
5
A
It means getting the appropriate amount of
6 cage space for the number of animals required in the
7 study, getting the animals into the cages, setting up
8 the diets and the preparation of the diets with the
9 diet room that prepared the diets, scheduling any
10 autopsies and blood work with the appropriate
11 laboratories in the facility that did those studies.
12
Q
Now, you also said that you scheduled with
13 the support labs.
14
What do you mean by that?
15
A
The labs that conducted the blood and urine
16 analyses had to have a schedule of when they were
17
supposed to do this portion of the work, and we had in
18 our department protocols that we filled out that
19 indicated what blood or urine studies were to be done
20 and what intervals they were to be done at, and they
21 were sent to the support lab. They would schedule an
22 actual date when they could do those studies.
23
Q
Now, you said that you supervised and
24 conducted acute and chronic studies.
IMP/A
( WorfE, _.1?c.6.EngE.r.9 and SAlociatzi, gne.
egicar, grtinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018973
29
1
Now, were you a supervisor then, when you
2 first were employed by IBT?
3
A
No, I was supervising the studies.
4
Q
Okay. I understand.
5
You also said that you assisted in the
6 necropsy lab?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
What did you do there?
9
A
I would have to go in there when they didn't
10
when there were large sacrifices and they didn't
11 have enough people available to work in there and
12 assist in weighing various organs from the animals
13 that required organ weights.
14
Q
You also said that you assisted other groups
15 assigned in the teratology studies.
16
What did you do there, what kind of
17 assistance?
18
A
I assisted in sacrificing the pregnant rats,
19 examining the fetuses for any abnormal growth or
20 formation. Then I was involved in the sectioning of
21 these fetuses after they were treated to look for any
22 internal abnormalities in their formation.
23
Q
Did you receive any type of special training
24 to do that, other than what you had learned in your
VI1I A (11Voqz, cJ?oiztztztg and ogs.sociatzs., il nc.
aicayo, gairzois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018974
30
1 college courses in anatomy? Did you get any special
2 training, I guess, at IBT to do that type of work?
3
A
The special training at IBT involved the
4 methods of sacrificing the animals and removing the
5 fetuses. The anatomy stuff is training that I received
6 in college.
7
Q
Was there any formal training program at IBT?
8
A
No, there was not.
9
Q
So you would just be watching some of the
10 other workers and see how they did it, and then you
11 would just go ahead and follow what they did?
12
A
That is correct.
13
Q
What department did you first hire in at IBT?
14
A
The rat toxicity department.
15
Q
Before we go into any of your other duties
16 and how they changed, perhaps it would be beneficial
17 for me if you could explain what the different
18 departments were at IBT.
19
A
The company was divided into two major
20 divisions: Toxicology division, environmental science
21 division. I am not familiar with all the different
22
departments in the environmental science division.
23
Q
You never worked in that division, then?
24
A
No. Toxicology division had various groups
clivo-Eq,,RoiEng.3,,4and oqiiociatEi, _enc.
674 90, grtinoi. (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018975
31
1 that conducted different types of studies on different
2 types of animals. It would be the rat toxicity that 3 did -- that had two groups, one that did subacute and 4 chronic toxicity studies and carcinogenic studies; and
5 the other part of the rat toxicity department conducted
6 reproduction studies, three-generation reproduction 7 studies and teratology studies in rats and the
8 occasional mice.
9
There was a toxicity department that ran
10 those studies in dogs.
11
There was a genetics department that did
12 various mutagenic studies; a metabolism department
13 that did metabolism studies.
14
There was an acute department that did all
15 of the acute studies, things like LD-50 studies, eye
16 and skin irritation studies.
17
There was a clinical department that did
18 human studies.
19
Then there were a number of service labs
20 that supported the studies that were done in these
21 groups. It would be the pathology and histology
22 group, the clinical chemistry lab. There was a
23
regular chemistry lab, and there were similar types of
24
setups with actual studies, and then support groups at
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MONSPCB0018976
32
1 the Decatur facility.
2
Q
Well, you don't have really personal
3 knowledge of the Decatur facility and what they did,
4 do you, since you didn't work there?
5
A
All their reports and stuff came through
6 Northbrook.
7
Q
But you never worked there, right?
8
A
No. I visited several times.
9
Q
Tell me what you meant, then.
10
A
The Decatur facility was set up to do animal
11 studies, had some support labs that did the same type
12 of thing that the labs did in Northbrook.
13
Q
I guess my confusion, then, is are you
14 saying that the Decatur facility had the same
15 departments over there that you had over in the
16 Northbrook facility?
17
A
As far as rodent studies, yes. They didn't
18 do any toxicity studies.
19
They had a pharmacology lab down there, and
20
they did aquatic studies down there. They moved the
21 fish toxicity group down there.
22
Northbrook had the fish toxicity for a
23
while, and then it moved to Decatur.
24
Neillsville did animal studies, and most of
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e4icago, grfinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018977
33
1 the -- like all of the pathology and stuff, the 2 tissues were sent to Northbrook to the pathology
3 department there.
4
Q
That pretty much covers all of the
5 departments, then?
6
A
Basically, yes.
7
Q
I'm really interested in the Northbrook
8 facility because that's the one that you worked at.
9 That's the one that you are more familiar with, right?
10
A
Slightly more familiar. I am familiar with
11 all of the facilities.
12
Q
Now, I have heard the term "animal
13 department" in previous depositions.
14
Is there a separate animal department, or
15 are you saying that there is one animal department
16 that covers, say, like the rat department and dog
17
department? Do you see my confusion there?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Can you explain to me what the animal
20 department is?
21
A
The animal department is a general term
22 referring to a specific animal department or a
23
specific department. Like the rat toxicity group
24
would be the animal department. They took care of the
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MONSPCB0018978
34
1 animal end. Then the service department would be like
2 the clinical chemistry lab or histology department, _
3 something like that. It's a general term.
4
Q
In other words, that would be wherever
5 animals would have been housed would be an animal
6 department?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
Did you have an occasion to work in any of
9 the other departments other than the rat toxicity
10 department?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
What other departments did you work in?
13
A
I worked in the necropsy lab.
14
Q
Would that be in the pathology and histology
15 department there?
16
A
Yes. Before I go on with it, I was always
17
in the rat department. There was occasions where I
18 would assist in other departments.
19
Q
You were assigned to the rat department,
20 then?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
And occasionally, a time or two, you would
23
come down to the, like you said, pathology department?
24
A
Yes.
WIEIA ( Wolfe, cRolznger.9 and c-Issociatzs, ,,Cnc.
aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018979
35
1
Q
What other departments did you occasionally
2 assist in?
3
A
The reproduction department. That would be
4 the three-generation studies, the other area of the
5 rat toxicity department. There were two sub -groups,
6 the reproduction area and the oral toxicity area, and
7 I would occasionally help in the reproduction area, in
8 the genetics department, the metabolism department,
9 chemistry lab.
10
Q
The regular chemistry lab, you mean?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
Anything else?
13
A
And at one point in time, I was the
14 coordinator for rabbit teratology studies, and I was
15 up to Neillsville occasionally to observe and
16
supervise teratology sacrifice up there.
17
Q
The department that you were assigned to
18
would have been the rat toxicity department, so you
19
pretty much stayed there the majority of your time.
20
Is that a fair statement?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
What I'd like for you to do -- it may be
23
difficult for you, but do the best that you can.
24
What period of time did you work in these
W AVIA
cRoi.Entztg and oqi.lociatzi, Uric.
C4icayo, griinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018980
36
1 other departments on your occasional basis, such as 2 the reproduction and teratology study departments?
3 What time periods did you work there?
4
A
All the way through, the whole time that I
5 was assigned to the rat department. I'd have to spend
6 sometimes a week here or a day here or a day and a half
7 there, and it occurred once every month or two months.
8
Q
Throughout the entire time that you worked
9 for IBT?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
And also with the genetics department, what
12 time period did you work in that department on an
13 occasional basis?
14
A
That would have been more like from '73
15 through '76.
16
Q
How often did you work in that department
17 during that time period?
18
A
Approximately eight times.
19
Q
The metabolic department, what time period
20 did you work there?
21
A
'73 through '76.
22
Q
And how often did you work there during that
23
time period?
24
A
Ten to twelve times during that time period.
"TIM ( WOE1E, GRO1E12SEIg and dissociatEi, _enc.
e4ica5o, grtinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018981
37
1
Q
And in the pathology department, what period
2 of time did you work there?
3
A
More in 1971, 1972.
4
Q
How often did you spend your time in that
5 department during that time period?
6
A
Probably about 20 times.
7
Q
And finally, the regular chemistry lab, what
8 time period did you work there?
9
A
1975.
10
Q
Just 1975?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
How often did you work then in the regular
13 chemistry lab?
14
A
I was involved working in there on and off
15 a number of times during about a two -month period.
16 I'd be in there two or three days a week, particularly
17 on the weekends.
18
Q
That would have been for just a two -month
19 period during 1975?
20
A
Approximately, yes.
21
Q
Do you remember when that two-month period
22
was?
23
A
I'd like to correct it. It wasn't '75. It
24
was '73, and it was in the summer, July, August, into
WI IA (17VoffE, cRolEngE143 and cAlocia.tzl, finc. Annois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018982
38
1 September, probably.
2
Q
We have started talking about your duties,
3 and we got sidetracked, to a certain extent, and you
4 have told me and detailed everything that you did when
5 you first started in January of 1971.
6
Did there come a time when those duties
7 changed?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
When was that?
10
A
April of 1971.
11
Q
How did those duties change?
12
A
I was put in charge of scheduling studies
13 with the service groups and helping train new
14 employees to see that new studies got set up.
15
Q
Did you do anything else?
16
A
I assisted in running the studies when need
17
be.
18
What do you mean by that?
19
A
Well, when the feeders didn't show up to
20 feed the animals, we'd have to feed the studies. When 21 nobody was there to water the animals, we'd have to
22 water the studies.
23
When equipment malfunctioned and the animals
24
had no water, we had to fix it. When we needed to
( Wofiz, cRolzngets and cAsoeiates, il nc.
e4icago, girinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018983
39
1 find cages to house new studies in, we'd go digging
2 through storerooms.
3
Q
How often did you assist, then, in running
4 the studies, as you put it in describing the things
5 that you said there?
6
A
Part of my time every day.
Q
But is it safe to say, then, that your
8 duties as to the day-to-day care and feeding of the
9 animals changed, then, in April of '71?
10
A
No, they did not. I still had to do that
11 and see that things were scheduled with the service
12 department and help train new employees.
13
Q
I guess what I'm saying is that -- I may
14 have misunderstood it, but in January, '71, you did
15
at least assist in some of the care and feeding and
16
watering of the animals on a day-to-day basis?
17
A
That was part of the supervising of the
18
studies.
19
Q
But I guess my point is you didn't
20
physically do that every day; there was someone that
21
you supervised who did that except on occasions, as
22
you mentioned?
23
A
Very frequently, the feeder would not show
24
up. He probably averaged being there about one-third
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aicayo, iltfinoi3 (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018984
40
1 to one-half of the time, and that left us to take care
2 of them the rest of the time.
3
Q
Were there particular people assigned to
4 just do feeding? Were there particular people assigned
5 to assist to do other things, or were people assigned
6 to a certain group of animals to care for and do all
7
the watering and feeding?
8
A
There were people, singular or plural, that
9 were assigned to various things. There were caretakers
10
that were to water the animals where water bottles were
11 still in use. There was one person that was supposed
12
to feed the studies. There was one person that was
13
supposed to mix the diets, and then there was a person
14
assigned to the study to make sure that the study got
15
weighed when it was supposed to, that the animals had
16
food, water, no matter what type of watering system
17
that the animals had, and to see that the support
18
groups, when they said they were going to bleed the
19
study, collect blood samples on Tuesday, that the
20
animals were ready for them to collect blood samples
21 on Tuesday and that they showed up to do it.
22
Q
So then in connection with your supervisory
23
duties, then, you would fill in on an as-need basis
24
and make sure that the job got done?
(WOifE, GROlEt2tET.43 and c:41.1ociatEi, iln.c. aieayo, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018985
41
1
A
Yes.
2
Q
Did you do anything else after April, 1971,
3
after your duties changed, other than scheduling the
4
studies with the support groups, help train new
5
employees and assist in running studies?
6
A
I was involved in free -hand sectioning rat
7 fetuses to examine them for internal developmental
8
defects.
9
Q
Was that in connection with any particular
10
department, the pathology department or --
11
A
The rat department, the reproduction half of
12
the group.
13
Q
What else did you do, then?
14
A
That kept me pretty busy while I was doing
15
that.
16
Q
I just want to make sure that I understood
17
how your duties changed, then.
18
You can't think of anything else as to the
19
way your duties changed? This is what you were doing
20 in April of '71, then?
21
A
That is correct.
22
Q
You said that you scheduled studies with
23
the service groups.
24
What does that mean?
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MONSPCB0018986
42
A
Filling out the protocol for the service
2 groups, specifying the studies for that group that the
3
department -- that the study protocol required.
4
If I am confusing you --
5
Q
Please explain it to me. There is a study
6
protocol, and then there is a -- what kind of study --
7
A
There was a study protocol that the animal
8
department gets that tells them that -- generally, the
9
animal department gets that tells them what they're
10
supposed to do during the study.
11
Then each of the service labs had a -- the
12
clinical chemistry and the pathology department had
13
protocols that we would fill out indicating what
14
studies they were supposed to do in support of the
15
study that we were running in the animal department.
16
Q
In other words, when to do the particular
17
work?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
As mandated by the study protocol?
20
A
Yes, and what that specific work was
21
supposed to be.
22
Q
You were the person in charge, then, of
23
filling out these protocols?
24
A
Occasionally, I was in charge of filling
(11i/offE, cRolErzgetg and cAlociatE6. , gne.
aicago, griinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018987
43
1 them out. Occasionally, the technician running the 2 study would fill them out, and it was my job to see
3
that they got scheduled with the service department SO
4 that the work would be scheduled to be done.
5
Q
You may not have been the person to actually
6 have filled out the service protocols, but you were
7
the person to ensure that it was done, though?
8
A
That the protocols were --
9
Q
Right.
10
A
-- filled out, yes.
11
Q
So that you could have proper scheduling?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
You said that you also helped train new
14 employees.
15
What type of training did you give them?
16
A
On-the-job training, showing them how to
17
handle the animals, how to set up new studies, how to
18
weigh the animals, collect the data, what to make sure
19
was functioning and operable in the equipment, what to
20
look for to make sure the animals were fed.
21
I think that's probably the majority of it.
22
Q
So you taught them, then, how to care for
23
the animals, to water and feed them?
24
A
When necessary, yes.
VITA rivoq-E, cRosEngE7.5 an
gainois (312) 782-8087
gna.
MONSPCB0018988
44
1
Q
Were you also charged with the responsibility
2 for ensuring that they carried out their jobs, then, in
3 the rat department in the care and feeding and watering
4 of the animals?
5
A
Not really.
6
Q
Not at that point in time?
7
A
No.
8
Q
Not in April?
9
A
No.
10
Q
Did your duties subsequently change, then,
11 after April of 1971?
12
A
Yes, they did.
13
Q
When did they change?
14
A
September of '71. It would have been very
15 late August, early September.
16
Q
How did they change?
17
A
I was no longer responsible for scheduling
18
studies and training employees, and I was promoted to
19
report writer to assist Jim Plank and Paul Wright in
20
preparing reports on studies done in the department.
21
Q
In the rat department?
22
A
That is correct.
23
Q
You didn't write any reports for any other
24
departments, did you?
IVRIA (1/VolfE, ../?oi.EngEts and ogliociatEl, gna.
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MONSPCB0018989
45
1
A
Eventually, yes, I did.
2
Q
We will get into that, then, later.
3
At least in September of 1971, you were, I
4
believe you said, promoted to report writing of rat
5
studies?
6
A
My title stayed the same, assistant
7
toxicologist stayed the same all the way through 1976.
8
My duties changed drastically all the time during that
9
time period.
10
Q
Can you explain to me, then, a little bit
11
about what you do when you write a report? What do
12
you mean, I guess is what I'm saying.
13
A
From my standpoint, it's a couple of
14
questions that you have asked.
15
Q
Break it down.
16
A
There is something -- there's things that
17
you should do when you write a report, and there's
18
things that you are doing when you first start and
19
when you are learning what to do.
20
My job, when I got promoted to the report
21 writing, would be to take the raw data that the
22
animal department had collected and collate that into
23
summary tables in a report.
24
There were standard blank reports that I was
%Wilk ( 1,11/offE, cJ?(J1ErlgETS and cAlociatzi., _enc.
ilfrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018990
46
1 supplied by Paul Wright and Jim Plank, and we would
2 take those -- I would take those tables and make sure
3 all the body weight data was meaned-up that we had, and
4
put
in those tables, and food consumption data and
5 the blood data and the organ weight and ratio data.
6
When the pathology data would come back from
7
the pathologist, I would put the pathologist's findings
8 into summary form and tables.
9
Q
Did you have a form by which you would write
10 your reports?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
It was a form provided to you?
13
A
Yes. This form occasionally would vary.
14 There were some special studies that required
15
additional work that wasn't standard and would have to
16
add additional tables for those particular sections
17
and data.
18
Q
So you were given, then, the raw data
19
itself; you weren't given summaries of raw data, then,
20
in connection with writing your report?
21
A
At that time, that's correct. I was given
22 -the study. file.
23
Q
You said "study file."
24
What is a study file?
WRIA (11VoffE, cRolEngEt9 and
, Lina.
aicago, uffinoi (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018991
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1
A
The study file is the file that the animal
2
department technician maintained with the body weight
3
data, food consumption data, blood and urine analyses
4
data, organ weight and ratio data and the pathologist's
5 findings.
6
Q
So everything that you would need to write
7
that report would have been in the study file itself?
8
A
Should have been in the study file. It was
9
not always there.
10
Q
Where was this study file kept?
11
A
In the animal department.
12
Q
13
file?
How would all of this data reach the study
14
From the different groups. Things like the
15
blood and urine analyses and the pathologist's findings
16
and conclusions and organ weights and ratios would
17
have gone through inter-office mail from the service
18
departments generating it.
19
The body weights and food consumption and
20
mortality data would have been maintained in the file
21 by the technician conducting the study.
22
Q
Who is in charge, then, of ensuring that the
23
data went to the study file? Was it the individual
24
technician or person in charge?
laVAPIA ( WoffE, cRoszntvtg and cAlociatzs, gnc.
aicayo, ginnois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018992
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48
1
A
I'm not sure I heard the first part of your
2 question right.
3
Q
Who was in charge of ensuring that the rat
4
data that you have described earlier would go to the
5 study file? Was it the individual technician or
6 whoever may have worked on compiling that data?
7
A
Ultimately, the responsibility fell on the
8
group leader, which would be Mr. Plank, to see that
9
the people were doing -- his employees were doing the
10
work.
11
Q
I guess what I'm saying is: Was there a
12
procedure in place whereby all of the technicians
13
would forward the raw data to the study file?
14
A
No. The technicians maintained, or were
15
supposed to maintain files on the studies that they
16
were responsible for.
17
Q
When would they forward, then, the raw data
18
to the study file?
19
A
When they happened to collect it or when
20
they happened to get data in the inter-office file.
21
The service labs
clinical chemistry lab generally
22
kept their original raw data in their own laboratory,
23
and they would send a copy of that to the animal
24
department so that there was a source for obtaining
VIIA ( WorfE, c_1?oszngct5 and cAlociziLlp _enc.
C4icar, grrinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018993
49
1 the data if it got lost in the inter-office mail
2
system or on somebody's desk.
3
The technician was supposed to store the
4
body weight and food consumption data and mortality
5
data that he collected in the file and maintain it.
6
There were no set procedures for seeing that
7
this was done.
8
Q
Who maintained the study file? Would it
9 have been the group leader?
10
A
The technician assigned to the study.
11
Q
So there was one technician that was
12 assigned to the complete study, then; is that what
13
you are saying?
14
A
Generally, yes.
15
Q
He would be the person charged with the
16 responsibility, then, of ensuring that all of the
17
data got into the study file?
18
A
I don't believe he was really charged with
19
the task of ensuring that all of it got in the study
20 file. He was charged with the task of making sure
21 whatever data they happened to have got there, but
22
not all of it showed up in the study files.
23
Q
Perhaps it might be beneficial for my
24
understanding if you can tell me how generally studies
C WOrfE, GRO1E12gE7.43 and c...//lsociatEl, _enc.
aicago, il ffinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018994
50
were organized, then, from the top down to the bottom.
2
I believe you said there was like a group
3 leader involved, and there was like a technician in
4 charge of the whole study, and then even under him
5 there were technicians who did the actual care of the
6
animals.
7
Is that a fair summary?
8
A
The studies weren't organized that way. The
9 department was organized that way.
10
Q
How were the studies organized?
11
A
There generally was either a protocol, a
12
specific protocol for the study, or a general protocol
13 for the type of study being conducted.
14
Occasionally, there were letters between
15
IBT and the client companies specifying minimum
16
requirements as far as, say, number of animals and
17
then do the standard company protocol on the study.
18
The animal department would set the study
19
up, house the animals and would supply the care for
20
them and schedule with the service groups the studies
21
that either the specific protocol or the standard
22
protocol required to be done during that type of
23
study.
24
Then the department would issue a report
( WorfE cRolEnEtg and ogslociatEs Linc.
aicago, iltrinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018995
51
1 that would then be sent to upper management for
, 2 approval before it was sent to the client.
3
Occasionally, clients required rough drafts
4
to be sent to them before a final report was issued.
5
Q
Was it unusual, then, for a client to
6 request a rough draft, or was that pretty much common?
7
A
It was not common. There were only two
8
clients that ever requested rough drafts before final
9
drafts were issued.
10
Q
Tell me how the rat department, then, was
11 organized back in -- let's take back in January of '71.
12
A
Okay. The rat department had a group leader
13
in charge of that, and then there was a junior group
14
leader in charge of the -- at the time the genetic
15
studies were done in the rat department, and there was
16
a junior group leader in charge of that area.
17
Then there were technicians, whether they
18
were technicians or assistant toxicologists or
19
whatever, that conducted the studies and reported to
20
the group leader.
21
Q
This technician that you referred to
22
earlier about maintaining the study file or the
23
person that was to ensure that all the data reached
24
the study file, would that have been this junior group
VI!IA (M[1E, cRolEngvE9 and c=2(blociaLl, _enc.
e4iayo, grtinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018996
52
1 leader that you referred to?
2
A
No, it would have been the assistant
3 toxicologist or technician that was assigned to the
4 study. In the case of the genetics studies, the
5 junior group leader was the only employee in that 6 department, and he would have been charged with
7 keeping the study files.
8
Q
I guess
9
A
For those studies.
10
Q
I guess my confusion is, then, that you have
1.1 technicians who are charged with the day-to-day care
12 of the animals, and you said earlier, I believe, that
13
there were some that would water, another one assigned
14
to feed all the studies in the rat department there.
15
Then is there, in addition to these separate
16
technicians who do specific duties, are you saying
17
that there is then one technician above that that
18
oversees all of the work that is done on the study?
19
A
The technician that was in charge of
20
feeding the animals reported to the group leader. The
21
animal caretakers had a head animal caretaker, but
22
they all reported to the group leader. The technician
23
in charge of the study, whether he was an assistant
24
toxicologist or an associate or just a technician with
(i/VoffE, cRolErztvr.9 and c_AsociatEs, _One. aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018997
53
1 no degree, would report to the group leader.
2
Q
That would be the person that would be
3 responsible for getting the data into the study file?
4
A
That was part of his duties, yes.
5
Q
In addition, he would do some of the care of
6 the animals, too, is that correct?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
Now, I want to make sure that I have got
9 everything that should be in these study files, and
10
you add what you think needs to be added.
11
You are going to have the body weight data.
12 You are going to have the blood and urine data and
13
have the feeding data.
14
A
Food consumption.
15
Q
Let's use your terms.
16
17
data.
You are going to have the organ weight ratio
18
A
Organ weight data would be sufficient. The
19
ratios are all calculated.
20
Q
And you are going to have the pathologist
21 department's findings.
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
Then you are going to have the mortality
24
rate data, too.
%% VIVA
(1 1VOf1E, GROlEngE19 and c:AsociatEs, ilnc. aicago, gffinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018998
54
A
Yes.
2
Q
Anything else?
3
A
I think that covers it all.
4
Q
So I am trying to get now the procedure,
5 then, that you would employ when you would write a
6 report.
7
First thing you would do is to get the study
8 file, or why don't you tell me what you would do
9 instead of me trying to guess.
10
A
At what point in time? September, '71?
1'1
Q
September of '71.
12
A
Or what I would do now with the knowledge
13
that I have now?
14
Q
I am talking about what happened back at
15
IBT when you worked for them, and let's go ahead and
16
start in September of '71 since that's when you first
17
became a report writer.
18
A
In September of '71, I would get the animal
19
department file, and I would get a blank report form.
20
Q
Let me stop you.
21
Animal department file, that's the study
22
file?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
Go ahead.
WIMA
( 11/4
cRoi tzterg and
sociaEEs, gne.
aicago, gitinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0018999
55
1
A
And a blank report form. If the body weight
2
data- in there wasn't meaned-up, I would mean it up and
3
put what data there was in the file into the report.
4
The studies that I started working on, a lot
5
of the data was missing, and it was either never
6
collected or the data was lost. A good portion of the
7
body weight data was not in the study file and
8
nowhere to be found.
9
Q
I'm just right now trying to find out just
10
your procedures right now that you would employ for
11 writing reports. Let's just stick to that.
12
First thing you would do is get the study
13 file and you would get a blank report form. If the
14 body weight data wasn't meaned-up, then you would do
15
that.
16
What else would you do?
17
A
The same with what food consumption data
18 was available, what mortality data was available,
19 blood and urine analyses findings, and mean it up, put
20 it in the blank tables, send the organ weights to the
21 computer room for them to calculate the organ-to-body
22 weight ratios and organ-to-brain weight ratios, and
23 they would conduct statistical analyses on weights and
24 ratios, and I would put those in table form in the
vtVIMA rtVoirE, _RolEntEts and (-4110etatzi., inc.
aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019000
56
1 report.
2
If the pathologist's findings were available,
3 I would put those in a summary table, and then I would
4 take the report to Jim Plank and Paul Wright, and they
5 would write the conclusions.
6
Q
So is it fair to say, then, that you would
7 write all of the reports with the exception of the
8 conclusions?
9
A
It varied from report to report.
10 Occasionally there were rush reports where they would
11 have me do the body weight tables, food consumption
12 tables, and they would do other sections of the report
13 and the conclusion. If there were problems with the
14
data that was existing, I would take it to Paul Wright
15 or Jim Plank, and they would supply the missing data.
16
Q
Did this procedure that you have just
17
described ever change during the time that you were
18
the report writer?
19
A
As time progressed and I learned more about
20 the data and what normal findings were, I would
21 occasionally write the summaries and the conclusions,
22
and then those would go to my supervisor for their
23
examination and approval or change.
24
Q
When did you start doing that?
WI1A ( WorfE, c_RoszngEl.5 and c....thlociatEi,
aicar, girinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019001
57
1
A
1972 through early '73.
2
Q
How long were you a report writer?
3
A
Among many of my duties after that, I
4
continued to write reports of various types through
5 the rest of my time there.
6
Q
So other than this additional change in
7
procedure in writing reports, being that you would
8
sometimes write the summaries and conclusions, did
9
that procedure for writing reports change after that?
10
MR. POHL: Procedure of the way in which the
11 reports were written?
12
MR. JONES: Right.
13 BY THE WITNESS:
14
A
No.
15
BY MR. JONES:
16
Q
Have you described all your duties, then, as
17
a report writer in September of '71?
18
A
I believe so.
19
Q
Did your duties ever change thereafter?
20
A
In addition to writing reports, I got into
21
writing reports from different areas, writing
22
proposals for requests for bids on government studies.
23
I conducted internal research studies for
24
Dr. Calandra.
%VIVA
( WoffE, cRosEntEag and c--gi.sociatzs, gne. alcayo, gffinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019002
58
1
I was involved with coordinating all the
2 rabbit teratology studies and writing the reports for
3 those studies.
4
I would have to occasionally answer client
5 questions through correspondence.
6
Q
Anything else?
7
A
I am just thinking a second.
8
For a while, I was in charge of being the
9 liaison between the rat toxicity group and the
10 computer group that was preparing computer programs to
11 assist in collecting the rat data in the studies we
12 were conducting
13
Then, in addition to writing reports and
14 stuff, I was in charge of auditing. I was placed in
15 charge of two different audit groups at two different
16 periods of time, auditing old studies that we had
17 conducted.
18
Q
Anything else?
19
A
Not while I was report writer.
20
Q
I understand that you were report writer
21 through the entire time that you worked at IBT.
22
Did I misunderstand it?
23
A
There were reports -- you possibly did.
24 There were reports that I had to write in relation to
WP.A
( /VorfE, cRoiEntezg and cAlociatEl, gnc.
aicago, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019003
59
1 my work all the way through the rest of the time I was
2 employed there.
3
Q
By "reports," what I mean are reports for
4 studies.
5
A
Okay. That was through April of 1977.
6
Q
In addition, then, to being a report writer
7 from September of '71 through the end of April of 1977,
8 you had additional duties which you just previously
9 described.
10
A
Yes.
Q
Can you tell me when you began writing
12 proposals for bids for government studies?
13
A
1974, '75.
14
Q
When did you start doing internal research
15 studies for Dr. Calandra?
16
A
1973.
17
Q
When did you start doing or coordinating
18 rabbit teratology studies and writing those reports?
19
A
1972.
20
Q
When did you start corresponding with
21 clients to answer questions through correspondence?
22
A
1973. There was one other.
23
Q
Go ahead.
24
A
In 1972, I was responsible for writing the
IWIMA
'Wolfe, cRosztzgEts and c=43.6.ociatzl, _One.
Met:To, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019004
60
1 chicken neurotoxicity reports, also.
2
Q
But again, that's not a duty that was in
3 addition to your report writing; you were doing that in
4 any event?
5
A
It's like the rabbit teratology study. I
6 coordinated seeing that the reports for that area were
7 gotten out, and they just varied. There were many
8 different toxicity groups that I'd occasionally do
9 reports for.
10
Q
As liaison between the rat toxicity group
1.1 and the computer group, when did you do that?
12
A
1972.
13
Q
Have we covered, then, all of the additional
14 duties to being a report writer since September of '71?
15
A
The audit groups that I supervised.
16
Q
When did you supervise these two different
17 audit groups?
18
A
One of them was in the Spring of 1976, and
19 the second one was in the Fall of '76 through late
20 Winter of '77.
21
Q
I believe you said that your duties then
22 changed thereafter until September of 1977.
23
How did your duties change at that point?
24
A
In April of 1977, my duties changed, and I
%VI!Ii
( 14/OfiE, GROlErIgET.5 and c:41lociatEl, grIc.
aicap, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019005
61
1 was promoted to quality assurance specialist and worked
2 in the quality assurance department that had been set
3 up at the company.
4
Q
What did you do, then, as the quality
5 assurance specialist, specifically?
6
A
Audited studies and reports. At that
7 particular time, we were in the process of complying
8 with proposed federal regulations on good laboratory
9 practices, and we were setting up quality control
10 procedures to see that studies were properly run
1.1 during the course of the study and that -- and
12 procedures to ensure that the final reports accurately
13 reflected what was done during the study.
14
Q
The good laboratory practices regulations
15 that you referred to, did that become law, then, in
16 1977?
17
A
I believe it became law at a later date.
18
Q
But you knew what the regulations were and
19 were beginning to set up procedures, then, at that
20 point?
21
A
That is correct. There were proposed
22 regulations.
23
Q
You said you audited studies and reports.
24
Were those internal studies and reports,
( Wofiz, cRoszngetg and cibloctatzi,
aicago, gainois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019006
62
1 that is, those that were performed by IBT, or did you
2 audit studies from other laboratories also?
3
A
We audited studies that were performed by
4
IBT.
5
Q
Did your duties thereafter change in April
6 of 1977?
7
A
In June of 1977, I was no longer employed by
8 the company.
9
Q
Why did you leave the company?
10
A
I resigned under duress.
11
Q
What do you mean "under duress"?
12
A
They requested my resignation.
13
Q
Why did they request your resignation?
14
A
They would not answer that question when I
15 asked it of them.
16
Q
So you don't know, then, why they requested
17 your resignation?
18
A
No.
19
Q
Do you remember the exact date that you
20 terminated your relationship with IBT?
21
A
I believe it was June 15, 1977.
22
Q
Can you describe for me how this resignation
23 under duress came about?
24
A
I was called to the personnel director's
( i/VoifE, &?os.EngET9 and cAisociatEs. , _enc.
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MONSPCB0019007
63
1 office. My immediate supervisor at that particular
2 time was present in his office, and the personnel
3 director requested my resignation.
4
Q
Was that on June 15?
5
A
Yes, it was.
6
Q
When you asked them why they requested your
7 resignation, what did they say to you?
8
A
They refused to answer the question. They
9 said that they cannot reveal why.
10
Q
What did you do after that?
11
A
They gave me 15 minutes to get off the
12 premises and told me that I could come back after
13 5:00 o'clock and clear my desk out.
14
Q
Did you come back and clear out your desk?
15
A
Yes, I did.
16
Q
Would that have been at 5:30?
17
A
I think the appointment was 5:00 or 5:30.
18 Quitting time was 5:00 o'clock.
19
Q
Did you then clean out your desk?
20
A
Yes, I did.
21
Q
What did you take?
22
A
I took personal belongings that were in the
23 desk, and I took documents that I had in my file 24 cabinets, rough drafts of reports, some reprints of
10WAVAli ro/4, cRolEngE7.9 and c_ig14.ociatEl,gne.
L74icayo, girinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019008
64
journal articles that I had collected over the years
2
Q
Did you take anything else?
3
A
At the present time, I don't remember.
4
Q
You said you took documents from your file
5 cabinet.
6
What documents are you referring to?
7
A
I took my memo file that included copies of
8 inter-office memos and correspondence that had been
9 sent to me through the operation of -- the daily
10 operation of the company to respond on, copies of
11 memos that I had written while I was there.
12
Q
Were those company documents?
13
A
Yes. There would have been some Xerox copies
14 of some final reports.
15
Q
What I'm talking about right now are
16 documents in the file cabinet.
17
Would there have been Xerox copies of final
18 reports?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
Anything else that would have been in the
21 file cabinet?
22
A
Rough drafts of reports_that I had worked
23 on.
24
Q
Anything else in the file cabinet that you
tg ( 171/OfiE GRO lEntz nd clbsociatEl, ilne.
6748:cayo, gfiinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019009
65
1 took?
2
A
The reprints of journal articles. There
3 might have been several journals.
4
Q
Have we pretty much, then, covered all the
5 categories of the things you took?
6
A
Essentially, I believe so.
7
Q
How many boxes did it take to take all of
8 these documents back with you?
9
A
I don't know how many boxes the documents
10 comprised. I took out approximately five boxes that
11 would have been maybe 16 by 18, about the size of a
12 box that a case of liquor would come in.
13
Q
And I'm not really interested in your
14 personal belongings, but what I'm interested in are
15 the company documents that you took with you.
16
That would have been how many boxes?
17
A
Approximately three.
18
Q
Did any of those boxes and documents that
19 you took from your file cabinet contain any writings
20 concerning Aroclor studies?
21
A
At the present time, I can't recall without
22 going through all of them.
23
Q
Are you saying that you don't remember if
24 there were any in there?
VkIrt ah
(17VoffE, &i'olErzte.r.g and cAlociatEl, _enc. ilffirzoi (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019010
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1
A
At the present time, I don't recall whether
2 there were. There may have been.
3
Q
What you would have to do is go look at the
4 boxes themselves?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Do you have those boxes somewhere?
7
A
The United States Attorney has them.
8
Q
Did you make any copies of what you gave to
9 the U.S. Attorney?
10
A
No.
11
Q
Do you have any documents whatsoever from
12 IBT in your possession currently?
13
A
Yes, I do.
14
Q
Is that what you have got in front of you
15 there?
16
A
Yes, it is.
17
Q
Could I see that, then?
18
A
Certainly.
19
(WHEREUPON, the documents were tendered
20
to counsel.)
21 BY MR. JONES:
22
Q
Are those documents that you just tendered
23 to me the only documents that you have regarding your
24 IBT employment?
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1
A
That is all that I have been able to locate
2 at this time.
3
Q
Do you believe that there is anything else?
4
A
I don't believe so, but there might be. I
5 have boxes of stuff from moving several times since my
6 employment there, and I believe that's --
7
Q
Could I get you to make a search? I know it
8 sounds --
9
A
I have been working on it. That's all I
10 found so far.
11
Q
Would you promise to give me whatever you
12 may uncover?
13
A
Certainly.
14
Q
Could I maybe give you a call later on to
15 see where you stand on the status of locating other
16 documents?
17
A
Certainly.
18
Q
Where did these documents come from that you
19 gave me?
20
A
They were delivered to my attorney through
21 IBT's outside counsel during my involvement with the
22 305 hearing.
23
Q
Were these documents part of the documents
24 that came from the three boxes that you took?
( 14/O1TE, CROlErIgET.g and cAlociatEl,
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A
No, I turned those over to the U.S. Attorney
and have no copies of them.
Q
Is there any way to determine that you know
of that those three boxes that you took contained
Aroclor studies? By that, I mean they went to the U.S.
Government, but do you have access to those files now?
A
At the moment, none.
Q
So in other words --
A
No access.
Q
-- you couldn't look at them if you wanted
to? A Q
I don't believe so. There was an investigation by the government
of IBT, is that correct?
A
That is correct.
Q
And in connection with that investigation,
you were asked to review those three boxes of
documents that you had taken from the offices of IBT
that belonged to them.
Do you remember that?
A
I wasn't asked to review them. I was asked
to turn over to them all of the documents that I had.
Q
Did you ever review any of those documents
VivIMA
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1 in preparation for your testimony at the IBT trial?
2
A
Yes, I did.
3
Q
At that time that you reviewed those three
4 boxes of documents, did you remember whether any
5 Aroclor studies were contained in those boxes?
6
A
I'm not sure I understood your question.
7
Q
It may have been confusing.
8
Do you remember, at the time that you
9 reviewed those three boxes in preparation for your
10 testimony at the IBT trial, did you remember seeing
11 any Aroclor studies?
12
A
I did not review any of those boxes. Some
13 of the documents from them, I did see. There were
14 Aroclor documents that I examined before and during
15 the trial.
16
Q
I understand that, but I am trying to pin
17
down whether there was any Aroclor documents in the
18 three boxes that you took from the offices of IBT.
19
A
I can't answer that.
20
Q
You just don't know?
21
A
At the present time, without reviewing them,
22 I couldn't -- without reviewing the three boxes, I
23
couldn't tell you whether there were or not.
24
Q
Would there have been any reason -- why did
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1 you take the documents?
2
A
To cover my tail. They contained rough
3 drafts with people's handwriting for things that had
4 been falsified, that other people had falsified.
5
Q
You said that you were keeping these
6
documents, and you took them with you because you were
7
trying to "cover your tail," I believe are the words
8
that you said?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
Had you been keeping a file for a good
11
period of time to do that?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
How long was it that you started keeping
14
this file to cover your tail?
15
A
From about October, 1971.
16
Q
Do you remember if there was ever any
17
reason that you could think of that you would have
18
any kind of documents in that file cabinet concerning
19
Aroclor studies that you would want to keep to
20
protect your tail?
21
A
There were things that were falsified in the
22
Aroclor studies, and I worked on them, and my
23
signature appeared on a couple of the Aroclor reports.
24
And there may very well have been Aroclor documents in
W L"IA ( Woffz, cRoszrztvr.5 and c_gi.sociatzl, _One.
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1
those items.
2
Q
You just don't know for sure at this point?
3
A
That is correct.
4
Q
You said that there were falsifications on
5
Aroclor reports.
6
Is that what you said?
7
A
That is correct.
8
Q
Do you know that from your own personal
9
knowledge?
10
A
Yes, I do.
11
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had off the
12
record between the witness and
13
Mr. Pohl out of the hearing of other
14
counsel and the court reporter.)
15
BY MR. JONES:
16
Q
Did you have an opportunity to talk with
17
Mr. Pohl?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
What did he say?
20
A
He gave me the definition of personal
21
knowledge to include things that I have had an
22
opportunity to look at and read and see; that it's a
23
very broad classification.
24
Q
Do you know why he told you that?
RV?
(WoffE, cRolenbE.r.g and cAlociatEl, il na.
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1
A
No, I don't.
2
Q
When I use - the term "personal knowledge," I
3
want you to tell me things that you know personally,
4
things that you observed personally, not things that
5
were recorded by someone else in documents and things
6
of that nature, all right?
7
A
Certainly.
8
MR. POHL: I would suggest that that's an
9
incorrect -- I don't know what rule you are looking
10
to, but that wouldn't be the law school textbook,
11
generally-accepted definition of personal knowledge.
12
We can take the deposition any way you want,
13
but you want him to exclude and not give you testimony
14
in his answers about documents he's read, information
15
he's learned in the course of meetings or conferences,
16
information he derived because he was a participant
17
in a study. All those things are excluded from what
18
you just said?
19
MR. JONES: Unless otherwise stated, that is
20
correct. I'm not interested in hearsay things.
21
MR. POHL: Those aren't hearsay.
22
MR. JONES: What someone says --
23
MR. POHL: I didn't say that. If he's
24
participated in a meeting, for example, where these
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1 things were discussed, where documents were reviewed
2 or facts reviewed, that is not hearsay. Also, if he
3 reads a document, it is not necessarily hearsay.
4
MR. JONES: I think it is.
5
MR. POHL: We just need to know how you are
6 limiting your deposition so the jury, in case you read
7 any of it, is not because of the way he gives an
8 answer misled.
9 BY MR. JONES:
10
Q
What do you think personal knowledge means?
11
A
Anything that happens to fall into my realm
12 of observation or on-hand experience with it. If I
13 have seen documents, if I have examined reports.
14
Q
Does that include also what someone told you
15 even though you did not observe the fact that the
16 person told you about?
17
A
It is a form of personal knowledge, yes.
18
Q
Well, not as to the fact and how it
19 happened, though, is it?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
In all fairness, I'm going to let you define
22 personal knowledge in whatever way you want to, and
23 then we will examine the details later on.
24
I'm not trying to trick you in any way.
( 1/Voriz, ci?olErztvr.9 and c;4111.ociatzs, iltze.
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Mr. Pohl and I and Mr. Nielsen had a disagreement on
2 what personal knowledge is, and that's. something that
3 the court will resolve.
4
The only thing I'm interested in is what you
5 know and how you know it, okay?
6
MR. POHL: So you want a complete answer, then?
7 From now on, you want a complete answer to every
8 question based upon whatever knowledge he has from
9 whatever source he obtained it, is that correct?
10
MR. JONES: I want a full and complete answer,
11 and I trust he will give me full and complete answers.
12
MR. POHL: I am sure he will. I just want to
13 understand the ground rules.
14 BY MR. JONES:
15
Q
Let's leave your employment at IBT for a
16
while. Let's go back and pick up what you did after
17
you left IBT in June of 1977.
18
What is the next employment that you had?
19
'A
November, 1977.
20
Q
Who did you go to work for?
21
A
International Research & Development
22
Corporation.
23
Q
Is that known as IRDC?
24
A
That is correct.
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1
Q
2
time?
3
A
4
Q
What position did you hold with them at that
Management trainee. What were your duties as a management
5 trainee?
6
A
I never got that far as to get any duties.
7
Q
How long did you work for them?
8
A
For about 11 or 12 weeks.
9
Q
Why did you leave the employment of IRDC?
10
A
I was fired for open disagreement with my
11 immediate supervisor and sleeping on the job.
12
Q
What kind of disagreement did you have with
13 your supervisor?
14
A
It started from the week that I started with
15
them, and I received a notice from the FDA of a 305
16
hearing, and I informed my immediate supervisor of
17
this.
18
At that point in time, they stopped giving
19 me anything to do, stopped communicating with me and
20 gave me old Bio-Test or IBT protocols to read.
21
The only time that I really got anything to
22
do was days where we had heavy snowfalls and half the
23
employees wouldn't show up and they needed somebody to
24
help in preparing diets or other things.
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On the day that I was dismissed, I was called into my supervisor's boss's office, and he asked my supervisor if he had any complaints about me, and my immediate supervisor said that I came to work late every day; that I left early every day; that I never did anything; that I didn't ask for any work to do.
And I said that I was sorry, but I didn't
agree with that. When I said that, his boss goes, "Aha, open
disagreement with your immediate supervisor. We can tolerate your dozing off, but we can't stand that. You
are fired."
Q
Do you remember when you were terminated,
then?
A
January of 1978.
Q
You said that the only thing that they gave
you to do at the time you received the notice of the
305 hearing was that you reviewed old IBT protocols.
A
That's what they gave me after I received
that.
Q
That's what I meant.
Where did they get those?
A
The client companies took their business
from IBT, who was in trouble with the government, and
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1 went to other contract labs, and they had copies of
2 these protocols. 'They'd remove the Industrial Bio-Test
3 logo from the top corner of the protocols and send them
4 to somebody else to bid on and do.
5
Q
You said that you were also sleeping on the
6 job.
7
How did that come about?
8
A
The day that I was fired -- I had transferred
9 to an office up front to work on writing some
10 procedures that they wouldn't allow me to look at.
11 What can I say? That was what they wanted me to do.
12 They wanted me to write the procedures for things that 13 they were doing in the laboratories, and they wouldn't 14 let me see what they were doing in the laboratory to
15 write the procedures.
16
But it was very hot in the office, and after
17 lunch I dozed off, and my boss's boss said, "Sleeping?
18 Okay. I want to see you at 5:00 o'clock."
19
That's when they fired me.
20
About two weeks before that, my boss had
21 come into the office and said, "Several weeks ago it
looked like you were sleeping in here."
23
And I said, "Well, several weeks ago I
24 wasn't sleeping in here."
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1
And he said, "Well, I walked by the door,
2 and it looked like you were sleeping."
3
And I explained to him that I had a
4 convergence deficiency, and that when I was tired,
5 would have to cover my left eye to continue reading
6 stuff so that I wouldn't have double vision.
7
Q
What is a convergence deficiency?
8
A
My left eye wandered out. It would be like
9 the opposite of being crosseyed.
10
In my particular case, it was because there
11 was an eye muscle that had developed improperly, and
12 I'm sure that there could be other reasons for it.
13
Q
After you were fired, then, from IRDC in
14
January of '78, what was your next employment?
15
A
1981, I believe.
16
Q
Who did you go to work for in 1981?
17
A
My stepfather.
18
Q
Do you remember the month?
19
A
I think it was like August or September.
20
Q
How long did you work for your stepfather?
21
A
Until he retired.
22
Q
Which was when?
23
A
On and off. He fully retired last year.
24
He severely restricted the amount of work he was
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1 doing a year to a year and a half ago, and I would
2 occasionally help him. I went to work for myself, and
3 he would occasionally help me.
4
Q
What would you do for your stepfather?
5
A
At what point in time?
6
Q
Well, in August or September of 1981 when
7
you went to work for him.
8
A
I was a laborer for him.
9
Q
What was his business?
10
A
He was a general carpentry contractor.
11
Q
Was it a full-time job?
12
A
At that time, when there was work available,
13
it was full-time.
14
Q
How long did you work, then, in this
15
full-time capacity with your stepfather as a laborer?
16
A
Through 1983, when there was work available,
17
that's who I worked for.
18
Q
Were you always a laborer during that time?
19
A
No.
20
Q
What else did you do?
21
A
I was a carpenter.
22
Q
Anything else?
23
A
No.
24
Q
In 1983, did I understand that you became
"I
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MONSPCB0019024
80
80 1 self-employed at that point?
2
A
I did some of my own work. I assisted a
3 friend of mine that had his own business and did some
4 work for him, and I did occasionally work for my
5 stepfather.
6
During that period of time, things were
7
slow. There wasn't work all the time.
8
Q
But that was in the capacity of being
9
self-employed, though, at that point?
10
A
More or less, yes.
11
Q
But you are saying that the work was not
12 continuous?
13
A
No.
14
Q
Are you still self-employed?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
You are doing carpentry work?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
That's what you have been doing since 1973?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
You didn't have any employment, then, from
21
January of '78 until about August of 1981, is that
22
correct?
23
A
That is correct.
24
Q
What were you doing during that time? How
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MONSPCB0019025
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1 were you making a living?
A
I was looking for a job, and I was living on
3
left-over monies from my profit sharing from Bio-Test.
4
During that period, I was meeting with
5
investigators from the United States Attorney's
6
Department and from the Food and Drug Administration,
7
and there were daily witness fees and statutory
8
subsistence allowances that I received.
9
Q
Were you making a living any other way
10
other than the left-over money from your profit
11 sharing plan and the money that the government was
12
paying you?
13
A
In 1980, I worked on the census.
14
Q
With the Census Bureau?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
What were you doing?
17
A
Collecting census information from people,
18
doing follow-up exams to straighten out errors and
19
mistakes on the census forms that people had sent in.
20
Q
Did you do anything else other than the
21
Census Bureau and working for the government in their
22
investigation of IBT?
23
A
No.
24
Q
What period of time did the government pay
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MONSPCB0019026
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you to work with them in connection with the
investigation of IBT?
A
They paid me for the days that I spent with
them, and sometimes there would be a couple weeks in a
TOW. Sometimes there would be a several-month --
Q
What time period are we talking about?
A
1979 through 1983, through early '83 up
until the trial started.
Q
When did the trial start?
A
April of 1983.
Q
How much money did the United States
Attorney and the FDA pay you in preparing the case
against IBT?
A
The witness fees and the subsistence
allowances that I received during that period of time
amounted to approximately $10,000.
Q
Did you receive any money at all for
testifying at the criminal trial?
A
The statutory witness fee.
Q
How much did you receive for that testimony?
A
I do not remember at the present time what
the statutory witness fee was then.
Q
Can you give me an approximate sum so I can
get some kind of idea?
'WAWA
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1
A
I would guess that it was somewhere around
2 I don't remember whether it was fifteen or thirty
3 dollars a day.
4
Q
Fifteen to thirty dollars a day?
5
A
Yes. I don't remember which it was.
6
Q
How long did you testify at the trial?
7
A
Ten days.
8
Q
I think we have covered your employment
9 history, haven't we?
10
A
I think so.
11
Q
What I'd like to do is shift and go back to
12 IBT for a while, if I may.
13
A
Okay.
14
Q
Can you describe what the business of IBT
15 was when you joined them back in 1971?
16
A
IBT was a contract toxicology laboratory
17
that was performing safety studies for private clients
18
and government agencies that other government agencies
19
required for approval of these products for human
20
exposure, and they were conducting environmental
21
studies -- mostly environmental impact studies
22
involved with nuclear power plants.
23
Q
The government agencies that you are
24
referring to, was that the United States Government,
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1 or were there other foreign governments also?
2
A
There were foreign governments that these
3 reports would be supplied to: Canada, Sweden, France
4
The World Health Organization used these
5 studies in their guidelines for third-world nations,
6 which would be Africa.
7
Q
Back in January of 1971 when you went to
8 work for IBT, about how many employees did it have?
9
A
I have no idea, in total, of how many were
10 there when I started.
11
Q
Can you say how many were at the Northbrook
12 facility?
13
A
In 1971, it would only be a guess.
14
Q
I understand it would be a guess. Just kind
15
of give me some kind of estimate, your best guess.
16
A
100, 200 employees.
17
Q
Did that ever change over time?
18
A
It increased with time, yes.
19
Q
How about when you left the employment of
20
IBT? How many employees were employed there?
21
A
I don't know the exact number.
22
Q
How about in the Northbrook facility?
23
A
I just don't have any idea.
24
Q
Did it decrease or increase?
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1
A
It increased.
2
Q
You said that there were various private
3 companies that IBT did work for.
4
Can you tell me who some of these companies
5 were, the customers of IBT?
6
A
Monsanto Company, Ciba-Geigy Corporation,
7 Syntex Corporation, American Cyanimide, Chevron
8 Corporation, Shell Oil Corporation, Abbott
9 Laboratories, Gillette, Procter & Gamble, Baychem
10
International -- I don't know whether it s Minerals
11 or Mining -- IMC Corporation, Stouffer's, FMC,
12 Hercules, Exxon, DuPont.
13
At the moment, that's all that I can recall.
14 There were many, many clients.
15
Q
Do you know about how many clients there
16
were?
17
A
I don't know the exact number of clients,
18
no.
19
Q
20
A
21
Q
Would it have been in the hundreds? I would think that would be a good estimate. You have named quite an impressive group of
22
companies.
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
Fairly large companies, is that correct?
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1
A
Yes.
2
Was also a customer of IBT the United States
3 Government? I think you said earlier --
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Do you remember some of the agencies that
6
may have submitted studies for IBT to do?
7
A
The Atomic Energy Commission, the National
8 Institute on Drug Abuse, the Food and Drug
9 Administration, the United States Army and the
10 Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
11
Q
Can you think of anything else?
12
A
No.
13
Q
How about the EPA?
14
A
Not that I am aware of.
15
Q
At the time that you went to work for IBT
16 in 1971, what was the reputation of IBT in the
17 industry?
18
A
It was referred to, quote, as "the Cadillac
19 of the industry," unquote.
20
Q
That is certainly why some of these major
21 companies in the country, including the United States
22 Government, was interested in having their tests
23 performed at IBT?
24
MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question.
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1 BY THE WITNESS:
2
A
I don't know what their decision was.or why
3 they chose Bio-Test. 4 BY MR. JONES:
5
Q
Were you aware of the fact that several of
6 these companies, these private companies that you
7 have named earlier, were you aware that their reports
8 would be submitted to the United States Government?
9
A
When I started there, no.
10
Q
Did you subsequently learn that?
11
A
Yes, I did.
12
Q
When did you learn that?
13
A
Fall of 1971, I learned that some reports
14 might be submitted to the government, late fall.
15
Q
Do you know why these customers wanted to
16 have several of their products tested?
17
A
I'm not sure I understand your question.
18
Q
Was it a government requirement that several
19 of these companies test their products and have it
20 submitted to the government?
21
A
The government required the type of testing
that IBT did on new products that it was approving for
23 market for human exposure.
24
Q
These government agencies, like the Atomic
IIVIII
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1 Energy Commission and the National Institute on Drug
2 Abuse, FDA, HEW, U.S. Army, to name a few of the
3 government agencies that had studies with IBT, did
4 they rely on the results of IBT?
5
A
I have no idea what they did with the results
6 that they got.
7
Q
During the time that these government studies
8 were conducted at IBT, did they ever
anyone from the
9
government ever come to the offices of IBT?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Was that unusual? How often did they come
12
to the offices?
13
A
It varied by department and government
14
agency.
15
Q
Well, let's take the one that came the most.
16
Who would that have been?
17
A
U.S. Army.
18
Q
How often did they come to the offices of
19
IBT during the time that you worked there?
20
A
I would say approximately every three
21
months. More often if there were problems with their
22
studies. Less often if things were running smoothly.
23
Q
When you say "problems with their studies,"
24
what do you mean?
laVIEVA, ( WoiTE, c./?osEngvr. and cAsociatzs, iltze.
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1
A
Well, one of the studies that they were
2 conducting there had to be restarted.
3
Q
Why was that?
4
A
The animals in the study got -- received
5 kidney damage from the chloroform that the employees
6 used in chasing down loose animals in the laboratory,
7 and the study had to be restarted.
8
Q
When was this study?
9
A
1971, '72.
10
Q
Did these government agencies pretty much
11 have studies ongoing with IBT from the time that you
12 started until the time that you left?
13
A
There was one study for a government agency
14 that I was aware of when I started and at least
15 through about 1976. I'm not -- in 1976, I wasn't --
16 I was auditing studies, and I wasn't aware of what new
17 studies were starting and which ones finished.
18
Q
At least up until 1976, the government had
19 studies with IBT?
20
A
Some kind of study, yes, generally.
21
Q
Do you know what the purpose of the
22
government coming to the study was? Was it to audit
23
the study? Was it to check up on them?
24
A
I have no idea what the purpose was. I
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1 wasn't involved with meeting with them.
2
Q
But you did know that if there was a problem,
3 they would come and review whatever problem there was?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Do you remember if these visits were
6 scheduled visits or impromptu or what?
7
A
I have no idea.
8
Q
When they came to the offices of IBT, where
9 would they go?
10
A
To the offices of whoever they were meeting
11 with when they were there.
12
Would they go into the animal department
13 lab, look at animals?
14
A
I remember them looking at the animal rooms
15 one time, yes.
16
Q
When would that time have been?
17
A
1972.
18
Q
Were there other occasions when they would
19 come into the animal room?
20
A
Not that I am aware of.
21
Q
You only --
22
A
I have no knowledge_ I observed them in the
23 animal rooms on one occasion.
24
Q
So you would see them in the animal rooms,
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1 then, on occasion?
2
A
Yes, one time.
3
Q
In 1972?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Now, is it safe to assume that the government
6 then relied on the results of the tests of IBT?
7
MR. POHL: Is that the end of the question?
8
MR. JONES: That's the end.
9
MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question as
10 calling for speculation as to the mental processes of
11 some government employee.
12 BY MR. JONES:
13
Q
Did any governmental employee tell you why
14 they were conducting the tests they were conducting?
15
A
No.
16
Q
You don't know why they were conducting the
17
tests?
18
A
No government agency or government employee
19 told me why they were conducting it, other than my
20 knowledge of what the general business at the
21 laboratory was.
22
Q
Do you think they would conduct a test and
23 pay for it and then not rely on it?
24
A
I have no idea what they would think.
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Q
Would you think that if you were to conduct
-- pay for a test and have it conducted at some testing
laboratory, would you rely on it or not?
MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question.
First, I don't understand it. Secondly, it calls for
speculation.
BY MR. JONES:
Q
Do you understand the question?
A
I'm not sure I do.
Q
Within your personal knowledge, do you know
what the reason or the purpose of the scope of the
governmental studies were?
A
I know what the purpose and the scope of
the studies was, yes.
Q
What was the purpose and scope of those
studies?
A
To ascertain the oral toxicity of particular
materials that they were testing.
Q
Those tests were performed and then later
given to the government, is that correct?
A
The studies were performed and a report of
the studies, in one case that I am aware of, was
delivered to the government agency. The other ones,
I don't know if they ever sent them a report or not.
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1
Q
That would have been valuable information,
2
that report, to the United States Government, would it
3
not?
4
A
I don't know what they would consider it as.
5
Q
What would you consider it as?
6
A
It was the report on the tests that we had
7
conducted.
8
Q
Would you consider that to be valuable
9
information?
10
A
It was the information summarizing the
11
particular study that was run.
12
Q
The study had value, though, did it not?
13
A
It could have.
14
MR. POHL: Let me object. I don't mind you
15
asking those questions. I'm confused as to this, and
16
I don't want the witness to be confused.
17
Do you mean it had value in terms of
18
somebody paid cash for it, or do you mean that based
19
upon everything he knows about IBT today, he thinks
20
it would have had some value back then?
21
BY MR. JONES:
22
Q
Do you know what value means? What's your
23
understanding of value?
24
A
My understanding of value is either
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1
something that is important or something that has some
2
dollar amount attached to it.
3
Q
Using that definition, do you think that the
4
tests that IBT performed for the government had value?
5
A
No, they had no value, the ones that I am
6
familiar with.
7
Q
Why is it they did not have any value?
8
A
Because the studies were not run properly.
9
There was falsified information in them.
10
Q
Did you tell that to the government?
1.1
A
I told that to my supervisors.
12
Q
We will get into that in a little bit about
13
those studies, then, but right now let's go into some
14
other areas.
15
Off the record.
16
(WHEREUPON, discussion was had off the
17
record.)
18
(WHEREUPON, the deposition was recessed
19
until 1:00 o'clock p.m., this date,
20
7/9/87.)
21
22
23
24
007.111 (Wo
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1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2
BEAUMONT DIVISION
3 CECIL SCOTT, et al.,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
-VS-
B -84-1103-CA
6 MONSANTO COMPANY,
7
Defendant.
8
9
July 9, 1987,
10
1:00 o'clock p.m.
11
12
The deposition of PHILIP S. SMITH resumed
13 pursuant to recess at 3405 Algonquin Road, Rolling
14 Meadows, Illinois.
15
16
17
18 19
20
21
22
23
24
%VL"IA 'WotfE, ci?osztzgEt3 and c.-41sociatEs, _anc.
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1 PRESENT:
2
GILPIN, POHL & BENNETT,
(1300 Post Oak Boulevard,
3
Houston, Texas 77056), by:
MR. MICHAEL A. POHL and
4
MR. ERIC D. NIELSEN,
5
appeared on behalf of the Plaintiffs;
6
WOODARD, HALL & PRIMM,
(4700 Texas Commerce Tower,
7
Houston, Texas 77002), by:
MR. ROBERT JONES,
8
-and-
9
SMITH, HELMS, MULLISS & MOORE,
10
(500 NCNB Building,
Greensboro, North Carolina 27420), by:
11
MR. TIMOTHY PECK,
12
appeared on behalf of the Defendant.
13
14
15
16 REPORTED BY: NANCY BRUNER PARKS, C.S.R.
17
18
19
20
21
-22
23
24
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1
PHILIP S. SMITH,
2 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly
3 sworn and having testified, was examined and testified
4 further as follows:
5
6 BY MR. JONES:
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
7
Q
Mr. Smith, I hope you enjoyed your lunch.
8 It's time for US to get on to the business of taking
9 the deposition. I have a few more questions I need to
10
ask you.
11
I'd like to take you back to the procedure
12 that you used in writing your reports.
13
Would you make a handwritten draft of your
14 reports and then submit it to the typing pool for
15
typing, or how did you go about doing that personally
16 on the reports that you prepared?
17
A
At what point in time?
18
Q
In September of 1971.
19
A
In September of 1971, I only prepared
20
certain parts of the rough draft, and the parts that
21
I prepared I entered in my handwriting raw data that
22
had been meaned into summary tables.
23
In many of the studies that I started
24
preparing reports on in September of '71, there was a
%VI!IA
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1 lot of data that was missing as far as body weight,
2 food consumption, mortality, and I would enter what
3 data we had; and Paul Wright and Jim Plank would supply
4 numbers for data that we did not have, that we could
5 not find in the study file or in the animal department
6 or any of the service labs.
7
MR. JONES: Let me object to the non-responsiveness
8 of that question.
9 BY MR. JONES:
10
Q
What I'm asking for is: Did you just
1.1 handwrite -- and I'm just limiting it to your reports,
12 reports that you prepared -- did you handwrite that
13 out first before you submitted it to the typing pool?
14
A
The entire report would have been
15
handwritten by one or more people before it went to
16
the typing pool, and it would have been numbers that
17
were put into blank table form, a standard table form.
18
In September of '71, several people were
19
involved in putting those numbers into the report.
20
Q
After you had all the handwritten report
21 prepared from all the various parties, then you would
22
give it to the typing pool at that point?
23
A
At that point in time, Mr. Plank or
24
Dr. Wright would submit it to the typing pool.
( 11VoriE, cRosErzE143 and c_rissociatEs, grzc.
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1
Q
After it came back typed, what would happen
2 to that report?
3
A
Somebody would proofread it.
4
Q
Would that be --
5
A
Or parts of it.
6
Q
Would that be your job?
7
A
In September of '71, I proofread parts of
8 some reports, yes.
9
Q
And after the proofreading was over and the
10 corrections made or whatever you decided needed to be
revised or corrected and then retyped, what would
12 happen to that report?
13
A
I would take it to Jim Plank or Paul Wright,
14 and they would examine it and make any changes they
15 felt were necessary.
16
When they thought that it was done to that
17
point, they would call me to sign the report. They
18 would sign the report and send it up the ladder to the
19 other managers that reviewed and signed the reports.
20
Q
So at that point, then, the report would be
21 signed?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
Did you ever refuse to sign a report?
24
A
Yes, I did.
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Q
When did you refuse to sign a report, or
2
what report was it?
3
A
It was a report on a study for Syntex
4 Corporation, B-7922, and that would have been in
5 approximately October, early November, 1971.
6
Q
What was the compound involved in that
7 report?
8
A
Naprosyn.
9
Q
Why did you refuse to sign that report?
10
A
Because the person that was in charge of the
11 study at the time it was sacrificed forgot to have all
12 of the final blood and urine work done that was called
13 for in the protocol.
14
Q
Was any data falsified on that report?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
So you wouldn't sign the report because it
17
had false data in it, then?
18
A
I didn't even -- when I refused to sign it,
19 it was when I turned over the animal department files
20 and the rough draft with what data there was existing
21 in it to Paul Wright, and I told him that this data
22 had not been collected and that I had searched the
23 service labs for it and could not find it; and that
24 here was the study file and the rough draft with what
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1 information existed in it, and that I would not sign a 2 final report on this study.
3
Q
So you wouldn't then sign a report, then,
4 that would have the false data in it; it was just your
5 principle?
6
A
I wouldn't sign that report at that
7 particular time.
8
Q
But you wouldn't sign a report that had
9 false data in it?
10
A
I did sign several reports that had false
11 data in it.
12
Q
Why is that?
13
A
Because in my process of learning about
14 toxicology, that people that were PhDs above me
15 indicated it was perfectly all right if you had a
16 starting and end point to falsify whatever you needed
17
in the middle.
18
Q
What was the date of the Naprosyn study?
19
A
I don't know what you mean by date. When
20 the study was run? When the report was issued?
21
Q
When the report was issued or signed up.
22
A
I don't know the exact date that's on the
23
report, but I believe it would have been like
24
November of '71.
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Q
So then it's safe to assume, then, at around
2
November of '71, you would not sign any reports that
3 had any false data in it?
4
A
In November of 1971, I would not sign the
5
Naprosyn report.
6
Q
My question, though, is: Would you, in and
7
around November of 1971, sign any report that had
8 false data?
9
A
In November and -- October, November,
10 December of '71, I signed several reports that
11 contained false data in it.
12
Q
You are not answering my question, though.
13
You stated that you would not sign the
14
Naprosyn report.
15
A
That is correct.
16
Q
And you did not sign it because you had
17
learned, at least by November of '71, that you were
18 not supposed to sign reports with false data, is that
19
correct?
20
A
I'm not sure I understand your question.
21
Q
Well, the question is -- you told me
22
earlier, did you not, that the reason you refused to
23
sign the Naprosyn report while you had signed earlier
24
reports that had false data is because no longer would
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MONSPCB0019047
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1 you take the word for doctors and people of that
2
nature as to reports having false data in it?
3
MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question as
4
not being consistent with his prior testimony.
5
BY MR. JONES:
6
Q
What is your prior testimony in that regard?
7
MR. POHL: Maybe we should read it back.
8
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by the
9
reporter as requested.)
10
MR. JONES: That's the way I remembered it, too.
1,1
BY MR. JONES:
12
Q
Do you care to change anything that the
13
reporter read back on your previous answer?
14
A
No.
15
Q
So then it's safe to assume, then, in the
16
October, November of '71 time frame, that you'd no
17
longer sign reports that had false data in it?
18
A
No, that's not true.
19
Q
You would sign
20
A
I did sign reports then that had false data
21
in them.
22
Q
Tell me the reason that you would sign a
23
report in November or October of '71 that had false
24
data in it, when during that same time period you
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1 would not sign a Naprosyn report which had false data
2
in it?
3
A
At the time period when I refused to -- I
4
signed reports that had false data in it, and it was
5 because I had been told it was okay if you had a
6
starting and end point to falsify the stuff in the
7
middle.
8
The Naprosyn study was missing an end point.
9 All of the blood work was to be done at the end, and
10
it was missing all of the final urine data. So that
1.1 was missing an end point.
12
It was different than having a beginning
13 and an end and filling in in the middle.
14
Q
Did anyone tell you why that would make a
15
difference, any of these PhDs that you told me about?
16
A
Nobody specifically said that there would
17
be a difference, but I could see that at the time that
18 Paul Wright told me if you had a beginning and an end
19 point, it made no difference what you had in the
20 middle; that was perfectly okay; what was important
21 was that you knew where you started and what was
22 _ important was what the end point was. The Naprosyn
23
study did not have an end point in the blood and urine
24
data.
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1
Q
Do you think not having data in the middle
2 - would have affected the outcome of the studies, as you
3 sit here today?
4
A
The outcome of which study?
5
Q
Any study if you had missing data from the
6 middle of the study.
7
A
From the standpoint of today, yes, it would
8 make a difference.
9
Q
When did you learn that?
10
A
It became more obvious through late '72 into
11
'73.
12
Q
13
A
How did it become more obvious to you? Just my knowledge in the field and
14
experience was increasing.
15
Q
You said that your knowledge was increasing.
16
A
I can't hear all of what you are saying.
17
Q
I believe you said that your knowledge was
18
increasing.
19
How was it increasing if during that time
20
you were not working in the animal departments
21
themselves?
22
A
_My knowledge of what? My knowledge of the
23
field of toxicology was increasing.
24
Q
How was it increasing?
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1
A
Through the experience, the number of
2 studies I was seeing, journals that I was reading,
3 work from other places, what some clients were
4 expecting as far as data and reports.
5
Q
Earlier in your testimony today you stated
6 that there were two companies that requested draft
7
reports.
8
A
That is correct.
9
Q
Who were those companies?
10
A
Monsanto and Ciba-Geigy Corporation.
11
Q
Was Ciba-Geigy Corporation a customer of
12 IBT at the time that you went to work for them?
13
A
I have no idea. I know that there were
14
studies in our department that were started not long
15 after I began working there.
16
Q
You talked a little bit earlier about the
17
government having sent people out at least on that one
18
occasion that you referred to earlier to review the
19
labs and review the studies that were underway at that
20
time.
21
I believe you said it was the U.S. Army, is
22
that correct?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
And you said that there was some impropriety
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1 with that report, or which report were you referring to?
2
A
Which impropriety that I was talking to?
3 There were several.
4
Q
Well, you said that the government -- do you
5 remember when we were having the conversations
6 concerning the value of the governmental reports?
7
A
Yes. I was understanding that we were
8 talking about the Atomic Energy Commission at that
9 time.
10
Q
That would be fine. That's good.
11
In that report, was there anything other
12 than a final report sent to the Atomic Energy
13 Commission?
14
A
There were some interim reports.
15
Q
Was there any raw data submitted to the
16 Atomic Energy Commission?
17
A
I have no idea whether raw data was
18 submitted to them or not.
19
Q
Was raw data ever submitted to any of the
20
companies for which IBT prepared reports and conducted
21 studies?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
Was that the usual rule, or was that
24
uncommon, or is it something in between?
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1
A
The government required all companies doing
2 business with Bio-Test to get their raw data and
3 examine the stuff in the late '70s.
4
Q
What about in the 1971 time frame?
5
A
Nobody received their raw data then.
6 Occasionally, clients would receive tissue samples to
7 run their own tests on and generate their own data as
8 far as residue levels in the tissue samples, but
9 otherwise clients were not routinely sent raw data.
10 That was part of the IBT files.
11
Q
But that changed, then, in the late '70s,
12 is that what you are saying?
13
A
Well, when the company got in trouble
14 because of the government investigation, the
15
government required all the clients to obtain the raw
16
data for their studies and audit and verify the
17 validity of the tests.
18
Q
Was there anyone else other than the United
19
States Government, any other customers of IBT, that
20 ever visited the offices of IBT?
21
A
Monsanto personnel.
22
Q
Anyone else?
23
A
Some Ciba-Geigy personnel. I remember
24
somebody from Gillette and some of the clients from
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1 Japan would come and visit.
2
Q
What clients are those?
3
A
The companies in Japan that were conducting
4 studies at Bio-Test Labs.
5
Q
Do you know the names of those?
6
A
No. I know the names of some of the
7 companies over there. The people that I saw there
8 that were from those companies, I couldn't tell you
9 which companies they were from.
10
Q
Can you give me the names of some of those
11 Japanese clients, then?
12
A
Sumitomo Chemicals.
13
Q
Any other Japanese companies that you can
14 remember that visited the offices of IBT?
15
A
There were several Japanese clients that had
16 people in there, and I can't at the present time
17
remember the names of all of the companies from Japan
18 that were doing business there.
19
Q
Were there any other customers other than
20 the Japanese clients, Monsanto and Ciba-Geigy and
21 Gillette that ever visited the offices of IBT?
22
A
Not that I am personally aware of.
23
Q
Did any of these companies that visited the
24
offices of IBT ever go into the lab where the animals
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Pi
were housed?
2
A I have no idea.
3
Before I go on, can you# repeat your question
4 and my last answer?
5
(WMERSUPON, the record was read by the
6
reporter as requested.)
7 BY TB! WITNESS?
A The parson from Monsantio was back in the
9 monkey area one time that I am mars of.
BY MR. JONES1
Q When was that?
12
A '71.
/3
Q Do you know who that was?
14
A I believe a Dr. Lou Share. There was
15 somebody aims -- I don't recall his name that was
16 with him from Monsanto.
17
Q Is that the only other, occasion that you
18 can remember of any other customer of ZIT, other than
19 the United States Government. gating back into the
20 tabs?
21
A When they came to IBT they didn't meet
22 with me. and whether somebody e4se took them back or
23 not. I have no idea.
24
Q Did you personally see Dr. Shari and this
W WOITC itArk
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MONSPCB0019055
111
1 other person in the monkey area?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
And that was in 1971?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
How old a man are you?
6
A
40.
7
Q
Are you currently married?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
You hesitated.
10
Why did you hesitate?
11
A
Because I have a longstanding separation
12 with my wife.
13
Q
Who is your wife?
14
A
Sandra Smith.
15
Q
You are not divorced, then?
16
A
No.
17
Q
Do you have any kids?
18
A
No.
19
Q
You have given me a list of the customers of
20
IBT, and what I'd like for you to do, the best that
21
you can, is for each of those customers, to tell me
22
what products were being tested, and let's just start
23
off with Monsanto Company.
24
A
A lot of the products that Monsanto was
VI!IA
qa/OffE, GROSEIZE7.9 and cgsiociatzs, ilnc.
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MONSPCB0019056
112
1 testing there were tested there under code numbers.
2
Q
You don't know the products that were tested
3
by Monsanto Company?
4
A
Some of them, I do.
5
Q
What were the ones that you do remember?
6
A
Aroclor, Roundup, Lasso, Polaris, Rogue
7
Metabolites. There were a number of others that were
8
all code names. There were just code numbers, letters
9
and numbers.
10
Q
I understand that there may be other ones.
I just want to know the ones that you remember.
12
Is that all that you remember?
13
A
At the present time, yes.
14
Q
Of these products that you just referred to,
15
which ones did you personally work on the studies that
16
were being conducted?
17
A
All of those.
18
There is one other Monsanto material that I
19
remember working on. It's TCC.
20
Q
Could you tell us what TCC is?
21
A
Trichlorocarbon.
22
Q
Any others you remember?
23
A
At the moment, no.
24
Q
How long have you been separated from your
( Wofiz, cRoszngvEg and C.4110Ciat1, Li ne .
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MONSPCB0019057
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1
wife?
2
A
13 years.
3
Q
It doesn't sound like you have any plans for
4
a divorce, do you?
5
A
No.
6
Q
Do you know where she lives?
7
A
No, I don't.
8
Q
Do you know what area she lives in?
9
A
Central Illinois.
10
Q
Do you know the city or town?
11
A
Somewhere around Decatur. I don't believe
12
she lives in Decatur, Illinois.
13
Q
If you were to try to find her, how would
14
you go about finding her?
15
A
I wouldn't try.
16
Q
I understand. But if you needed to get in
17
touch with her, how would you try to get in touch with
18
her?
19
A
I would probably call the laboratory down
20
in Decatur, and I'm not sure what the name of it is
21
anymore. Bio-Test sold it. She was working in the
22
laboratory down there.
23
Q
The Decatur laboratory?
24
A
Yes, and Bio-Test sold it, and I can't
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MONSPCB0019058
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think of the company that purchased it at the moment.
2
Q
What is she currently doing over there?
3
A
I have no idea.
4
Q
Have you had any contact with her since 13
5
years ago?
6
A
Well, we worked at Bio-Test together through
7 1977, and I have seen her once since 1977 and spoke to
8 her once since 1980.
9
Q
I'd like to continue with the names of these
10
companies that you remember that were customers of IBT.
11
Syntex, what were the products that you
12 remember being tested at IBT?
13
A
Naprosyn. There was one other material that
14 was identified as a letter and number code name, and I
15
don't remember that.
16
Q
What about Ciba-Geigy?
17
A
All of their materials were identified by
18
code number.
19
Q
You don't remember any of the compounds that
20 were being tested for them?
21
A
I remember the types of several compounds.
22
Q
What were the types?
23
A
Fluorescent whitening compounds, compound
24
that was to be used in causing some kind of fruit to
UV%
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aicayo, il inaois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019059
115
1 drop from the tree early when they went to pick them,
2 and then pesticides.
3
Q
You don't remember the compound names?
4
A
They were identified with letters and
5 numbers, like two letters and six or seven numbers.
6
Q
I understand that. Did you ever know the
7 names of those compounds?
8
A
All I knew them as were letters and numbers.
9
Q
You never knew the names of the compounds,
10 though, is my question.
11
A
On the Ciba-Geigy stuff?
12
Q
Yes.
13
A
Just what I knew was the research number
14 identification and occasionally what type of material
15 it was as far as like a fluorescent whitening compound.
16
Q
But my question is: Did you ever know what
17
the names of the compounds were that were being tested
18 by IBT for Ciba-Geigy?
19
A
Not that I am aware of at the present time.
20
Q
Is there anything you can do that would
21 refresh your recollection?
22
A
If I went back to the study lists and stuff
23
for the entire department during the period of time
24
that I worked there, I probably could --
(WorfE, _RolEnte7.9 and c...jblociatEl, _enc.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Q
Remember what the compounds are?
A
Sure.
116
XVRIA WoffE, _.A7olErz.tE.r.9 and .c:gis.ocia.tEi, a2c.
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MONSPCB0019061
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Q
What about American Cyanimide? What
compounds were tested for that company at IBT?
A
Auramine, Calcozeine Yellow SFW unblended.
Q
Did you work with any of those compounds?
A
Yes.
Q
Which ones?
A
Both of them.
Q
Let's take Chevron. What compounds would
they be testing at IBT?
A
The only one that I am aware of was a
material identified as RE-12420.
Q
Is that a number aiven by IBT?
A
No.
Q
That's a number given by Chevron?
A
By Chevron.
Q
Do you remember any other products?
A
Not by Chevron.
Q
What compounds were tested by IBT on behalf
of Shell?
A
At the moment, the names escape me.
Q
Could you tell me what the products tested
for Abbott Laboratories were?
A
Selsun Blue is the only one I can think of
at the moment.
Wail ( Wo z, Rosznget9 and c:41sociates, J12c.
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MONSPCB0019062
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1
Q
Can you tell me what the compounds tested
2
for Gillett were?
3
A
No.
4
Q
Can you tell me what the compounds tested
5
for Proctor & Gamble were?
6
A
A compound called XTW-739, I believe.
7
Q
Any others?
8
A
Not that I am familiar with.
9
Q
Can you tell me which products were tested
10
for Baychem?
11
A
Nemacor and Sencor.
12
Q
Can you remember any of the previous names
13
for that company? Is Baychem the only one that you
14
can remember? I believe you said there may have been
15
some other company names.
16
A
At the moment I can't think of what the
17
other names were.
18
Q
Were there any other compounds tested for
19 Baychem?
20
A
Possibly Metasystox-R was one of their
21
products.
22
Q
You said possibly.
23
Do you have any recollection that that was
24
in fact tested?
VI ilnc. !IA ( 14/offE., ..Roltngt7.9 and cAlsocEatti,
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MONSPCB0019063
119
1
A
I know we tested Metasystox-R, and I think
2
that was one of their compounds.
3
Q
It may be another company's compound; you
4
just don't recall?
5
A
Yes, at the moment.
6
Q
What compounds were tested for IMC?
7
A
I don't know. I can't remember. They were
8
all number and letter codes, and I don't remember.
9
There was only one or two studies that I remember,
10
and I don't remember what the codes were.
11
Q
Can you tell me what the compounds tested
12
for Stouffer's were?
13
A
I can't think -- the compound was some kind
14
of leavening agent, and it was done in a combined
15
study with Monsanto and Stouffer's and somebody else.
16
Q
Can you tell me the names of any compounds
17
or products tested by IBT on behalf of FMC?
18
A
Ethion.
19
Q
Can you remember any other products?
20
A
No, they only -- I only remember one study
21
that I was aware of.
22
Q
Can you tell me the products that were
23
tested by Hercules?
24
A
Toxaphene.
CliVoffE, c_Rosentvtg and c4isocLatzl , gna.
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MONSPCB0019064
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1
Q
Any others?
2
A
Not that I am aware of.
3
Q
4
Exxon?
What products were tested on behalf of
5
A
A lot of the work that was done for Exxon
6
were special studies regarding blood lead levels due
7
to exposure to automobile exhaust fumes. They may
8
have done other studies, but those are the only ones
9
I am aware of.
10
Q
Any other products that you remember?
11
A
Not that I am aware of.
12
Q
Tell me those products tested by IBT on
13
behalf of DuPont.
14
A
I did not work in the area where they did a
15
lot of their work.
16
Q
You didn't work on any of their studies?
17
A
No.
18
Q
What products or compounds were tested on
19
behalf of the Atomic Energy Commission?
20
A
Irradiated papayas, irradiated -- there
21
were other irradiated fruits that they tested for the
Atomic Energy Commission before I was employed there.
23
Q
Can you remember anything else?
24
A
Strawberries, I believe.
(111/oriz, cRosEngEty and c:7416.ociatE6., _Cnc.
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MONSPCB0019065
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Q
Anything else?
A
No.
Q
What products or compounds were tested for
the National Institute on Drug Abuse?
A
Delta 9, THC, methadone, LAMM. There was
one other that they did. At the moment, I don't
remember what the test material was.
Q
Tell me all of the compounds or products
tested on behalf of the FDA.
A
I can tell you the ones that I remember.
Q
That's all I am asking for.
A
They tested a number of food colorings,
like Red Number 2, Red Number 5, Red Number 40 and
several of the yellow food colorings.
Q
Is that all?
A
That's all the studies that I know about.
Q
Tell me those compounds or products tested
by IBT on behalf of the U.S. Army?
A
Irradiated beef.
Q
Anything else?
A
I don't know. There was an irradiated fish
study, but I am not sure whether that was sponsored
by the Army or the Atomic Energy Commission.
Q
Anything else you can think of?
MYRA ( MITE, c..Ros.EntEtg and c41.1ocialEs. ,
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MONSPCB0019066
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1
A
No. There were proposed studies that never
2
got started before the place closed down.
3
Q
What compounds or products were tested on
4
behalf of HEW?
5
A
Zinc and cadmium.
6
Q
Is that all?
7
A
That's all that I am familiar with.
8
Q
The only Japanese client that you remember
9
is Sumitomo?
10
A
Sunlitomo.
11
Q
What products were they testing?
12
A
SCLEX. Another material I believe was
13
called Salathion.
14
Q
Is that all you remember?
15
A
That's all that I am familiar with, yes.
16
We did a study for Nalco Chemical
17
Corporation.
18
Q
What did IBT test for Nalco?
19
A
Alcolyte 607.
20
Q
Do you remember any other studies or any
21
other customers of IBT?
22
A
There were thousands of studies.
23
Q
I understand. I'm just trying to get what
24
you remember.
VIak
Wolf cRolzntztg and ShlociatEs, il n.c.
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MONSPCB0019067
7A
123
1
A
At the present time, without being able to
2
refresh my recollection with documents as far as
3
client lists and stuff, those are the ones that I
4
remember.
5
Q
Of those customers that we have been
6
discussing here, were there any improprieties on
7
those studies?
8
A
On the studies on the materials that we
9
have spoken about?
10
Q
Yes.
11
A
Some, yes.
12
Q
Can you tell me which companies had
13
problems with the studies conducted by IBT?
14
A
Monsanto, Chevron, Ciba-Geigy, Baychem,
15
Atomic Energy Commission, Nalco.
16
Q
Was Nalco the parent company of IBT?
17
A
Yes, sir.
18
Q
Was it the parent company during this
19
particular time when the study that you are referring
20
to --
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
What time period was that?
23
A
The actual feeding in the study ended in
24 1971 or '72.
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MONSPCB0019068
124
1
Q
Any other companies whose reports you feel
2
were improper?
3
A
Sumitomo. Did you get the Baychem down
4
there?
5
Q
Yes.
6
A
Could you read me the list that we have
7
already and the list that we went through?
8
Q
Monsanto, Ciba-Geigy, Syntex --
9
A
Syntex had a problem.
10
Q
American Cyanimide?
11
A
I have no idea about that one.
12
Q
Chevron?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Shell?
15
A
I can't tell you about Shell.
16
Q
Abbott Laboratories?
17
A
I can't tell you about Abbott Laboratories.
18
Q
Gillett?
19
A
Not that I know of.
20
Q
Proctor & Gamble?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
IMC?
23
A
I do not know.
24
Q
Stouffer's?
(1/1/oriE, cRolEntztg and (_..41loctiatzl, _One. C4icago, gifinoi.. (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019069
125
1
A
I do not know.
2
Q
FDIC?
3
A
Is that the one where I indicated Ethion
4
was the material that was tested for them?
5
Q
Yes.
6
A
I know there was a problem with the Ethion
7
material, and I am pretty sure it was FMC that the
8
study was done for.
9
Q
Hercules?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Exxon?
12
A
I have no idea.
13
Q
DuPont?
14
A
I have no idea.
15
Q
Sumitomo? I believe you said that Sumitomo
16
did have a problem?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
That's all I have got listed -- well, the
19
Atomic Energy Commission. You have said that there
20
was a problem there.
21
A
Yes. There were more studies than that
22
that there were problems with, but without the
23
information that I compiled at the time that I
24
audited studies, I couldn't give you an answer without
WAWA
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MONSPCB0019070
126
1
refreshing my memory on the rest of them. But there
2
were more studies that had problems with them.
3
Q
There were several for the Atomic Energy
4
Commission?
5
MR. POHL: That were done or had problems?
6
BY THE WITNESS:
7
A
There were several studies that were done
8
for the Atomic Energy Commission. The only one I
9
know there was a problem with was the two-year oral
10
toxicity study with the irradiated papayas.
11
Q
What about the National Institute on Drua
12
Abuse?
13
A
I am aware of some problems with it. No
14
major falsification or anything.
15
Q
Well, are there any improprieties in
16
connection with those studies, in your opinion?
17
A
No. I believe all of the procedures were
18
fully described in the report and reported as such.
19
Q
What about the FDA?
20
A
No improprieties that I am aware of.
21
Q
The U.S. Army there was, I believe you said
22 earlier?
23
A
No, there was a problem, and they had to
24
restart one of their studies.
( 11VoffE, cRoiEngE1.9 and c liociatEs, gnc.
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MONSPCB0019071
127
1
Q
Were there any improprieties in any of the
2 studies, in your opinion?
3
A
Not that I am aware of.
4
Q
HEW?
5
A
Not that I am aware of.
6
Q
Now, if these companies that we just talked
7
about that may have had some type of problems with
8
the studies -- are we talking about one study or
9
several studies with companies or what?
10
A
In most cases one study. For some of the
11
clients more than one study.
12
Q
What role did you have or involvement in
13
any of the studies that you considered to have been
14
improper?
15
That may be too broad.
16
A
I think it's too broad of a question. It
17
would depend on the various materials and the study.
18
Q
Let's try to get a time frame then.
19
For the Monsanto studies, what time frame
20
are we referring to as to those studies being
21
improper?
22
MR. POHL: Well, I have to object to the time
23
frame of the studies being improper. He audited
24
studies in 1976.
% 71.11A
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MONSPCB0019072
128
1 MR. JONES: I am asking him specifically then.
2
BY MR. JONES:
3
Q
What studies then with Monsanto do you
4
consider to be improper?
5
A
Aroclor, TCC. There were some problems
6
with both the Roundup and the Lasso study. The
7
Polaris study is improper, and I would have to see
8
the other documents to say for sure, but I think the
9
Rogue Metabolites study was improper.
10
Q
When were the Aroclor studies conducted or
11
what is the report date?
12
A
The report date is fall of 1971. Work
13
continued on the studies through 1975 or '76, at
14
least that I am aware of.
15
Q
So you are saying there were studies on
16
Monsanto's Aroclor product after 1971 up through 1976?
17
A
They were sending out revisions to the
18
report and cutting more tissues and examining -
19
Q
I am just talking about the studies. I am
20
not talking about any additional studies. The
21 original studies --
22
A
Part of the study is examining the tissues
23
microscopically, and work was being done on the Aroclor
24 studies through the mid-'70s.
W riPIA.
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E, GROSElZgE7.43 and c:4swala.tEs, _enc.
aicayo, girinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019073
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1
Q
Were there any additional animals being
2
dosed or anything of that nature during that time?
3
A
During which time?
4
Q
Well, you said that there were some
5
additional tissues on the Aroclor studies after 1971
6
up through 1976.
7
Are you saying there were some more tests
8
and doses being conducted on animals?
9
A
I have no idea.
10
Q
Were you involved in any of the Aroclor
11
studies past 1971?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
Which ones?
14
A
The two-year oral toxicity studies on
15
Aroclor 1242, 1254 and 1260.
16
Q
What did you do with those studies after
17
1971?
18
A
Well, I was aware that extra tissues were
19 being processed, and the --
20
Q
I'm not asking you what you were aware of.
21
What I was asking you is did you have any
22 involvement with any of those studies subsequent to
23 1971?
24
A
I was involved with the U.S. Attorney and
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MONSPCB0019074
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1
the FDA investigators going through all of the
2
records.
3
Q
I'm talking about the conducting of the
4
studies.
5
A
When you say "conducting," do you mean
6
during the actual feeding period? The feeding period
7
was over with in 1971.
8
Q
Or anything. I'm just talking about any
9
involvement during your employment with IBT from
10
1971 to 1976.
11
What role, if any, did you play in
12
connection with any report generated on Monsanto's
13
Aroclor studies?
14
A
In 1971, I worked on preparing parts of
15
the final report.
16
Q
And this is the two-year oral toxicity
17
studies for 1242, 1254 and 1260?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Did you work on any other studies?
20
MR. POHL: For Monsanto?
21
M.R. JONES: For Monsanto.
22
BY THE WITNESS:
23
A
For Monsanto?
24
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MONSPCB0019075
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1
BY MR. JONES:
2
Q
Yes.
3
A
Yes, I worked on other studies for
4
Monsanto.
5
Q
Aroclor is what we are talking about.
6
A
Other Aroclor studies? I did not work on
7
other Aroclor studies that IBT did.
8
Q
That's all I was trying to find out is
9
what study you actually worked on.
10
Just so it's clear and I understand what
11
you said, the only Aroclor studies that you worked on
12
were the ones in 1971 involving the two-year oral
13
toxicity studies concerning Aroclor 1242, 1254 and
14
1260?
15
MR. POHL: Would you read that back?
16
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
17
the reporter as requested.)
18
MR. POHL: I'm not sure that's a question.
19
BY MR. JONES:
20
Q
Is that correct?
21
A
I'm not sure it's a question either. It's
22
a statement you are looking for me to agree to.
23
Q
It is a question.
24
MR. POHL: I'11 object to the form. It's leading.
vfif VIMA
( 14/Off GROI.EngE7.5 and ogliociatEl., LJ
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MONSPCB0019076
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1
I'm not going to bother you with all the
2
leading objections but --
3
BY MR. JONES:
4
Q
I just want to understand, and I'm not
5
trying to be obstinate or anything, but I'm just
6
trying to pin down as to what studies you worked on,
7
and I just want to know for sure that we have them.
8
Is it not true that the only studies that
9
you worked on on behalf of Monsanto Company while
10
you were working at IBT concerning Aroclor was this
11
two-year oral toxicity study in 1971 concerning
12
Aroclor 1242, 1254 and 1260?
13
A
At this point in time, my recollection is
14
that those are the only Aroclor studies that I
15
worked on for Monsanto.
16
Q
What was your role or involvement in those
17
three studies?
18
A
I was involved in assisting and preparing
19
the final report for all three materials.
20
I weighed animals in the study or assisted
21
in weighing animals in the study. I may have been
22
assigned to the necropsy lab weighing organs at the
23
time the final sacrifices took place.
24
Q
I only want to know things that you remember.
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1
I know you said you may.
2
A
I said I believe I did.
3
Q
You are not sure if you did or not.
4
A
I'd have to look at some of the old study
5
records to be able to tell you for sure.
6
MR. POHL: Before he asked that last question,
7
were you finished citing the things that you did in
connection with the Aroclor studies?
9
THE WITNESS: No. I assisted in feeding the
10
study, hanging the water bottles. I think that
11
covers most of it.
12
BY MR. JONES:
13
Q
Now, I just want to make sure that I have
14
got my list complete as to what you did on these three
15
studies back in the 1971 time frame.
16
You assisted in preparing the final reports,
17
and you authored those reports or at least portions of
18
those reports?
19
A
I helped prepare them, yes.
20
Q
And you also assisted in feeding the animals
21
and hanging water bottles and you may have worked in
22
the necropsy lab?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
Have I listed everything that you did in
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1
connection with those studies?
2
A
Without checking the records,- I possibly
3
could have conducted an audit on the records.
4
MR. POHL: I believe he also testified he weighed
5
the animals. You left that out of the list.
6
BY MR. JONES:
7
Q
Did you also weigh the animals, too?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
And you may have conducted an audit?
10
A
Right.
11
Q
But you don't remember if you did or not?
12
A
I'd have to examine study documents to
13
refresh my recollection.
14
Q
What study documents would you refer to?
15
A
I would refer to audit reports on the study,
16
memos that I wrote indicating what studies the audit
17
groups had been auditing.
18
Q
When would this audit have taken place, if
19
it did take place?
20
A
1976 or early 1977.
21
Q
You are saying what you would look at would
22
be the report that you may have prepared in connection
23
with your audit?
24
A
It depends on which -- if it was audited,
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1
which audit group examined it. There were two
2
different audit groups, and their tasks in auditing
3
the study were different.
4
Q
How were they different?
5
A
The first audit group that we had, the
6
studies that we audited, we looked at to see if there
7
was raw data in the study files to support what was
8
reported in the final reports.
9
Q
Who was a part of that audit group?
10
A
By "a part," do you mean who was involved?
11
Q
Yes. Who was in the group.
12
A
In auditing?
13
Q
Yes, sir.
14
A
Myself, Steve Weskerna and Marilyn Biederer.
15
Q
And that was the audit group in 1976?
16
A
In early 1976.
17
Q
You said there was a second one that may
18 have been in early 1976?
19
A
20 1977.
Not maybe. It was in late 1976 or early
21
Q
Who was a part of that audit group?
22
A
There were 14 people involved in auditing
23 studies during the course of the audit, including
24 Dennis Arnold, Carol Smith, Marilyn Biedere, Steve
WA%
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1
Weskerna, Gregg Ochita, Dennis Stakowac.
2
Q
Yourself?
3
A
Myself. I don't know how many people we
4
have counted so far.
5
Q
About seven there.
6
A
I can't recall all the rest of them at the
7
present time without checking the records of the
8
audit.
9
Q
What was the purpose of this first audit
10
group in early 1976?
11
A
The purpose of the first audit group was,
12
as I stated before, to examine the raw data and see
13
if there was raw data in the study files to support
14
data reported in the final report on reports that
15
were selected by Dr. Keplinger.
16
Q
Were there selected studies that you would
17
look at, or was it all the studies of IBT at the
18 time?
19
A
Dr. Keplinger selected long-term rat and
20
mouse studies that were done in the rat toxicity
21 department in Northbrook.
22
Q
And I believe you said you didn't know if
23
the Aroclor studies were audited in that first group.
24
A
No, I don't without checking the records.
WRIA, (11Vo fE, cRolente7.9 and Silsociates, gna.
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1
Q
Now, the second audit group in late 1976,
2 early 1977, what was the purpose of that audit group?
3
A
We audited almost all of the rat toxicity
4 studies. Once again, they were selected by
5 Dr. Keplinger.
6
Then we selected random studies from all
7
areas of the company, and we looked at them to see if
8
there was raw data to support all of the data
9
reported in the final report, and then we compared
10
the raw data to what was reported in the final report
11
to see if it was accurately reported.
12
Q
In this second audit group in late 1976,
13
early 1977, did you duplicate then the work that you
14
did in the audit group in 1976, the early part of
15
1976?
16
A
The work that we did in late '76 was much
17
more thorough. There wasn't a lot from early '76 to
18
be duplicated.
19
I believe some of the reports that we
20
looked at in early '76 we looked at later, but it
21
was a more in--depth examination of the reports and
22
the data.
23
Q
And you don't remember if Monsanto's
24 Aroclor studies were audited in that second audit
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1
group?
2
A
3
audit.
Not without examining the records from the
4
Q
On both occasions, both audit groups, you
5
said it was Dr. Keplinger that made the decision as
6
to which studies would be reviewed?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
Did he assign you to that project?
9
A
No, Dr. Calandra did.
10
Q
Let's go back up to the two-year oral
11
toxicity studies that were being conducted in the
12
1971 time frame that you referred to earlier
13
concerning Aroclors 1242, 1254 and 1260.
14
You said that you assisted in preparing
15
the final reports, assisted in feeding. You assisted
16
in hanging the water bottles. You may have assisted
17
in the necropsy lab, and you weighed animals. You
18
said you also may have worked on these two audit
19
groups.
20
If I understand your earlier testimony,
21
that's all that you did with respect to those three
22
studies?
23
A
At the present time, that's all that I
24
remember.
INFRA
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1
Q
What would you look at to refresh your
2 recollection?
3
A
All of the study records and all of the
4
audit records and memos involving the audits.
5
Q
Besides the audit records you said you
6
would review study records.
7
What particular study records would you
8
review?
9
A
I'd have to look at all of them.
10
Q
What are they?
11
A
The things that I was involved with as
12
far as body weights.
13
Q
You are talking about --
14
A
Food consumption records, raw data.
15
Q
You are saying you would go to the study
16
file; that's what you would look at for the
17
particular study?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
And id you saw that, something might
20
refresh your recollection if you did something else?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
Would there be anything else that you would
23
look at to refresh your memory other than the study
24
file and excluding your audit work?
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1
A
Not that I can remember at the present time.
2
Q
What I'd like for you to do is tell me,
3
the best that you can, when the three two--year oral
4
toxicity studies concerning the Aroclors that we have
5
been referring to, when they were commenced or
6
started?
7
A
They were started in 1979.
8
Q
Of course, you weren't working for IBT at
9
that time?
10
A
No.
11
Q
So prior to the time that you were employed
12
on January 25, 1971, you had no personal knowledge
13
then of any of the dosing, any of the care of the
14
animals because you weren't employed at IBT at that
15
time?
16
A
That gets into our debate again about the
17
definition of personal knowledge.
18
Q
Well, what do you know about that then?
19
Let's talk about personal knowledge as you define it.
20
A
My personal knowledge as of having had
21
examined the records, much of the body weight and food
22
consumption data records were missing during the
23
course of the study.
24
Q
I'm talking about the actual care of the
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141
animals, not particular documents at this point.
You didn't observe how the animals were
being cared for prior to January 25, 1971?
4
A
I wasn't there before January 25, 1971, so
5
I did not observe the actual feeding and weighing and
6
care.
7
Q
Do you know when the dosing of the animals
8
was completed on those studies?
9
A
Sometime in early summer of 1971. The
10
exact date would be indicated in the study records.
11
Q
Did you say '81 or '71?
12
A
'71, I believe.
13
Q
When did you assist in the feeding of the
14
animals concerning the Aroclor studies that we have
15
been talking about?
16
A
In early 1971.
17
Q
Can you give me some dates?
18
A
It would have been between the time I
19
started in January of -- January 25th and the end of
20
the study later in '71.
21
Once again, I'd have to examine the food
22
consumption records to see if any of those are in my
23
handwriting, and then other than that it's -- there
24
were no -- in the older studies, food consumption
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1
records were kept for one week, and if I fed them in --
2 when I fed them and there was no food consumption
3
required, there would be no record of them having
4 been fed.
5
I'm not sure whether I made that clear or
6
not.
7
Q
I'm not sure I understand.
8
A
What I'm saying is my handwriting may be
9
on some of the food consumption records, but if
10
those weeks where no food consumption data was
11
collected -- I remember feeding the Aroclor studies
12
on one or two occasions, and if it's -- there might
13
be my writing on some of the food consumption records,
14
and there might not.
15
Q
When you fed the animals, you recorded it
16
in most cases?
17
A
No.
18
Q
You generally did not record the times that
19
you did feed?
20
A
It depended on the time frame in the study
21
when food consumption. records were required to be
22
kept. I do not remember if I fed it while those
23
records were to be kept. If I did, my handwriting
24
may becm.the food consumption records.
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1
If it was one of the many weeks where food
2
consumption records were not required, there is no
3
record at all of the animals having been fed.
4
Q
So you are saying as required by the study
5
protocol? Is that what you are saying?
6
A
Is what required by the study protocol?
7
MR. JONES: Read it back.
8
(WHEREUPON, the record is read by
9
the reporter as requested.)
10
BY MR. JONES:
11
Q
I guess my question is: You said, "It was
12
required to be kept."
13
What required it to be kept on certain
14
occasions and not kept on other occasions?
15
A
If we are talking about the food consumption,
16
the protocol or the standard procedure for a two-year
17
oral toxicity study would require food consumption
18
one week out of every four the last 21 months of the
19 study.
20
Q
That's why I was asking was it the study
21
protocol that you were referring to that required you
22
to keep data or not keep it. That's what I was
23 referring to.
24
A
Okay.
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1
Q
During the time that you were working on
2
the Aroclor studies, was the protocol followed?
3
A
No.
4
Q
In what ways was the protocol not followed?
5
A
The animals were not weighed at all at the
6
intervals required by the protocol.
7
Q
What other ways was the protocol not
8
followed?
9
A
I think we ought to back up just a hair.
10
Your question on the body weights, was the protocol
11
not being followed while I was working on it? When
12
I was working on the study, it was doing work that
13
was prescribed by the protocol, and that is the reason
14
I was working on the study, was because the protocol
15
required that work to be done.
16
There were times while I was employed there
17
when I was not working on the study when the protocol
18
was not being followed.
19
Q
That's what I want to establish..
20
During the time -- and you say that the
21
dosing was completed in the summer of 1971, but from
22
the period of January 25, 1971 up until that time
23
period, was the protocol being followed?
24
MR. POHL: I don't understand the question.
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1 MR. JONES: Read it back.
2
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
3
the reporter as requested.)
4 BY MR. JONES:
5
Q
Do you understand that?
6
A
I think I do.
7
Q
Okay.
8
A
Without having the study documents to
9
examine, at the moment I think there are probably a
10
lot of areas in the study during that time period
11
that were not -- where the protocol was not followed.
12
Q
I don't want you to speculate.
13
A
I'm not speculating.
14
Q
Do you remember or not?
15
A
I know there are times where it was not
16
followed.
17
Q
During the time that you were involved on
18
those Aroclor studies?
19
A
As I said before, the time when I was
20
involved on the studies was doing work that was
21
required by the protocol. So the protocol was being
22
followed at that time. Whatever was required as far
23
as work was being done, and that's why I was involved
24
with feeding or body weights or whatever.
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1
Q
What I'm just trying to get right now --
2
we will talk about those other areas later.
3
I'm just trying to get from the time you
4
were involved on the Aroclor studies, and if I
5
understand your testimony, that would have been
6
January 25, 1971 at least up until the actual dosing
7
was completed in the summer of 1971; is that a fair
8
statement?
9
A
Could you read it back?
10
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
11
the reporter as requested.)
12
MR. JONES: Let me ask it again.
13
BY MR. JONES;
14
Q
Is the time period that you were involved
15
on these three Aroclor studies from January 29, 1971
16
to the summer of 1971 when the dosing was completed?
17
A
No.
18
Q
With the exclusion of the report writing?
19
A
My involvement with it as far as body
20
weights and feeding and stuff would have ended when
21
the dosing ended and the animals were sacrificed.
22
Q
That's what I'm talking about.
23
From that time period was the protocol
24
followed?
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A
No.
Q
I'm talking about --
A
But once again, we are --- your question is
while I was working on it. When I was working on the study, I was doing work that the protocol
required. There were other people that were assigned to the study that -- and other people that were not assigned. There were tunes where the study had
nobody specifically assigned to it when the work as
specified in the protocol was not being done.
Q
I'm talking about what you observed, period,
not what you have heard from somebody else.
A
That's what I am talking about.
Q
I will get into that later, what you heard
from somebody else or what you may have read or
anything of that nature..
I am talking about you personally during
the time that you were working on those Aroclor
studies, was the protocol followed? I want your -
A
We are having major problems here, and that
is that my involvement with working on the studies
during that time period from when I started until the
animals were sacrificed was doing work that was
required by the protocol.
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1 So while I was working on it, actually
2 physically doing the work, yes, the protocol was
3
being followed; but when I was not doing that, the
4 protocol was not always being followed and seeing
5 that the animals were weighed regularly, that food
6
consumption data was collected regularly.
7
Q
Was the protocol followed then from January
8
when you first started in 1971 until the time that the
9
feeding of the animals was completed?
10
A
Not completely followed, no.
11
Q
In what aspects was it not followed?
12
A
The animals were not weighed at the
13
intervals specified in the protocol.
14
Q
How do you know that?
15
A
The body weight data is not existent. For
16
intervals where there is no body weight data, it
17
wasn't collected.
18
Q
Do you know for a personal fact that the
19
body weight data never existed?
20
A
I did not stand over the Aroclor studies
21
24 hours a day during that time period to see if
22
somebody weighed it, but out of my personal
23
experience when the data was not in the study files,
24
it was not collected.
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1
I can think of no instance where data was
2
collected and then lost.
3
Q
That still isn't my question, and I'm only
4
interested in what you know personally, not what
5
somebody told you, not the fact that something was
6
missing, but something from your own personal
7
observation.
8
A
Based on my own personal observations, the
9
protocol was not followed.
10
Q
How was it not followed?
11
A
The data was not collected when it was
12 supposed to be.
13
Q
How do you know that it was not collected?
14
A
From my personal experience at the
15 laboratory.
16
Q
I'm not interested in your personal
17 experience.
18
A
You just said through my personal knowledge
19
and experience, and that's what I'm telling you.
20
Through my personal experience, if the data was not
21 in the records, it was not collected.
22
Q
Who were the technicians that would be
23 working on the body weight data?
24
MR. POHL: Same time frame?
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1
MR. JONES: Yes, throughout the time that he was
2
working there on the Aroclor study.
3
BY THE WITNESS
4
A
Mike Black was responsible for them for
5
part of the time, and I do not know exactly when
6
Mike Black transferred
out of the department, whether
7
it was before or after the animal sacrifice;
but if
8
he transferred
out before, the study was not
9
specifically
assigned to any one technician that was
10
responsible
for the body weights.
11
Q
Who else was responsible for recording all
12
the body weight data?
13
A
The technicians assigned to the study were
14
responsible for recording the data.
15
Q
Who are they?
16
A
Mike Black, and without looking at the
17
records of when he transferred and when the study
18 ended, I can't tell you whether he was responsible
19
for it all the way to the end or not. If he
20 transferred out before, to my knowledge, no one
21 specifically was assigned to see that the study got
22 weighed.
23
Q
I want to know whoever was charged with the
24 responsibility of generating the body weight data.
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1
That's the people I want to know who they were.
2
A
I thought I answered it twice.
3
Q
Just Mike Black?
4
A
If Mike Black was responsible, if he
5
transferred out before the study was over, nobody
6
was specifically assigned to weigh the animals every
7
day.
8
Q
I am not interested in speculations or
9
anything like that. I want to know what your
10
knowledge is.
11
A
I'm not speculating. My knowledge is that
12
when he transferred out, nobody was assigned to it
13
I am telling you that I do not know when his transfer
14
took place in relation to when the Aroclor studies
15
ended.
16
Q
So you are saying once he's gone, no one
17
did any further body weight data?
18
A
19 it.
I said no one was specifically assigned to
20
Q
Maybe thats a conclusion. I want to know
21 who did it or may have been charged with the
22
responsibility of seeing --
23
A
Nobody was specifically charged with
24 day-to--day care and overseeing the Aroclor study.
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1
It would have been okay, this week we have got these
2
studies to weigh, so and so, take your pick.
3
Without going through the records and
4
looking at them to see if I could recognize
5
handwriting on each time, I can't tell you because
6
nobody was specifically assigned to it.
7
Q
Who were all of the technicians that worked
8
on the Aroclor studies?
9
A
Without going to the records, I could not
10
tell you.
11
Q
Who do you know of off the top of your head
12
right now?
13
A
Mike Black. I did some work on it. The
14
rest of them -- you'd have to ao through all the
15
individual records and see.
16
There are people in the clinical chemistry
17
labs, the histology labs --
18
4
I'm talking about the animal department
19
technicians.
20
A
Your question was about the steady --
21
Q
my question was about the technicians.
22
A
You asked what technician worked on the
23 study. I don't want to argue with you.
24
Q
My question is: Who in the animal department
`VI/IA
and c7(i , C WO[fE, GRO1EntElg
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MONSPCB0019097
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would have worked on the Aroclor studies?
2
A
Without going through the records, I
3
couldn't tell you.
4
Q
The only one you remember is yourself and
5
Mike Black?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
That's your basis for saying that when he
8
was transferred out, no one was assigned to do any
9
body weight data?
10
MR. POHL: Well, I object.
11
MR. JONES: He can answer the question.
12
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat your question?
13
(WHEREUPON, .the record was read by
14
the reporter as requested.)
15
BY THE WITNESS:
16
A
I understand what your question is, but I
17
don't understand what you mean by "that's the basis."
18
I said I do not know whether he transferred
19
out before the study was over or not. He would have
20
been the person in charge of the study all the way to
21
the end of it, unless he transferred out ahead of
22
time.
23
There were times that he was on vacation or
24 sick when work had to be done on the study and other
l ek7 R141
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1
people did do work, but when he transferred out of
2
the department no one was assigned all of the old
3
studies that he had to take over as their own. So,
4
nobody was -- would have been specifically assigned
5
to be responsible for doing the work.
6
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
7
BY MR. JONES;
8
Q
Mr. Smith, you are familiar with the IBT
9
investigation that took place in the late '70s and
10
early '80s, are you not? We talked about it earlier.
11
A
I am familiar with several investigations.
12
Is there one in specific?
13
Q
Governmental investigations. Are you
14
familiar with that one?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
Are there any other investigations other
17
than the governmental investigations that you are
18
referring to?
19
A
IBT ran some of its own investigations.
20 Nalco Chemical Company ran its own internal
21 investigation.
22
Q
Any other investigations?
23
A
Not that I am aware of.
24
Q
What was the nature of the governmental
IN R F A
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1
investigation of IBT?
2
A
There were various phases of the
3
governmental investigation by various governmental
4 agencies, and they were all criminal in nature.
5
Q
What do the investigations involve? I'm
6
just talking about the governmental investigation of
7
IBT.
8
A
I'm not sure I know what you mean by what
9
did they involve.
10
Q
When did they first begin?
11
A
To the best of my knowledge, April of 1976.
12
Q
How did the investigation come about?
13
A
I have no idea.
14
Q
Are you familiar with what the investigation
15
consisted of or what was being investigated?
16
A
The government was investigating work that
17
Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories had done.
18
Q
On all of the studies or just a few of the
19 studies?
20
A
They subpoenaed millions of pages of
21
documents and were looking at many studies.
22
Q
Are you familiar with the extent of that
23 investigation?
24
A
Other than the investigation was very large
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1
and covered many studies, I can't tell you exactly
2
at this time.
3
Q
How did you become knowledgeable about the
4
extent that you gave us just a few minutes aao? In
5
other words, that there were several studies involved.
6
A
By the number of different studies and
7
documents that the government discussed with me.
8
Q
So the government discussed these documents
9
with you?
10
A
They discussed the studies with me and had
11
me examine documents from many studies.
12
Q
When was that?
13
A
Between 1979 and 1981 and continuing in
14
through the criminal trial.
15
Q
So you assisted the government then in
16
their investigation of IBT during this 1979 time
17
period to 1981?
18
A
I'm not sure that you can characterize
19
cooperating with the government investigators as
20
assisting them in their work.
21
Q
Were you paid?
22
A
I received statutory witness fees and
23
subsistence allowances for the time that I worked
24
with them, yes.
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1
Q
2
A
3
Q
4
5
sort?
6
A
7
Q
You received money from them? I received the statutory --
understand what you have already told me. You received cash money or check of some
The fees were money, yes. Were you personally investigated by the
government in connection with your involvement with
9
the studies out at IBT?
10
A
I wouldn't know. You'd have to ask the
11
government that.
12
Q
You didn't feel that the government was
13
investigating you at all?
14
A
Certainly they were. I was involved with
15
the 305 hearing notice.
16
Q
Did the government ever tell you they were
17
investigating you?
18
A
The 305 hearing notice
well, let me
19 strike that.
20
They were investigating Bio-Test and the
21 people involved with a number of the studies, which
22 included myself.
23
As far as a personal investigation, what do
24
you mean by investigation?
WI ilk
( Wogs, cRosEngvtg and associates, ilnc. aieciyo, girinois (312)782-8087
MONSPCB0019102
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1
Q
Well, you have given me a very broad
2 definition of personal knowledge.
3 I'm just asking you based on that broad
4 definition of personal knowledge whether you learned
5 at the time that the government first started their
6 investigation or subsequently whether in fact you
7
were being investigated at one point in time?
8
A
The fact that the government issued a 305
9
hearing notice is indicative that an investigation
10 is going on.
11
Q
Did any governmental employee tell you that
12
you were being investigated or had been?
13
A
I'm not sure I have the -- that I understand
14
your question fully enough to answer it.
15
MR. JONES: Read it back.
16
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
17
the reporter as requested.)
18
BY THE WITNESS:
19
A
Had been what?
20
BY MR. JONES:
21
Q
22 we?
We were talking about investigating, weren't
23
MR. POHL: Personally?
24
MR. JONES: Certainly.
MILVEIA ( WoffE, cRolentElg and cAllociatel, il nc.
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MONSPCB0019103
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1 BY THE WITNESS:
2
A
Yes, they told me that I was being
3 investigated after I had resolved the 305 hearing
4 stuff and received a grant of immunity.
5 BY MR. JONES:
6
Q
When was the first time that you talked
7 with the government in connection with the IBT
8 investigation?
9
A
The first time that I talked to the
10
government, I didn't know the extent of an
11
investigation. The 305 hearing indicates that there
12
may have been one going on. And I would imagine that
13
at the time of my 305 hearing, that was the first time
14
I did talk to any government agents that had been at
15
the laboratory before that time and before my
16
employment ended there.
17
Q
I don't know if I understand your answer.
18
Are you saying the first time you spoke
19
with any governmental official was at the 305 hearing?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
When was the 305 hearing?
22
A
December of 1977.
23
Q
What was the subject of the 305 hearing?
24
A
They discussed my involvement with several
IA %Vi a
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MONSPCB0019104
16O
1
studies that the FDA was looking at.
2
Q
How long did you testify at the 305 hearing?
3
A
Two or three hours.
4
Q
Now, when you said earlier in your
5
deposition that you had been deposed, do you
6
remember when that deposition was? You may have told
7
me. I can' t remember.
8
A
I think it was in 1978.
9
Q
At that deposition, did you testify
10
concerning the Naprosyn study?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
What was the subject of your testimony
13
there, to the extent that you can remember?
14
A
I took the Fifth Amendment.
15
Q
Why did you take the Fifth Amendment?
16
A
Because my lawyers recommended that I take
17
the Fifth Amendment at that point in time.
18
Q
Were you concerned that possibly you might
19
be indicted?
20
A
No, I was not.
21
Q
Was your lawyer concerned that you might
22
be indicted?
23
A
I don't know what their concerns were.
24
Q
Is there any reason for you to take the
( WO[IE, CROJErlgET.43 and c:45.1.oeLatEi, egicago, grrinciii (312) 782-8087
-
MONSPCB0019105
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1
Fifth if there is no concern for indictment?
2
A
The lawyers told me that -- recommended
3
that I take the Fifth Amendment because the Justice
4
Department had not completed their investigation at
5
the time of the deposition.
6
Q
Your lawyers told you that?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
When did the government complete their
9
investigation?
10
A
I don't know.
11
Q
How far was it past the deposition date that
12
the government completed their investigation?
13
A
The aovernment didn't issue indictments
14
until 19 81.
15
Q
You said that the government was
16
investigating you, and the reason that you knew it
17
was because of the 305 hearing.
18
A
I don't believe I said the government was
19
investigating me. I said I was involved with a 305
20
hearing, and that that would indicate a possible
21
investigation.
22
Q
But later I believe you said that the
23
government in fact told you or some people with the
24
government told you that you were being investigated.
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1
A
I'm not sure I said that without going back
2 to the record.
3
Q
There is no need. If it's wrong, tell me
4 it's wrong.
5
A
I'm not sure I said that.
6
Q
Well, then the question is: Did a
7
governmental employee tell you that you were being
8
investigated?
9
A
Specifically, no.
10
Q
Are you familiar then with the results of
11
that investigation?
12
A
Which one?
13
Q
The governmental investigation, the one that
14
we have been talking about for the last 15 or 20
15
minutes.
16
A
We have been talking about several different
17
phases of investigation that have involved IBT, and
18
I wanted you to be specific before I answered a
19
general question.
20
Q
I thought we were talking about the same
21
thing.
22
Tell me the phases you were referring to.
23
A
We referred to an internal IBT
24 investigation. We referred to a Nalco investigation,
WIN&
( 111/0ffE, GROlErltET.4 and c"fisociatEl, gne.
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163
1
and then we were talking about the government
2 investigation of IBT in general, and you were talking
3
about the government's investigation of me in
4 particular. I was not clear which investigation you
5
were talking about.
6
Q
I am talking about the governmental
7
investigation that produced the indictments. That's
8
the investigation that I am talking about now and have
9
been talking about.
10
Have you been talking about something
11
different?
12
A
I just repeated what various ones of
13
investigation we have been discussing, so I wasn't --
14
Q
I am talking about within the last 20
15
minutes.
16
A
In the last 20 minutes we have talked about
17
all five of those areas.
18
MR. POHL: Just let him ask his next question.
19
He will tell you which investigation he is talking
20 about,
21 BY MR. JONES:
22
Q
Did a criminal trial subsequently take
23 place as a result of those indictments in 1981?
24
A
Yes, it did.
WL"IA (Wofie, ..Rolente.r.g and cAlociatel, gne.
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MONSPCB0019108
1,,,164
1
Q
How long did that trial last?
2
A
Approximately eight months.
3
Q
And you testified at that trial?
4
A
Yes, I did.
5
Q
What studies were the subject of that
6
trial?
7
A
Study on Naprosyn, a study on TCC and a
8
study on Sencor and Nemacur.
9
Q
Did the governmental investigation include
10
all of the studies of IBT, or was it just the
11
government reviewed those four studies?
12
MR. POHL: Objection, asked and answered many
13
times. He said they investigated many things. He
14
couldn't tell you how many.
15
BY THE WITNESS:
16
A
The government investigated many studies.
17
BY MR. JONES:
18
Q
Were the Aroclor studies one of those
19
studies that they investigated?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
Was that also -- well, were the Aroclor
studies in the Grand Jury proceedings?
23
A
I wouldn't know. I was not privy to it
24
other than my own testimony in front of the Grand Jury.
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MONSPCB0019109
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1
Q
Did you testify to the Grand Jury concerning
2
Aroclor studies?
3
A
No.
4
Q
Did anybody ever tell you what the
5
proceedings of the Grand Jury consisted of in reaard
6
to Aroclor studies?
7
A
In regard to Aroclor studies, no.
8
Q
You have no personal knowledge, as you have
9
defined that term, that Aroclor studies were the
10
subject of a Grand Jury investigation?
11
A
I don't know what the Grand Jury
12
investigation entailed. I only know what I spoke to
13
them about.
14
Q
Again, that wasn't my question.
15
Read it back.
16
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
17
the reporter as requested.)
18
BY THE WITNESS;
19
A
I'm not sure how to answer it any
20
differently than I did. I did not -- as I answered
21 before, I did not discuss Aroclor in front of the
22
Grand Jury.
23
BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Did anyone tell you that Aroclors were
( WOrfE, GRO6,ErlgEtg caul Sii.s.ociAatEl, gric 6 74icap, gfrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019110
166
1
discussed in the Grand Jury proceeding?
2
A
No one told me whether they were or were
3
not discussed.
4
Q
Were there any Monsanto employees testifying
5
at the Grand Jury proceedings?
6
A
I have no idea.
7
Q
Monsanto wasn't a party to the IBT trial,
8
were .they?
9
A
One of their materials was -- one of the
10
materials the IBT people were being tried on having
11
falsified information in the report.
12
Q
Monsanto was not indicted, isn't that
13
correct?
14
A
Monsanto was not on trial during this
15
criminal trial.
16
Q
Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to
17
make.
18
One of their studies, TCC, was the subject
19
of that criminal trial, is that correct?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
And the Aroclor studies were not one of
22
the studies to which charges were brought?
23
A
There were no -- the criminal trial
24
consisted of only those four materials.
`VI IA
ci/voff,
J?olz.n.gt,r..9
(A and
sloeca"
, gn.c.
aicayo, grfirzois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019111
167
1
Q
What were the allegations concerning the
2
Naprosyn study?
3
A
In the criminal trial?
4
Q
Yes, six.
5
A
That data had been falsified and that these
6
people that were indicted in the trial had submitted
7
false data to a government agency, and in doing so,
8
sending it through the mail, committed mail fraud.
9
Q
What were the allegations concerning the
10
TCC study?
11
A
I believe that there was false data in the
12
report, and that in conveying the report through the
13
United States mail, they committed mail fraud, and
14
they submitted false information to a government
15
agency.
16
Q
Same thing as the Naprosyn allegations?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
Is that also true of the Sencor?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
Aid the Nemacur?
21
A
They were charged with mail fraud and filing
22
false statements with a government agency.
23
Q
In connection with either or all of those
24
studies, did you play any part in the submitting of
NATIEIA
( Woriz, cRoszrzLEv.g an.c1 cAllocLatel, arta,
e4icayo, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019112
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false data either in the reports or to the government?,
A
I'm not quite sure how to interpret your
question.
Q
Did you have any role in the submitting of
false data to the government or falsifying it in a
report in connection -- let's take the first report,
the Naprosyn report?
A
No.
Q
What about the TCC report?
A
No.
Q
What about the Sencor report?
Yes.
What about the Nemacur report?
A
Yes.
Q
What role did you play in the Sencor
report?
A
I prepared the report, and at the time that
I prepared it I did not know that the study had run
for less time than what it had.
I also inserted at Dr. Keplinger's and
Wright's instructions data from another group of
animals to demonstrate the susceptibility of the
strain of animals to a material that caused cancer.
Q
Anything else?
cvvoriE, GRoiErigE7.9 and U1ISOCLatE1, &2c. ai.a9O, ginnois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019113
169
No.
2
Do you think that was wrong to do that?
3
At that particular time in my career at
4
Bio-Test, it did not seem wrong to add the information
5
from that group.
6
At the time that I submitted the report,
7
I was not aware that the study was run for less time
8
than it had run.
9
Q
When did you become aware of that?
10
A
About five years later.
11
Q
What time are we talking about that this
12
report was prepared?
13
A
In late 1971, early 1972.
14
Q
At that time you were a report writer?
15
A
Learning to write reports.
16
Q
And you had the study file in front of you
17
at that time?
18
A
I do not recall what all the information
19
was that I had in front of me at the time that I
20
prepared those two reports.
21
Q
Well, you said earlier that the procedure
22
fox preparing reports was to get the study file and
23
look at it?
24
A
These were different types of reports than
(Wolff, ..1?olEnge,t9 and c_iislociatzl, _One.
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MONSPCB0019114
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1
the ones we were talking about earlier.
2
Q
How are they different?
3
A
These were mouse reports, strictly
4
carcinogenic reports; and the study file contained
5
mortality records and histopath findings. There
6
were not routine body weights and blood studies done
7
in just a strictly carcinogenic study.
8
Q
And the Nemacur report, what did you do
9
there that -- what was your role in connection with
10
the presentation of false data?
11
A
The same as the Sencor report.
12
Q
What was the time period for this report?
13
A
Same time period.
14
Q
Who was the sponsor of that report?
15
Did you hear my question?
16
A
No.
17
Q
Who were the sponsors for both of those
18
reports?
19
A
Chemagro.
20
Q
Prior to the governmental investigation
21
did you undertake any steps to tell anyone about the
22
presentation of the false data in connection with
23
these two reports?
24
A
Could you read the question back, please?
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1
(WHEREUPON, the record was read by
2
the reporter as requested.)
3
BY THE WITNESS:
4
A
Yes.
5
BY MR. JONES:
6
Q
Who did you tell?
7
A
Dr. Von Druska, Ron Grecco. I told
8
Dr. Calandra. Dr. Keplinger, Jerry Kennedy, Jim
9
Plank were present.
10
And the other people that I discussed it
11
with were after the government had started their
12
investigation.
13
Q
When did you tell Dr. Von Druska?
14
A
January or February of 1972.
15
Q
When did you tell Ron Grecco?
16
A
January of 1972.
17
Q
And Dr. Calandra?
18
A
1976.
19
Q
Dr. Keplinger?
20
A
1976.
21
Q
And Kennedy and Plank, that was the same
22
meeting, right?
23
A
Yes. Plank knew we had falsified some of
24
the data, so he was aware of that also.
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1
Q
Did you tell any of the customers or did you
2
tell Chemagro at all about that?
3
A
No.
4
Q
Why not?
5
A
I was not familiar with anybody that was
6
employed at Chemagro.
7
Q
You said in part of your duties at times
8
you would correspond with customers.
9
Was that later in
10
A
Respond to customer correspondence, and that
11
was at a later point in time.
12
A lot of the time in that correspondence,
13
somebody like Dr. Keplinger or Mr. Kennedy would say
14
I need some answers to these questions and those
15
questions were part of somebody else's inquiry that
16
would go out over somebody else's name.
17
Q
Why did you tell Dr. Von Druska?
18
A
Because he came to me and asked me what the
19
problem was with the study.
20
Q
Did you think that there was a problem with
21
the study at that time?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
When did you first become aware that there
24
was a problem with the study?
WRIA
( 11VOffE, cl?osEnter.9 and c.-th_lociatei gna.
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1
A
In September or October of 1971.
2
Q
Why did you think that there was a problem
3
with the study?
4
A
I didn't think there was a problem with the
5
study. I knew that the final blood and urine data
6
had not been collected, and I took the information to
7
my supervisor, Paul Wright, and informed him of such.
8
Q
Why did you tell Ron Grecco?
9
A
Because he came and asked me about some
10
inconsistencies in the study and if I knew why they
11
were there.
12
Q
Why did you tell Dr. Calandra in '76?
13
Why did you wait so long?
14
A
I was under the impression in 1972 that
15
Dr. Keplinger and Dr. Calandra both had been informed
16
of the falsified data.
17
Q
Who told you that?
18
A
Dr. Von Druska and Ron Grecco.
19
Q
How did they know?
20
A
Dr. Von Druska along with Dr. Gordon
21 supposedly talked directly to Dr. Keplinger about
22
the problem.
23
Q
How do you know that?
24
A
Dr. Von Druska told me.
VILVIMA (1/Voqi, cRosEngvtg and J1
,
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MONSPCB0019118
174
1
Q
Why didn't you go ahead and talk with
2
Dr. Calandra?
3
A
At that point in time, Dr. Calandra was
4
the deity that was the head of the company.
5
Q
Why didn't you go back to Dr. Keplinger
6
about it?
7
A
Because it was my understanding that he was
8
aware of the problem. He never asked to talk to me
9
about it.
10
Q
You got that information from
11
Dr. Von Druska?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
Who got that information from Dr. Gordon?
14
A
No, he was present at the meeting when
15
Dr. Keplinger was told.
16
Q
What meeting was that?
17
A
It was a meeting between Dr. Von Druska and
18
Dr. Gordon and Dr. Keplinger.
19
Q
When did that meeting take place?
20
A
In January or February of 1972.
21
Q
Mr. Smith, I'd like to show you a document
22
that has SCM 022482 through SCM 022570 and ask if you
23
can identify that.
24
MYRA (1vvoLfE, . ..A3oPlEntz7.9 and cAliociatzl, LJnc.
6 7 icago, gitinoil (312)782-8087
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175
1
(WHEREUPON, the document was tendered
2
to the witness.)
3
BY THE WITNESS:
4
A
Yes.
5
BY NR. JONES:
6
Q
What is that? Can you identify it?
7
A
It is a copy of some stage of the final
8
report for the two-year oral toxicity study with
9
Aroclor 1242 in albino rats.
10
Q
You say "some stage."
11
What do you mean by that?
12
A
I am aware that several different replacement
13
pages were sent out regarding the summary and the
14
liver findings.
15
Q
How do you know that there were any pages
16
replaced on that report?
17
A
I'm just saying what I said was it's some
18
form. I don't know if pages have been replaced in
19
this particular report that you are showing me.
20
I said that I was aware that there were
21
revisions to the report and changes made to the
22
summary and the histopathologic findings as a result
23
of the government investigation.
24
Q
What period are you talking about now?
IlaVt a141 ( Wolff, cRosErzgE19 and c slociatEi. gne.
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MR. POHL: You asked him when the changes were 2 'made or when he learned that the changes were made?
3
BY THE WITNESS:
4
A
How were the changes made?
5
BY MR. JONES:
6
Q
First of all, what changes were made?
7
A
I am saying that -
8
Q
You are saying changes were made to the
9
two-year oral toxicity study concerning Aroclor 1242,
10
that report that you have in front of you.
11
A
What I'm saying is that there were changes
12
made to some of the Aroclor reports.
13
Q
I want to be specific.
14
A
I can't tell you which one of the Aroclor
15
reports you are showing me, whether it is the
16
original one that was submitted or one where all of
17
the changes were included.
18
I am saying that there were a number of
19
changes that were made during a number of years.
20
Q
What year were the changes made that you
21
are referring to?
22
A
There were changes made to the Aroclor
23
reports through the mid-'70s.
24
Q
So you are saying there were changes then,
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1
say at least by 1975, to that original report that
2
you have before you and that-you--originally drafted? -
3
A
I don't have an original report before me.
4
I have a copy of -- one of the copies, and I'm saying
5
that without seeing all of them, I don't know which,
6
if any, revisions had been made to this particular
7
material.
8
I know that there were revisions made on
9
some, if not all, of them.
10
Q
How do you know that?
11
A
As a result of the government's
12
investigation --
13
Q
Someone from the government told you that?
14
A
No.
15
MR. POHL: Let him finish his answer.
16
BY MR. JONES:
17
Q
Take all the time that you want.
18
Did I step on your_ answer?
19
A
A little bit. As a result of the
20
government's investigation, they questioned me about
21
this -- about the Aroclor studies, and we went through
22
a lot of the documents.
23
So I am aware there were changes that were
24
made and additional work done at a time after I had
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1
signed reports, and this is an incomplete -- I can't
2
answer a lot of questions about it because to my
3
knowledge, at least if not on this one, on several
4
of the other Aroclors, which were all done under the
5
same study number, there were changes and revisions
6
made over a period of time that I did not sian off
7
on. And without having the complete file here, I
8
can't tell you exactly which one of the reports this
9
is.
10
I don't know if this was the original one
11
that was sent out or one that has many revisions in
12
it.
13
Q
You learned this information from the
14
government showing you documents; that's how you
15
learned of these revisions?
16
A
I learned of it through examining the study
17
records as part of the government investigation where
18
they were discussing the study with me and going
19
through the study records with me.
20
Q
Study records pertaining to Aroclor 1242?
21
A
I'm talking about the study records for
22
37298, which included the Aroclor 1242, 1254 and 1260.
23
All three of those materials were done under one
24
study number.
1117.1iMA Wolff, cRolEntvtg and did.d.oci.atEs, gnc.
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1
Q
I want to try to clear this up with you.
2
The document that you have before you that
3
begins SCM 022482, is that a copy of the final report
4
that went out in 1971?
5
A
I'm telling you I do not know without
6
examining further records.
7
MR. POHL: If you don't know, tell him you don't
8
know.
9
MR. JONES: That's all I want to know. If you
10
don't know, just tell me. I don't want you to
11
speculate.
12
MR. POHL: Unless he asks you to.
13
BY MR. JONES:
14
Q
What records would you look at to determine
15
whether that is a copy of a final report?
16
A
I'd have to see if there was a copy label or
17
indicated as the original final report. I'd have to
18
look in the project center file to see what revised
19 pages may have been sent out to be replaced in the
20 original report over the period of time.
21
Q
So you don't have any personal knowledge
22 that the final or the original final two-year oral
23
toxicity report concerning Aroclor 1242 was revised
24 other than what you looked at in the records?
WRIA (WoffE,
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1
A
The records that I saw showed that many of
2
the Aroclor reports were revised at a later point in
3
time. I cannot tell you specifically what this
4
report is without seeing additional records.
5
Q
Again, my point is -- I want you to pay
6
attention to my question and only my question.
7
My question was: Is the only way that you
8
know that the original two-year oral toxicity studies
9
for Aroclors 1242, 1254 and 1260 were revised or
10
changed was as a result of your review of documents
11
during the time that the government investigation was
12
started?
13
A
That is correct. I was unaware of changes
14
in the reports in general. And specifically as far
15
as Aroclor 1242 is, without seeing the records again,
16
I can't answer whether that was revised or not without
17
seeing additional records.
18
Q
Because you were not involved in any --
19
you personally were not involved in the revision of
20
any of the original reports, were you?
21
A
I was not personally involved in the
22
revisions of the Aroclor reports that occurred during
23
the '70s. Whether the 1242 report was revised or not,
24
without seeing additional records, I can't answer that.
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1
Q
Would you turn to the signature page of
2
that document that you havo before you there.
3
Again, that's Page SCM 022485.
4
Is that your signature on the first
5
signature line, I believe?
6
A
Being a Xeroxed copy, it does appear to be
7
my signature on that page.
8
Q
Did you sign any subsequent revisions?
9
A
No, I did not.
10
Q
So is it safe to assume then at that point
11
that the document that you have before you there is a
12
copy of your original two-year oral toxicity study?
13
A
No, it's not safe to assume that. The
14
standard procedure when revisions were made were to
15
make revisions to the report and cut and tape the
16
signature page from the original report, Xerox it,
17
and the person -- all the people involved with
18
signing the original report did not go through and
19
sign off again on any subsequent revisions.
20
MR. JONES: I'd object to the responsiveness
21
of that answer.
22
MR. POHL: I think it's responsive.
23
BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Mr. Smith, I want you to assume for a
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1
moment, if you would, that that is the original
2
kroclor 1242 two-year oral toxicity study; that
3
that's the original there.
4
Can you tell me what you believe to have
5
been wrong with that document? Just assume that that
6
is the document with no revisions to it that you
7
referred to earlier. What is wrong with that
8
document? What is improper?
9
A
This whole thing or this particular page?
10
Q
I am talking about the entire document.
11
You said there were some improprieties in
12
connection with those studies.
13
I want to know what improprieties you are
14
talking about. If you could show me on that report,
15
I'd like to see it.
16
MR. POHL: Let me just for the record -- go
17
ahead and answer, but for the record I'm going to
18
object to the question. I think it's more than one
19
question, and he didn't state that there were --
20 that the fact of the impropriety was written in any
21
document.
22
He talked about having personal knowledge
23
of improprieties during the food consumption and body
24
weight of the animals. He never said that was written
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1
down in any document.
2
BY MR. JONES:
3
Q
Doctor, you said there was some data that
4
was falsified?
5
A
I'm not a doctor.
6
Q
I am sorry. Excuse me.
7
Could you tell me what the improprieties
8
were? Maybe that's the best way to start.
9
Tell me what the improprieties were in
10
connection with these two-year oral toxicity studies?
11
A
I'm not quite sure what I know -- if I
12
understand what you mean by "improprieties" other
13
than, as I stated before, there is falsified data
14
that occurs in these reports.
15
Q
That's what I want to determine.
16
What is the falsified data? Can you show
17
me on the report itself what is false?
18
A
There is a lot of body weight data that is
19
false.
20
Q
Can you give me those page numbers?
21
A
Do you want the SCM numbers or the page
22
numbers of the report or both?
23
Q
SCM number would be fine.
24
A
It would entail the body weight and weight
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1
gain section of the report, which would include data
2
on some or all pages of SCM 022491 tlfrough SCM 022494.
3
Q
Any other false data on that report?
4
A
Without croing back to the actual study
5
records, the departmental study records, I cannot
6
specifically give you falsified data.
7
The food consumption data is -- probably
8
has some falsified data in it, and without further
9
examining the study records --
10
MR. POHL: I don't think he asked you the
11
specific data. He just said what pages in the report
12
contain those sections.
13
BY THE WITNESS:
14
A
In general, Pacres SCM 022495 through SCM
15
022497 may contain some falsified data.
16
Q
Is there any other falsified data in that
17
report other than the food consumption data and the
18 body weight data?
19
A
Pages SCM 022498 and 499 may contain some
20 falsified data.
21
Q
What does that involve?
22
A
Mortality and reactions. Specifically the
23 mortality data.
24
Q
Anything else?
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1
A
Without specifically examining histopath
2 log sheets, the actual length of the study may be
3 less than what was reported.
4
Q
The what?
5
A
The actual length of the study may be less
6
than what was reported.
7
Q
Why do you have any reason to believe that?
8
A
Believe what?
9
Q
Believe that the actual length of the report
10
or the study was cut short.
11
A
Because I believe that I remember seeing
12
that during the government investigation, and it was a
13
general trend in studies that were completed at the
14
same time this study was completed.
15
Q
So of your own personal knowledge, sitting
16
here _today you can't say that the study that you have
17
got before you there was cut short?
18
A
I think that what I said before was that of
19
my own personal knowledge, I could not answer for sure
20
whether this study was cut short or not without
21 examining additional documents from the records.
22
Q
Those records would be the histopath log
23 sheets?
24
A
Yes.
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1
Q
Any other records you'd look at?
2
A
For the length of the study, 'look at
3
possibly the -- if the dates of final body weights
4
Q
I am just talking about the length of the
5
study now.
6
MR. POHL: He hasn't finished his answer.
7
BY THE WITNESS:
8
A
You asked me what I would look at. The
9
date of the final body weight would indicate when the
10
study was terminated and would give you some
11
indication, based on the records of when it started
12
and when it terminated, of how lona the study ran.
13
Q
What would be the name of that particular
14
record?
15
A
Final body weights.
16
Q
Would you look at anything else?
17
A
The dates, if any, on the organ weight
18
sheets and whether or not they were the original
19
organ weight sheets or if they happened to have been
20 copied over.
21
Q
Would you look at anything else?
22
A
Those areas would pretty well determine
23 what the length of the study was.
24
Q
Concerning the mortality data that you
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referred to a moment ago, what's your basis for
saying that that's false?
A
My recollection is that some of the
mortality data was nonexistent. There are animals
that disappeared from the study, and there is no
record of them having been disposed of by the animal
room technician or examined and either tissues taken
or disposed of by the necropsy lab; and therefore,
the actual date of when the animal by month left the
study is wrong.
Q
What is your basis for saying that an
animal disappeared from the study? Are you looking
at records again?
A
Yes.
Q
You have no personal knowledge of that
any actual observation of that?
A
Without examining the records again or
having them in front of me to show you, I cannot
recite to you specific animals in the Aroclor 1242
study that disappeared and had mortality data
falsified or this falSified or that falsified.
It would require going through with you all
of the available study data.
Q
So you would just look at the data. You
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188
1
don't know if the data is correct or not, though, I
2
guess is what I'm asking.
3
How do you know that it's incorrect?
4
A
I don't know that the data is incorrect.
5
I am assuming that what is there is correct.
6
It's what isn't there that is where the
7
data is missing, and it was falsified to fill in the
8
gaps.
9
Q
What was missing in connection with the
10
mortality data that you are referring to in
11
connection with this report?
12
A
No records of the animals' death.
13
Q
But what are we talking about? You are
14
saying you don't know the specific dates or the
15
specific animals.
16
A
Without sitting down and going through the
17
study data with you, I cannot give you specific dates
18
and animals.
19
Q
What about the food consumption data, what
20
makes you believe that that's falsified?
21
A
The fact that not all the data is there
22
for -- all the data that's reported in the report and
23
knowing that the person collecting the food
24
consumption data did not always collect it.
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1
Q
So you are saying some of the data is
2
missing on -- food consumption data and the mortality,
3
data --
4
A
And that the --
5
Q
Therefore, you think that it's been
6
falsified?
7
A
The data wasn't collected, and the
8
information exists in the report. It exists nowhere
9
else.
10
I know for a fact that the body weight
11
data was falsified.
12
Q
How do you know that?
13
A
I know that because under Paul Wright's
14
instruction, I plotted out the body weight data that
15
we had in the department and all of the data that we
16
could find in the storage areas for the department.
17
Then he plotted out and gave me body weight numbers
18
to put into the report for all the spaces that we had
19
no records for.
20
MR. POHL: This was whom?
21
THE WITNESS: Paul Wright.
22
BY MR. JONES:
23
Q
Do you know where he came up with those
24
numbers?
( Woffz, cRosEntvt9 and c:1116.ociatzl, _One. C4icayo, grfinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019134
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1
A
Out of his head.
2
Q
Did he tell you that'?
3
A
I watched him.
4
Q
You watched him just pull it out of his
5
head?
6
A
He had me plot some numbers on some graphs
7
for him, and he looked at those graphs and picked
8
numbers out to fill in the spaces.
9
Q
When did this meeting take place?
10
A
It occurred sometime in 19 71, September,
11
October.
12
Q
Was anyone else present?
13
A
No.
14
Q
Where did this meeting take place?
15
A
In Dr. Wright's office.
16
Q
Did you talk to him about doing that? Did
17
you ask him why he did that or did you question him in
18
any way?
19
A
I had questioned him on the topic of
20 extrapolating body weight data and making up
21 histopathology data and making up food consumption
22
data and making up mortality data, and his response
23
was that as long as you had a starting and ending
24
point, it doesn't matter what you have got in the
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middle.
Have we then covered all of the areas --
A
I didn't hear the start of what you said.
Q
Have we covered now all the areas that you
maintained that the Aroclor 1242 two-year oral
toxicity study that you have before you there has
been falsified or some impropriety has occurred?
A
Without seeing all of the records for the
study and all of the revised pages for each one of
the reports that was under Study Number B7298, I am
aware that there were changes made in the conclusions
of the report and that the pathologists involved
changed their conclusions under pressure from
Monsanto.
Q
How do you know that?
A
Through the investigation where I was shown
the records when the government was investigating the
criminal case.
Q
How do you know that Monsanto pressured
anybody at IBT for changes?
A
It's in letters and memos and meetings that
I saw in the records.
Q
So in other words, it's just a document
review on your part; there is no other knowledge other
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1
than what you read?
2
A
When I see a letter requesting an
3
interpretive change in the report, and these people
4
have changed it; that I am aware that people from
5
Monsanto were on the IBT premises and dictated to
6
typists changes in the reports. To me, that's
7
demanding changes in the report.
8
Q
You said that there were Monsanto people
9
there in the offices of IBT dictating changes to
10
typists?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
And you cbserved that?
13
A
No. That's based on the testimony of
14
somebody that did observe it.
15
Q
Who was that?
16
A
Dr. Gordon.
17
Q
Dr. Gordon told you that?
18
A
No. I said it was based on his testimony.
19
Q
Testimony for what?
20
A
That that occurred.
21
Q
In what proceeding?
22
A
During the investigation for the criminal
23
trial.
24
Q
What proceeding are we talking about?
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1
305 proceeding? Grand Jury proceeding? Are we
talking about his testimony at the IBT trial?
3
A
I thought I had indicated several times
4
that we were discussing the government investigation
5
of the criminal charges.
6
Q
You said that was his testimony.
7
Are you not saying it was any type of
8
court proceeding?
9
A
I am not sure whether it was an official
10
court proceeding, a deposition, an investigational
11
meeting, a statement to the U.S. Attorney or the
12
Grand Jury. I don't know.
13
Q
You just saw some sort of a transcript?
14
Is that what you are saying?
15
A
I saw some sort of a record of his testifying
16
that Paul Wright had dictated changes for the reports
17
to secretaries at IBT and waited for those changes
18
to be typed and inserted in the report.
19
Q
That's the total basis then of your
20 knowledge or the statement that Monsanto was dictating
21 changes to reports to IBT?
22
A
No, sir. I. have had personal experience.
23 Paul Wright requested that a rough draft of all
24
Monsanto reports be sent to him prior to a final draft
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1
of the report being issued.
2
On several reports that I had written, he
3
called me personally to request changes in the
4
reports.
5
Q
Paul Wright was an IBT employee at the time?
6
A
No, he was a Monsanto employee at the time.
7
Paul Wright worked at Monsanto, came to
8
IBT and then went back to Monsanto. And as an
9
employee at Monsanto, after having worked at IBT, he
10
had requested changes in reports.
11
Q
What reports are you referring to?
12
A
I am referring to a rabbit teratology
13
report. At the moment, I cannot tell you the IBT
14
number or the test material.
15
There were memos regarding his request for
16
a change in the documents that I turned over to the
17
U.S. Attorney.
18
Q
I'd like to know what those are.
19
Do you remember what those documents are?
20
A
I thought we discussed earlier what I
21 turned over to them, and they were things like
22
memos, copies of rough drafts.
23
Q
Were these Aroclor studies that you were
24 referring to?
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1
A
No. You had asked me what documents I
2 turned over to the U.S. Attorney and - what documents
3
I had taken out of the company with me.
4
Q
Was this rabbit teratology report, was that
5
an Aroclor report?
6
A
I don't believe so, no.
7
Q
If we can back up a few minutes.
8
This testimony that Dr. Gordon gave, was
9
that in connection with an Aroclor product?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Do you remember which one it was?
12
A
It was in connection with the Study Number
13
B7298.
14
Q
What Aroclor is that?
15
A
The study number covers three Aroclors that
16
were tested at Bio-Test or IBT.
17
Q
Are you referring to the original reports
18
that you -- the compound that you originally worked
19
on at IBT for Monsanto?
20
A
I am referring to revisions that were made
21 to the reports on Aroclor compounds that were tested
22
under Study Number B7298.
23
Q
In connection with the rabbit teratology
24
report and your statement that Paul Wright while
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1
working for Monsanto requested changes in rough
2 drafts and all, and specifically on the rabbit
3
teratology report how did he request these changes?
4 Was it by letter? Was it by telephone or what?
5
A
In the case that I have personal experience
6
with, he requested the change by telephone, followed
7
up a couple weeks later by a letter.
8
Q
Did he call you specifically?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
When was that?
11
A
1973 or '74.
12
Q
Did a letter subsequently come then about a
13
week later, you said?
14
A
I don't know the exact time frame, but a
15
week to two weeks later.
16
Q
And the letter was written to you?
17
A
I don't believe it was addressed to me. I
18
think it was addressed to Dr. Keplinger or one of the
19
other higher managers in the company.
20
Q
What types of chancres did he request be
21
made to the draft reports?
22
A
I'm talking about -- the draft reports?
23
Q
Rabbit teratology.
24
A
He asked for a change in the interpretation
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1
of the results.
2
Q
What was the change?
3
A
He asked to change the phrasing to lesson
4
the appearance of an effect on material toxicity in
5
the study.
6
Q
What was the specific change, if you
7
remember?
8
A
Without seeing the documents, I cannot
9
quote the exact change that he made.
10
Q
Were there any other situations or occasions
11
when Paul Wright requested changes to draft reports
12
that IBT was preparing?
13
MR. POHL: While he was an employee for Monsanto
14
or before?
15
MR. JONES: Either time.
16
BY THE WITNESS:
17
A
I have no idea. I discussed the ones that I
18
was aware of.
19
BY MR. JONES:
20
Q
21
then?
So you are only aware of this one incident
22
A
That's my personal experience. I was aware
23
of him requesting changes in reports that had been
24
finalized and sent out.
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Q
What reports are those?
2
A
The Aroclor reports and the TCC reports.
3
Q
Which Aroclor report?
4
A
I am talking about the Study Number B7298.
5
Without going through the records, I cannot tell you
6
specifically which, if any one in particular, or all
7
three of them.
8
Q
That was at a time when Dr. Wright was
9
employed by IBT?
10
A
No, sir. Dr. Wright was employed at
11
Monsanto Company after having been employed at IBT.
12
Q
Do you remember about when?
13
A
I want to clarify something. I am aware of
14
Monsanto requesting changes. I do not know if
15
Dr. Wright asked for specific changes in the TCC
16
report, but someone at Monsanto did.
17
Q
Let's take them one at a time.
18
The changes to B 7298, that report, you
19
say that that occurred at what time period?
20
A
In the mid-'70s.
21
Q
And you say it was someone from Monsanto,
22 but you don't remember who it was?
23
A
No. I said that I knew from transcripts
24 that I had seen that Paul Wright had dictated some
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1
changes. There are some --
2
Q
Can I stop you right there.
3
You keep talking about different things in
4
different situations. Right now we are just talking
5
about the revisions that you maintain took place on
6
Aroclor Study B7298, and I want to focus on that and
7
maintain your focus until we go to another --
8
A
That's what I am discussing.
9
Q
Okay. Go ahead.
10
You read some transcripts?
11
A
That Paul Wright had dictated some changes
12
and waited for IBT secretaries to type said changes
13
for insertion into the report, and Dr. Levinskas had
14
requested in writing changes to the reports.
15
Q
How did you find out that Paul Wright
16
dictated changes? Was that from Dr. Gordon's
17
transcript?
18
A
That was in Dr. Gordon's testimony.
19
Q
How did you find out that Dr. Levinskas
20
requested changes?
21
A
There's copies of his requests and IBT
22
responding to that request in the study file.
23
Q
So your knowledge then is limited to the
24
correspondence or documents that you reviewed as to
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1
whether Dr. Levinskas requested revisions to B7298?
2
A
I did not -- my knowledge is that there are-
3
letters in the study file from Dr. Levinskas
4
requesting changes in the conclusions of the report.
5
Q
Do you have any knowledge other than the
6
documents about that fact?
7
A
Other than saying no --
8
Q
If no is the answer, that's what I want.
9
If there is something else, I want to know --
10
A
No. I wasn't there when he wrote the
11
letter.
12
Q
That's fine.
13
Your knowledge then is limited to what you
14
read, is that correct?
15
A
My knowledge is limited to seeing a letter
16 from Dr. Levinskas to IBT, letter from IBT back to
17
D . Levinskas indicating such changes would be made
18
and that they were enclosing corrections.
19
20
21
22
23
24
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1
Q
Are there any other incidents then where you
2 believe that Monsanto pressured IBT to make changes
3 other than what we have already discussed?
4
A
Regarding Aroclors?
5
Q
Well, let's take Aroclors.
6
A
We were discussing Aroclors, and your
7 question got very general.
8
Q
Well, is there any other instances then
9 concerning the Aroclors?
10
A
Concerning the Aroclors, none that I am
11 aware of
12
Q
Are there any other instances concerning any
13 other product of Monsanto other than Aroclors?
14
A
TCC.
15
Q
Tell me about that then.
16
MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question as
17 calling for a narrative. Too broad.
18
MR. JONES: Want me to rephrase it?
19
MR. POHL: Some of this stuff is actually becoming
20 relevant to the case. I may want to read some of this
21 to the jury. You may object to the form of the
22 question if I try to read it.
23 BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Tell me about that.
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MR. POHL: Object to the form of the question.
2 BY THE WITNESS:
3
A
There were testicular lesions in the TCC
4 study that Monsanto wanted to have reduced in severity
5 so that their product would not have to be yanked from
6 the market.
7 BY MR. JONES:
8
Q
What is the basis of that statement?
9
A
Personal knowledge of the findings in the
10 study and having personally seen the records and the
11 correspondence regarding memos and letters and
12 meetings between Monsanto and IBT in regards to the
13 testicular lesions and effect it would have if they
14 could not get a low effect level in the study and 15 consulting additional pathologists to try and find
16 someone that would not classify the finding quite as
17 severe.
18
Q
Let's take them one at a time.
19
First basis that you believe that statement
20 to be true is because your personal knowledge of the
21 findings of the study.
22
What do you mean by that?
23
A
By personally having worked on some of the
24 interim reports and because of seeing the data
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1 generated in the study regarding testicular lesions 2 and then correspondence.
3
Q
Let's take them one at a time.
4
You are saying because of your personal
5 knowledge of the findings of the study, that you knew
6 that Monsanto wanted to reduce the severity of
7 testicular lesions?
8
A
No, that's not what I said. I said because
9 of a combination of everything.
10
Q
I want to find your entire basis so that we
11 can discuss each point.
12
A
That's -- I thought we were discussing that.
13
Q
I thought we were, too, and it's very broad,
14 and I have got to understand what you are talking
15 about and your basis for that fact.
16
A
I worked on interim reports in the study.
17 worked on weighing animals, helping set the procedure
18 up, schedule it.
19
In the interim reports there were findings
20 of testicular lesions. Additional work was requested
21 to be done to try and find a no effect level.
22
I received and read copies of memos of
23 meetings between IBT personnel and Monsanto personnel
24 and between -- and letters between them also.
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1
Q
You have read letters between the two
2 companies?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
You said there were also meetings.
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
And you attended those meetings?
7
A
No, I said I read memos of the results of
8 those meetings.
9
Q
So then your knowledge would then be limited
10 to what you read concerning the meetings and the
11 correspondence between the parties?
12
A
My knowledge is based on what I read about
13 the meetings, the letters between IBT and Monsanto and
14 my having seen and read the pathologist's reports and
15 copies of their meetings with outside pathologists
16 that they were asked to meet with to see if they could
17 find a no effect level in the study.
18
It's based on the whole picture, not just one
19 of these things.
20
Q
What additional pathologists are you
21 referring to?
22
A
Monsanto requested that IBT meet with a
23 Dr. Rybellen at the University of Wisconsin in
24 Madison to have him examine the slides of the testes
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1 and get a separate opinion on what the pathologists 2 were observing.
3
Q
That's an incident where Monsanto pressured
4 IBT to change a result on the TCC study?
5
A
I didn't say that. I said that they --
6
Q
That's what I'm trying to find out.
7
What is it about your belief or the basis
8 for your belief that Monsanto pressured any changes
9 to the TCC study?
10
A
I said that they pressured a reduction in
11 the severity of the findings.
12
Q
How did they do that?
13
A
Physically talking with the people at
14 Bio-Test who were responsible for the findings.
15
Q
Were you a party to those conversations?
16
A
No.
17
Q
You read those in memos and correspondence?
18
A
Memos, letters, correspondence, transcripts
19 of testimony.
20
Q
Other than that, you have no other personal
21 knowledge other than what you have just stated?
22
A
That is correct.
23
Q
In connection with the Aroclor studies --
24 I'd like to get back to that for a minute.
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1
Let's go ahead and let you look at these
2 documents, too.
3
We have talked about the falsification of
4 data in the Aroclor report concerning 1242. That's
5 the two-year oral toxicity study.
6
Is it true that the same falsification
7 appeared in the reports concerning 1254 and 1260?
8
A
As far as the body weight data, that's the
9 same in all three reports.
10
Once again, without going back and
11 specifically examining the study records for each one
12 of the materials, in general there would probably be
13 a problem with food consumption, mortality; and some
14 of the conclusions in the report were changed.
15
Q
Those are the changes made in. 1975?
16
A
No, sir.
17
Q
I'm just talking about when -- your report
18 that you sent out in 1971.
19
A
I didn't send the report out.
20
Q
Well, IBT sent a report out?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
I am talking about that report, sir.
23
MR. POHL: Those three reports?
24
MR. JONES: Yes.
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1 BY MR. JONES:
2
-- Q
So are you saying then it's the same type
3
of falsification of data would be consistent in all
4
three reports?
5
A
The body weight data I definitely know is.
6
And without examining the actual study records, the
7
food consumption, mortality, length of study and some
8 of the conclusions.
9
Q
Are you saying the conclusions were changed
10
back in 1971?
11
A
I'm saying that during the course of time
12 for the report, the report -- I don't know which
13 report specifically that you are talking about, but
14 for these studies, the report was changed.
15
Q
When?
16
MR. POHL: He already testified before
17
BY THE WITNESS:
18
A
Mid '70s.
19
MR. POHL: Asked and answered.
20 BY MR. JONES:
21
Q
It was a simple question. Mid 1975 or
22 something like that or '71. That's what I'm wondering.
23
The change in conclusion, you are saying,
24 is in 1975?
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1
A
Yes. The changes in the conclusions were
2 done at a later date than when the original report was
3 sent to Monsanto.
4
Q
That would have been in 1975?
5
A
'74 or 75, mid 70s.
6
Q
Your based criticism for the weight data and
7 food consumption data and mortality data is that some
8 of that data was missing, and therefore had to be --
9
A
I wasn't criticizing the data. I indicated
10 that I knew body weight data had been falsified.
11
Q
Because there was not any raw data there?
12
A
The raw data was not existent.
13
Q
And the same thing for food consumption?
14
A
Without looking at the specific data, to go
15 through piece by piece -- the same type of thing
16 would have happened for the food consumption data.
17
The mortality data, you'd have to go through
18 several different records and look at where the
19 animal disappeared from the record and the fact that 20 there was no record of the animal having been found
21 dead or dying, for whatever reason, during any of the
22 things like blood collection.
23
MR. POHL: Let me interrupt you. See if this
24 will help.
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1
What Mr. Jones is getting to is that the
2 general testimony which you gave before in which you
3 just summarized now would apply equally well to all 4 Aroclor reports?
5
THE WITNESS: Yes, other than the conclusions.
6 Without going through the records, I couldn't tell you
7 whether the conclusions in all three reports have
8 changed.
9 BY MR. JONES:
10
Q
In fact, it is -- and I'm just trying to
11 find the reason that you think it falsified is
12 because there was -- there were gaps missing in the
13 weight data and that also there may have been gaps in
14 the food consumption data, and the same thing with the
15 mortality data that was missing?
16
A
I said before, I saw Paul Wright write in
17 numbers for the body weight data.
18
Q
That's true for the body weight?
19
A
I cannot tell you how he wrote in the food
20 consumption or mortality data.
21
As I testified before, I only prepared some
22 parts of the report. Mr. Plank and Dr. Wright
23 prepared other parts of the report.
24
At this date, without the original rough
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1 draft of the report that's in everybody's handwriting,
2 it would be difficult to tell who did what.
3
I worked on the body weights. Paul Wright
4 had me plot what body weight data we had. Took those
5 plots to him, and he sat there and plotted in the
6 numbers.
7
There was nothing other than the sheet of
8 paper and his pencil and what came out of his pencil
9 onto the paper. There was no data to support those
10 numbers.
11
Q
I understand that, but I want to go down to
12 the food consumption data.
13
You are saying some of that data was missing?
14
A
I am sure that it was. Without going through
15 the specific study records, I cannot show you which
16 ones were.
17
Q
I am not asking you to show me which ones
18 were missing.
19
I'm just asking did you undertake some
20 search and determine that the food consumption data
21 was missing?
22
A
Once again, I would need the study records
23
to answer your question.
24
Q
Did you undertake a search to determine
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1 whether the data was missing back in 1971 when this 2 report was being prepared?
3
A
I undertook a search to look for all of the
4 missing data in this report.
5
Q
And you determined that some of the food
6 consumption data was missing, some of the mortality
7 data was missing as a result of that search?
8
A
I am saying right now I cannot answer that
9 question without going through the study records.
10
Q
You are saying you don't know if you
11 undertook a search?
12
A
No, I am saying that I cannot answer the
13 question about the data being falsified without having
14 the study records to go through.
15
Q
I just have one more question. Then I will
16 move and get away from that. I just want to make sure
17 it's clear in my mind.
18
Are you saying then without looking at the
19 raw data, at this point that there is no way that you
20 can say here under oath that the food consumption
21 data and the mortality data was falsified?
22
A
No. What I'm saying is there is falsified
23 data in those sections, and which section of that data
24 specifically I cannot tell without having the raw data
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1 to go through.
2
Q
That was my point earlier.
3
MR. POHL: He's answered that for the whole first
4 set. That's why I asked my question. What he said
5 30 minutes ago, did he apply it to this as well. He
6 gave that same answer.
7
MR. JONES: He still hasn't answered the
8 question. I know he can't tell me the precise data
9 that was falsified.
10 BY MR. JONES:
11
Q
What I'm asking, though, is the reason that
12 you think there was falsified data was because some of 13 that food consumption data was missing?
14
A
I don't think there was falsified data.
15 I know there was falsified data in the report.
16
MR. POHL: Let me interrupt. You all are having
17 difficulty communicating.
18
What Mr. Jones is simply asking is
19 think we have covered this before -- is even though you
20 can't state specifically what item of data was
21 falsified, you know that the event occurred because
22 when you searched it, the data was nonexistent, was
23 missing; is that a fair summary of what you testified?
24
THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
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1
MR. JONES: That's all my question was.
2 BY MR. JONES:
3
Q
Is that the same thing for the mortality
4 data, that you can't say specifically what was false,
5 but you think that some of the mortality data was
6 false because some of the data was missing?
7
A
I know that there is no record of some of the
8 animals having died in the study, and for that
9 information to show up in the report, it's falsified.
10
Q
That's your basis?
11
A
Yes, the data is missing. In that particular
12 case, there is no data for death for the animals
13 listed in the records that should contain that.
14
Q
For this data that was missing in these
15 three reports, what search or what did you do to
16 undertake to try to, locate that data when you prepared
17 the report?
18
A
When I got the study file, I would look in
19 the departmental records for body weights and check in 20 all of the other ongoing studies that were started at 21 about the same time to make sure that none of the data
22 from this particular study that was missing was
23 misfiled in another file.
24
Food consumption data, once again checked the
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214
1 other studies that were ongoing that had been running 2 at approximately the same time, started within a few
3 months of when the Aroclor studies started, and make
4 sure that nothing was misfiled.
5
Then I would check in the diet room where
6 they stored the food consumption data sheets after the
7 feeders had filled them out and make sure there were 8 none that were laying around there that had not been
9 delivered to the animal department.
10
The necropsy log sheet, I would check that
11 and make sure that all pages of it were present; that
12 a page hadn't been misfiled in an adjacent study and
13 go through that.
14
There is no record of some of the animals
15 having died.
16
Q
So you then checked the various departments
17
which would have been responsible for that particular
18 raw data?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
And you did that prior to the time that you
21 wrote your report?
22
A
I did that prior to the time that the report
23 was sent to typing -- to be typed.
24
Once again, I did not prepare all the
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1 sections of the Aroclor report.
2
Q
Did you do anything other than search the
3 files? In other words, did you talk to anybody?
4
A
In the time that I had been there prior to
5 this and I had been looking for other data, it was
6 common knowledge that if it wasn't in those places, it
7 did not exist.
8
Q
I understand what you are saying there,
9 but -
10
A
Let me finish.
11
In most cases, it did not exist because the
12 data had never been collected.
13
MR. JONES: Objection. Nonresponsive.
14 BY MR. JONES:
15
Q
My question is: Did yOu talk to anybody
16 about the missing data, in other words, the people in
17 the specific departments that had generated the data.
18
A
In order to get access to the food
19 consumption data, I had to talk to the guy in charge of
20 the diet area. It was not his job to collect the data.
21
Q
Did you go and talk to anyone who was charged
22 in collecting the data and say did you do it and if
23 you did, where is it now?
24
A
I talked to the,feeder. I must have forgot
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1 that month.
2
Q
Who did you talk to?
3
A
Ray Williams.
4
Q
When did you talk to Ray Williams?
5
A
In September or October of 1971. Maybe
6 earlier.
7
Q
What did he tell you that he failed to do
8 specifically? What months and all.
9
A
He did not even -- he was not capable of
10 remembering the specific studies. He forgot food
11 consumption data for almost all the studies on
12 occasion.
13
MR. POHL: I think Robert has adopted our rule
14 of personal knowledge.
15
MR. JONES: Objection, nonresponsive.
16
I'm going to stand by whatever the rules of
17
evidence are applying to personal knowledge.
18
(WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
19
BY MR. JONES:
20
Q
When we took our short. break, Mr. Smith,
21
we were talking about your reasons for believing that
22
the data which was falsified in the Aroclor reports
23
that we have been discussing did not exist, and you
24
said that you conducted a search and you searched all
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1 of the departments where the raw data would have been 2 stored.
3
Is that a fair summary of where we stand so
4 far?
5
A
No. I looked at the department where the
6 raw data would have been stored and at the other areas
7 that might have been involved with the collection of
8 data.
9
In some cases -- in the case of the mortality
10 data, it was raw data that was stored in another
11 department that I looked at and looked through files
12 to see if it was -- if there was anything that was
13 misfiled.
14
Q
Was the organization of the files at that
15 time back in 1971 at IBT, was that that departments
16 would keep their own raw data that was generated in
17 their departments?
18
A
Your question is too general to answer.
19 There are many different files and filing setups.
20
Q
Well, let's just talk about the files
21 pertaining to the Aroclor studies.
22
Would that raw data be in the individual
23 departments that generated or recorded that data?
24
A
The raw body weight data, food consumption
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1 data, would have wound up in the animal department
2 running the study.
3
The blood data, the urine analyses data, the
4 raw data for that would have been in the clinical
5 chemistry laboratory.
6
The histopath and necropsy data would have
7 been kept in the histopath and necropsy areas.
8
Q
Who had access to the raw data in those
9 particular departments?
10
A
Specifically I don't know who did or did not.
11
Q
Could anyone --
12
A
Have access to those things? If I was in
13 there looking at something that I was working on, I
14 would have access to those files. But in general,
15 somebody from the metabolism department, if they
16 didn't have some reason for the information, could not
17 gain access to the raw data of the clinical pathology
18 department or the human studies department.
19
Q
So not everybody had access then to the
20 particular departmental files other than the people 21 that worked in the files themselves or someone like a 22 report writer like you that needed to use that
23 information?
24
A
If you are talking about access as far as
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1 the data being locked up, it was not locked up.
2
People generally had access if they had
3 reason to be involved with -- in some way with the
4
study.
5
Q
So people from time to time would go in and
6 look at the raw data in the various departments, like
7
yourself?
8
A
When the service labs would have been sent --
9
Q
That's just a yes or no question.
10
A
It's not a yes or no answer. That's the
11 problem.
12
The service departments would send copies of
13 what they generated. In those cases where the stuff
14 was lost in the interoffice mail for whatever reason,
15 or it came to, like the group. leader's office and he
16 didn't deliver it to the -- to a technician - to file
17 into the study file in the department, and there was
18 no data in there, there were places for - some of that
19 data to be found.
20
The data that the animal department
21 generated itself, such as body weights and food 22 consumption data, in my personal experience working 23 there if the data was not in the study file, it was 24 not collected; and I would look in various areas where
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there was a possibility that the data could have been
side-tracked.
Q
I appreciate your telling me that, but again,
it wasn't my question. My question was: Could anyone go in and have
access and look at the raw data in the particular
departments?
A
Anyone that was -- had some reason to be
involved with the study could. The sponsor could come in and look at the
raw data. A sponsor could come in and look at the animals in the animal room if they wanted.
A person in another lab that was working on, say, the microscopic pathology stuff could come in and look at the raw body weight data in the animal
department. It wasn't like you'd open the door to the
street and somebody off the street could come in and
look around.
Q
Pretty much anyone in IBT's employment could
come in and review the data if they needed to?
A
That's not what I said.
Q
That's my question.
Could anybody from IBT, an employee, go in
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1 and take a look at the data?
2
A
And my answer to that question is an employee
3 that had reason to be involved with the study for some
4 reason could look at the data. It wasn't limited to
5 like nobody but Dr. Gordon or nobody but Dr. Calandra 6 or nobody but so and so could. It would have to be
7 somebody who had reason to be involved in the study.
8
It wasn't like the janitors could come in
9 and look at it.
10
Q
Was there any rule you could not remove it
11 from the departmental files?
12
A
There were no written rules about anything.
13
Q
Did you ever have occasion or observe an
14 occasion where someone would take the raw data out of
15
the files and take it to a desk or somewhere else to
16 work on?
17
A
Certainly.
18
Q
Was there any checkout procedure, for
19 instance with a card that you had to sign if you were
20 going to check out any of the raw data?
21
A
No.
22
Q
We talked a little bit about whether you had
23
talked with any individuals who were responsible for
24
gathering the data and recording the data on the
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22B
1 Aroclor studies.
You said that one gentleman that you talked
3 to was Ray Williams.
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
And you asked Mr. Williams where the data
6 was that he was working on, the body weight data.
7
A
Food consumption.
8
Q
Was there anyone else that you talked to or
9 inquired about as to where the missing data was?
10
A
The missing data -- in general are we
11 speaking about all the missing data or just the food
12 consumption data?
13
Q
We are talking about the food consumption
14 data in connection with the Aroclor studies.
15
A
When Ray Williams collected food consumption
16 data, he would take it to the diet preparation area, 17 and the person in charge of the diet preparation area
18 would send it on to the animal department office.
19
I talked to him about looking through the
20 food consumption records that he had in his diet
21 preparation area that he hadn't sent to the animal
22
department yet to make sure none of the Aroclor data
23 was still in the diet preparation area.
24
Q
Did he indicate whether the data was never
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1 recorded in your conversation?
2
A
That wasn't my conversation with him. My
3 conversation was whether or not I could look in the 4 area that he stored those records to see if there was
5 any of the Aroclor data still in that area.
6
Q
Again, my question is -- you told me that
7 about three times. I'm not interested in that.
8
What I'm interested in is everyone that you
9 talked to such as those people who would be in charge 10 of gathering data, gathering the food consumption data, 11 whether you talked to those people to determine whether
12 it was done.
13
One such person you said was Ray Williams.
14 Are there any other people?
15
A
He was the feeder. When he didn't show up
16 to work --
17
Q
We can shorten the deposition a lot more.
18 Just listen to my question.
19
Were there any other people other than Ray
20 Williams that you talked to?
21
MR. NIELSEN: About what?
22
THE WITNESS: About what?
23 BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Well, what we have been talking about for
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1 the last few minutes.
,2
A
That's what I answered; and you told me I'm
3 not being responsive.
4
Q
There was a person in a department that was
5 in charge of gathering or recording the data that you
6 talked to concerning the food consumption data and
7 asked them whether it had been recorded.
8
That's the person I want to know about.
9
A
I told you that. I gave you that answer.
10 I talked to Ray Williams. He did not remember
11 collecting it.
12
Q
Was there anyone other than Ray Williams?
13
A
Ray Williams, as I said before, was --
14
Q
Just yes or no.
15
A
I am telling you Ray Williams for collecting
16 the food consumption data.
17
When he didn't show up to work, which was
18 very frequent, the technician would have to show that
19 the animals were fed. Whether they always checked to 20 see if food consumption was supposed to be done that 21 particular week or not is not part of the answer, but 22 then you asked me about, the diet preparation area and
23 who I talked to.
24
Q
Was there anyone other than -- is it safe to
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1 say that the only person that you talked to concerning 2 the food consumption data as to whether it had been
3 gathered or recorded was Ray Williams?
4
A
No, that's not what I answered.
5
I said Ray Williams is the person to collect
6 it. The data would be stored in the diet preparation
7 area. I talked to the person there about getting 8 access to his storage area where those reports would
9 be stored and examined that.
10
He was not responsible for seeing that Ray
11 Williams collected data or that it was or was not
12 collected. It was a place where the data could have
13 . been.
14
Q
Did you ask him if he had seen the missing
15 data that you were looking for?
16
A
No. I asked him if I could go through his
17 records and look for Aroclor data that I did not have
18 in the study file.
19
Q
What is this man's name?
20
A
Ed Oscarson.
21
Q
Do you know where he, lives?
22
A
No, I don't.
23
Q
Is there anyone other than Ed Oscarson and
24 Ray Williams that you talked to concerning the missing
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1 food consumption data?
2
A
Jim Plank and Paul Wright.
3
Q
Again, I want to limit it to people who are
4 responsible in the departments for recording that
5 information.
6
A
Jim Plank was the group leader in charge of
7 the department. Paul Wright was his immediate
8 supervisor. So they are ultimately responsible for 9 the data that is collected in the departments that they
10 oversee.
11
Q
When did you talk to Jim Plank? In September
12 of '71 also, all of these conversations?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
What did you ask him? What did you tell him?
15
A
About the food consumption data?
16
Q
Yes.
17
A
I told him the data couldn't be found and
18 it appeared in the final report.
19
Q
Again, the whole line of questioning that
20 we are talking about was your search. We are trying
21 to determine your search for, locating the missing
22 data.
23
You said that you searched the study file
24 and then you went and looked in the file in the
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1 individual departments.
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
And you talked with Ray Williams, and you
4 talked with Ed Oscarson.
5
At that time frame, what else did you do?
6 Is there anyone else that you talked to?
7
A
Again, yes. I talked to Jim Plank, and I
8 talked to Paul Wright and indicated that I could not
9 find any of the food consumption records.
10
Q
Did you ask them where they were located?
11
A
Mr. Plank asked me if I had searched the
12 department records, if I had searched the diet room
13 records, and I said yes, and that was fine.
14
They wouldn't have been kept anywhere else
15 in the company.
16
Q
What did you ask Paul Wright?
17
A
I didn't ask Paul Wright. He was present
18 when I informed Mr. Plank about the food consumption
19
data.
20
Q
Where did this conversation take place?
21
A
In the office with Mr. Plank and Dr. Wright.
22
Q
Did you talk with anyone else in connection
23
with your search for attempting to locate the missing
24
data?
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1
A
Talked to Mike Black.
2
Q
When did you talk to Mr. Black?
3
A
The same time frame, September, '71.
4
Q
Could you please tell me a little bit about
5 that discussion?
6
A
I asked him about the food consumption data.
7 I asked him about body weight data, and his response
8 was that if the data is not in the study file, it was
9 never collected.
10
Q
Was Mr. Mike Black in charge then of the
11 or at least in charge of recording the body weight
12 data and the food consumption data?
13
A
He was the technician in charge of the study
14 for a great portion of the study.
15
Q
Did you talk to anybody else in your search
16 of trying to determine or trying to locate the missing
17
data?
18
A
The body weight and food consumption data?
19
Q
Any missing data.
20
A
No. I had to talk and receive permission
21 from the woman that worked in the necropsy lab to look
22
through their files, their study files, for the
23
studies that were close by the Aroclor studies to make
24
sure nothing had been misfiled, and I had to receive
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1 her permission to look in those files.
2
I did not ask her if she personally knew
3 whether there were pages missing from the necropsy lab.
4
Q
Did you talk with anybody else in connection
5 with your search for the missing data?
6
A
No. I thought that pretty well covered
7 everybody that would have a chance to have knowledge of
8 where the data might be or what had happened to it.
9
Q
Are there any kind of scheduling files to
10 determine whether the work was done?
11
A
Some departments kept files and kept records
12 of whether the work was done.
13
Q
Did you check --
14
A
Some didn't.
15
Q
Did you check those files?
16
A
The body weight and food consumption data
17 would not -- it would not show up in those files
18 whether or not that data had been collected.
19
The animal department did not keep those
20 types of records.
21
Q
In connection with the weight data, the food
22 consumption data and mortality data, which you believe
23 was falsified on the --
24
A
Can you speak up? I didn't hear what you
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1 said.
2
Q
You stated that onthes_e three Aroclor
3 reports that we have been discussing, that the weight
4 data, the food consumption data and mortality data was
5 falsified.
6
Do you know whether Monsanto was aware of
7 any of that falsification of data?
8
A
Certainly. Paul Wright was aware of that
9 information when he was an employee of IBT and when he
10 went back to work for Monsanto.
11
Q
Do you have any personal knowledge as to
12 whether Paul Wright communicated any of that
13 falsification of data to anyone at Monsanto Company?
14
A
I have no idea. Paul Wright was employed
15
there, and I don't know what he told anybody else.
16 Paul Wright knew of the falsification.
17
Q
Is there any other basis for your statement
18 that Monsanto knew?
19
A
No.
20
Q
Now, in several of my questions, you had
21 given the answer that you really don't know for sure
22
exactly what specific data was falsified in connection
23
with the food consumption data and the mortality data
24
without a review of the documents themselves.
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1
Do you remember giving answers to those
2 questions?
3
A
What I said with regard to the food
4 consumption data was that the specific pieces of data
5 that were falsified I could not answer, but food
6 consumption data was falsified. Whether it was 7 falsified in every one of the three or just one of the
8 three reports, without going through the raw data I
9 cannot tell you.
10
The food consumption data is just one thing.
11 It is a weight.
12
Q
Do you have any intentions of going in and
13
reviewing that data prior to the trial of this lawsuit?
14
A
I have not discussed reviewing that data
15 with anybody.
16
Q
If you go in and review that data, would you
17
give me a call and, let me know what your conclusions
18 are?
19
A
Certainly.
20
Q
You promise to do that if you undertake such
21 a review?
22
A
Certainly.
23
Q
Has any of plaintiff's counsel asked you to
24 do that review?
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1
A
No.
2
Q
Do you know whether any of the plaintiff's
3 team has hired somebody to undertake that task?
4
A
No, I do not know that.
5
Q
Do you have any personal knowledge as to
6 whether there were any substitution of animals in
7 connection with the two-year oral toxicity study
8 concerning Aroclor 1242, 1254, and 1260?
9
A
Based on my examination of the records of
10 the study, it appears that some substitutions may have
11 taken place.
12
As far as actually having observed somebody
13 take an animal and put it into an Aroclor cage, no.
14
Q
In what records were you referring to that
15 may indicate that there were substitution of animals?
16
A
Study records as far as body weights,
17 histopath log.
18
Q
Do you believe that any substitution of
19 animals in a study would be improper?
20
A
I believe that any substitution of animals
21 into a study that is not properly documented and
22 recorded is improper.
23
Q
Is there any incident where there can be a
24 substitution of animals in a study then?
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1
A
If it's properly documented and recorded
2
that the substitutions did occur, it may not
3 necessarily be the best thing for the study design,
4
but at least whoever is looking at the information
5 generated by the study has that information available
6
to make their own judgment on it.
7
Q
You are aware that substitution of animals
8 is permitted at least in the first part of a two-year
9 study, are you not?
10
A
I'm not sure what you are speaking of.
11 Under current regulations, there is no
the proposed
12 regulations that I have read last did not allow for
13 substitution of animals.
14
Q
I'm talking back in the 1971 time frame.
15
A
In '71, I don't know what the industry-wide
16 standard was for that.
17
Q
Do you have an opinion as to whether the
18 mortality rate in connection with the three Aroclor 19 studies, two-year oral toxicity study with 1242, 1254
20 and 1260, whether the mortality rate was of such a
21 nature that it would invalidate the study?
22
A
I'm not sure I am qualified at this time
23 to answer a question like that.
24
Q
That's fair.
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1
Mr. Smith, do you know where the location of
2 the Aroclor studies was conducted?
3
A
The two-year oral toxicity studies were
4 conducted in Northbrook.
5
Q
Do you know what building they were conducted
6 in?
7
A
I know what building they were conducted in.
8 I don't know what the building number would be that
9 would be attached to the building. There are no
10 visible numbers on the buildings.
11
Q
Were all of the rodents housed in one
12 particular building?
13
A
No.
14
Q
It was housed in several buildings?
15
A
Several buildings, house trailers.
16
Q
Are you familiar with the automatic
17 watering system that was used by IBT?
18
A
I am familiar with several automatic watering
19 systems that they used.
20
Q
Do you know what building that watering
21 system was used in?
22
A
Yes, but other than the rat department, I
23 can't tell you what building number it was. If you had
24 a map of the facilities, I could point to which
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1 building it was.
2
Q
Why don't I let you draw it. Why don%t you
3 draw the layout of the IBT complex.
4
A
This is not to scale (indicating).
5
MR. JONES: I will get our reporter to mark this
6 as an exhibit.
7
(WHEREUPON, said document was marked
8
Smith Deposition Exhibit No. 1, for
9
identification, as of 7/9/87.)
10 BY MR. JONES:
11
Q
Mr. Smith, I'd like to show you what has
12 been marked as Smith Exhibit 1 and ask if that's a
13
drawing that you just drew concerning the campus of
14 IBT?
15
(WHEREUPON, the document was tendered
16
to the witness.)
17
THE WITNESS: A It is a map concerning the
18
Northbrook facilities in the early summer of 1971.
19 BY MR. JONES:
20
Q
Could you indicate there where the Aroclor
21 studies were conducted?
22
A
They were conducted in the rat department
23
in a room in the northeast corner of the building.
24
Q
Why don't you put an "A" there in the box
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1 there that you drew where the Aroclor studies were 2 conducted.
3
A
(Indicating).
4
Q
Was there any automatic watering system or
5 flushing system in the room where the Aroclor studies
6 were conducted?
7
A
No.
8
Q
Can you just generally describe how the
9 animals were housed there? Were they housed in certain
10 cages? Can you just kind of give me an idea of how it
11 was set up there?
12
A
The rats at Northbrook in general or
13
Q
Talking about the Aroclor studies.
14
A
Aroclor studies? There were animals that
15 were in individual rat cages on tiers of racks in the 16 room. I'm not sure other than being in an individual
17 rat cage. Food jar, water bottle, pan with a board
18 underneath to catch the urine and feces.
19
Q
Were the animals individually housed or
20 gang housed or
21
A
To my knowledge, there were not gang housed
22 animals at the time I was employed. I did not know if
23 there were any before that.
24
I believe that from the time I was employed
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1 until the time the study was concluded, there were
2 only individually housed animals.
3
Q
In connection with the Aroclor studies, did
4 you ever have any contact with anyone from Monsanto?
5
MR. NIELSEN: When? He's had contact with
6 Mr. Peck and a bunch of other people.
7 BY MR. JONES:
8
Q
During the time that you worked on the
9 Aroclor studies -- it would be the three studies that
10 we were referring to earlier
11
A
During the --
12
Q
Let's just say this. Prior to this lawsuit -
13 let me just start over again.
14
Have you ever had any contact with anyone
15 from Monsanto prior to this lawsuit?
16
A
Certainly.
17
Q
Who have you had contact with?
18
A
Paul Wright, Lou Sharf, George Levinskas,
19 Bill Hunt.
20
Q
Who else?
21
A
I don't know where you are at in the list.
22
Manny Reyna.
23
Q
Is that all?
24
A
That's all I can remember at the present
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1 time.
2
Q
Now, I'd like to limit that further then.
3
Have you had any contact with anyone from
4 Monsanto in connection with the Aroclor studies prior
5 to the filing of this lawsuit?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
Who have you had contact with?
8
A
Paul Wright.
9
Q
Anyone else?
10
A
I don't believe so.
11
Q
When did you have contact with Paul Wright?
12
A
While he was an employee of ITT.
13
Q
I meant while a Monsanto employee. I didn't
14 mean to say that I was interested in Paul Wright as an
15 ITT employee. I am talking about as a Monsanto
16 employee.
17
A
As a Monsanto employee, no.
18
Q
So yoU haven't had any contact with a
19 Monsanto employee then prior to the filing of this
20 lawsuit other than the time that Paul Wright worked as
21 an ITT employee?
22
A
And the same with -- let me ask you to
23 repeat the question.
24
Q
I will say it. again.
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1
Prior to this lawsuit, you have not had any
2 contact with anybody from Monsanto Company concerning
3 the Aroclor studies?
4
A
That is correct.
5
Q
Has any of the plaintiffs' counsel told you
6 that the deposition of Paul Wright was taken in this
7 case?
8
A
Yes, they have.
9
Q
Did anyone tell you what the outcome of that
10 deposition was?
A
What do you mean by "outcome"?
12
Q
How it went.
13
A
I was told that he took the Fifth Amendment.
14
Q
Who told you that?
15
A
Plaintiff's counsel.
16
Q
Can you name names for me?
17
A
I believe Mr. Nielsen and Mr. Pohl.
18
Q
When did they tell you that?
19
A
Sometime after the date of Paul Wright's
20 deposition.
21
Q
Do you remember how long after the date of
22 the deposition?
23
A
No. All I remember is that they told me
24
they had taken his deposition, and he had taken the
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1 Fifth Amendment.
2
Q
In connection with the Aroclor studies, you
3 don't believe that any data was changed, do you?
4
A
I believe that data was falsified and that
5 conclusions were changed.
6
Q
You don't believe that data was changed,
7 though?
8
A
Once again, without going through the data,
9 I couldn't give you a complete answer on that question.
10
Q
You are going to give me a call if you have
11 that review?
12
A
Yes, sir.
13
Q
You do have my telephone number, don't you?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
In connection with the Aroclor reports, were
16 the originals retained by IBT, or did they forward
17 originals to Monsanto Company?
18
A
I cannot tell you the specific instance of
19 the Aroclor studies. The company procedure was to
20 retain the original report and send Xerox copies.
21
Q
In connection with the. IBT investigation, to
22 your knowledge, did the government ever accuse
23 Monsanto of anything, any wrong doing?
24
A
I don't know what they were accused of doing,
(1/Voffz, .RolEngEty and c:74iiocLatEi, _Una-
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1 but I was told by a government investigator that they
2 had tried to indict Monsanto in connection with the
3
IBT trial.
4
Q
And Monsanto was not indicted?
5
A
To my knowledge, no.
6
Q
You did produce some documents here today.
7
What I'd like to do is get the reporter to
8 mark that as Exhibit No. 2.
9
(WHEREUPON, said document was marked
10
Smith Deposition Exhibit No. 2, for
11
identification, as of 7/9/87.)
12 BY MR. JONES:
13
Q
Now, Mr. Smith, the court reporter has
14 marked as Smith Exhibit No. 2 the documents that you
15 brought here today pursuant to the subpoena, is that
16 correct?
17
A
That is correct.
18
Q
And you said that there were some other
19 documents that you may have that you are still
20 undertaking to search, is that correct?
21
A
That is correct.
22
Q
You have explained why you may have Smith
23 Exhibit No. 2, but is there -- do you have any 24 explanation as to why you believe you may have other
l VI AVA
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1 documents in your possession?
2
A
I don't believe that I have other documents
3 in my possession, but I have got some other boxes of
4 my belongings that I have not been able to finish going
5 through, and I don't really expect to find any more,
6 but there is always a possibility that something might
7
show up.
8
Q
Mr. Smith, what did you do to prepare for
9 this deposition?
10
A
I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by
11 preparing for the deposition.
12
Q
Did you review any documents?
13
A
I didn't review any specific documents for
14 this deposition.
15
Q
Did you talk to anyone?
16
A
I talked to plaintiffs' attorneys.
17
Q
Who is that?
18
A
Mr. Pohl and Mr. Nielsen.
19
Q
Who did you talk to?
20
A
I had dinner with them, last night.
21
Q
How long did you meet with them?
22
A
Well, I was with them during the time it
23
took them to prepare the meal and to consume it, and
24 we spent maybe ten minutes discussing the deposition
WAWA 'WO[/E, .RoiEngEty and ogiiociatEl, _Una.
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1 today.
2
Q
How long did you meet with them, though?
3
A
I would say that it would be less than two
4 hours.
5
Q
What did you discuss in connection with this
6 case to prepare you for your testimony today?
7
A
Simply what the deposition would entail as
8 far as what a discovery deposition was like, and
9 basically the things that I have testified to about
10 Aroclor and these studies.
11
Q
The testimony that you are referring to
12 about Aroclor, is that in connection with your
13 criminal trial?
14
A
No, the testimony that I gave you today.
15
Q
What types of things did you discuss in that
16 regard?
17
A
We discussed the conditions at IBT in the
18
animal department and some of the things that had been
19 falsified and changed in the reports.
20
Q
What did you tell them about the conditions
21 at IBT in the animal department?
22
A
I described to them what the conditions were
23
in the animal department where these studies were run.
24
Q
What were the conditions? And you are
cli/offe, Giolenget,g and c:Asociatel, ilnc.
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1 referring to that 1971 --
2
A
Back in 1971.
3
Q
What were the conditions that you told
4
Mr. Pohl about?
5
A
I told Mr. Pohl about the conditions in the
6
animal rooms where the Aroclor studies were run as far
7
as to how there were loose and wild animals that were
8 in the rooms and chewing the feet off of the animals
9 that were in the cages; of the technicians that were
10
caught burning rats' testicles with lit matches.
11
I described to him the conditions in the
12 swamp where the automatic watering and flushing
13 system that was in there created some different
14
problems.
15
Q
Anything else you discussed about the
16
conditions there at IBT?
17
A
At this moment, I can't recall.
18
Q
Were there, loose and wild animals in the
19 room where the Aroclor studies were conducted?
20
A
Yes, sir.
21
Q
When we say "loose animals," are we referring
22 to laboratory animals?
23
A
Referring both to laboratory animals that
24 escaped from their cages and to wild animals that
VI!IA (11Volfz, .Rolz.ngyz.3. and cAlociatel, ilna. Ctinois (312) 782-8087
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1 entered the laboratory facilities from the outside.
2
Q
On how many occasions did you observe those
3 animals in the laboratory? I'm referring at this time
4 to the laboratory animals.
5
A
How many loose laboratory animals?
6
Q
Yes.
7
A
Occasionally, it comes to the point where
8 it's difficult to tell the difference between loose
9 laboratory animals and loose animals that have been
10 raised outside and gotten in.
11
Q
Let's go ahead since you can't differentiate
12 between --
13
A
There are some differentiations.
14
We generally used all pure white laboratory
15 animals. That didn't mean that an animal that escaped
16 from a study and got outside wouldn't mate with
17
another pure-bred white:laboratory animal and their
18 offspring was pure white and they came back in. That
19 would be wild animals; they are no longer laboratory
20 animals.
21
There were brown-colored mice and rats that
22 weren't part of the genetic strain of what we were
23 using that we would see from the outside that you
24
would know for sure were wild animals from the outside.
VP/A
'Wolfe, cA7osengvEy and cAlociatEl,ilne.
674icago, il iTinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019190
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Q
How many of these loose animals did you see
2 on how many occasions?
3
A
You'd see loose animals in the rat
4 department on a daily basis.
5
Q
How many loose animals did you see for the
6 period up through the time that you wrote the Aroclor
7 reports in the room where the Aroclor studies were
8 conducted?
9
A
We would occasionally have rat and mouse
10 hunts where we would go and kill the loose animals
11 that were around, and we would kill 50 to 60 animals
12 in one of these hunts in half an hour to an hour's
13 worth of time.
14
Q
That is in the room where the Aroclor studies
15 were conducted?
16
A
That is in all of the rooms in the rat
17 department, including the room the Aroclor study was
18 run in
19
Q
20
My question is limited to the Aroclor room. How many times did you see loose animals
21 in that room?
22
A
Generally, most every time I was in that
23
room.
74
How many animals did you see, though?
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1
A
There would be several animals that you would
9 see. When you'd see loose animals, you'd see --
3 sometimes you'd see one; sometimes you'd see six or
4
eight.
5
MR. POHL: If you didn't count the animals, you
6 might just say there were several or that there were
no specific --
8
THE WITNESS:
I didn't specifically count the
9 animals in the Aroclor room every time that I saw
10 loose animals in there.
11 BY MR. JONES:
12
Q
But you'd see loose animals then about every
13 time you went to the Aroclor room?
14
A
On an average, the majority of the time when
15 I went into the Aroclor room.
16
Q
This would have been during the time that
17
you were working in the animal room itself up until
18 the time that you became a report writer?
19
A
Whenever I had reason to go into that room,
20
yes.
21
Q
But you can't give me a number then of how
22 many animals you saw loose there in the room, in the
23 Aroclor room?
24
MR. POHL: He just answered that.
AWMA ( WorfE, cRosEngvcg and cAs.ociatEl, il ne.
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48B
1
THE WITNESS:
I never specifically counted how
2 many loose'rats were in there.
3 BY MR. JONES:
4
Q
Did you observe in the Aroclor room that
5 some of the animals had their feet chewed off?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
On how many occasions did you observe that?
8
A
Several. I can't answer a specific number.
9
Q
Happened quite often?
10
A
It was a problem in the whole department,
11 including the room the Aroclor studies were in, except
12 for the swamp. The animals in the swamp generally
13 did not wind up getting their feet chewed off.
14
Q
Why is that?
15
A
For whatever reason, the loose animals
16 avoided that room.
17
Q
You also said that you observed some of the
18 animal technicians buining the testes of the laboratory
19 animals?
20
A
Yes, sir.
21
Q
Was that in connection with the Aroclor
22 studies?
23
MR. POHL: Did they do that as part of the
24 Aroclor studies?
,,l!IA. <Wof{E., cl?o!J.E.nbe and. cll-uociate, [}nc.
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MONSPCB0019193
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1
BY MR. JONES:
2
Q
Was that done to the animals housed in the
3 Aroclor room?
4
A
It was done to some of the animals housed
5
in the Aroclor room.
6
Q
How often did that occur?
7
A
Once.
8
Q
Who did that?
9
A
One of the animal department technicians.
10
Q
What was his name?
11
A
Walter Perkins.
12
Q
What happened to Walter?
13
A
Walter got dismissed.
14
Q
That was something that wasn't tolerated,
15 then, at IBT?
16
A
No. I don't know if he got dismissed for
17 that. There were a number of problems with Walter
18 Perkins. That was one of several.
19
Q
What other things did you and Mr. Pohl and
20 Mr. Nielsen talk about in prepation for this
21 deposition?
22
A
Not much. We had dinner and told a few
23 jokes.
24
Q
Did either Mr. Nielsen or Mr. Pohl tell you
( WogE, GRo1lnb'Cy and c..1qi.ioci.atEi., Linc.
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MONSPCB0019194
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1 about the facts of the case as they saw it?
2
A
Other than to tell me that they're
3 representing people that are suing Monsanto to recover 4 damages for being exposed to a material that Monsanto
5 manufactured, no.
6
Q
They didn't tell you what the facts of the
7 lawsuit was or what that involved over what you have
8 just told me right here?
9
A
I believe that's true, yes.
10
Q
Did they tell you about the theories of the
11 case as they saw it?
12
A
No.
13
Q
Mr. Smith, when was the first time that you
14 were contacted by plaintiffs' counsel or anyone from
15 their offices concerning this case?
16
A
I'm not real sure. Sometime this year.
17
Q
Can you give me some month, to the best of
18 your ability?
19
A
To the best of my ability, before May of
20 this year.
21
Q
How many times have you talked to plaintiffs'
22 counsel then or someone from their office?
23
A
Five times.
24
Q
Would that all have been since the first of
VVRIA ( 11VorfE, cRolEngEty and cAllociatEl, Dna.
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MONSPCB0019195
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1 this year then?
2
A
Yes. I met with them five times in person.
3
Q
You also talked to them on the telephone?
4
A
Yes, a few times.
5
Q
Let's take the first time that you met them,
6 and tell me where you met them at.
7
A
They came out to my house to visit with me,
8 like Mr. Peck did.
9
MR. POHL: Just happened to be in the
10 neighborhood.
11
THE WITNESS: They called ahead of time before
12 they came to visit me. 13 BY MR. JONES:
14
Q
Who came to meet with you on that occasion?
15
A
Mr. Pohl and Mr. Nielsen.
16
Q
How long did that meeting take place?
17
A
I'm not sure. Several hours. I didn't time
18
19
Q
Less than five hours?
20
A
I would say less than five hours.
21
Q
About half a day maybe?
22
A
I don't know. I didn't time it. I didn't
23 pay attention.
24
Q
I know you didn't time it, but did you meet
MYRA (WoffE, GRo1EngEZQ and c liociatEl gnc.
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1 them in the morning?
2
A
I think they arrived late morning and left
3 early to middle afternoon. It would have probably 4 been -- like I say, I didn't time it. I didn't pay any
5 attention.
6
Q
What did you all discuss at that time?
7
A
We discussed IBT and their procedures and
8 the Aroclor studies that were conducted by IBT for
9 Monsanto.
10
Q
Did you tell them anything different from
11 what you have testified to?
12
A
No, I did not.
13
Q
Was there any additional things discussed
14 other than what was discussed today?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
What additional things did you discuss?
17
A
We discussed a little more thoroughly what
18 the conditions were in the animal rooms, as far as
19 what the conditions were in the swamp and what the
20 conditions were in the room where the Aroclor studies
21 were run in and the fact that really the only
22
difference between those two rooms and what was done
23 was the fact that there was automatic watering and
24 flushing systems in the swamp.
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( Woriz, cRolEngElg and c ''qlsoccatEl ,
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1
Otherwise, the animals that were in the
2
Aroclor room were exposed to loose -- more loose
3 animals chewing on their feet and the fact that study
4 conditions were such that there were more decaying
5 animals in the Aroclor room than there were in the
6 swamp.
7
Because of temperature differences and
8 stuff and the fact that the person running the Aroclor
9 study did not watch his studies quite as close as he
10 should have, animals would ooze through the bottom of
11 their cages, and all their tissues would be a total
12 lose for any pathology work.
13
Q
Was there any flooding in the Aroclor room,
14 or was that limited to the swamp?
15
A
The swamp flooded regularly. Whether or not
16 an occasional bit of water that flooded the swamp got 17 into the Aroclor room, I do not recollect.
18
There were occasions where the swamp
19 flooded so bad that some water got into adjacent rooms.
20
Q
Was it more humid in the swamp -- is that a
21 room, too, in the building?
22
A
I'd have to see the diagram.
23
Q
Where is the swamp in relation to the
24 Aroclor room?
W AWA ( WoffE, cRosEntvE9 and SillociatEs, _Una.
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1
A
It is right across the hallway from the
2 Aroclor room.
3
Q
And in regard to the humidity, was the
4 humidity higher in the Aroclor room or the swamp?
5
A
Humidity was generally higher in the swamp.
6
Q
Did the Aroclor room have any more humidity
7 than any of the other rooms other than the swamp in
8 the building?
9
A
I don't believe so.
10
Q
You said that there were more decaying
11 animals in the Aroclor studies and that there were
12 some oozing of the animals through the cages.
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
How often did you observe that? ,
15
A
At least once a week. I regularly received
16 complaints from the head animal caretaker about the
17
technician that was running the Aroclor study for not
18
only the Aroclor study but several others he was
19
running, that there were many dead animals that were
20
stinking so bad that his caretaker did not want to go
21 into the room to change the water bottles.
22
Q
Was the technician in charge of the Aroclor
23
study -- was that Michael Black?
24
A
Yes.
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1
Q
How many animals did you observe specifically
2 in number, if you can remember, that had oozed from
3 the bottom of the cages in the Aroclor room?
4
A
I do not remember a specific number.
5 remember seeing animals in the room that had oozed
6 through. I remember seeing Mr. Black carrying cages
7 from those studies out to the dumpsters with animals
8 that were oozing through the bottom.
9
Q
My question is how many. I don't believe
10 you were responsive.
11
A
I said I can't give you a number figure.
12
Q
You can't give me a range at all?
13
A
I can't give you a number figure.
14
Q
Less than ten?
15
A
At any given time, certainly less than ten.
16 For the entire time I. was employed at Bio-Test while
17 the study was just running, I can't give you a total
18 number.
19
Q
How many Aroclor studies were going on in
20 the Aroclor room during the 19/1 time frame?
21
A
There was one study with three -- one study
22 number with three different Aroclor materials in that
23 room.
24
I do not know if the reproduction study was
("Woirt., .1i)ost.ntei..9 and c:741.s.ociatei, _enc.
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MONSPCB0019200
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1 still running in the department or not.
Q
This first meeting with Mr. Pohl and
3 Mr. Nielsen, did you discuss anything else in
4 addition to what we have discussed today?
5
A
Not that I can recall at the moment.
6
Q
Did they show you any documents?
7
A
I believe they had a copy of the final
8 Aroclor report. Whether it was the revised one or
9 not, I don't know.
10
Q
Did they show you any other documents?
11
A
Not that I recall.
12
Q
When was the second time that you met with
13 someone from the plaintiffs' counsel's offices?
14
A
Late May.
15
Q
Who did you meet with?
16
A
Mr. Pohl and Mr. Nielsen.
17
Q
Where did you meet?
18
A
In Houston at their offices.
19
Q
Did they pay your expenses for going down
20 there?
21
A
They paid for my air fare down and my hotel
22 room while I was down there.
23
Q
Did they pay you anything else?
24
A
No.
%VL'IA
and ( VVo(fe, GRO112gVt9
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MONSPCB0019201
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1
Q
How long did you meet with them?
2
A
I met with them for a couple hours on a
3 Saturday and for maybe three or four hours on a
4
Sunday.
5
Q
Did you look at documents then?
6
A
Yes, I did.
7
Q
What did you review?
8
A
I was looking at Xerox copies of old IBT
9 records.
10
Q
What records in particular did you look at?
11
A
Looking through the IBT project center file
12 records and correspondence file and project center
13
file records, and I'm not sure whether there were any
14
there were things that were. 7-- that I was looking at
15
that were labeled animal department records and they
16
weren.'t.
17
Q
Did you, look at raw data concerning the
18
Aroclor studies?
19
A
I saw one or two pages of it. Not anything
20
complete.
21
Q
Is that the best description then that you
22
can tell me of the documents that you looked at?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
What did you discuss on that occasion?
(11Votiz, cRoszntz.7.9 and ogsiociatzl
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MONSPCB0019202
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258
1
A
We discussed Bio-Test conditions and the
2 records and what happened during the Aroclor study.
3
Q
Did you tell them anything different than
4 what you told them in the first meeting that you had
5 with them?
6
A
No.
7
Q
Just rehashed old news?
8
A
No. We discussed problems involved with the
9 studies and what was falsified in them.
10
Q
Did you discuss anything in addition to what
11 you have already testified to concerning the
12 falsification of data?
13
A
No, sir.
14
Q
Did they pay for your return trip?
15
A
Yes, sir.
16
Q
When was the first time that you met with
17 anyone from plaintiffs' counsel's office?
18
A
About a week and a, half. ago.
19
Q
Is that the last part of June?
20
A
Yes, sir.
21
Q
What day would that have been? Was it a
22 weekend or weekday?
23
A
I couldn't say.
24
Q
Did you have to miss work in order to go?
WZI A
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1
A
It was the evening.
2
Q
Was it here in Illinois, or was it in
3 Houston?
4
A
Here in Illinois.
5
Q
Who did you meet with?
6
A
Mr. Nielsen.
7
Q
Mr. Pohl wasn't there?
8
A
No, sir.
9
Q
In connection with the time that you met
10 with Mr. Nielsen about a week and a half ago, was it
1'1 before the date that the deposition was scheduled on
12 June 29, or was it after that date?
13
A
I just don't recall whether it was before or
14 after.
15
Q
This was a week. and a half ago?
16
A
I believe it was the week before the
17 scheduled date of the other deposition, but I can't
18 be sure.
19
MR. POHL: If you don't recall, say you don't
20 recall.
21 BY THE WITNESS:
22
A
I don't recall.
23 BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
In connection with the scheduled deposition
( WoffE, c_RolEngEts and C:411.OCiatEl,
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1 that was to take place on the 29th of June, did you
2. talk with Mr. Pohl or Mr. Nielsen or anyone from
3 their offices concerning that deposition?
4
A
Just as far as the fact that I had been
5 served with a subpoena on that date, and I requested
6 you to change the date for me.
7
Q
Did Mr. Pohl or Mr. Nielsen or anyone from
8 their office ask that you change that date?
9
A
No, they did not.
10
Q
That was a request on your part?
A
Yes.
12
Q
And you made that telephone call to them, or
13 did they make that call to you?
14
A
I don't recall.
15
Q
Now, in this third meeting that you had with
16 Mr. Nielsen about a week and a half ago, did
17 Mr. Nielsen bring you any documents to look at?
18
A
No.
19
How long did the meeting with Mr. Nielsen
20 last?
21
A
Approximately two, two and a half hours
22 while we were having dinner.
23
Q
This was the evening at your house?
24
A
This was in the evening at a restaurant
W IAIIA grafi
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1 where we went to have dinner.
2
Q
What did you discuss?
3
A
Same things, the conditions at IBT and the
4 problems with the Aroclor studies, how the Astros were 5 doing, how the Cubs were doing, how my dogs were and
6 the terrible weather.
7
Q
Did you discuss anything in addition
8 concerning the Aroclor studies to what we have already
9 discussed today?
10
A
No.
11
Q
Just rehashing the same old thing?
12
A
We discussed the same things.
13
Q
On the fourth meeting, when did that take
14 place?
15
A
Monday or Tuesday. Monday night of this
16 week, I believe.
17
Q
So that would have been around the 6th of
18
July?
19
A
20
Q
21
6th or 7th, whatever Monday's date was. I may have been wrong. I don't know. Who was present at that meeting?
22
A
Mr. Nielsen.
23
Q
Where did that take place?
24
A
It took place at a restaurant in Northbrook.
ViVRATA (11Voriz, cRolEntvrA3 and o fillociatEl, Dna.
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1
Q
What was the reason for going to Northbrook?
2
A
That's where we decided to meet and have
3 dinner and chat.
4
Q
Did you go by the old IBT facilities?
5
A
No, I did not.
6
Q
Do you know if Mr. Nielsen did?
7
A
I do not know whether Mr. Nielsen did or not.
8
Q
How long did you meet with Mr. Nielsen on
9 that occasion?
10
A
Probably two and a half hours while we ate
dinner.
12
Q
Were you shown any documents?
13,
A
Not that I recall.
14
Q
What did you discuss?
15
A
The conditions at IBT and the Aroclor
16 studies and the falsification of them.
17
Q
Was Mr. Nielsen having a hard time getting
18 it straight?
19
A
I wouldn't know.
20
MR. NIELSEN: We got it straight.
21 BY MR. JONES:
22
Q
The fifth meeting, when did you meet with
23 them?
24
A
Last night, as we discussed earlier.
%V IA ( WoriE, cJPosengz,t9 and clhloctatEl,
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1
We covered that meeting already?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Other than those five occasions, have you
4 met with anyone of the plaintiffs' counsel or their
5 office other than on those occasions?
6
A
No.
7
Q
With regard to telephone calls, how many
8 telephone calls have you received from plaintiffs'
9 counsel or anyone from their office?
10
A
I don't recall a specific number.
11
Q
Can you give me just a range? Less than ten?
12
A
I don't recall a specific number.
13
Q
Was it a lot? Several calls?
14
A
I don't recall a specific number.
15
Q
More than one, though?
16
A
More than one.
17
Q
In connection with any of the meetings that
18 you have had with plaintiffs' counsel, did you ever
19 write anything down and give it to them?
20
A
No, sir, I did not. I am sorry. I did.
21 I drew a map very similar to this Smith Exhibit 1 to
22 the deposition.
23
Q
Did they ever give you any documents to keep,
24 to look at?
Wr
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64B S
1
A
What kind of documents?
2
Q
Well, whatever documents they gave you, if
3 they did. I don't know. Perhaps you can tell me.
4
A
I received no IBT documents from them to
5 look at.
6
Q
What did you receive from them to look at?
7
A
I received a deposition -- a couple of
8 depositions to read.
9
Q
What depositions were those?
10
A
Dr. Levinskas', Dr. Keplinger's and
11 Dr. Reyna's.
12
Q
When did you receive those depositions?
13
A
After the time that the depositions had been
14 taken.
15
Q
16
A
Did you receive them all at the same time? No, after the time that the deposition
17 was taken.
18
Q
As soon as the deposition was taken and
19 transcribed, then you would get a copy of the
20 deposition?
21
A
I don't know whether I would get it as soon
22
as it had been taken and transcribed. It was sometime
23
after the deposition was taken I received a copy to
24
look at.
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1
Q
Was there any reason for sending just these
2 depositions?
3
A
I wouldn't know what their reasons were in
4 sending just those.
5
Q
Did you review those depositions?
6
A
I have read parts of some of them, yes.
7
Q
Were there particular parts indicated for
8 you to read?
9
A
No, sir.
10
Q
Just that you skimmed parts of it, is that
1.1 what you are saying?
12
A
I haven't finished reading some of them.
13
Q
Have you finished reading any of them?
14
A
Yes, sir.
15
Q
Which ones have you finished reading?
16
A
Mr. Reyna's.
17
Q
Is that all?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Did they give you anything else, any other
20 documents other than these depositions?
21
A
No, sir, not that I recall.
22
Q
Why were you sent these depositions?
23
A
I wouldn't know.
24
Q
Were you asked to review them?
WAWA
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1
A
Specifically, no.
2
Q
They just appeared in the mail, and you just
3 decided to read them, is that what you are saying?
4
A
Some did. Some I was told that the
5 deposition would be arriving, and nobody said
6 specifically to read them or to review them.
7
Q
Had there been any discussion as to whether
8 you were going to look at any other depositions in the
9 future other than your deposition today?
10
A
No.
11
Q
Did any of plaintiffs' counsel show you any
12 notes written by them?
13
A
No, sir.
14
Q
Have you got any oral or written agreement
15 regarding payment of any money to you in connection
16 with this case?
17
A
I have no oral or written agreement as far
18 as paying money to me in the case other than
19 reimbursing direct expenses. It hasn't even really
20 been an oral or written agreement.
21
Q
Have they agreed to pay you a fee or
22 anything of that nature?
23
A
They haven't offered me a fee in testifying
24 in the case, and I haven't asked for one.
MVI A
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MONSPCB0019211
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1
Q
Have they offered to pay you lost time or
2 anything of that nature from your work?
3
A
No, sir.
4
Q
Are you going to intend to ask Mr. Pohl for
5 some money?
6
A
For today?
7
Q
For your lost time or anything of that
8 nature.
9
A
We haven't discussed it.
10
Q
Have you been promised any reward or any
11 larger payment of money or anything if the plaintiffs
12 are successful in this case?
13
A
No, sir, I have not.
14
Q
Do you intend to testify at trial on
15 August 25th when it begins? Not necessarily that date
16 but at trial?
17
A
I have no idea.
18
Q
Will you be able to testify for trial?
19
A
I would be available to testify, yes.
20
Q
Mr. Pohl has not asked you to testify at
21 trial live?
22
A
He has not asked. Nobody from Mr. Pohl's
23 office has asked me whether -- or asked me
24 specifically if I will testify.
( /1/Of1E, GROlEngElg and c_igisociatEs, C/ ago, gftinoil (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019212
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1
Q
Prior to talking with anyone in this case,
2 that being either from the-plaintiffs' side or the
3 defense side, did you contact your attorney to
4 determine whether your immunity would apply to cover
5 the Aroclor studies?
6
A
I did not contact my attorney prior to being
7 contacted by the plaintiff, and I discussed the case
8
with one of my attorneys prior to Mr. Peck visiting me.
9
Q
What's the name of that attorney?
10
A
Mr. Charles E. Mallon. We didn't
it
specifically discuss the personal liability in the
12 case that Mr. Peck asked me about. My attorney for
13
the 305 hearing had indicated that based on the grant
14
of immunity, that I could talk to anybody concerning
15
Illy total employment at IBT.
16
Q
He told you that way back --
17
A
Yes, sir.
18
Q
-- at the time of the 305 hearing?
19
A
After the 305 hearing.
20
Q
When after the 305 hearing?
21
A
At the point when the Justice Department
22
gave me a grant of immunity.
23
Q
Do you have the document that reflects
24
your immunity from prosecution?
WRIA
and , ;7'q ( WOrfE, GROiEngE7.9
aicago, CCinois (312) 782-8087
, gnc. MONSPCRnn1Q71
269
A
I believe I have it somewhere, yes.
2
Q
Would you mind making a copy of it and.
3
sending it to me in the mail?
4
A
Not at all.
5
Q
Would you agree to do that?
6
A
Certainly.
7
Q
You discussed it with Mr. Mallon.
8
How far prior to the time that you talked
9 with Mr. Peck did you meet with Mr. Mallon to discuss
10
the immunity with him?
11
A
As I said before, I didn't specifically
12 discuss the immunity with him or the liability
13 involved with speaking about PCBs.
14
MR. POHL: Let me interrupt you. I know that
15 Mr. Jones wouldn't want to tread upon your
16
attorney/client relationship with your lawyer; and. to
17
the extent that
his question doesn't ask you this,
18 but as an attorney for one of the parties to this
19 case, that is the plaintiffs, I would advise you that
20
you have a privilege as to your discussions with your
21 own lawyer, Mr. Mallon, and that I'm sure that he
22
doesn't want to violate that privilege.
23
BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Did you pay Mr. Mallon a fee?
(1/VoffE, -1?c,5.EnGE.r.5 and cillociatEl, gna.
C4icago, nritzois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019214
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1
A
No, I did not.
2
Did you hire hith then when you discussed
3
these matters with him?
4
A
No, I did not.
5
Q
Then tell me exactly what you did discuss?
6
MR. NIELSEN: Wait a second. Is he your personal
7 attorney? Do you have a continuing relationship with 8 him?
9
THE WITNESS: I have a relationship with M
10 Mallon. He is representing me in some real estate
11 deals. He is an old friend of the family.
12
I don't think that my discussions with my
13 attorney are something that I should discuss.
14
MR. POHL: You have a right not to. As I
15 indicated a moment ago, there is an attorney/client 16 privilege that attaches to the private discussions 17 between you and your lawyer, and it's irrelevant as
18 to who pays his fees any way.
19
So if you don't want to answer those
20 questions, you don't have to. I'd be very much
21 surprised if they would even want to inquire into your
22 privileged discussions with your own lawyer.
23 BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Have you ever told anyone about -- have you
`Vi
IA
' VVOLfE, G/?O1E12gE'r.g and oqi.s.ocatEl, ilnc.
egicayo, .inois (312)782-8087
MONSPCB0019215
271
1 talked with anyone about what you discussed with
2 Mr. Mallon?
3
A
No.
4
Q
You haven't had any conversations or told
5 anyone about what you and Mr. Mallon discussed then?
6
A
What Mr. Mallon and I discussed was between
7 Mr. Mallon and I on a legal basis.
8
Q
I understand that.
9
A
That' was between the two of us.
10
Q
But you didn't tell me -- did you tell
11 anybody what the substance of that conversation was?
12
A
No. I discussed it with Mr. Mallon.
13
Q
Did you voluntarily meet with Mr. Peck on
14 the day that you talked with him?
15
A
Yes, I did.
16
Q
Had you received several calls prior to
17 that in an attempt to try to talk with him?
18
A
Mr. Peck had called several times when I was
19 out, and I was unable to return his call prior to the
20 four or five days until later when he showed up at my
21 doorstep while he was passing through the neighborhood,
22 and I agreed to sit down and speak to him when he came
23 to the door.
24
Q
But you had not returned any of his calls
vkviiiA ( wog., cRolEngEty and cAlsociatEl, _enc.
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MONSPCB0019216
272
1 prior to that time?
2
A
I had not been able to get through to him.
3
Q
Did you try to call him?
4
A
Yes, one time.
5
As I explained to him, my brother was in
6 own visiting, and I was not home until very late at
7 night.
8
Q
Is that the message that you left when you - --
9
A
I didn't get ahold of anybody at Mr. Peck's
10 office.
II
Q
What time of night was it that you made that
12 call?
13
A
It was approximately 10:00, 10:30.
14
Q
At night?
15
A
Yes. It was about the same --
16
MR. POHL: You have answered the question.
17
MR. JONES: Are you representing Mr. Smith,
18 Mr. Pohl?
19
I don't want Mr. Pohl to cut you off. If
20 you have something to say, go ahead and say it.
21
THE WITNESS: No. Go ahead.
22 BY MR. JONES:
23
Q
You are going to cut it off?
24
A
Certainly.
WL'IA
and ( 171/04 -E, GROlEtZgElg grrinoi (312) 782-8087
_One.
MONSPCB0019217
273
1
Q
Have you taken a polygraph examination?
2
A
No, I have not.
3
Q
Have you ever been involved in any production
4 of any type of videos in connection with this case?
5
A
No, I have not.
6
Q
Do you have any knowledge that any videos
7 will be taken at a subsequent day?
8
A
I'm not sure I understand your question.
9
Q
Well, there hasn't been any discussion of
10 videos.
1.1
I am sure that you would know about that,
12 right?
13
A
14
Q
15
A
What is that, the videos? I assume that's what we are talking about. Videos that are involved with the case?
16 Videos that I am involved in?
17
Q
That's what the question was.
18
The followup question -- you don't want me
19 to be specific every time I ask a question?
20
A
I am sorry, but I didn't hear that part of
21 your question or understand it.
22
Q
To your knowledge, has anybody discussed
23
with you the fact that there will be any videos taken
24
at a subsequent date in connection with this case?
lek7P.AFA (Wo1'1E, ...k:o5.EngET.43 and c:45.iocLatEi gric
aicago, Mfg:nail (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019218
74B
274
1
A
I have no idea what their intentions are.
2
Q
I didn't ask that.
3
I just asked if anybody has discussed that
4 with you?
5
A
I was not finished with my answer, but I am
6 saying that I do not know what their intentions are
7 with regard to videos in the case.
8
Q
Just answer the question and we can get out
9 a lot quicker.
10
A
That's what I'm trying to do. I'm not going
to answer a question that is too general.
12
Q
I'm not asking you to.
13
MR. POHL: We have not discussed videos of any
14
type.
15
MR. JONES: Will you stipulate to that?
16
MR. POHL: Yes. The only one I have discussed
17
that with is you with regard to this deposition.
18 BY MR. JONES:
19
Q
During the time that you worked for IBT up
20 until the end of 1971, did you observe as to how they
21 kept their records? In other words, were they good
22
recordkeepers, bad recordkeepers or what?
23
A
I didn't hear the very first part of your
24
question. I will ask the reporter to repeat it.
VIYL I /A ` VVoLfE, CRo1En&EZQ and c-7111.ociatzl, gnc.
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1
Q
I will say it again.
2
During the end of 1971, that time period,
3
you had the opportunity to observe how IBT kept their
4 records, did you not?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Did you observe whether they were good
7 recordkeepers or bad recordkeepers?
8
MR. POHL: I think I know what you are getting at,
9 but it's confusing in this way. We spent hours
10 talking about recordkeeping in terms of missing data
11 and falsification.
12
What I think you're probably getting at is
13 recordkeeping in terms of how they organized their
14 correspondence files or how they put little pieces of
15 paper in a file folder, is that right?
16
MR. JONES: No.
17 BY MR. JONES:
18
Q
Generally, did you find them to be good
19 recordkeepers or bad recordkeepers?
20
MR. POHL: If you know, or compared to what.
21
THE WITNESS: A I just don't know what to compare
22 it to.
23 BY MR. JONES:
24
Q
Did they keep records as well as you would
let 7PIA
( WoffE, cRolEngEts and olislociatEs , il ne
C4ienyo, il ftinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019220
276
1 have kept them?
2
A
They were, in general, good recordkeepers.
3 The problem that the company wasn't the fact that they 4 kept what they did collect. They didn't always collect
5 what they were supposed to.
6
That's where my hangup is.
7
MR. POHL: That's the point I was making.
8
THE WITNESS: Some departments were better at
9 keeping records, but in general they did a good job of
10 keeping what they did collect. The problem was not
1,1 collecting data they were supposed to.
12 BY MR. JONES:
13
Q
They were good recordkeepers then?
14
A
They were reasonably.
15
MR. JONES: Pass the witness.
16
MR. POHL: No questions.
17
FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
( Worft, cRoszngvuy and ClisioeialEi ) _arta. aicayo, girt:nail (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019221
278
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS: 2 COUNTY OF C 0 0 K )
3
I, NANCY BRUNER PARKS, a Notary Public within
4 and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, do hereby
6 certify:
7
That previous to the commencement of the
8 examination of the witness, PHILIP S. SMITH, he was
9 first duly sworn to testify the whole truth concerning
10 the matters herein;
1.1
That the foregoing deposition transcript
12 was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
13 reduced to typewriting under my personal direction,
14 and constitutes a true record of the testimony given
15 and the proceedings had;
16
That the said deposition was taken before
17 me at the time and place specified;
18
That the reading and signing by the witness
19 of the deposition transcript was not waived;
20
That I am not a relative or employee or
21 attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
22
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties hereto,
23
nor interested directly or indirectly in the outcome
24 of this action.
1017IIA
( 4 /4E, ..i?(DI.EngEts and clissociatzs, _One.
aicago, griirzois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019222
Z / 9
1
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my
2 hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago, Illinois,
3 this /6ik day of
, 1987.
4
5
6
.tt
Notary Pubic, Cook County, Illinois.
7
My commission expires March 11, 1988.
8
9 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2313.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 19
20
21
23 24
VIIA ( WoriE, cl?olEntztg and c:411.0aLatEl, fine.
efiicayo, grrinois (312) 782-8087
MONSPCB0019223
